another abuser caught
 

the key should be thrown away for this , sick b@stard :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Re: another abuser caught
 

this makes me so mad :mad: that people in a position as important as this do something so sick how did he get away with it for so long :mad:

i am pleased they finaly caught him though

Re: another abuser caught
 

How did I know who would post this :D

Re: another abuser caught
 

It's ironic (and very blackly humorous), but the fact is that this guy might well have been able to give much *more* valuable information about protecting children because his knowledge is not just hypothetical or second hand.

I'm *NOT*, of course, saying that what he did should be condoned in any way, but the concepts of "poacher turned gamekeeper" or "set a theif to catch a theif" aren't new ones by any means.

Re: another abuser caught
 

And I believe that is the only answer for these people. Paedophilia, apart from being a terrible crime, is not seen as a crime by the people who commit it.

To a paedophile having sex with children is "normal". It is their sexual orientation. You can't cure a paedophile the same way you can't turn a straight person gay or a gay person straight.

Which is why it is ludicrous to let these people back into society, because they WILL reoffend. They will not be able to suppress their urges.

Re: another abuser caught
 

I think that's debatable.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Agreed, isn't it ironic that another so called expert ( in whatever field ) has come to light as being a fraud \ unreliable \ dishonest, I could rant on but won't, I just get sick of it all :mad:

Re: another abuser caught
 

Looking at it from a purely logical point of view, I agree with Graham (after all. this guy actually is a Paedo, so he knows exactly how they operate), and those concepts do work.

Tieing in with Graham's To catch a theif comment (and using an example from my own field of work), I have been taught that the best people to advise on computer security are reformed hackers. However, you have to be careful as they may slip back into their old ways.

I think this guy could still be helpful, but he would need to be closely monitored to make sure he doesn't slip back into his old ways.

Not that I agree with (or condone in any way) what he did. That is sick.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Well debate it then!!! that is the point of having these forums.

Re: another abuser caught
 

I have to disagree with that, because it's like saying that, for instance, someone who becomes a Monk would never be able to hold to a vow of celibacy as hetero-sexuality is *their* sexual orientation.

The trick is to help the paedophile understand that, no matter what they, personally, may feel about children, those feelings are *not* reciprocated (unless the child has been groomed/ brainwashed/ coerced) and that acting upon them *will* hurt the child and cause them suffering.

Re: another abuser caught
 

The attitude that paeodophilia is wrong is nothing more than societal training. There is no reason to pre-suppose that the appropriate psychological counselling wouldn`t have to potential to reform a paedophile. It has clearly worked on the majority of the population, and while there will always be a percentage of paedophiles who cannot be reformed, there will be a percentage of paedophiles who can.

For those paedophiles, who as you point out cannot see that they are committing a crime, surely you must then also call into question their ability to determine right from wrong, and by extension their sanity. If that is the case, you are condoning giving up entirely on an individual simply because of an illness, albeit one that has terrible consequences for others.

Re: another abuser caught
 

fair comment but i am not sure it would work , can anyone find anything to prove or disprove this ???????????

Re: another abuser caught
 

I'm sure I've asked before but don't remember getting an answer, but is there any evidence of chemical castration removing sexual urges in men?
I know a castrated dog can still get randy, but is it a possible treatment?
Of course its no good with female paedophiles.

Maybe we should just build a time machine and send them back to the greeks.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Good point. I'm sure that paedophiles use more than just their sexual organs to abuse children.

Re: another abuser caught
 

I read an article on the body mod scene that mentioned that surgical castration does not necessarily destroy sexual urges in men, so I guess the same would probably hold true of most forms of chemical castration. But I`m sure that it would be possible to develop a pharmaceutical that could suppress sexual urges through a different mechanism.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Thing is, from some of the interview with these 'people' (and I use the word loosely) - some of them say that's not always a 'sexual' thing? - a chunk of it is a power trip? - being in control. If they were castrated (prefereably with a rusty blunt knife) would it stop them? yeah, it might stop them performing the physical act, but would it stop them taking part in the these rings that there are, and watching? - sadly I don't think it would stop them.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Sticking them in jail is pointless as they will come out and re-offend.

They should be sent to a mental home and try to be treated and not release till they are and that goes or all of them (even those who a let off with a warning). In the case that they are deemed to no longer pose a risk then they get to go free if they dont have a jail term to serve or if they have already served it in the home. If they still got some jail time left they stay in the home or help police. Then are checked regualerly.

Re: another abuser caught
 

As an aside, does anyone know how common female paedophiles are? - is paedophilia mainly just the practice of men?


