Immigrants allowed in unchecked
 

LinkFFS :disturbd:...thats one way to run a country :rolleyes:

Re: Immigrants allowed in unchecked
 

Well Ramrod, another controversial thread. I do agree, but I guess there will be a few bleeding hearts that don't. But dont be fooled by their propagander after all it was the Tories that let the them in to start with, Labour just ballsed it up even more (but what haven't they screwed up?).
My theory is, sucessive govenments let in immigrants to keep the wages down that way they keep big business happy and keep us peasents in our place!!
Viva the revolution, let there blood line our streets, only then will they listen!

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Yeah I guess it is another controversial thread.

This will continue to rumble on ad infinitum until some real action is taken.

We will have an election in this country within the next year or so, the party that lays out clear plans to deal with the situation, to give help where there is genuine need whilst remembering the natives of this country who are also in need, will surely find favour with the electorate IMO.

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I think that unfortunately it will end with spilt blood some time in the future, things can only get worse for this country. People from other countries even think the same and cant understand how this little island with very few reserves can be expected to support every tom, dick or harry that decides to make this place their home.

The warning signs are there, action will only be taken when things get totally out of hand and there is lots of violence. I am not condoning it but I have the sense to realise where this will all end up! :shocked:

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Re: Immigrants allowed in unchecked
 

its all coming out now isnt it , i just dont understand this country , i reckon we should be more like australia and lock em all up before sending them back or letting them in if they are deemed suitable , too bluddddddy soft we are :mad: :mad: :mad:

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We are 'soft' because of human rights laws but I wonder why the human rights of the dead (and those yet to die in future atrocities) are not considered. It seems to be a worse crime to inconvenience people in the name of fairness than to allow that fairness to facilitate mass murder.
*edit* I think I've confused this thread with the one about the Madrid bomb blasts :disturbd: :dunce:

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too many human rights and not enough human responsibilities

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My parents are trying to move to move permanantly to the US, and they want me to follow. Its currently been 6 years and many thousands of pounds, they are still only 75% the way there, and thats not even including me, thats still to be paid for. I wish they would just skip a load of key checks were skipped for them and they were just let them in.

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I dont understand how we can give refuge to illegal immigrants.... lets say for example, they have come from the former eastern bloc. Refugees are supposed to stop in the first safe country that they arrive in. To get to the UK they have to travel through Czech republic...Austria... Germany... Luxembourg... France... then the UK. Are none of these countries safe?!

I have no problem with people wanting to migrate to the UK, infact, my g/f came here from Thailand, BUT i expect people who want to migrate to do it through the correct channels. Apply for a visa, pay the money, have the interview etc.

The immigration system needs to be dramatically changed, but it is too much of a political hot potato to ever have any drastic changes made to it.

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yes they are , we are just too soft :mad: :mad: :mad:

for me , when they get over the channel and are picked up , they should be sent straight back :mad: :mad: :mad:

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Even if the report is true, The immigrants still have to deal with the large amount of resentment and racism that some of the public seem to think they have the right to inflict upon these people, many of them are genuie and are fleeing from abuse of there nations powers and again most of them (even those not escaping politiical issues) provide a service to the british people.

Where would the NHS be without people from outisde the UK? While some of them may misuse the service this is more than made up for by the fact that the NHS is being saved by outside workers.

The Issue is never black and white and we must be careful about this

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i don't think raping 3rd world countries of their medical staff is something to be proud of.

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From what I understand they were people already living here but applying to work/start their own business

Re: Immigrants allowed in unchecked
 

Damien - with respect as a 17 year old it is all very well to support a 3rd term when you don't have to pay for that 3rd term.

The NHS may be being saved by these outside workers, but the domino effect is that the healthcare systems of the Phillipines and many other countries are being decimated by our poaching of staff. The Indian doctors who moved over here and propped up the NHS in the 60s wanted to come here with their families and integrate.

Those fleeing abuse from their nations should be glad to settle in any safe nation, Germany, France etc, they migrate here as the benefits system supports them to a far more generous (though in reality hardly generous) level than in those countries.

