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-   -   Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=6821)

Ramrod 25-01-2004 22:04
Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
It seems we aren't praying enough
Quote:
ATTENDANCE at Britainââ‚à ‚¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s mosques has outstripped the number of regular worshippers in the Church of England for the first time.

Mal 25-01-2004 22:15
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
This weekend David Hope, the Archbishop of York, second in the church hierarchy, conceded defeat. His spokesman said: †œThe archbishop acknowledges the overtaking of Church of England numbers by the Muslim community. But he believes that many more people have an affinity to the church than the number recorded as having attended once on a Sunday.ââ‚à ‚¬Ã‚
Are we in a competition now, to see how many each can get in? :confused:

TigaSefi 25-01-2004 22:15
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Well Muslims have far more kids than any other races and more of the kids are dragged to mosques as tradition than we drag our kids to so there for it most likely that this will happen.

Xaccers 25-01-2004 22:24
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigaSefi
Well Muslims have far more kids than any other races and more of the kids are dragged to mosques as tradition than we drag our kids to so there for it most likely that this will happen.
*cough* catholics with kids *cough*

As for dragging, that's the difference between "christians" and muslims.
"christians" don't take their religion seriously (I don't mean christians, but "christians" are those who claim to be CoE etc but don't really believe) whereas muslims do.
As for muslims having more kids, most I know only have 2.

Ramrod 25-01-2004 22:27
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
I keep saying to my 'vicar patient' that we need more 'fire and brimstone' in the C of E to compete in the world wide religion business. :D

Julian 25-01-2004 22:50
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
*cough* catholics with kids *cough*

As for dragging, that's the difference between "christians" and muslims.
"christians" don't take their religion seriously (I don't mean christians, but "christians" are those who claim to be CoE etc but don't really believe) whereas muslims do.
As for muslims having more kids, most I know only have 2.
As a parent, I will not decide what faith my children will or won't follow. I will leave it up to them to choose later in their lives. :)

I do not see it as my place to force my beliefs upon them.

Steve H 25-01-2004 22:56
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Christians dont force there religion on there own.

Nor 25-01-2004 22:57
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Gah it says I need to spread it around abit when I try and rep you Julian :) Thats my sentiments exactly though.

You know that islam is the fastest growing religion in the US after 9/11. Think its the fastest growing religion anywhere though. One thing I don't like about the muslim religion is their attitude to non muslims. Not sure about this one, perhaps its a myth, but thought it was their duty to convert people to Islam aswell. I don't care what religion people are really, treat everyone the same.

Julian 25-01-2004 23:21
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Judging by the positive rep response I got to my earlier post it seems that quite a few people share the view that children should able to make up their own minds. :)

As Xac rightly said, devout muslims will bring their offspring up to follow their faith and will frown upon any deviation.

If I'm not mistaken this also applies to other faiths as well.

Bifta 25-01-2004 23:24
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod
I think you'd be hard pressed to find a muslim let alone a mosque over here, it's quite eerie at times, lot's of asian (chinese mainly) people, very few black people, haven't seen one pakistani/indian in literally months.

Xaccers 25-01-2004 23:41
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nor
Gah it says I need to spread it around abit when I try and rep you Julian :) Thats my sentiments exactly though.

You know that islam is the fastest growing religion in the US after 9/11. Think its the fastest growing religion anywhere though. One thing I don't like about the muslim religion is their attitude to non muslims. Not sure about this one, perhaps its a myth, but thought it was their duty to convert people to Islam aswell. I don't care what religion people are really, treat everyone the same.
We can share the rep I gave him :)

I think you're getting muslims mixed up with JW's (just kidding)
I've never known a muslim to try and convert someone (pity the same can't be said for christians)
Islam is a very tolerant religion, it's just that people (as with all religions) warp it into what they want.

kronas 25-01-2004 23:43
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian
As a parent, I will not decide what faith my children will or won't follow. I will leave it up to them to choose later in their lives. :)

I do not see it as my place to force my beliefs upon them.

you have just earned a rep sir, well said.

i think its because muslim parents tend to be very religious and so instill that in to there children, i have certainly experianced watching that to be the case, muslims tend to be more strict with there children in this respect.

