when does the education start ?
 

the parents of an elementary school girl were angry, after there 'first grade' daughter was found to be reading a book about two men 'kissing' indeed the book was about two men falling in love......

the mother said:

source: local6.com

http://www.local6.com/news/2931282/detail.html

i would be every interested to hear peoples views on this, i was concerned about the 'beliefs' bit what is that all about ?

Re: when does the education start ?
 

If people do not let their children learn about things like this, how are the adopted children of gay couples ever going to be accepted at school when they explain that they don't have a mum, but have two dads.

I can kind of understand the parents view, but i think most children are more intellegent and understanding than parents think. If they parents say 'you can't read about things like the because it is wrong' then they child is more likely to grow up homophobic, a simple explanation should be enough to satisfy the childs curiosity, and in a society that is becoming increasingly tolerant of homosexuality, i think it is important that children are educated too.

all my opinion of course... feel free to disagree ;)

Re: when does the education start ?
 

I disagree.
I feel that very young children should be educated along 'mainstream' lines until they are older.

Re: when does the education start ?
 

ok so you should :D

what do you mean by mainstream ?

kissing someone of the same sex is not considered mainstream because ?

its irrelevant on whether the kiss was sexual as the bond was that of freindship and a relationship, to a person of that age that would not be relevant.......

having said that you would deny the freedom of choice to see things in a clear and unobstrusive light ?

Re: when does the education start ?
 

hmm... what is your definition of young children though? and how do you define mainstream, in a society that is becoming more and more tolerant to things that differ from the "norm(!)"?

I can see why you would disagree, but what about the children who do have gay parents? It is well known that black children usually play with black dollies, and white will usually play with white dollies. So should children from a heterosexual background be read stories about straight couples and those from homosexual backgrounds be read stories about homosexual couples?

btw i don't feel strongly about this... i am just playing devil's advocate :pp i do like a good debate! :D

Re: when does the education start ?
 

ROFL! And is it the "understanding" or the "beliefs" that is *really* causing this mother the probelms?!

I'll give you three guesses...

Re: when does the education start ?
 

"Mainstream"? What exactly is "mainstream"?

Would you agree that most "mainstream" people accept that there's nothing wrong with two men kissing and falling in love?

If so, what's wrong with a book about it? Surely it's better for children to learn that this sort of thing is perfectly acceptable, rather than have prejudices forced upon them.

Re: when does the education start ?
 

:notopic:

rock, paper, scissors. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Re: when does the education start ?
 

Mainstream would be the heterosexual child producing opposite sex couples required to propogate the continuation of the species.

Men can kiss and fall in love, but to be honest is there a future in it?

Why on earth should kids be faced with non mainstream books advocating men kissing? this is not remotely acceptable in any culture I am aware of - its basically an extremely sub culture vyeing for space.

Re: when does the education start ?
 

true

in this case why are homosexual marriages and adoption by homosexual couples being legalised? surely a child being offered the chance to grow up with love and affection is better than spending their childhood in a care home or being pushed from pillar to post different sets of foster parents?

The fact that leglalisation has been consider must surely indicate that it IS becoming acceptable. Oh an also in Shinto, homosexuality is considered a superior form of love. ;)

Re: when does the education start ?
 

I dont think Shintoism has a large follwoing in the UK.
Look at some religions and the way they treat women, would it make it ok to abuse women because another religion thinks it as OK? No didnt think so.

Look at it from the other side, in this world of intolerence is it fair to adopt a child if you are a gay couple knowing the treatment that child will receive at school. Bullying is a problem for most children, the children certainly dont need more "ammunition" to taunt their pray with.

Remember we dont live in an ideal world, homosexuality is still considered to be wrong by many people. And most kids would love to have ammunition to call the "weird" kid a ******.

I personally dont think that this incident (of pupils reading a book about same sex couples faling in love) was appropriate, at 9 years old I dont even think teaching about hetrosexual relationships is appreopriate.

Re: when does the education start ?
 