With paedophiles does it reach a point where you say, that there is nothing you can ever do that will make these people 'safe' - and for the safety of others they should be put in a place where they never have access to other people (other than their own kind).

Re: another abuser caught
 

It was believed in WWI that bromine water did the trick.

I think the person needs to 'want' to not abuse children for any drugs to be any use. If a person is forcibly castrated he may continue out of spite.

But for those who want to be helped, I think some kind a medication could help (assuming it exists)

Re: another abuser caught
 

Yes, a lot of rapes are for the power trip.
I know the case of indecent assault I was a jurer on was about that more than sexual gratification.

Now, with regards to punishment, should someone who's actually abused children get the same punishment as someone who's just got pics on his/her computer?

Re: another abuser caught
 

I'm sure more of it goes on than is reported.
The attitude of the abused is probably different if the abuser is female and the abused is male.
Many boys wouldn't feel bad about having sex with an older woman at the age of 12, or even younger.
Of course many boys would feel bad too.

Re: another abuser caught
 

I guess that's the thing - if you're looking at these pictures, then you've got something wrong with you - but does it mean that looking at the pictures stops you from going out and doing it, or does it incite you to go out and do it?

Or does it make any difference?.
Personally I'd probably say, you get caught doing anything in that area, you should be put away for good.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Just one point on that..... In my work life I have had to rate sites and add blacklists. I have allso worked with the police and CCU looking for these sites. I had to register this fact so that if my searching was reported I could cover my back. You dont want to know about some of the sh$te that I have found in my time :sick:

So there is no excuse for having the pictures as anyone searching for ligitimate reasons will have registered that fact !

Re: another abuser caught
 

top post in my opinion :tu: :tu: :tu: :tu: :tu:

Re: another abuser caught
 

Now say it wasn't a child being molested, but a child being killed. That would surely be worse, wouldn't it?

So an adult being killed would be at least as bad, wouldn't?

So getting enjoyment from watching an adult being killed would mean that "there's something wrong with you", yes...?

So watching a Clint Eastwood/ James Bond/ Rambo/ Schwarzennegger film...?

Ah, but *we* can tell the difference and we know that *we* wouldn't do that sort of thing...

... it's *them* that we're worried about...!!

Re: another abuser caught
 

Its not be same

Adults are not children.

People wacth adult porn the diffrance is the age

Re: another abuser caught
 

This is off topic, but I had a friend who worked in the Obscene Publications Squad. It was actually his job to watch and categorize all the evidence gathered. We always used to joke with him that he had the best job in the world for a bloke (watching porn and being paid). He said, one day, that the stuff he had to watch was far worse than what you get in the shops (even licenced sex shops), and usually made him physically sick.

There are some sick people around. I actually do think it helps the police to have somebody round who thinks like them, as long as that someone is controlled.

Re: another abuser caught
 

What?
There is a difference between watching a film that is NOT REAL, and looking at pictures or a film that you know, or believe IS REAL.

I don't see how you can compare watch a film that is fiction, to something watching something as disgusting as a child being killed?

Re: another abuser caught
 

Now this is a good idea Net chatbots to catch paedophiles


:D

Re: another abuser caught
 

As I said, right below the section you quoted:

For instance, there are people, real, grown up people, who have threatened, abused, or, indeed, actually *physically attacked* Soap Opera stars because of what their *characters* have done.

They are, it seems, *not* capable of distinguishing between fiction and reality.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Completely different scenario and you cannot use that example. A monk/priest etc take a vow of celibacy because that is a concience decision in regards to their faith and they are willing entrants into that decision. (and by the way some fail this vow)

With a paedophile they would also need to be willing, (doubtful). and keep out of the way of temptation. (monks used to go away to monasteries). Paedophiles need to be watched all the time and we do not have the social services resource to do that.

I stand by my earlier coment that paedophiles cannot be "cured" and should not be let back into society

Re: another abuser caught
 

"Cannot"? I just did! :D

So *why* can't a paedophile be re-educated so they *gain* back that conscience they seem to have lost? It may not work for all of them, but it's better (IMO!) than locking them up for life (and I'm sure that some of you will disagree with that!!)

Doubtful? Why? Got any cites to back that opinion up?

I've heard of paedophiles who are deeply ashamed of what they do and hate themselves for doing it. I would think that they would be *most* willing to do something that would make them disinclined to continue their activities.

Monks did not (and do not) go to monasteries *just* to "keep out of the way of temptation.

That's like saying that murderers need to be watched all the time. It's nonsense.

Fine, that's your *opinion*. Please excuse me if I disagree with it.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Murderers come in many shapes and sizes, crimes of passion, bursts of anger etc. they may get put away for a several years but are unlikely to commit another murder and are usually not a continual danger to society.