EDIT can someone rep julian on my behalf please i cant need to spread...... :)

kronas 25-01-2004 23:48
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nor
You know that islam is the fastest growing religion in the US after 9/11. Think its the fastest growing religion anywhere though. One thing I don't like about the muslim religion is their attitude to non muslims. Not sure about this one, perhaps its a myth, but thought it was their duty to convert people to Islam aswell. I don't care what religion people are really, treat everyone the same.
you are correct, it is there 'need to convert' that annoys me i got in to a situation where one of my new found freinds who i recently became freinds with a few months ago, started talking about it, making my views clear he decided to 'educate' me i repeatdly said ' i do not want to know' but he said i must know 'i was born in to it' suffice to say he gave up in the end, else i would have walked out of the freindship i dont like people imposing anything on me unless i accept it whatever it maybe.

Mal 25-01-2004 23:55
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronas
you are correct, it is there 'need to convert' that annoys me i got in to a situation where one of my new found freinds who i recently became freinds with a few months ago, started talking about it, making my views clear he decided to 'educate' me i repeatdly said ' i do not want to know' but he said i must know 'i was born in to it' suffice to say he gave up in the end, else i would have walked out of the freindship i dont like people imposing anything on me unless i accept it whatever it maybe.
I agree with you there. That's how I feel, I don't like people imposing their views on me. It tends to get the opposite reaction from me. I might even agree in principle, but I'll go opposite just because of the way the other person's presented their case. :shrug:

Julian 25-01-2004 23:58
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronas
you have just earned a rep sir, well said.

i think its because muslim parents tend to be very religious and so instill that in to there children, i have certainly experianced watching that to be the case, muslims tend to be more strict with there children in this respect.

EDIT can someone rep julian on my behalf please i cant need to spread...... :)
S'ok you can do it later. ;) :)

It's the reason why despite pressure from within the family I would not have my children christened. It would also be hypocritical to go through a "ceremony" involving commitments which I could not commit to.

Unfortunately a christening seems more an excuse for a few drinks than a true understanding of the obligations undertaken at the time.

kronas 26-01-2004 00:01
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal
I agree with you there. That's how I feel, I don't like people imposing their views on me. It tends to get the opposite reaction from me. I might even agree in principle, but I'll go opposite just because of the way the other person's presented their case. :shrug:
ill take the persons view on board and think and give a sensible reply, i know religion means alot to people, but i get jumped at for questioning it, id rather be educated about diffarent religions, then remain ignorant i say that its all a 'fairy story' but i still want to know(sometimes) i can learn from it........

kronas 26-01-2004 00:08
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian
S'ok you can do it later. ;) :)
ok *hopes he remembers :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian
It's the reason why despite pressure from within the family I would not have my children christened. It would also be hypocritical to go through a "ceremony" involving commitments which I could not commit to.
i very much agree with your thinking very wise, just a question how would you feel if your child turned to islam or any other religion would it matter ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian
Unfortunately a christening seems more an excuse for a few drinks than a true understanding of the obligations undertaken at the time.
as with many situations the culture is to drink, and remember and be merry that IMO is wrong if you go to a persons funeral especially your family's often the words 'lets get a nice stiff drink down us' comes in or 'lets remember him by getting a drink ' and i think to myself what are these people doing, its a somber time and you should have time to think, take in your loss...........

Mal 26-01-2004 00:09
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronas
ill take the persons view on board and think and give a sensible reply, i know religion means alot to people, but i get jumped at for questioning it, id rather be educated about diffarent religions, then remain ignorant i say that its all a 'fairy story' but i still want to know(sometimes) i can learn from it........
With me, I get annoyed when I think that people are trying to tell me what I should believe in.

This is the first "religion" thread that I've posted in, as what I believe in is that everyone is entitled to their views/beliefs.

Mal 26-01-2004 00:13
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronas
i very much agree with your thinking very wise, just a question how would you feel if your child turned to islam or any other religion would it matter ?
I know this was posted to Julian, but I think if my child was happy and comfortable with choosing Islam then that would be okay with me.