Riiight....! :rolleyes:

So people who form relationships and, indeed have sex, *without* the desire or intent of having children are not "mainstream", yes? So our children should not be "faced" with that either...?

What business is it of yours or anyone else's if there is a "future" in it??

No, it's a group of people who have as much right as anyone else to kiss and form relationships with the person whom they are attracted to, and who simply want the "mainstream" to understand and *respect* that right.

If you teach children from an early age that this is not "mainstream" or it is "wrong" or "unacceptable" then they will grow up simply repeating the bigotry and prejudice of the previous generations.

And if any of *them* feel that way inclined, they will not feel guilty or ashamed for natural feelings that they have little control over.

Re: when does the education start ?
 

And how, exactly , do you propose to reduce or eliminate that "intolerance" if children are *not* taught that it is acceptable and *should* be tolerated?

Not that long ago it would have been unconscionable, if not illegal in some places for a mixed-race couple to form a relationship. However people have stood up and *fought* against that sort of bigotry and prejudice and now (in most places) these couples can walk down the street openly.

Gay relationships *are* becoming tolerated, but only because children are learning more and more that they're perfectly acceptable and reasonable, despite a bigotted minority who want to perpetuate old hatreds.

But is that just *your* prejudices showing???

Re: when does the education start ?
 

Surely the bullying is a symptom of intolerance, suspicion and ignorance? Therefore portraying homosexuality as acceptable (for adults, anyway) is likely to *reduce* bullying rather than anything else.

Nikko - I presume since you wish to couple sex solely with the production of children that you're againtst recreational sex and contraception? One of the defining things about human civilisation is the realisation that we can control our own fertility. If you accept that recreational sex is acceptable you can't then say that homosexual recreational sex isn't acceptable, since both are concerned with adult pleasure and bonding rather than the production of children.

Re: when does the education start ?
 

Nikko your comments about homosexuals bein a sub culture are pathetic, its people like you that stop the world from becomming a better place where everyone is accepted.

Back on topic - have to agree that teaching children say under the age of 11 anything about sex isn't totally right, unless the parents want to do it - children under that age need to learn about forming friendships and understand what is an acceptable way to treat someone. Over 11 I don't see whats wrong with them being taught about sexuality, its something they will have to deal with the older they get

Re: when does the education start ?
 

I dont. Is the simple answer. Nothing that concerns nor bothers me. Quite frankly I dont give a damn. If we accept same sex couples it will only be a matter of time before we have to accept somehting else to make this world abetter place. Accepting same sex couples will not make this world a better place. Let them get on with, and stop telling people they must accept them.

Yeah and although they can walk down the street openly it does not stop peoples prejudice, it doesnt stop racism does it?

Yhen I am one of the biggotted minority, even though I accept that its peoples circumstances that dictate this (along with the fact I simply couldnt give two fecking hoots about who was gay and who wasnt ((because I have other more important things to worry about such as how the pips get inside an apple)) ), I still dont think its right. Same sex couples cannot pro-create, and pro-creation is the ultimate aim of humans just like EVERY other species of animal.

I tolerate, I dont victimise yet I get told I am biggotted because as a hetrosexual I believe its wrong. Forcing people to accept homosexuality isnt right either.

I'm bowing out of this thread now, people know what my feelings are as I expressed them in the last gay thread on here.

To those that want to attack what I believe and feel.......what makes your views so rightious and all important huh?



No

Re: when does the education start ?
 

Once again anyone who dares to say they don't support someone elses view of the world is labelled as "intollerant" or "biggoted". The only "intollerant" people I see are those people who think only their views are correct and everyone who disagrees is a "biggot".

Re: when does the education start ?
 

Ah, so your attitude is "I'm all right, Jack". Prejudice and bigotry are entirely acceptable to you provided they don't affect you...

Gosh, what a nice person you are.

What are you *ON*??