The ones that plan and cold bloodedly kill people usually go away for very long time.

Serial killers (Fred West, Ian Brady, Myra Hindley, Peter Sutcliffe) never come out.

Paedophiles (history shows) get about 4 years (serve 2) and then are let out, and are a danger to society. It would be interesting to see how subjective you would be if a paedophile lived next door to you and you had two young daughters. I'd bet you'd do some watching then. I would, anyone would.

No need to be excused, I value your opinion. wouldn't the world be a boring place if we all agreed.

Re: another abuser caught
 

So do paedophiles, however to equate murder with child molestation is a mistake and I probably shouldn't have brought it up, so let's change that to "people who commit acts of GBH" for instance, since even though the "damage" to the child may not be particularly physical, the mental effects could still be described as "grievous".

Now are you going to watch *everyone* who has got out of control and committed a serious act of GBH (which may have put someone in hospital) then been released at the end of their sentence?

May I remind you that the person *most* likely to commit abuse against a child is a parent/ close relative/ person known to and in a position of authority over that child.

I also suggest you take a look at http://home.uni-one.nl/books/howitt/7c.htm

Re: another abuser caught
 

This likening of other paedophiles to other criminals is irrelevant and detracting away from my particular point that paedophiles cannot be "cured". Whilst I understand in part with your earlier point of trying to appeal to the paedophiles bettter nature and asking him politely not to violate young children - please. I personally don't find that good enough.

I believe that in some cases we can take liberalism too far, and sometimes the answer to societies problems are not PC, sometimes we have make tough decisions for the greater good. If that means that people that violate children (and let's not forget that point, these people hurt children in ways I'm sure most of us could only try, and fail, to imagine) lose their human rights. Then that is something I am willing to accept.

Re: another abuser caught
 

You are assuming that the only reason that they are being held permanently is to punish them and protect society. You are forgetting to take into account that no government would risk releasing someone like Myra Hindley as it would cost them votes.

But your point, as a general sweeping statement is wrong.

Re: another abuser caught
 

You can, of course, prove that?

Pierre, mis-representing what I have said and putting your own "spin" on it is *not* a way to conduct a reasoned debate.

Ah, now we have Pierre playing the Political Correctness card, except that Political Correctness is something which which I will have no truck whatsoever :rolleyes:

Another wonderfully "political" quote...

Yes, and some are willing to lynch them or castrate them or even murder them. Of course if you end up with the occasional Paediatrician getting hurt in the cross-fire, I'm sure you can accept that as being regrettable, but acceptable as part of the "greater good" too...

Re: another abuser caught
 

While i'm not going to particpate in this discussion, thanks to my work, i have several articles on paedophilia, it's classification and implications for treatment if anyone is seriously interested in the debate and the current trends in possible treatment.

I'd love to post them here but can't thanks to copyright legislation and can't post links to the sites because they can only be accessed by password :(

If anyone would like the articles or more info feel free to pm me with your email address and i'll forward them to you :)


To conclude, all i will say is that it's a complicated issue with no simple solution or method of treatment, but there appear to be ways forward.

Re: another abuser caught
 

excellent post :tu:

Re: another abuser caught
 

And that, for me, at least, is a good thing.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Thread closed then? :eek: ;)

Re: another abuser caught
 

You'd have to ask Paul.

Re: another abuser caught
 

nope thread still well open as far as i am concerned , i must admit to siting on the sidelines on this one , sometimes itis interesting to watch and not post :)

Re: another abuser caught
 

Sorry graham.... i was joking :erm: and apologies to Paul too..... after much verbal shouting, i thought it was nice to end on a positive note..... but i know you have lots more to say graham :naughty: as do other members....

I made my contribution before and will not make any more childish posts..... in this thread anyway ;)

Re: another abuser caught
 

While I do agree that something should be done about Paedophillia, I don't agree with the Jail for all Paedo's option that some here seem to be suggesting. Jail, in a lot of cases, doesn't stop people commiting crimes. It teaches people not to get caught. Having said that, I think schemes to educate people as to what jail is actually like (as opposed to the image the media presents which is, incidentally, wrong) do work.

I actually agree with Kink. There isn't one correct answer to this. In some cases, Jail possibly does work. In some cases, it doesn't. It's the same with other treatments.

Re: another abuser caught
 

As far as predatory pedophiles go, there is atm, no cure (according to the two child protection social workers that I treat)
In the case of the 'family man' type who abuses his kids, there is apparently some stuff that can be done to change their behaviour.
Also...if pedophiles can be caught young enough (in teens or earlier) they can also be treated with more success.

Re: another abuser caught
 

You can, of course disprove it?


pot kettle black calling...