Julian 26-01-2004 00:13
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronas
ok *hopes he remembers :)
:D



Quote:
i very much agree with your thinking very wise, just a question how would you feel if your child turned to islam or any other religion would it matter ?
It will be their choice Kronas, same as whether they choose to have boyfriends or girlfriends. :)



Quote:
as with many situations the culture is to drink, and remember and be merry that IMO is wrong if you go to a persons funeral especially your family's often the words 'lets get a nice stiff drink down us' comes in or 'lets remember him by getting a drink ' and i think to myself what are these people doing, its a somber time and you should have time to think, take in your loss...........
For some the drink is a release I suppose. Trouble is reality is there in the morning. :(

kronas 26-01-2004 00:21
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian
It will be their choice Kronas, same as whether they choose to have boyfriends or girlfriends. :)
great we agree again :D :wavey:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian
For some the drink is a release I suppose. Trouble is reality is there in the morning. :(

i dont think there is a valid excuse for it, it can destroy you in the end especially being in a fragile mental state.

you can escape from it all for a few hours, but back in to reality you still have to deal with it.

xaq141175 27-01-2004 07:33
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod
anglican church isn't so focused on communal rituals, more on personal relationship with god than islam is ... i'm not sure i could hack praying 5 times a day ... seems a little obsessive to me.

Russ 27-01-2004 07:53
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod
I'm not surprised - Anglican often seem to view their weekly service as a chore.

Quote:
It's the reason why despite pressure from within the family I would not have my children christened. It would also be hypocritical to go through a "ceremony" involving commitments which I could not commit to.
Indeed - why commit your children to something that they have no say in? Biblically it means nothing.

swoop101 27-01-2004 08:19
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronas
as with many situations the culture is to drink, and remember and be merry that IMO is wrong if you go to a persons funeral especially your family's often the words 'lets get a nice stiff drink down us' comes in or 'lets remember him by getting a drink ' and i think to myself what are these people doing, its a somber time and you should have time to think, take in your loss...........
In quite a few societies the idea is to celebrate the life of the departed.
I know of a number of people who left instructions that they were not to be mourned, but to be remembered with joy that they were loved by all.

I know that others feel completely the opposite.

In a previous job, when I got news that my Gran had passed away, a fellow worker who was an Indian gentleman could not believe that I did not want to go straight home to mourn the sad event. I explained to him that although I was very upset, there was nothing that I could do at that time and that I would join the family later in the day.
He then made the statement that ' The British people' had always fascinated him by our ability to carry on under the most trying of situations.

He meant it, and I took it, as a compliment.

OT i know but I thought it appropriate

Ramrod 27-01-2004 14:17
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nor
You know that islam is the fastest growing religion in the US after 9/11. Think its the fastest growing religion anywhere though.
On that note, this is very interesting reading. Changed my outlook a little :)

Julian 27-01-2004 14:27
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod
On that note, this is very interesting reading. Changed my outlook a little :)
Yes a VERY interesting article RR. :)

It does put things into perspective somewhat.

kronas 27-01-2004 14:44
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod
On that note, this is very interesting reading. Changed my outlook a little :)

a interesting article indeed, it just shows the manipulation the media can portray, the reason islam is a fast growing religion is because of the structure of it, it represents/encourages peace not war, sadly as the article said a tarring of the same brush right across the board on muslims is inevitable.

basa 27-01-2004 14:55
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
Islam is a very tolerant religion, it's just that people (as with all religions) warp it into what they want.
Hmmm....very tolerant ??? (More interesting reading)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Forum (apols B ;)
Quran:

[4.56] (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall
make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We
will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement;
surely Allah is Mighty, Wise."

[22:19-22] But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire
will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their
heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too,
will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in
their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back
therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning.

[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore
make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those
who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every
fingertip of them.

[58:5] Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be crumbled
to dust, as were those before them: for we have already sent down
Clear Signs and the Unbelievers will have a humiliating Penalty

Sahih Muslim
Book 019, Number 4366:
It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger
of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and
Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.

Sahih Muslim
The Book of Faith (Kitab Al-Iman)
Book 001, Number 0033:
It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the
Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people
till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the
messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they
do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf
except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day,
nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor
follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book,
until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in
a state of subjection.

[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near
to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with
those who guard (against evil).

[4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this
world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah,
then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty
reward.

[9:5] But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the
Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in
wait for them in every stratagem

Quran:
[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for
friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes
them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not
guide the unjust people.
Terrorism is a logical outcome of putting the Qur'an into practice.

The Qur'an promotes permanent struggle against non-Muslims - or at
least until non-Muslims are converted to Islam, subjected to Islamic
authority, or killed. Below is a listing of relevant verses in the
Qur'an.

Quote:
(Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay
them (Q. 9: 5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are
Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty
tax(Q. 9: 29).

It orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other
religion except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193).

It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink
boiling water (Q. 14: 17).

It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet
of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with
disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world
hereafter (Q.5: 34).