*Not* accepting someone simply because they're the wrong race/ colour/ creed/ sexuality does *NOT* make the world a better place! Telling people, especially children, that this sort of bigotry is *acceptable* will only make the problem worse, not better.

Well, no, because there are people like *YOU* out there who go "it's not my problem, I don't think we should tell people that that they should accept others even though they're different" and thus implicitly *condone* that sort of behaviour.

Hmm, are you...? Let's see...

Yes, I think you're right and you sum up your bigotry quite nicely here.

No, you *ignore*.

You do, because you are content to *ignore* the problem.

Telling people there is nothing wrong with it is *NOT* the same as "forcing them to accept it".

You or they do not have to participate in it, but *neither* should you cross over to the other side of the street...!

If you have to ask the question in the first place, it's just evident that your prejudicies blind you to the facts.

Re: when does the education start ?
 

I don't think that they are automatically labelled as intollerant etc. I think that other people find it hard to except the reasons why they take that opinion.

I can't understand why so many Americans are so dead against gay marriage. I listen to the reasons but to me they sound, flawed and flimsy at best. Which leads me to think they have a prejudice which is making them see reason when it's not there. Equally it could be myself that is the prejudiced one.

In these situations it's hard not to resort to words like biggot, because its like having a theist V atheist argument without insulting one another. And we all know how hard that is ;)

Kids make their own ammunition these days, it doesn't matter if it's true or not

Re: when does the education start ?
 

People accept things that they are brought up with. So the sooner that people experience/are exposed to these 'taboo' things the better IMO

Re: when does the education start ?
 

I cant resist this.

Why should people accept same sex couples adopting children?

Graham as ignorant as you think I am I will still beg to differ. The fact I dont care and the fact I am not in the slightest bit concerned over who is gay and who isnt has not a damn thing to do with anything.
By your reckoning I am making things worse by doing nothing.

If thats the case why arent you doing anything about womens rights in Afghanistan? Why arent you actively campaigning for human rights in China?

Why? because it doesnt affect you. Same as who is or isnt gay does not affect me. I couldnt care less if you were gay had 3 legs and 100 eyes. I have more things to worry about than someones sexuality.

That said, I still dont think its something that should be openly declared. You dont see me walking down the street making a scene because I am hetrosexual do you? no I simply get on with. You dont see me bitchin because I have no legal rights to see my own son do you? no I get on with it. I look out for my family instead of trying to right all the wrongs in the world.

Simply put I disagree with same sex couples adopting children. I dont abuse homosexual people and I often enjoy nights out with the homosexual friends I have both male and female, their views on the subject? if they wanted to have kids they wouldnt be gay.

Re: when does the education start ?
 

Why shouldn't they?

Re: when does the education start ?
 

Because some people are not quite ready to welcome homosexuality with open arms. And no one here has stopped to consider the damage it MAY do to the children in the long term.

Re: when does the education start ?
 

Well, if I'm not ready to allow women in the work place, should I be forced to?

She MAY do damage to my business, destract men, take more leave, maternity leave, get emotional during office hours. etc.



Just so you know I'm not being serious

Re: when does the education start ?
 

Hmm thats a crock of sh*t - so to have children you shouldn't be gay? - a homosexual couple can give the same love to a child as a heterosexual couple - bringing up kids does not involve a parents sexuality!

Re: when does the education start ?
 

So you are now discounting the views of people that are gay and are directly affected by this.......hmmmm interesting.


Why is it those that preach tolerance are the most intolerant towards others with differing beliefs?

Re: when does the education start ?
 

that is very profound - got me thinking, anyway, thanks:)

Re: when does the education start ?
 

Cheers :)

I'm not here to stir up a hornets nest just to offer an balance and an insight into the "other" side.

Re: when does the education start ?
 

As a parent I have the full right to decide what I want my children to be taught. If the parents decide this is unacceptable, they have final say. I must say, I will also have major problems with this.

Society is NOT responsible for my children's education. I am. Society has NO say what I have to teach my children.

Re: when does the education start ?
 