Just because you dismiss the point because of your own reasons/feelings makes the point no less valid.

Thank you.

Not sure what you mean there, but if you are referring to an "innocent" person being wrongly accused and convicted of a crime, then that is matter for the courts.

Oh by the way talking of Spin on quotes etc. I dont think you'll find that I have anywhere mentioned castration or lynching. I have only talked about jail terms. Again Pot kettle black etc........

Re: another abuser caught
 

I will conceed that in "some" cases paedophiles my be able to "supress" their feelings but they will never be "cured"

As I have mentioned earlier it would be like trying to turn a Gay man into Straight man.

Re: another abuser caught
 

No, you made the claim, the burden of proof is on you.

And now you can prove that one too...

:rofl: What?! :rofl:

You introduced "PC" into this discussion, yet what was being discussed was nothing to *do* with so-called Political Correctness, it is to do with *human rights*.

No, I am talking about cases such as that of Dr Yvette Cloete, a specialist registrar in paediatric medicine at the Royal Gwent hospital in Newport, who was forced to flee her house after vandals daubed it with graffiti in the middle of the night because they didn't know the difference between "paediatrician" and "paedophile".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/child/stor...361031,00.html

Of course, that is a matter for the courts. Those responsible for this act should be locked up!

Let me quote your words:

"[...] sometimes we have make tough decisions for the greater good. If that means that people that violate children [snip emotive stuff] lose their human rights. Then that is something I am willing to accept."

You are talking about it being *ACCEPTABLE* for people to "lose their human rights" and those who advocate castration or lynching etc would most certainly agree with you.

Pots? Kettles? Not around here...

Re: another abuser caught
 

Unfortunately you appear to be making the mistake of assuming that a gay man is *only* interested in men, instead of, as many are, being bisexual.

In the same way, just because someone may have paedophiliac *inclinations* (and remember the word only means "attracted to", not "child molester") does *not* mean that a) they can *only* get sexual gratification from children, nor that they *will* try to get sexual gratification from children.

There are gay men who, due to embarassment, shame, prejudice, society's influences, whatever *do * suppress their attraction to other men and go on to form relationships with women and *never* touch a man at all.

This may not be the case with *all* gay men, but I'm certain that it's not the case with all paedophiles either.

Re: another abuser caught
 

My feelings exactly

Re: another abuser caught
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1917451.stm

A quote from said article "He acknowledges that his sexual disorder cannot be cured but can be treated, cannot be eliminated but can be controlled."

http://www.innocenceindanger.org/inn.../news_shay.htm

A quote from said article "But Fr Shay believes that most sick perverts cannot be cured from their twisted crimes.

"Judges can send paedophiles into clinics all they like but most will stay the same. Statistics show that only two or three percent will becompletely rehabilitated and not re-offend."

Below is taken from the reading of the sex offenders bill in the House of Lords on the 14th March 1997.

http://www.parliament.the-stationery...t/70314-01.htm

Baroness Blatch "Paedophiles are markedly different from other criminals. They tend to be highly manipulative and clever, and their offending behaviour often intensifies with the passage of time. One of the problems of dealing with hardened paedophiles is that they do not consider their behaviour to be wrong--rather the opposite, they do not always understand or accept efforts to stop their activities. This makes them especially dangerous.""

Lord Thomas of Gresford "The point I wish to make is that although I lived in the community not a hint of misconduct was ever heard about what was happening there. It demonstrates the highly manipulative nature of sex offenders of this type to which the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, referred in her opening remarks. My noble friend Lord Mar and Kellie referred to the fact that paedophiles cannot be cured, only controlled. That took my memory back to a man whom I represented many years ago who conceded that his whole life had been made miserable by his compulsive obsession with young boys. I recall that he told me that aversion therapy made no difference to him. He had undergone voluntarily a scheme whereby photographs of young boys were shown to him and then he was injected to make him sick. He said that his compulsions were not changed at all. He would still walk across the road to pass by a young boy even though he did not even speak to him. He recognised that his obsession was a source of great trouble to him. Since I was involved defending him your Lordships will appreciate that he had failed to control that obsession and he was in trouble once again."


http://www.polfed.org/magazine/08_20...paedophile.htm

Quote from above journal.
"In the case of dangerous and persistent paedophiles, where there is considerable evidence from DNA and other sources, no release from incarceration should ever be contemplated, unless sexual offences have been admitted to and treatment has led to virtual one hundred percent rehabilitation. Great care must be taken before releasing individuals who claim to be cured.