And then, the costs of supporting this do not come from your wage packet. I'm sure you will still be pro-Blair when you are 21 and graduating having had 3 years of limited support from the Government and been university educated while the system was in a state of transition and scholarships and bursaries from alumni were not in place to support the educational institution going forward.

That said - I'm glad that as a 17 year old you have decided to opt into the political decision making process and make your views known. Too many of your peers don't care and then get mad when they can vote but don't and don't see change.

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Careful, your bordering on the patronizing there SMHarman, I'm 21, I'm in full time education at Uni and I support New Labour, and happy to stand up and be counted.

Just because someone is younger or paying less tax than you doesn't mean their views are less considered than yours.

In regard to poaching staff from abroad, are you as moral when it come to purchasing items that were made in the middle/far east? Where workers are aid a pittance by the multi nationals?

But as you so rightly said, there a far too many people that complain about the systems and policies in place but don't bother going and putting that little x in the box.

Maybe people will this time, after all the media are gunning for the labour government at the moment, but I'm sure a short stint in "Howards 50's" will remind people why Labour were voted in last time :rolleyes:

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One *slap*

Very true.

But a pittance to us (say 3p a day) is a good wage in a lot of countries, and if we don't buy their stuff, then they'll be out of jobs.
Pressure by the west to have these people paid more can result in hyper inflation. Just look what's happened to house prices because couple's disposable incomes have increased so much in the past 10 years.

Yup, voter apathy is a terrible thing :(

Or more accurately why the tories were voted out :D
Tho I bet the tories (that's the real tories, not new labour) have learnt their lesson and once they get back in after the next election, we can get back to fixing the country.

It's interesting how labour on one hand can talk about increasing the security checks of immigrants, yet let in huge numbers without checks on their validity etc just to fudge the figures.

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But we could pay them a decent wage comarable to the west and enable their goverements to get sufficent tax revenue to build up their countries like we have.

I don't think they have learnt a thing, they have similar policies to when they were thrown out of power, the latest idea is to take the countrie back to the 50's :eek:

Really though it wasn't a government official that approved their applications (for what ever it was) it was a civil servant. I agree it shouldn't have happened, but the MP's in charge of these departments don;t actually work down the immigration processing office standing over the workers. They are told by the management what's happening and let the managers do the running of the offices, just as it has been done for years.

You can't hold the cabinet minister for the Benefits agency responsible for every tom dick or harry that starts giving out free money to people can you?

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But with the wages going up, you either get the nike shoe makers becoming equivalents of millionaires in their nation, or everyone from private car mechanic to civil servant has to get an equal increase in pay, where's that money coming from?
And sure, people earning more means they pay more taxes, but the things those taxes get spent on also would cost more, so it negates the benifit.


But they weren't thrown out of power by the great unwashed because of their policies, they were thrown out because of their sleaze and people had lost confidence in them thanks to the media.
I'm hoping labour will be out next election so they can't do any further damage.
Since they came in, I'm worse off, everyone I know is worse off, even my ex, who is a working single parent is worse off!
We've had umpteen dozen strikes.
The fuel blockades.
Safe conservative councils having their gov council tax contributions reduced to rediculous amounts.


Yes you can. That's the point of having a minister. They are responsible for what their department does. If a member of their department does something like this, in breach of department and gov policy, and at risk to the nation, then the minister obviously has allowed incompetancy within the dept managment. A good manager knows what his staff is doing and so would be aware of such a breach.
A few years back, when politics was done with more honour, ministers would resign for such incompetance, but with tony, it just isn't happening.
He won't even accept his own responsibilities and deal with the whislte blower who's being punished (but wait, isn't this gov supposed to be pro wistle blower?)

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I see where you're coming from, but how can these countries be expected to compete in the "world market" thats been created with the tiny amounts of money they have?



I guess you can't please all of the people all of the time :pease:

edit I wonder what the x million who are back in work think? :scratch:



If a teacher slaps a student in a school in Manchester at 9.00am while the minister for Education is in a meeting in Southampton, how on earth can you hold that minister responsible for the incident? I just cant see the direct link :disturbd:

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Thank you. I'm happy you said bordering on. I re-read this carefully before I posted it because of that. For the same reason I wrapped up the post with the positive comment about opting into the political decision making process. It wasnot meant to patronise, but merely as a frustration from someone who feels battered from both sides by this government. Pay more tax to support better services, but as you are a middle class, middle income earner don't expect any support from us as a government.