Well last time I checked with mother nature the natural order for human beings was for a childs parents to be male & female - I believe it is quite difficult for two males or two females of the species to have offspring.

Re: when does the education start ?
 

Because, IMO, there is still a strong religious element to the USA and, as far as many in "middle America" are concerned, homosexuality is an offence against god and nature.

They've already failed to keep it outlawed, so now they're just digging in their heels and trying to cause as many difficulties as possible to prevent gays from having equal rights.

Re: when does the education start ?
 

Wrong question. The question should be "why should they *not*...?"

Is there any *proof* that bringing up a child in a same-sex relationship is going to be "damaging" to the child? (Or, at least, more damaging than more than a few opposite sex relationships have caused...!)

I certainly don't think so, but the attitude from some quarters appears to be that because it's not "natural" or "mainstream" or "normal" or whatever other excuse they may choose, then it's automatically *wrong*, which is nonsense.

Fine, that's your right.

But it is not just that you are just "doing nothing"! It is the fact that when I asked...

"how, exactly, do you propose to reduce or eliminate that "intolerance" if children are *not* taught that it is acceptable and *should* be tolerated?"

Your response was...

"I dont. Is the simple answer. Nothing that concerns nor bothers me. Quite frankly I dont give a damn."

Now I don't see any other way to read this, than that you consider intolerance to be *acceptable*!

You continued: "Let them get on with, and stop telling people they must accept them."

Yes, I agree entirely that we should "let them get on with it", but if we do *NOT* inform children that what they are doing *is* acceptable, that will only enable prejudice and bigotry to flourish.

How do you know that I am *NOT*??

Bulls$$t. Don't try to force *your* opinions and motivations onto me.

If you are heterosexual and choose to kiss your girlfriend on the street, do you get people shouting comments and abuse?

If you are white and your girlfriend is black, what then?

If you are the same sex as your partner...?

Nobody is talking about making a scene (yes, ok, I know there are some "militant queers" out there who will deliberately do so, but I don't think they particularly help their cause), they're talking about letting people, as you say, "get on with it", without anyone being concerned.

But if a child sees two men kissing and *has not* learned that it is a perfectly acceptable lifestyle choice, or, more importantly, has had prejudices *forced* upon them by bigots, they will react in an "unacceptable" way.

I don't know anything about you or your son, so I cannot comment on your case. However the fact is that there *are* some people who do "bitch" about this and will try to do something about it. Do you support their actions or could you "not care less"?

ROFLALAL!! :rofl:

So *they* don't want to have children, fine. That's their choice. But to imply that *they* are somehow representative of *all* gay couples is ludicrous!

The fact is that thare *ARE* gay couples out there who want children. It's easier for lesbians, of course, because all they need is a sperm donor, but male couples need to either adopt or get a surrogate mother, neither of which may be a viable or acceptable option.

I return to my original question. Do you have any *PROOF* that bringing up a child in a same-sex relationship is *really* damaging to a child?

Re: when does the education start ?
 

And some people are not quite ready to welcome mixed race couples or Catholics marrying Protestants or Arabs marrying Israelis or any other prejudiced bigotted nonsense...

Re: when does the education start ?
 

Okay, I would have few questions for the parents.

Firstly, at which age do they feel it appropriate for their daughter to learn that there exists such a thing as homosexuality? and at which age do they feel it appropriate for her to learn about heterosexuality?

Secondly, would they be happy to let their daughter read a book with a prince and princess kissing? From the information in the article, I'm guessing that this book was taken from the library by the choice of the daughter, if that is the case, have they sat with her and asked her why she chose that book and what she thinks of the content?

Thirdly, why do they deem it acceptable for them to hold on to the book and keep it from circulation? It may be against their beliefs, and if they want the right to chose what they think is best for their daughter, are they right to deny other parents/children at that school the right to read that book according to those peoples beliefs?

Finally, if in ten years time, their daughter tells them that she is gay, do they think that they will still believe that they were right to deny access to this book and similar material to their daughter?