They are quite capable of deceiving the authorities as to their rehabilitation in order to be released. Only long-term observation and monitoring of their behaviour can lead to evidence that true rehabilitation has occurred. There will be some among them who will never be rehabilitated. These should not be allowed to leave the prison system as it would not be fair to society and potential victims or to themselves."

I could post many other articles on here, I'm sure there are many articles to the contrary.

you what?????.......

What has the fact that some of the countrys thuggery underclass can't read got to do with it?

Yes lets see what I said.....

You choose to snip out the fact that children are violated as emotive. Yes it may be IN YOUR OPINION emotive, it is also a fact. Or do you not agree that children are violated??

You accuse me of taking away a paedophiles human rights. Well tough, what about the childs human rights. What about Sarah Paynes human rights after being killed by a freed convicted paedophile and she is not the only one.

Now you have pinned your colours to the mast I can see who is the most important in your world.

Let us protect the paedophiles and make sure they are well cared for.

Oh sorry, am I spinning again?

Re: another abuser caught
 

chop there tackle off

and there fingers

and put em back into society

full stop

Re: another abuser caught
 

So a paedophile is an expert on his own condition?

"Believes that..." And that's a quote from a Priest. And it's a quote from an article in the News of the Screws, that bastion of journalistic integrity...

Which statistics? Who researched and published them? Cites?

The Minister of State from the Home Office ie someone who can most likely be expected to follow the government's line.

"Other criminals", being whom, exactly? Your common or garden thug/ burglar/ mugger/ car thief/ whatever? Unlike, say, White Collar criminals who are also highly manipulative and clever and who, if they've managed to scam a few people out of their life savings etc, will often go on to do it again to even more people?

PETER TATCHELL recalls his 1972 protest against Prof. Hans Eysenckââ‚à ‚¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s advocacy of aversion therapy as a "cure" for homosexuality.

"Professor Eysenck began by emphasising that there was "no relationship between aversion therapy and punishment....it does not involve sadistic motivations.....Neither does aversion therapy seek to act as a deterrent. The fact is that aversion therapy is used for the patientsââ‚à ƒâ€šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢ own good.

Challenging his statement that aversion therapy was used "for the patientsââ‚à ƒâ€šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢ own good", I interrupted the lecture, citing cases of people who, since undergoing aversion therapy, have become chronic depressives."

http://www.petertatchell.net/psychiatry/dentist.htm

I have never *SAID* that they should all be released. I agree that great care should be taken to ensure that they don't re-offend. I don't deny that there are some who may be capable of deceiving psyciatrists.

However this should *NOT* be used as an excuse to "lock them all up for life and throw away the key"!

I have no doubt.

Let me quote your words "if you are referring to an "innocent" person being wrongly accused and convicted of a crime, then that is matter for the courts."

I am talking about an innocent person being hounded and attacked by a group of people who cannot look beyond the media hype. And who said anything about them being "some of the countrys thuggery underclass"?

"Scottish police have charged a man with murdering a former school teacher who spent time in jail for abusing teenage boys.

"The death follows police concern in recent weeks over a possible rise in vigilantism after addresses of paedophiles were published on the Internet."

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040217/325/em7mm.html

I'm sure at least *some* of those vigilantes are "ordinary decent people", just like the "ordinary decent people" who post messages on here or write letters to newspapers saying that paedophiles should be executed/ castrated/ locked in a room with a few good people...!

Don't be ridiculous, and don't try to distract from the subject. The words I snipped were "(and let's not forget that point, these people hurt children in ways I'm sure most of us could only try, and fail, to imagine)", now whilst it may be, to some extent, factual, it is *also* emotive and serves only to try to bolster your arguments with the fallacy of "Appeal to Emotion", eg "how can you argue against this when it's so terrible?"

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/index.html

And, once again you go for the Appeal to Emotion.

Oh dear, now you're verging on Ad Hominem.

Yes, you are, and it gives your arguments less credibility, not more.

Re: another abuser caught
 

You ask me to supply proof. I, like you, obviously is not a subject matter expert but I do supply many articles that show I am not alone in my thinking. You try to discredit this but offer nothing of your own.

And a group of people that don't know the difference between a doctor and an offender, they're obviously not very intelligent. It was me that called them the thuggery underclass, as I would imagine that it was not lawyers, stokebrokers, accountants or any person of reasonable intelligence that were beating a path to their door.

I dont deny that "ordinary" people may do extraordinary things. Hey I've got an idea. As it was my point that Paedophiles should not be released for our childrens safety, maybe they shouldn't be released for their safety also??

Sometimes it is right to appeal to emotion. to take away the emotional and damaging affects of these crimes, lessens the severity of the crime.

