Originally Posted by Geoff103

Has anyone else figured out how, when on NTL digital cable TV, how to record a digital channel on DVD recorder (or VHS tape for that matter) while still being able to watch live another digital channel?

Is the only answer to have two STBs?

Originally Posted by Alanmelon

Given that you can't even purchase a simple Pace stb which will operate on ntl's network, let alone one with a DVD Recorder, I can't see this happening for a while.

Originally Posted by Geoff103

It's all a bit pathetic, isn't it.

VHS manufacturers gave their recorders an analogue tuner from Day 1. DVD recorders should - given their digital nature - have been equipped with a DTT from the start.

Originally Posted by paulyoung666

i have seen a dvd player with a freeview box built in but not a dvd recorder :(

Originally Posted by Geoff103

There doesn't seem much point to that!

There's a basic economic argument here:

1) VHS players are now commodity items with low margins in a nearly mature market. Little incentive for the main brands
2) DVD recorders are new with high prices and higher margins into an immature market.
3) Potential 'early adopters' are more likely to be digital tv users (whether by cable, satellite or terrestrial) than analogue users.
4) First to market with a recorder with digital tuner secures an immediate advantage.
5) Failing an internal digital tuner, why not 'bundle' the recorder with an add-on DTT set-top box? Though this is an imperfect solution since according to the Freeview Postcode checker, DTT is not available here (Farnham, Surrey)

Having defined the problem and found no solution, I WILL NOT purchase a DVD recorder with only an analogue internal tuner.

:mad:

Originally Posted by chambece

The only possible way to get something similar, is via the sky+ but I don't even think that has got two 'tuners', but then you have to have sky - so what's the point in the DTT?

Originally Posted by chambece

But that's it - early adopters will either have SKY, NTL, or freeview - or more than one - if people get thier DTV from sky or NTL, then a DTT decoder in the box will be no good

Originally Posted by chambece

Unfortunatly, this is the way things work - You're right - (most) VHS recorders did get tuners analog tuners from day 1, although I'm sure that just like you can find video *players* you can find recorders that will just record from an AV source - I'm thinking for things like CCTV.

And the other thing is, although they had tuners in since day 1, when NICAM came out it'd probably take untill the majority of the country had NICAM TVs before most videos were made nicam by default...

the other thing is now how many videos can you get that record SVIDEO, or RGB? And how many people couldn't get DTT through their exsisting ariels or due to location, and would moan if it didn't come with a normal tuner?

Originally Posted by Geoff103

I agree, it's second-best solution but, while I have NTL cable, there's still an external terrestrial aerial outlet in my TV room and a DVD recorder with integral DTT tuner would - with appropriate cabling between various boxes and my Plasma screen allow recording one digital channel while watching another at the same time.

Does everyone who hooks up to cable, immediately have any external aerial removed? I doubt it.

So, I suppose I could look at a Freeview box - though DTT is currently not receivable in my part of Farnham!

Originally Posted by SMHarman

Post 1000 :eek: here goes...

When VHS was brought out there was only one flavour of transmission UHF. No DTT, CATV, SatTV so putting a tuner in was a no brainer, the same one could / would be used by all. Nobodies going to bother putting any alternative kind of tuner in a VHS these days they are made with pennies of profit margin now. Look at the spec on your average £60 player, Nicam stereo, SVHS play and NTSC playback, things that would have cost £400+ a few pre digital years ago.

Now there are four flavours of digital TV transmission, all requiring different hardware and their network providers marketing competing products (sky+ and similar products exist on the US cable networks).

For this to work you would need a modular decoder slot which you could put the relevant hardware into to enable you to decode your broadcast source. This would not really work for the cable providers as they bring their own hardware. It could work well for Sky and DTT (and DTT+ TopUp, but would require some opeing up of the CATV networks.

Personally I would have thought that HDD recording with a DVD archive function would be the way forward though.



And poor in my part of Hertford, as is analoge terrestrial, probably why there is a good takeup of cable and sky in the area so yes I still have a £250 areial on the roof, but the reception despite spending a fortune (when NTL said no service existied outside my house) is still pants and not worth recording. The pass through on the NTL cable does much the same trick (no Channel 5 vs poor reception of C5).

Originally Posted by Proppinupthebar

You would need seperate demodulators (SKY- QPSK,DTT- COFDM) and then a Common Interface slot into which you slot the required descrambling module (into which you add the smartcard). Sky won't allow a CI module to be produced.

Originally Posted by BaconSarnie

You can get a VHS VCR with a Freeview decoder in it (and a 7-day EPG if you're in Wales). You can also get a few HDD recorders with Freeview decoders. There a rumors of HDD/DVD recorders with Freeview or Cable decoders in them.

More info at: http://www.pvruk.co.uk/

Originally Posted by SMHarman

and NTL / Telewest will?