In many respects I am happy to be paying the level of tax I am. It means I earn a good salary for a start. The problem I have with our current tax system is its lack of transparancy and the fact that instead of breaking a stupid election pledge not to raise direct taxation we are creating a mountain of indirect taxations and a further mountain of staff to monitor, collect and process them. Would I prefer 1% on income tax or NI. No real difference in my pocket, but a helluva processing difference for those who had to rewrite their payroll apps to cope with the new NI bands.

I've studied accountancy, i've studied tax and when I can't understand my self-assesment tax return who can? And thats the stuff you declare on a tax return, then there is VAT, Road Tax (Vehicle Excise Duty for the pedantic), Road Fuel Tax, Gas and Electricity VAT, VAT on compulsory insurance premiums (4% of your car insurance premium goes to the govt.). Council Tax, Stamp Duty, Tax on Savings (which I paid tax on before I put them in the bank), Inheretance Tax (hang on didn't these assets get Income Tax and VAT and Stamp Duty on them when they were bought?). I could go on. As a sole earner in my house, the fact that Mrs H's personal allowances cannot be shared with me - If they are personal why can she not give them away? means that our take home pay would be significantly more if there were two earners on half the pay.

My concern is where this tax take goes. Genuine asylum seekers should be supported. We don't have a good infrastructure for this, so fortunes go to slum hostel landlords for putting them up in poor conditions at £100+ a night. Westminster and Wandsworth Council (amongst many others) spend £ÃÆ ’‚£Ãà¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚£Ãƒââ‚ ¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚£ a night in this manner. As a council tax payer it is frustrating to think that your annual bill of say £1400 will be in the hands of a private landlord within a fortnight because of the capacity crunch and their ability to charge such rates.

Healthcare. The system is good in parts, but not enough for me to trust it fully, like I would the French or German systems, so I buy (through a company group policy) BUPA cover, an expense that could be considered a tax in many respects. As a private home owner there is no safety net from the govt if I lose my job (unlike a renter has) so again another policy as the state does not cover me.

The government takes nearly 40% of the nations wealth. Up from 37% when they came into power. The government now has 8% more money than when it came to power where is that going. I wish I had an 8% payrise over the last few years.

Is this possible in todays global economy? The skill base has moved and we no longer produce many goods to enable you to buy british. I hope the manufacturers I buy from use good supply chain management, but in the same way we are now exporting call centre jobs we exported these roles for a lower cost base many years ago. If we are paying a fair market rate to the country then the whole transaction should be fair. A lot of this production has been exported to China which has now become one of the powerhouse economies of the world. Surely this is a benefit in both directions.

Perhaps - I'm one of those who have lost trust in this government economically. That is more a finger pointed at Brown, not Blair. Be transparent. Admit that to put 30 years of underspending right will hurt, but dont try to pretend we can have jam today and tomorrow.

Oh and I so nearly had the next green pip (he says preparing for the neg rep).

Re: Immigrants allowed in unchecked
 

But on the flip side when My MP contacted the MP responsible for Immigration, Naturalisation etc, we got a simple immigration approval for Permanent Leave to Remain escalated up the process by the end of the week. The Ministers do have the power.

In the same way, when corporate scandles occur, we expect those at the top to have been aware, or have had the management information and the cognicence to understand it. After all thats why they are there.

This is a problem of the governance system. Those who want to be MPs by default should not be allowed to be, those who don't and are capable or running great corporations on the other hand should be running government departments and running them with the efficiency of major corporations.

Re: Immigrants allowed in unchecked
 

They've got a huge advantage with the world market. That's why coffee companies, nike, several banks and other companies have so many employees over there.
Cheap labour force relative to the UK for instance when you take the exchange rate into account.
Excellent export oppertunities if they have a manufacturing base.
People get worked up that in some parts of the world the average wage is $1 a month, but fail to take into account in those parts you can buy a house for $12 (ok made that figure up but you get the gist of what I mean)


Exactly how has the gov managed to do that?
Haven't heard of any tax incentives for companies like Nissan recently.