Maybe - but the point is valid. You champion the human rights of the paedophile. But here is an example of where a convicted paedophile was released back into the community. He was not a relative of Sarah Payne, he did not groom Sarah Payne over time. He was an opportunist that abducted her. It could have been any child at any time.

This is the scenario that frightens the public, now you may argue that not all paedophiles are like this, and I would agree to a point.

But from what I have read there is no evidence to support or deny that just maybe on one occasion a paedophile of any description might not give into his (or her) urges if an opportunist situation arose.

And that is the uncertainty of human nature.

Re: another abuser caught
 

And once again you attack *me*... :rolleyes:

If you wish to debate in a reasonable manner, please try to distinguish between *facts* and *opinions*.

"Thy're obviously not very intelligent". You would "imagine". You assume.

Once again you mistake opinion for fact.

What a wonderful idea. The fact that it goes against the entire nature of the Justice system in this country is merely an insignificant detail.

Once a person has been convicted of a crime, they are sent to jail/ fined etc and, once that sentence is concluded, they are deemed to have "paid their debt to society" and are released to get on with their lives.

You, however, seem to think it's acceptable to have a system where someone has to not only *go on* paying that debt, but also cannot expect the protection of the law that everyone else who is free to walk the streets of this country is *entitled* to and, seemingly, should be "fair game" to anyone who wishes to exact vigilante justice!

Rubbish!

Appealing to emotion *distracts* from the relevant issues being discussed. It is the sort of tactic used by Tabloid Newspapers and people losing arguments.

There is no "maybe" about it.

No, it is not...

*EXACTLY*!! It is the scenario that *FRIGHTENS* the public, it appeals to their *EMOTIONS*, not rational thought!

Yes, the Sarah Payne case is a tragedy, I don't deny it. But to claim it as *representative* is a mistake. A child is more likely to be abused by a family member/ close friend than a "random abuser". A child is *MUCH* more likely to be knocked down by a car or be injured or killed in a household accident, yet, because cases like Sarah Payne get the big media coverage, because it taps into an emotional fear, people lose sight of the *real* dangers in this world and, instead, focus on tragic, but *rare* cases instead.

Yes, except that I would argue that the *VAST MAJORITY* of paedophiles are not like this!

There is no evidence to support or deny that maybe, were I to meet you in person, I wouldn't haul off and try to punch your lights out. That is *also* the uncertainly of human nature.

However the legal system in this country *does* rely on *evidence*...!

Re: another abuser caught
 

:tu: :tu: :tu:

Re: another abuser caught
 

any women get done for pedophilia ? also whats the law have to say about ages of the children involved? does it stop being pedophilia after a certain age or is it dependant on the age of the pedophile? (i doubt)

Re: another abuser caught
 

Bit over the top *attack* being a bit emotional there.

No, I don't know them personally, but I think it is a safe assumption.

Rubbish yourself.

Highlighting the emotional impact of an issue can help bring more people in to discuss the relevant issues, thereby making for a healthier debate.

"losing argumets" don't flatter yourself.

Yes it is....

I was not making it representative of all paedophiles you have jumped to that conlusion yourself. I was merely highlighting it as scenario that can,has and could happen.

I've never heard of a Ford Capri raping a child??

Just because a child is more likely to be killed by a car/whatever does not detract from the argument and is quite quite frankly a very weak point.

I know who my money would be on.

And I don't dispute that. The shame is that before you have the "evidence" that a Paedophile is a re-offender a child must either be raped or killed.

Not a good state of affairs when once when he was caught the first time he was off the streets and a danger to no-one.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Are we forgeting something here people... We are debating about the human rights of the ofender.. Should he be castrated / should he get a nice cushy cell then 24hour police protection !!!

Can I just point out the obvios ---- SOD HIM --- What about the child ???? The child is the person who has to live with what happened for the rest of there lives. They can get let out early !!!

" What about the criminal - how is he going to cope ect "is all we ever hear these days... Sod him... He lost the right to respect when he violated a child.... Sod his human rights - what about the childs ?

Is it any wonder that in this country we have 20+ organisations set up to protect the criminal and 1 to support the victim !!

Re: another abuser caught
 

so what if a child consents to these acts?

Re: another abuser caught
 

Surely that's why there's a legal age of consent?

Re: another abuser caught
 

but thats broken by many a randy teenager in fact i was 21 days shy of my 16th when i first got lucky i dont think i did anything wrong the young lady in question was 2 months away from her 16th.. i have a scottish buddy who lost his at 13 to a 16 year old girl i doubt he will be wanting her locked away (especially as they are nor happily married)

you wouldnt have to engage in a sexual act with the child - many people are locked away for unsuitable pictures what if the child was fully aware of what was going on and agreed for these pics to be taken and then MR x is found with them in his home, i spose thats illigal as well yeah? so as long as a child (girl or boy) is 16 or over someone could legally take the pics or engage in sexual acts with the child as long as they agreed of course..