As for the disbelievers, it says that for them garments of fire
shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling
water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be
dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods
(Q. 22: 9).

Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tells
clearly that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q.3: 85).

It relegates those who disbelieve in Quran to hell (Q. 5:11),
calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9: 28).

Quran prohibits a Muslim to befriend a non-believer even if that
non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim
(Q. 9: 23), (Q. 3: 28).

Quran asks the Muslims to strive against the unbelievers with
great endeavor (Q. 25: 52), be stern with them because they
belong to hell (Q. 66: 9).

The holy Prophet demanded his follower to strike off the heads of
the disbelievers then after making a wide slaughter among them,
carefully tie up the remaining captives (Q. 47: 4).

As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men
and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are
found disobedient (Q. 4:34).

It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to
their husbands (Q. 66:10).

It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (Q. 2:228).

It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance
(Q. 4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that
their witness is not admissible in the court (Q. 2:282).
A woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless
she can produce a male witness. Muhammad allowed the Muslims to marry
up to four women and gave them permission to sleep with their slave
maids and as many captive women as they may have (Q. 4:3).
He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues
another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape
their women.

Pakistani soldiers raped up to 250,000 Bangali women in 1971 after
they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious
leader decreed that Bangladeshis are unislamic. This is why the
prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women and then
kill them after calling them apostates and the enemies of Allah.

Ramrod 27-01-2004 15:08
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
All in the name of religion :( :mis:

Flubflow 27-01-2004 15:16
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
I think Islam could do a lot more to distance itself from those radicals that give it a bad name. By the same token the Catholic and Protestant leaders in N.Ireland could also do a lot more to help stamp out sectarianism.
Just a thought.

kronas 27-01-2004 15:22
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod
All in the name of religion :( :mis:
if i feel better later on, im going to show my religious freinds those quotes, i bet he wont believe it :D

but if i was to come out in to the public domain and say i dont believe this etc etc

two things would happen

A) i would get sat down by people and get 'taught' islam by them.

B) the idiots would come around to my house :mad:

BTW the option B was threatened once and you should have seen the aggression i dished out i got up pointed at the guy in an angry face and said to him "DONT YOU DARE DO THAT I CONTROL WHO COMES IN TO MY HOUSE"

scared him off :rofl:

Flubflow 27-01-2004 15:31
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod
All in the name of religion :( :mis:
Of course, what often happens next is that some religious smoothy comes in and starts saying things like, "oh it doesn't really mean that literaly and transposed into a modern context it really means...blah blah b/s blah". You know, like what some bible bashers here do.

Russ 27-01-2004 15:41
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flubflow
Of course, what often happens next is that some religious smoothy comes in and starts saying things like, "oh it doesn't really mean that literaly and transposed into a modern context it really means...blah blah b/s blah". You know, like what some bible bashers here do.

Are you referring to me?

Graham 28-01-2004 03:42
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basa
Terrorism is a logical outcome of putting the Qur'an into practice.
Pardon me, but *rubbish*!

There is *no* logical connection between the two unless you start with some *extremely* flawed premises.

Quote:
The Qur'an promotes permanent struggle against non-Muslims - or at
least until non-Muslims are converted to Islam, subjected to Islamic
authority, or killed. Below is a listing of relevant verses in the
Qur'an.
Have you ever listened to a fundamentalist right wing evangelist *Christian* preacher? Promising hellfire and brimstone for all those who aren't saved? Saying that anyone who hasn't accepted Jesus as their saviour is damned for all eternity?

As with all holy books (except for *very* short ones!) they can be made to "prove" anything the reader wants.

Quote:
A woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless
she can produce a male witness. Muhammad allowed the Muslims to marry
up to four women and gave them permission to sleep with their slave
maids and as many captive women as they may have (Q. 4:3).
Sorry, where in the Koran does it say that "A woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness" or are you conflating the Koran with Sharia law?

Quote:
He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues
another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape
their women.
And, of course, similar atrocities have *NEVER* been committed by *ANY* other armies of *ANY* other countries... :rolleyes:

It's very easy to "prove" how "barbaric" a certain group is if you pick and choose your "evidence"...

Russ 28-01-2004 07:48
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Have you ever listened to a fundamentalist right wing evangelist *Christian* preacher? Promising hellfire and brimstone for all those who aren't saved? Saying that anyone who hasn't accepted Jesus as their saviour is damned for all eternity?
So what's wrong with that?

basa 28-01-2004 08:24
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Pardon me, but *rubbish*!