Originally Posted by Proppinupthebar

Nagra CI interfaces are available as is the kit that they fit into. I have two different manufacturers test kit with CI interfaces and appropriate cards.
They are not however available to Joe Public and won't work as they need setting up on the central Conditional Access sytem.

Originally Posted by Geoff103

All I want is to watch digital cable TV and have the opportunity to record another digital channel on a DVD recorder.

And be able to buy it Dixons and self install.

:angel:


Is that really too much?

Originally Posted by Geoff103

All I want is to watch digital cable TV and have the opportunity to record another digital channel on a DVD recorder.

And be able to buy it Dixons and self install.

:angel:


Is that really too much?

Originally Posted by SMHarman

And if a mrf built it would NTL set it up on the CCAS?
I would imagine Sky would soon cave if NTL/TW/FV all had plug and play functionality to a Sony/Panasonic HDD/DVD/DigiTuner box and they did not.

Originally Posted by Proppinupthebar

Fair point, no ntl would not add Joe Publics kit to the CAS!!!

Originally Posted by Proppinupthebar

Snowballs and Hell come to mind regarding Sky and a CI module tho. They already have 7 million subscribers, and I can't see people leaving them for this functionality.

Originally Posted by Proppinupthebar

Again I will point out tho that the broadcasters will not be happy with perfect recordings which can be copied and swopped between people.

Originally Posted by SMHarman

Sky plus records the digital stream. Recording must be falling in popularity as the number of +1s and Mix channels increase. E.g Friends is now on E4 then E4+1 then later that evening (and +1) then Second Chance Sunday (&+1) then on C4 the next week and I'm sure there is a C4 repeat too.

Originally Posted by Proppinupthebar

The point is you can't take the HD out of Sky + and swop it to your PC and then burn copies of entire series of friends etc. With a DVD recorder you could.

Originally Posted by SMHarman

Yet at the moment they won't provide their own equivilant either. My Mother in Law has the SA8000 box, its fantastic. I want one. The product exists, all NTL has to do is work out the monthly rental and start installing them.

Originally Posted by SMHarman

Why can't you? Surely you could write an app to access the FAT of the Sky+ HDD, so you can see the stream. The next problem is decoding it. That would be difficult as you point out the snowballs in hell and modular sky cards scenareo, but ultimately not impossible in time.

I'm sure this can be done with the SA8000 as that must record the decoded stream as you have quality options, thus it is already possible in the US, the biggest market. That box has Firewire and USB2 on it so connecting the HDD to the PC must be a breeze.

Originally Posted by Proppinupthebar

As far as I know the encryption is left on the SKy + recording. If you remove your smartcard then I don't think you can watch the recording (that may only be the premium stuff tho). If you buy a PPV movie on Sky + you have a limited time to watch the recording.

Originally Posted by Proppinupthebar

Tivo in the UK uses a different file formatting so that you cannot transfer your recordings onto a PC for copying and distribution.

Originally Posted by SMHarman

As I assumed - mentioning snow in sunny climbes



So nobodies written conversion software yet?

Originally Posted by chambece

From what I understand you can get tivo streams to your PC so you could burn them to DVD.

The other thing is if I recall correctly the Sky+ box does *not* have two 'tuners' . It has two LNB inputs allowing you to see two sat streams at once, and if you record, it simply dumps the stream to the HD - no decoding, or encoding is done. So as you only are able to watch one thing at once, you only need one decoder. I suppose the LNBs are 'tuned' but you get what I mean. This is obviously different from tivo, which encodes a video stream, just like the DVD recorders, so if you wanted to make a DTT DVD recorder, you'd need two tuners, and the associated codecs.....

As as someone already mentioned, your sky card then decodes the 'incoming' stream....

Originally Posted by Proppinupthebar

How can you get two streams into the box then? You have to demodulate the signal to recover the stream. To demodulate you need a tuner. Two streams then two tuners.

Originally Posted by Proppinupthebar

You can get the recording from a Tivo onto your PC but its not a standard function, and its naughty so don't do it !!! :)

Originally Posted by Proppinupthebar

Sorry mate missed that bit!!!

Originally Posted by Proppinupthebar

Fair point, no ntl would not add Joe Publics kit to the CAS!!!

Snowballs and Hell come to mind regarding Sky and a CI module tho. They already have 7 million subscribers, and I can't see people leaving them for this functionality.

Again I will point out tho that the broadcasters will not be happy with perfect recordings which can be copied and swopped between people.

Originally Posted by SMHarman

Why can't you? Surely you could write an app to access the FAT of the Sky+ HDD, so you can see the stream. The next problem is decoding it. That would be difficult as you point out the snowballs in hell and modular sky cards scenareo, but ultimately not impossible in time.

Originally Posted by nialli

Does anyone have any suggestions before I go out and buy a DVD/HDD recorder next month? I've got a Pace 2000 NTL box and want to be able to record RGB. I think my only option of the current boxes available is either of the Panasonic models, but I'm not sure if they work okay with NTL. Also, does the widescreen formatting get recorded onto DVDs or HDD?