Re: another abuser caught
 

Thankyou :tu: :tu:

Re: another abuser caught
 

This is murkey territory.

There is a world of difference to a sexually active 15 year old and 6 year old that still plays with dolls and teletubbies.

I wouldn't like to say where the demarcation line is, but suffice to say there is a legal age of consent.

Re: another abuser caught
 

As I understand it, the Law considers ANY sex with an underage child statutory rape. They do not have the right to give consent.

I think the police tolerate kids having sex if they are within a couple of days of being 16 though, but as Pierre says, there is a world of difference between a sexually active 15 year old, and a 6 year old.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Exactly! How can you make the presumption that a 6 year old child (for example) can give their consent?

If you take the defintion of rape as 'to force someone to have sex when they are unwilling', the act of consent is removed from the equation - the police / social services / whoever may not always get it right, but the laws (in this case those governing statutory rape) are there to protect everyone, whether they are 6 or 60.

Re: another abuser caught
 

its a murky world we live in.

Re: another abuser caught
 

I personally think emotion should be left out of most debates, focus on the issues repercushions and what can and cannot be gained.

I think punishment for punishments sake is the least honourable aim of the justice system, so rehabilitation or counceling should be exhausted before life imprisonment or castration:rolleyes: occurs.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Emotion should always be left out of reasoned debate. As soon as you introduce emotion, reason often goes out the window.

But, a subject such as this will always stir emotions within people.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Lets then throw this into the debate...
....just to show that the age of concent is a bit like the speed limit
(I do not condone underage sex, but what is underage-for the human race?)

Re: another abuser caught
 

Yes, but cases like those get much less coverage and the attitude often seems to be "lucky boy" rather than "poor girl".

"Paedophilia" or "Child Abuse" are not legal terms. The sentences depend on the ages involved and sex of the victim.

The first important age is 13, below that the penalties are more severe, up to life imprisonment.

For more info, see http://www.rapecrisis.co.uk/police_reporting4.htm (although that site seems to be a little out of date as it implies that it is still an offence for a man and a woman to engage in consensual anal sex)

Re: another abuser caught
 

Yawn. Is this the best you can do?

You *think*...!!!

Unfortunately it does not "make for a healthier debate" because when emotion becomes involved, rational thought tends to go out through the window. There are innumerable examples of this in these forums alone!!!

Yes, but you, yourself said (I quote) "This is the scenario that frightens the public"

Yet this scenario is actually *extremely* unlikely! However because it is "emotional" any *rational* consideration of the risks is overwhelmed.

Ah, *more* reasoned debate... :rolleyes:

In 2001 over five *THOUSAND* children were killed or seriously injured in accidents on Britain's roads.

http://www.theaa.com/staticdocs/pdf/...ild_safety.pdf

Can you *really* just ignore that with a glib comment??

Yes, I agree it is a shame, however until you have the ability to read people's minds or peer into the future, the next best option is to give them psychological counselling, put them on the sex offenders register and monitor their behaviour, to try to *prevent* them from re-offending.

Re: another abuser caught
 

I'm sorry, Stuartbe, but this is *EXACTLY* what I am talking about when I refer to "Appeal to Emotion".

I am *not* forgetting about the child, however neither am I forgetting that *everyone*, *including* the child *and* the offender have rights!

If we forget that, if we allow emotion to override reason, we risk allowing lynch law, we risk damaging our system of justice and we risk losing those principles by which we call ourselves "civilised".

Re: another abuser caught
 

The brutally objective fact is that, for the human race, once a girl has started her periods she is capable of reproduction, it's as simple as that.

The other fact to consider is that as I've mentioned in debates like this before, "childhood" is a modern concept and the product of our "luxury" and "free time" society.

For the majority of human existance, there has been no such thing as childhood, children were additional workers, given the "light" jobs that they could do whilst everyone else got on with the "heavy" work.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Sorry - The offenders rights go down the toilet when he/she kills or abuses a helpless child as far as I am concerned and thats something that No One can change my mind about it... I have seen the damage that these **** bags do to children and its not nice.. Nightmares for years - crying themselves to sleep and not coming out of there shell for years...

Oh and since when has our so-called justice system been working ? How many court cases have you been envolved with where someone who is blatently guilty walks becouse of some quick talking baraster ?? Well I have seen a few !

Sorry m8 - but its this namny pamby cover them in cotton wool and " what about the poor criminal " bleedin heart liberal attitude that is going to be the ruin of this country.... How about addressing my question about the 20+ charitys/services there for the criminal and the one service for the victim !