There is *no* logical connection between the two unless you start with some *extremely* flawed premises.



Have you ever listened to a fundamentalist right wing evangelist *Christian* preacher? Promising hellfire and brimstone for all those who aren't saved? Saying that anyone who hasn't accepted Jesus as their saviour is damned for all eternity?

As with all holy books (except for *very* short ones!) they can be made to "prove" anything the reader wants.



Sorry, where in the Koran does it say that "A woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness" or are you conflating the Koran with Sharia law?



And, of course, similar atrocities have *NEVER* been committed by *ANY* other armies of *ANY* other countries... :rolleyes:

It's very easy to "prove" how "barbaric" a certain group is if you pick and choose your "evidence"...
You are of course correct that many if not most religions, even christian ones promote a 'struggle' against the non believers or infidels, (erm but aren't all religions just a different form of worship of a deity called god or allah or whatever nonsense). :confused:

The big difference is, it is evident Islam is on the increase and is far more vigorously promoted today than christianity and further that 'struggle' is, by all the evidence, far more insidious and often violent.

Islam IMO does appear to promote itself, via the many vociferous fundamentalists, much more aggressively amongst not only its 'followers' (to ensure continued compliance) but even more so against the 'non believers' i.e. the west.

Of course it is easy to choose the 'evidence' to prove the barbarity, but it appears to me it is the many fundamentalists that choose these paths of 'struggle against the infidels', I merely point out the documented reasons they use. :(

Graham 29-01-2004 02:19
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
So what's wrong with that?
I didn't say there was anything *wrong* with that (although I have my own opinions on what they're saying).

My point is that if someone's going to criticise *one* religion for behaving in a certain way, if they wish to be seen as having an unbiased viewpoint they should point out that it's not just that *one* religion that behaves that way.

Graham 29-01-2004 02:23
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basa
The big difference is, it is evident Islam is on the increase and is far more vigorously promoted today than christianity and further that 'struggle' is, by all the evidence, far more insidious and often violent.
"By all the evidence"? Or only by all the "evidence" that you've heard, or perhaps only by all the evidence you're willing to *listen* to?

And "insidious"? Why does that sound like "the insidious international communist conspiracy"?

And finally, yes, there are violent Muslims. There are also violent Christians.

Quote:
Of course it is easy to choose the 'evidence' to prove the barbarity, but it appears to me it is the many fundamentalists that choose these paths of 'struggle against the infidels', I merely point out the documented reasons they use. :(
And there are also many Muslims who, because they preach moderation, don't get *heard* in the Western press because their views don't provide rabble-rousing headlines about the "threat" of Islam...

basa 29-01-2004 09:23
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
"By all the evidence"? Or only by all the "evidence" that you've heard, or perhaps only by all the evidence you're willing to *listen* to?
The evidence I refer to is there written in the quran, that together with what I see in the media regarding the activities of al'queda (and the taliban before them), various bombings worldwide and...oh yes, 9/11.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
And "insidious"? Why does that sound like "the insidious international communist conspiracy" ?
Who mentioned communism ? By insidious I meant that some of the less savoury aspects of Islam (such as suppression of women) are less well known and rarely mentioned although they are an intrinsic part of the way Islam is used to subjugate its followers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
And finally, yes, there are violent Muslims. There are also violent Christians.
Can't disagree, and I don't condone violence carried out in the name of chritianity either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
And there are also many Muslims who, because they preach moderation, don't get *heard* in the Western press because their views don't provide rabble-rousing headlines about the "threat" of Islam...
Maybe they should shout as loud as the fundamentalists. Maybe they are scared they will be 'downsized' !

I wonder why those who promote voilent struggle in the name of religion are referred to as 'fundamentalists' ?? i.e. maintaining traditional beliefs ? :confused:

Ramrod 29-01-2004 10:03
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Have you ever listened to a fundamentalist right wing evangelist *Christian* preacher? Promising hellfire and brimstone for all those who aren't saved? Saying that anyone who hasn't accepted Jesus as their saviour is damned for all eternity?
That doesn't have any relevance here because the christian promises hellfire in the next life whilst the muslim (if the quotes on this thread are to be accepted) promises to do nasty things to non-believers in this life.

Russ 29-01-2004 11:26
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
I didn't say there was anything *wrong* with that (although I have my own opinions on what they're saying).

