lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

the liberal democrats have vowed to scrap the council tax and have made it a policy pledge to voters......

instead a local income tax would replace the current system, which promises a 'fairer' balance in funds distribution......


source: BBC news

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3552455.stm

i would need a serious breakdown of 'real' financial stats to show me if it would be worth the axe, or will we see even higher rates ?

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

Where would they replace the lost revenue from? the only way to replace the council tax would be to increase other taxes. So its actually a bit of a joke if you look at it that way.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

the 'local income tax' is the scheme which would replace it.........

instead of funds being distributed by government, the local council would take care of the distrobution in key areas that need it........

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

yes right :disturbd: now we know its coming up to an election :shocked: and people still fall for it

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

aha - 18 & not in full time education, suddenly you have to either pay, or claim an exemption ;)

who pays to administer these 'local taxes', Kronas? - why do we need an extra tier of organisation, like 'Yorkshire Forward'? :)

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

To be honest who cares what the Lib Dems want to do, they will not win at the election so they could say anything IMO and it would not make a difference :)

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

dont they all do that,say wat they like then backtrack

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

So some nutty "spend ... spend ... spend ... " council would be in charge . sounds like a brilliant scheme .... :erm:

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

and wat happens when the money runs out :Yikes:

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

Hmm, so nobody saw the BC2 Programme "If" last Wednesday, which mooted exactly the same idea, but the scenario was in 2014 a Local Income Tax had replaced Council Tax.

The problem there was the redistribution of the burden from one sector of the population onto another sector of the population.

Council Tax supposedly relates to the value of the property allbeit at 1991 values. Thus the larger the home in theory the more you could pay in tax. Great until you are a pensioner, or whatever that has ended up in a large house, through historically being there while you had a good income and standard of income, but once you retired, or whatever, that income went. However those stuck on a really low income might be able to get some form of income support or other concession, and of course if he persoon lives by themselves they do get 25% Council Tax deduction.

Income tax will place the majority of the burden on the semi professionals, managers and similar supposedly "high income" earners (although at current levels high income is not in fact that high - it's a comfortable level but not that comfortable). These are already heavily and possibly disproportionatley burdened by taxation, especially as such people will rarely, if ever, be entitled to any form of income suppport or other concessions. Meanwhile many of these "high income" earners do not in fact live in the larger houses for areas, as they could not afford to do so. Thus the tax burden could jump massively for some.

The Liberal democrats answer is not a good one IMO. They have already said they will raise general income tax levels to pay for their plans. Now they will further penalise a large sector of the population by doubling up with a local income tax.

I don't know what the answer to local council revenue needs is, but I don't think a local income tax is it.

I am aware that labour and liberal democrats are all for "redistribution of wealth", but at the moment I see very little evidence that the ever spiraling amounts we are paying is making a real difference to the front line. Meanwhile individual earnings are getting penalised, pension plans are getting taxed, and general standards of living for the private sector emloyed are slipping. At the same time the public sector employee enjoys protected pensions, often good holiday rights, and often a reasonable salary. It is indeed this pension timebomb inequality that is causing the biggest tax problems. If a political party was to have the balls to deal with that, fiddling with local and national tax would be a lot easier to address.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

sda becomes prime minister and makes everyone pay the same
tax rate :tu:

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

I'm not so sure. The fact is that people are getting seriously pi$$ed off with Labour's lies, half truths and deceptions, they wouldn't trust the Tories as far as they could throw them, there is a distinct possibility IMO that a lot of people will either not bother to vote, or go Lib Dem as a protest.

If enough of them do, we could see the big shake in UK politics that we so badly need.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

It's a good point, but I think a large proportion of that has been due to Gordon Brown's stealth taxes, ie doing everything possible to keep the revenue coming in (raising NI, taxing small business dividends etc) whilst avoiding putting up Income Tax because Labour have got themselves in a stupid "bidding war" with the Tories over who can go the longest before blinking and saying they'll put tax up.

But at least they're being *honest* about it and I think that's what a lot of people want because they're fed up with the other two parties trying to hood-wink them.

Surveys have shown that a lot of people would agree with eg an extra penny on income tax if the money was ring-fenced to target education, so putting up taxes is not necessarily a bad thing.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

exactly the stealth taxes, and political bidding war are big issues. I agree the Lib Dems are at least being open by saying they will raise income tax. However, by now the Stealth Taxes should be raising at least the amount that the Lib Dems wanted from income tax, over the last couple of elections (that policy has been around that long I think), so yes Ok raise income tax by a penny and reduce the stealth taxes, might be reasonable. But to want even more money. Where does it stop?

