Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36181566)

The obvious way forward is to be a polite misogynist.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36181567)

Or just claim to be a woman while doing it.

Hell they’ll even give you a gold medal for punching a few in the face.

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 36181577)

Stop talking rubbish. She is a female boxer and always has been female.

Honestly :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36181580)

Yeah … no. Not really. You need to stop swallowing trans rights kool aid so uncritically.

It speaks volumes that the TRA have casually exploited this boxer by raising strawman arguments and deliberately misusing language in ways designed to undermine ‘female’ as a simple, clear biological category.

There is more than enough evidence in the public domain to conclude that Imane Khelif has XY chromosomes with a disorder of sexual development that results in internal testes and, critically as far as sport goes, male puberty.

There is evidence that the IOC *knew* this before the competition began and therefore they knowingly allowed someone with male physical advantage to beat up female competitors in the ring and steal the gold medal from an actual female boxer.

Khelif’s DSD quite probably did lead to an incorrect observation of sex as female at birth, leading to ‘her’ being raised as a girl. Frankly if Khelif wishes to live private life as a woman then that’s none of anyone else’s business. In this case, in particular, it isn’t even a ‘trans rights’ issue, although some similar issues are raised. The line, however, comes when the very reason female sporting categories exist is crossed in the name of ‘inclusion’. Female sporting categories exist because it is the only way of ensuring inclusion of women in physical sports they could never win if they were compelled to compete only in a male or ‘open’ category.

The IOC however seems to have become fixated on making a political statement and whatever it knew about Khelif’s physiology, it had determined it was not going to use any such information in determining qualification for the female category. The only qualification the IOC seemed interested in was what was stamped in a passport - an obvious nonsense given the number of countries that now make it increasingly easy for men to create the legal fiction that they are women.

Sex is binary and immutable, and while people may have rights to dress and act however they choose in a liberal democracy, that right does not extend to stealing the rights and opportunities of others. Someone with a disorder of sexual development deserves compassion and support but not to the extent that they are allowed to exercise unfair advantage in sport. The IOC ought to have behaved very differently and ought to be ashamed.

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 36181581)

Yet an athlete that took part in the game raped a 12 yr old and there was hardly any outrsge over that

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 36181581)

Not to mention in her home country it is illegal to be gay or trans.

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 36181581)

She was born and raised female, her family photos clearly show a little girl.

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 36181581)

This has nothing to doing with drinking any kool aid as you put it just looking at the info out there and not falling for all the false allegations and hysteria over her.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36181589)

However, that compassion does not extend to creating an unfair and possibly dangerous environment for actual female boxers in competitions.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36181589)

And yet even the IOC had to delete a statement in which it insisted this was ‘not a DSD issue’ (Disoerder of Sexual Development) and reissue it saying it is not a ‘trans’ issue (which nobody had in fact claimed). The IOC has seen the evidence, and enough of it has become public by now. The info is out there and is plain to see, for those who aren’t ensnared by trans ideology.



Are we really doing this :dozey: ok, fine, point by point. And the above is what we in Scotland call whitabootery. Irrelevant to the question of Khelif’s eligibility to box in the female category.



It is entirely possible for a bad actor to discredit their opponent by issuing facts. Yes, the Russians are proper, moustache-twirling evil. That doesn’t make Khelif an XX biological female. The published evidence says that, whatever their motives, the the WBA is telling the truth. It would be a really stupid lie because their test results exist, the IOC has seen them, Khelif’s team has seen them, and simply publishing the initial cheek swab would have been enough to disprove the WBA, had that swab rendered an XX result.



You’re struggling now.

The normal ranges for female and male testosterone do not overlap. Not by a country mile. Females do not, ever, have ‘raised’ testosterone to the level where it is comparable to even the most testosterone-deficient male, except where serious pathology is at issue. The serious pathology in Khelif’s case is that this individual has XY chromosomes and a disorder of sexual development meaning internal testes are present. These have caused male puberty and male testosterone levels.



The issue is not whether Khelif is the most powerful person in any given boxing competition; it is whether it is fair for Khelif to compete.

Nicola Adams could beat me to a pulp in a boxing ring. It doesn’t make me a woman, or her a man.



Nobody has claimed Khelif is gay.
Nobody has claimed Khelif is trans.
These are strawman arguments, as you well know.

It is quite common for an individual with XY chromosomes and certain DSDs to be incorrectly observed at birth and recorded female, especially in developing nations where medical staff may lack experience of rarer conditions. It is then typical for such individuals to be raised as a girl because, until male puberty kicks in, there is no reason to think anything else. Be in no doubt, however, that Khelif, Khelif’s family, and the Algerian Olympic team, all now know exactly what's going on.

Khelif deserves compassion and understanding for what must have been a traumatic adolescence. However, that compassion does not extend to creating an unfair and possibly dangerous environment for actual female boxers in competitions.

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36181599)

I think some of the confusion arises because the IBA haven’t specified what the criteria were which she was banned, and in somewhat unusual circumstances.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...73988ffc9005db

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36181599)

I think some of the confusion arises because the IBA haven’t specified what the criteria were which she was banned, and in somewhat unusual circumstances.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...73988ffc9005db

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 36181602)

Exactly. Protecting their 'perfect' Russian. I honestly doubt there is more to it than is plainly obvious.

Many have just been making things up or believing what they read on social media without all facts and information.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36181603)

Hi, instead of jumping on a post you agree with just to agree with it, I’d love it if you could have a go at answering some of the details I provided you above.

If you’re unable, not to worry. It just that it looks to me very much as if you copy/pasted a ton of stuff from TRA Xitter without attempting any critical understanding of it. Which would be a shame.