My point is that if someone's going to criticise *one* religion for behaving in a certain way, if they wish to be seen as having an unbiased viewpoint they should point out that it's not just that *one* religion that behaves that way.
Fair point.

Quote:
And finally, yes, there are violent Muslims. There are also violent Christians.
I disagree. There are no violent Christians. If a man (or woman) uses violence and professes to be a Christian, IMO that is not possible. What you do have is people who use violence in the name of Christianity, which is entirely different.

True Christians don't go around smacking people about, attacking people, or flying planes in to buildings.

kronas 29-01-2004 15:26
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
I disagree. There are no violent Christians. If a man (or woman) uses violence and professes to be a Christian, IMO that is not possible. What you do have is people who use violence in the name of Christianity, which is entirely different.
no russ in every race religion around the world, there are violent people in it to say christianity has none is absolutely ignorant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
True Christians don't go around smacking people about, attacking people
how do you know that ? you cant account for every christian ?

Russ 29-01-2004 15:30
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronas
no russ in every race religion around the world, there are violent people in it to say christianity has none is absolutely ignorant.
No, true Christian teaching does not advocate the use of violence. Violence in the name of Christianity is not that is taught in the Bible. I did not say Christianity has none of these people buy they are not true Christians IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronas
how do you know that ? you cant account for every christian ?
As above. Being a Christian isn't just name, it's a way of life, a whole belief system, a lifestyle.

Graham 30-01-2004 03:21
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basa
The evidence I refer to is there written in the quran, that together with what I see in the media regarding the activities of al'queda (and the taliban before them), various bombings worldwide and...oh yes, 9/11.
And there are quotes from the bible which can be used to justify almost anything. And the media are generally *not* what I would call "unbiased". And there are people committing acts of terrorism that aren't Muslims. Oh, and most Muslims disown the September 11th terrorists as not being Muslims as far as *they* are concerned.

If you pick and choose the "evidence" you accept you can prove anything you want. (Or someone else will do it for you cf Hutton, oops, sorry :notopic: )

Quote:
Who mentioned communism ?
Communism, Islam, Catholicism, unions, Jews, it matters not what the name is, there is always *something* that someone will claim to be an "insidious threat" to our way of life or world peace or democracy...

There's always a "bogeyman" out there that can be exploited by those who seek or hold power to scare the "ordinary people".

Quote:
By insidious I meant that some of the less savoury aspects of Islam (such as suppression of women) are less well known and rarely mentioned although they are an intrinsic part of the way Islam is used to subjugate its followers.
And once again we see the "big brush" technique used to tar *all* of Islam with the "less savoury" actions of a *minority*.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
And there are also many Muslims who, because they preach moderation, don't get *heard* in the Western press because their views don't provide rabble-rousing headlines about the "threat" of Islam...
Maybe they should shout as loud as the fundamentalists. Maybe they are scared they will be 'downsized' !
Maybe the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Pope should also "shout as loud" as them... :rolleyes:

Graham 30-01-2004 03:23
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod
That doesn't have any relevance here because the christian promises hellfire in the next life whilst the muslim (if the quotes on this thread are to be accepted) promises to do nasty things to non-believers in this life.
An interesting caveat there "IF the quotes on this thread are to be accepted" (my emphasis).

I don't accept them as being representative of *all* Islam.

Graham 30-01-2004 03:25
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
I disagree. There are no violent Christians. If a man (or woman) uses violence and professes to be a Christian, IMO that is not possible. What you do have is people who use violence in the name of Christianity, which is entirely different.

True Christians don't go around smacking people about, attacking people, or flying planes in to buildings.
Oh Russ, Russ, Russ!!!

That is as perfect an example of Special Pleading as ever I have seen!!

If they call themselves Christian, but they don't behave in the way that you think they do then they're not "True Christians", yet you don't seem to be able to extend that to Islam!

I'm sure that there are many followers of Islam who will also tell you that "True Muslims don't go around smacking people about, attacking people, or flying planes in to buildings"!

Chris 30-01-2004 03:28
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
<snip>Maybe the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Pope should also "shout as loud" as them... :rolleyes:
Personally I wish the Archbishop of Canterbury would ... however there's little chance of that. The former Archbishop was an Evangelical (like me!) but got bogged down in political correctness and bending over backwards trying never to offend anyone rather than saying what he actually believes and accepting that someone, somewhere will always disagree with you to the point of getting offended. The current one ... well, I'm not sure he actually believes in half of what the Bible says, so I'd rather he didn't shout about anything. :D

As for the Pope ... well, his Christianity has strayed so far from what the Bible says I'd be happy for him to go unheard as well.