The problem has to be that at some point enough has to be enough and we have to also determine if we are getting value for money out of this increased taxation, however it is being raised. On balance I have to say we aren't. It seems to me to be going into increased beaurocracy, red tape (the increasing accountability and compensation culture is a major nightmare, which creates such a paper trail in all walks of life that does nothing for actually getting something done), and of course trying to fund an ever increasing public service pension bill, while the private pension plans (which the givernment urges us to have) get raided more and more.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

They are the only Party that don't use Tory policies..

Although I would love to see the Council Tax scrapped (it won't be a fair tax until the property bands are re-assessed), I am not sure replacing it with a local income tax is a good idea. It's not a bad idea, but it does sound like more of the same.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

Totally stupid idea in my opinion. At the moment they have to contend with people moving houses/areas to add extra admin burden, but think of the number of times some people change jobs. Changes in area and jobs together would increase the admin time and money wasted collecting the tax. Then there's the question of where is it collected? Most people don't live anywhere near where they work. Will it be collected at the work area or at the home area. Who's responsibility is it to pay the tax, the company you work for or you? How are they going to find out your income? Are they going to have access to everyones tax, income and financial data? What about all the people who work for cash in hand? At the moment they know what your house is like and judge you on that. This local tax idea puts so many different and changing variables into the pot that half the money would be spent trying to get the ever-changing info on peoples wages, let alone collecting it.

I notice they've also said p0rn should be available to everyone 16+:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3553273.stm

Didn't they back legalisation of drugs a while back too. Sure they don't want to start running for office in the netherlands rather than the UK?

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

Well the government already *has* access to all your income data etc, so the easiest way would be to include it on the PAYE code which would deal with the vast majority of people in the country. It wouldn't be that difficult to split the money taken into "for the government" and "for X local council".

What about all the people who live at temporary address and move around to where the work is *and* do it cash in hand already?

They're using resources and utilities that everyone else is paying for, but not paying anything themselves. Is that fair?

No, they know what your house was like in 1991, over *twelve years* ago!

I disagree, I think most of those variables are easily dealt with, eg it's very easy to base the tax on a person's income in the previous year (as tax is worked out anyway). If there's a major change, they can appeal, just as they can appeal against council tax.

That's being addressed in another thread, here:

http://forum.nthellworld.co.uk/showp...2&postcount=29

Can we keep this thread to one topic, please.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

National government has had access to my tax records, to my knowledge local government doesn't.

I would presume that people following work around and working cash in hand are living in houses they don't own for short periods and the person renting them the house is probably paying it as they wouldn't want their house on a credit blacklist and presumably make enough from the rent anyway.

Surely, a tax on peoples income should be on their income now, not last year. This would be as unfair as this current system or the poll tax.

Why should local councils trust the central government to collect and hand over this money. The whole problem at the moment is that they collect business rates for the government, which hands it back due to their own formula. If this is the case, what is to say that people living in certain areas won't be subsidising others once again, making the concept of a 'local' tax completely false!

The rate at which houses have risen since 1991 would presumably be fairly constant in local areas, meaning it doesn't matter if it's the value of your house now or 15 years ago, it's still a house.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

Gee, so sorry to have written a sentence not 100% on topic. I don't scan every single post in all the forums before writing each sentence, just in case there is thread about it already.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

I think they do. I don't know for sure though.

Actually, thinking about it, wouldn't the job of calculating the tax be done by the Inland Revenue (which may have to be re-organised), which does have access to your income tax records?

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

No need for sarcasm.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

I doubt they do. Many national government departments can't share information, so I don't see how a local government would be able to. In fact, I think there was a bit of an outcry recently when the government said this kind of thing might be allowed, ie local governments officials able to access more data on people.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

Well, no need to really tack on a sarcastic toned request at the end of his reply to my post. That point was 99% on topic. This is a thread about the Lib Dems and their future policies. My point was about the lib dems and their future policies. Someone has introduced information about this lib dem move into another thread about pornography. It is not a thread about the lib dems attitude to pornography, so the post in that thread could be taken as off topic for that that thread as mine is to this one.

I'm sure that if I thought this idea by the lib dems was wonderful and had posted as such, my last comment wouldn't have been found off topic. It's not as if I suddenly started talking about something completely unconnected to the lib dems and their future policies.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

True, although your tax records are available to more people than you would think. I know this, as I know people who work for central government. And I know for a fact that some local government departments have access to your National Insurance record for instance.

Oh, and this thread is called "lib dems: we will scrap council tax". No mention of other policies. So, no, there is still no need for sarcasm.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

*runs and hides :pp

proberbly out of the funds generated.

lol, we need it because some councils get more or less, this 'should' ensure the money collected gets spent in areas that need it...........wheres that BBC article............

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

Of course the biggest problem with any local taxation, be it the ancient rates (on which the current council tax is not that dissimilar) or even the much hated polll tax, is that it is the only amount of funding that the local authority can change.

Central Government grants and Business Rates are both forwarded to the council, as the government sees fit. Thus any shortfall in funding can only come from Council Tax.