It is the minister's responsibility to see that something is done about it, ie an investigation and the teacher dealt with.
If the minister fails to do this, then they are not doing their job.
If I remember correctly about the immigration case, the whistle blower has been suspended, and the civil servants who were involved in letting it happen are getting off scott free.
And then you have the minister responsible for the civil service refusing to do his job.

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I think this sums it up for many of the people that won't be voting for LAbour this time around, maybe its time they did something about it.

I try to reserve them for the people that can't put a coherent argument together :)

edit I was going to rep you Xac as well as SMHarman, but I only did it yesterday for another thread so I can't :(

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One example of an initative the goverment brought in is New Deal, somthing The torys have pledged to scrap when if tehy get back in power



I beleve in this case the minister has arranaged an investigation, but people calling for her head isn;t going to fix the problem. :)

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Just done it for you m8 :)

Good posts !

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New Deal, same old spin

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1218169.stm

So according to official figures, employment rose faster and unemployment dropped faster under the last few years of the tories than it has under labour, even with the new deal...



So why is the whistleblower being punished and not those who actually let it happen?
Why is the minister for the civil service ignoring his duties?

Re: Immigrants allowed in unchecked
 

Green reps all round :)

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Cheers Stu
:)

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But we're now a the lowest level of unemployment for donkeys years:

The number of unemployed people fell from 2.9 million in 1993 to 1.5 million in October-December 2001

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=697


I believe that its because he didn't use the official channels available to him :shrug:

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We have to pay for goverment noo matter what party is in charge so everyone has to pay or not pay it makes no diffrances whos actually in goverment. Hense money has no part in it. Unless you want taxs to be cut that is.

Also when the election rolls around I will be ready to vote.

Also I support the paying fees for UNI as it means more places which incrases my chances and i dont have to pay till i start work :)

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you only need look on the guardian's job section to see where the unemployed and tax's are going, Nulabour have cornered the marked on expensive non-jobs.

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But thats more likely due to the other factors which produced such a rapid drop when the tories were still in power, than anything the gov has done.
They've just been lucky in coming up with schemes which have cost a fortune but give very little extra benifit.


And surely if he didn't go through proper channels, there is more reason for the minister of civil servants (TB) to get involved? Or at least have the decency to meet with him and discuss things.
The whistle blower is being punished for going public and making the gov look bad. It's simply revenge by the gov and his managers by not giving him the support the gov says whistleblowers should have.

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Some good point Xaccers and SMHarman.

Just as an aside... The very definition of corporate delegation, is that you give someone else a job, but you remain responsible if anything goes wrong. I'm assuming it is the same for government delegation. If this government minister passes immigration laws down to civil servant managers, then it is the minister's responsibility to make sure that the figures aren't being fudged or checks aren't being carried out.

SMH, what exactly did you mean by: "Mrs H's personal allowances cannot be shared with me"?

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Or a manager below her.

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Well as the minister is the one presenting the facts to parliment, surely they are ultimately responsible to ensure that the information is accurate. I'm sure a political party worthy of being in power would do that.
Oh well, maybe we'll get one after the next election :D

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who?

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We'll have to wait and see.
Hopefully not labour.

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without wishing to inflame the thread , would any other party do any different than labour have done , promise the earth to get elected then ***** on the ppl who voted them in to power :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

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Reminds me of some grafiti "there's no point voting, the goverment always wins"

We'll have to wait til election year I suppose before we get any "promises" from the other parties.
Doubt they'll make the same 5 "promises" that Labour did.



PS didn't think you were mate. tis a valid concern :)

Re: Immigrants allowed in unchecked
 

Say you have 2 people earning 35000 a year or one earning 70000

For each of the two people
0-4615 = no tax
4616-6536 @ 10%
6537-35000 @ 22%
Total Tax each 6,453 in total 12,906

If only one earns the combined amount
0-4615 = no tax
4616-6536 @ 10%
6537-36437 @ 22%
36438-70000 @ 40%
Total 20195

So the same starting income, yet the household ends up with 7288 pa or 607 a month less as the non working partners allowances go unused.