You do something wrong - You pay for it - Its THAT simple !

Thats my feelings and I think you will find that they are the feelings of the majority of people !

Nothing personal - I am sure you are a nice guy but your prioritys are well screwed up !!!!!

Re: another abuser caught
 

In which case I see little point in responding to this futher, since reasoned debate is clearly not possible here.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Couldn't agree more. Well said Stu! :tu:

Re: another abuser caught
 

Correct... Thats all I have to say. :)

We will have to agree to disagree on this one Graham...

Re: another abuser caught
 

Obviously the child should be helped sparing no expense, but inflicting pain on the criminal is not going to help the child recover.

Strange how people are more eager to discuss ways of punishing a criminal instead of helping a child.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Could not agree more - thats why I raised the point about the 20+ charities for the criminal and the 1 for the victim !

Re: another abuser caught
 

BBC2 tonight 9pm

Police Protecting Children

A pedo ring is smashed by the police.

Saw a bit on Richard and Judy, looked good.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Erm, unless I am very much mistaken, our justice system tries hundreds (if not thousands) of cases each year. We hear about the failures, but how many cases do we hear of? Three, maybe four big ones? How many does the press ignore?

Now, I don't have the exact figures of how many cases tried, and how many appeals won, but I am sure that the amount of times when our system of justice has failed is minimal compared to the number of cases tried.

Re: another abuser caught
 

The trouble is that one failure is one to many ! If it lets a dangerous pervert walk the streets !

Re: another abuser caught
 

Yes as it has sod all to do with what we are talking about.

:tu: :tu: :tu: :tu: :tu:

Re: another abuser caught
 

I'm sorry but a 100% successful conviction rate while at the same time ensuring innocents aren't convicted is impractical.

I don't think the choice of either to punish or not to punish is the argument here. But rather what the punishment should be, is it possible to rehab and should we attempt to rehab.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Yes.. I am all for rehab... But if it does not work then he/she needs to be locked up.....

Half the problem is --- How do you tell that he/she is rehabilitated ?

Re: another abuser caught
 

Agreed :tu:
If they ever re-offend, they should be locked up?

Re: another abuser caught
 

The problem is that its to late then... The damage is done !

Re: another abuser caught
 

That's the nature of the justice system, you can't punish someone before they've done anything.

If you offer assistance you can encourage them to come forward for the help, but few would volunteer for prison.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Agreed.... There is no perfect solution... Though I do feel that if they have ofended once then they should be watched....

What about radio tagging thats discreet for the wearer... If they go near a school or playpark then it signals the police ?

Re: another abuser caught
 

I think that would be an expectable compromise.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Anyone watching the program on BBC2?
The ordinary pedo gets riot dressed police smashing down their doors mob handed, but Pete Townsend gets forewarned and has press officers and the gently gently approach.

OMG just seen some dumb blond holding up a sign saying 'shut down the site, NOT PETE'

Eh? why? keep the site up as a honeytrap and arrest Pete as a pedo surely.

Re: another abuser caught
 

(Sarcastic mode on)
Yes but he wasn't really a paedo was he - he was only doing it for research :rolleyes:
(Sarcastic mode off)

Re: another abuser caught
 

:rolleyes: :D

I think we hear him being interviewed too.

Re: another abuser caught
 

You may not be aware of this, but the actual *aim* of our system of justice is *not* to punish the guilty, but to *prevent* the innocent from being convicted. That is *why* we have principles such as "innocent until proven guilty".

Yes, sometimes someone slips through the net. Yes, sometimes mistakes are made (on both sides!), but I think what we have is better than any other system.

Re: another abuser caught
 

Well since you have snipped everything else, it appears we're now talking about nothing, except, perhaps, the following...

Which, I think, says it all.

Re: another abuser caught
 

You are of course entitled to you opinion m8... I respect that....

As I said before - we will have to agree to dissagree...

And yes I am aware of how our justice system works ! I have been envolved in many court cases ! how many have you been envolved with ?

Re: another abuser caught
 

Hence the unsurprising non-take up of the recent offer that people who had down-loaded kiddie porn from the net could get their computers "cleaned" of it, but *only* if they put their names down on the sex offenders register!

What a brilliant idea *that* was... :rolleyes:

Re: another abuser caught
 

An interesting concept, but what sort of radius do you put on it? Is 500 yards too close? What if that's three streets over? What about sweet shops? What about if they get on the bus that the kids catch from school, but two stops down the line so they're out of the restricted area?

I'm sorry if people think I'm being negative or "not supplying solutions", but the fact is that any system can be beaten if someone wants to try hard enough.