The real problem with Council Tax is thus the need to reform local authorities spending plans, and ensure they get proper central government grants. If this is not dealt with, however local tax is raised will always meet with dissapproval due to perceived unfair burdens.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

Never trust a politician to tell you the whole truth.They are extremely profficient at being 'economical with the truth'.

The Lib Dems just haven't told the whole truth.

Incog.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

But if it's collected by PAYE it shouldn't matter, should it?

Most people's incomes don't change massively from one year to the next. Those that do can appeal with reasonable proof. Also if you're self-employed and self-assessed, your tax is based on last year's figures already.

I would hope (although my cynicism is saying "hah!" at the moment!) that the system was designed to be transparent enough that it would be easy to see if the central government was bilking the system for their benefit and it could be questioned.

Well that's the current system with Council Tax as well, ie the government allegedly giving money to Labour areas in the North at the cost of those in the South.

Not in the slightest! There are "fashionable areas" (even in a small city like Portsmouth) where house prices have gone through the roof whilst only a few miles away the rate of increase has been much less.

If you've been living in one of those areas since before when house prices were assessed, you could be faced with a massive rise in tax through no fault of your own.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

There was no sarcasm present, nor intended. I'm sorry you read it in that way, but it was simply an attempt to stop this thread about Council Tax getting diverted into other areas.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

Whilst I may, cynically, agree with you, what do you think the Lib Dems are hiding? Perhaps they have decided on a new tack and *are* telling the truth?

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

Yep prices can change disproportionately between neighbourhoods. Over time this does affect the accuracy of bandings. The biggest problem though is that bandings are based on a moment in time, so far back, that few can make any comparison with current reality. Thus there is perceived unfairness, even though there might still be a level of parity.

Business properties are revalued at five yearly intervals. The same should have been applied to housing. But no doubt the cost of such regular revaluations would be so administratively burdensome that the costs of council tax would escalate yet again.

*Wonders why noone complains about water rates to the same degree as council tax, yet these to are based on historic property values. Maybe it's because water bills are regulated, and can't increase too much relative to inflation. Wonders why the same regulation constraints to prevent vast increases aren't applied to council tax.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

True, but...

... however even five years may be too long. I bought this flat for £57,500 about 2 1/2 years ago. Were I to sell it now it would be worth around £90,000 .

In some parts of Portsmouth prices have appreciated even more in that time.

Because it's not a political issue? Anyway, if people are concerned about their water rates, they can consider going onto a meter system if they have low usage.

Well there are supposed to be caps on council tax rises, but since it's a political issue, they're not so easy to deal with.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

Ah the crux of the matter. For those who would see a saving in their taxation, they will be happy to move to the cheaper option. For those who will incur more cost, there is no incentive to move, and indeed there would be opposition.

So for a local income tax scheme, would there be sufficiently more gainers than loosers to enable the Lib Dems to get away with the change or turn it into a hot potatoe. Would the loosers be sufficiently many and aggrieved to create enough noise that the policy would become unworkable, much like the Poll Tax?

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

It's a difficult issue, but the current system has to change. At the moment we are seeing people who have worked hard all their lives to pay off their mortgage and hopefully have enough money in their pension for retirement - being forced to sell the homes they worked so hard for because they cannot pay the council tax.

So the pensioner in a nice house they have earned has to pay the same amount as the family of 15 in a council estate that probably haven't worked a day in their lives and who probably get their council tax paid for in benefits anyway.

The poll tax at the other end of the spectrum was nearly a good idea but this benefitted the rich people who lived in mansions and earned millions but paid the same as a single parent on an estate.

what is required is a blend of the two, based on the income of the property and the value of the property. Also IMO pensioners should be exempt (or at least those that have paid their tax's all their lives)

What is the point of trying to make a better life for yourself so that when you retire you can't afford to live in your house, and if you sell it or pass it onto your kids bloody Brown is there to take his cut.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

IMO there could be more gainers than losers (although that does, of course, depend on the level the tax is set at) because there are a lot of pensioners and low income families who will see this as a benefit to them.

The question then becomes what the charge will be for "middle England" families, ie those who are above the benefit levels, but not "big earners" and whether they will see a reduction in their tax bills from Gordon's Stealth Taxes.

Re: lib dems: we will scrap council tax
 

Problem with local income tax as I see it is the cost of the bureaucracy, as there are more people than houses in the country.

Other than that it sounds a fine idea - income tax is the only fair tax anyway. Answering Pierre's point about hard-working pensioners, many pensioners earn nothing like as much as even a low-paid worker, so would presumably be exempt (assuming an allowance below which LIT wouldn't operate, mainly because the cost of collecting it wouldn't be worth it) or pay very little.

BB (third highest council tax in the country going up 5.6% this year ouch and a Tory council too)