Thats the point about sharing allowances. Many countries allow it, after all the same number of mouths need feeding and by only one of the household working it can mean employment opportunities for other households.

In this example the 70k sounds a lot, 35k seems more normal for someone in the south of england. For two 35k incomes to be replaced with one income, that income needs to be 82,000 thats the difference the tax policies make on income tax.

Though a non working spouse apparantly spends less on clothes, travel, food, work costs etc.

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Minister authiorised immigration
The lying cow! :afire:

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I honestly believe that given the current state of immigration of this manner into the country and the large dual standards in treatment of people within the country, which see immigrants get any and absolutely anything they want, and people unemployed left to struggle with a system very much against them.

I believe this will only see militant / heavy handed parties get into power eventually, such as the BNP, which will be a sad step backwards for us as a nation.

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Untrue. Asylum seekers only get 70% the amount that someone on jobseeker akowance gets. They want to flee from persecution, although generally it must seem that they are fleeing to persecution im sure judging by the way they are treated.

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I know largely thats set to change now apparently, but theres still cases ive known that have really made me laugh there.

Ive known immigrants to be bought cars and stuff where I live to allow them to get to work, as getting them a minibus to take them back and fore work was too expensive in comparison.

My friends aunt sold a car to one person like that and was paid with a girocheque, when she said you cant pay with that, the immigrant gave her a letter off the DSS/Job Centre, I forget which at this time, she rang the number that the person gave them with it to confirm the payment was legitimate.

I didnt see the Job Centre offer to buy me a car when I was unemployed for a year to get about like that.

and in answer to your other point I noted.

Why does this "persecution" exist that their fleeing to ?

Largely because of the way in which the media reports on these matters, its a seemingly slow attempt at introducing the fear culture that resides in countries like america as I see it myself.

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Finally!

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Once again this minister has proven that when faced with difficult situation/question the instinctive action of this government is to lie.

They clamed middle managers did it without their knowledge. They instigated an "Internal enquiry" that supposedly proved this?

When the second accusation came about she stood up in parliament and claimed she knew nothing about it.

She lied, Blunket lied and only when there was absolutlely no visible avenue of escape, when it became clear that there was evidence she did know about it, she jumped.

Then they have the cheek to call her person of integrity.

This government are as corrupt and deceitful as any Tory government. In fact the tories are looking a lot more attractive by the day

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Yup, just shows you cannot trust any of them. I also expected more integrity from female ministers :(

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Perhaps she forgot, I imagine she gets a lot and things and this probably was considered low priority at the time :dozey:

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aye,

Look at everything blair has done and achieved in his time in power, time for people to bring about the end of his reign, Gordon Brown would have probably been a better candidate than him within that party. As I still cant see the Tories making any sort of decent government either.

It honestly still makes me laugh how blair can never answer a question straight as well.

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I would have thought it difficult for an immigration minister to ascribe a low priority to warnings of an immigraion scam ...

More likely she gambled that none of this would come out, or that if it did, people would understand. There's something about the political mindset that ensuers some people, on attaining real power, often get so convinced of their own uprightness that they genuinely can't see when they've done something wrong.

Blair has on more than one occasion been accused of having just such a 'Messiah complex'.

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Indeed - thats what her junior ministers and High level civil servants are for - to make sure she does not forget this kind of memo / statement. IMHO She knew she had said it.

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Why should immigrants come over here and get free health on the NHS when we go over to forigen countries and we have to pay for it. Its a bit silly really.

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That is a bad generalisation, Most Immigrants bring someone to the countrys. Again a lot of shortages in the NHS are helped with the introduction of immigratiants as staff.

Also if there are legal and start working (like most do) then THEY are also paying for the NHS and are part of the UK just like you. No-one has more 'right' to live here than anyone else!

Where you born does not matter.

Also what about those coming over fleeing bad goverments? In Nazi germany a lot of people from poland came over here (especcialy Jews) but we didnt let too many people come over and a lot of them where killed.

We should keep a open mind instead of jumping into the hype and causing hatred