I am well aware that this post quite nicely illustrates much of what has been said in this thread - one man's Christian is another man's heretic!

Russ 30-01-2004 07:49
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Oh Russ, Russ, Russ!!!

That is as perfect an example of Special Pleading as ever I have seen!!

If they call themselves Christian, but they don't behave in the way that you think they do then they're not "True Christians", yet you don't seem to be able to extend that to Islam!
Oh Graham, Graham, Graham! The reason I don't extend that to Islam is that I don't know enough about islam to make a reasonable point about them! Unlike many people on this site, if there is a religion or faith that I know little or nothing about, I don't make comments or assumptions about them!!!

Ramrod 30-01-2004 08:30
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
An interesting caveat there "IF the quotes on this thread are to be accepted" (my emphasis).

I don't accept them as being representative of *all* Islam.
Of course they aren't representative of all of Islam but they are representative of some of Islam, whereas I am not aware of any Christians who use that approach in their dealings with members of other religions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Communism, Islam, Catholicism, unions, Jews, it matters not what the name is, there is always *something* that someone will claim to be an "insidious threat" to our way of life or world peace or democracy...

There's always a "bogeyman" out there that can be exploited by those who seek or hold power to scare the "ordinary people".
Just because you call them bogeymen doesn't mean that some of them aren't a threat....communists for instance

Graham 30-01-2004 13:37
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
Oh Graham, Graham, Graham! The reason I don't extend that to Islam is that I don't know enough about islam to make a reasonable point about them! Unlike many people on this site, if there is a religion or faith that I know little or nothing about, I don't make comments or assumptions about them!!!
But, by implication, because you *don't* extend it to Islam, you *are* accepting the claims and making the assumption that the people who "go around smacking people about, attacking people, or flying planes in to buildings" are "True Muslims"!

If you don't know the full facts it is only reasonable to extend the benefit of the doubt.

Russ 30-01-2004 14:01
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
But, by implication, because you *don't* extend it to Islam, you *are* accepting the claims and making the assumption that the people who "go around smacking people about, attacking people, or flying planes in to buildings" are "True Muslims"!
Just your opinion, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
But, by implication, because you *don't* extend it to Islam, you *are* accepting the claims and making the assumption that the people who "go around smacking people about, attacking people, or flying planes in to buildings" are "True Muslims"!

If you don't know the full facts it is only reasonable to extend the benefit of the doubt.
I find the wisest option is when you don't know the full facts, make no comment. I get frustrated when I try to have a serious discussion with people on here and they aren't in possession of the full facts. Their opinions are no less important but it's hard to take them seriously when they display "pub-land facts" or "armchair expert" knowledge.

It's from commenting without knowledge that we get such gems as "religion should be banned because it causes wars" etc

Theodoric 30-01-2004 14:18
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
<Snip>It's from commenting without knowledge that we get such gems as "religion should be banned because it causes wars" etc
I'd agree that that particular comment is stupid. However, I would claim that history gives examples of wars that have been caused by religion. Specifically, I'd quote:

1) The Wars of Religion in 16th Century France.

2) The Hussite wars of the 15th Century.

3) Dare I mention it, yes, go on! The Cusades.

Now, it can be argued that the real cause of these wars was not religion, but such things as economics etc. I'd be prepared to consider this as a possible explanation for the Crusades, eg land hunger of younger sons of European nobility, but I believe that the French religious wars (the Huguenots vs the Catholics) had a genuine religious component.

Graham 30-01-2004 14:22
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod
Of course they aren't representative of all of Islam but they are representative of some of Islam, whereas I am not aware of any Christians who use that approach in their dealings with members of other religions.
http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=5005

'Shortly after the 9/11 attacks, [Ultra-conservative pundit Ann Coulter] offered this solution to the problem of global terror: "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." Her statement prompted the National Review to drop her column.'

http://www.salon.com/opinion/letters...5/army_of_god/

'American terrorist Clayton Waagner, who in the fall of 2001 gained a place on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list after sending anthrax threats to abortion clinics across the U.S. What was most remarkable about the trial, wrote Clarkson, was the "near-complete lack of media attention that it attracted,"'

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/U..._040122-1.html

'"As cream rising to the top of the milk, so the Christian terrorist rises above the huddled masses of churchgoers and the many voices which denounce their violent attempts to defend the innocent from they're [sic] murderous assailants," Chuck Spingola wrote in a posting on the Army of God Web site.'

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in524268.shtml

'â₠œThe Jews need conversion,ââ ¡Ã‚¬Ã‚ says Kay Arthur. †œThey need to know that the Messiah is coming. And the Bible tells us whatââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s going to happen.ââ‚à ‚¬Ã‚ [...]

'The Christian fundamentalists believe the only Israelis who are really listening to God are the hard line Jewish settlers who live on the West Bank and Gaza and refuse to move.[...]

'They believe that God gave the land of Israel to the Jewish people. [...]

'What about the three million Palestinians who live on the West Bank and Gaza? McAteer suggests the bulk of them could be cleansed from this God-given real estate and moved to some Arab country. Nothing can come between the Jews and their land.

'In fact, many fundamentalists believe that when Prime Minister Rabin signed the Oslo accords and offered to trade land for peace, it was not only a mistake, it was a sin.

'â₠œThey were going against the word of God. You cannot go against the word of God. And I believe that God stopped it ... by the things that happened.â₠¬Â says Arthur. She hints that God punished Rabin by assassinating him.'

And that's just a few examples a quick google finds. Just because we don't hear about them much, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Quote:
Just because you call them bogeymen doesn't mean that some of them aren't a threat....communists for instance
Just because we consider the West to be the "Good Guys" doesn't mean that some of *them* aren't a threat either. George W Bush et al, for instance!

Graham 30-01-2004 14:27
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
I find the wisest option is when you don't know the full facts, make no comment.
In which case you're making as big a mistake as the "armchair experts" whom you decry, just from the opposite direction.

They say "oh, it stands to reason that all Muslims are terrorists", but by saying nothing because you don't have "the full facts" means that you can't (or won't) say "but, hang on, are you sure that they *all* are? Surely some of them deserve the benefit of the doubt"

It's that old "innocent until proven guilty" thing...

Russ 30-01-2004 15:43
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodoric
I'd agree that that particular comment is stupid. However, I would claim that history gives examples of wars that have been caused by religion. Specifically, I'd quote:

1) The Wars of Religion in 16th Century France.

2) The Hussite wars of the 15th Century.

3) Dare I mention it, yes, go on! The Cusades.

Now, it can be argued that the real cause of these wars was not religion, but such things as economics etc. I'd be prepared to consider this as a possible explanation for the Crusades, eg land hunger of younger sons of European nobility, but I believe that the French religious wars (the Huguenots vs the Catholics) had a genuine religious component.
As you'll be aware I've never said that religion has never had an involvement in wars and yes, the Crusades were were pretty grime times but then again, they were Catholics who, it could be argued have been known for promoting more than a degree of self-interests.


Quote:
In which case you're making as big a mistake as the "armchair experts" whom you decry, just from the opposite direction.

They say "oh, it stands to reason that all Muslims are terrorists", but by saying nothing because you don't have "the full facts" means that you can't (or won't) say "but, hang on, are you sure that they *all* are? Surely some of them deserve the benefit of the doubt"
Yes of course they deserve the benefit of the doubt but you are implying something by my silence! I have not given my opinion on Muslins/Islamics because I would prefer to be more knowledgeable before commenting however I will agree that such knowledge is not required to question - that's how I learn about such things.


And I would like to distance myself from the comments made by Ann Coulter et al in your post - extremist views from anyone in authority will never do any good.

Xaccers 30-01-2004 18:41
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
In which case you're making as big a mistake as the "armchair experts" whom you decry, just from the opposite direction.

They say "oh, it stands to reason that all Muslims are terrorists", but by saying nothing because you don't have "the full facts" means that you can't (or won't) say "but, hang on, are you sure that they *all* are? Surely some of them deserve the benefit of the doubt"

It's that old "innocent until proven guilty" thing...
What about Russ' innocence?
You've convicted him of thinking that true muslims go around beating people about the head, without even trying to find out if that was actually what he thought.

Russ 30-01-2004 20:12
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
You get used to it after a while on here.....

Ramrod 30-01-2004 21:33
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=5005

'Shortly after the 9/11 attacks, [Ultra-conservative pundit Ann Coulter] offered this solution to the problem of global terror: "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." Her statement prompted the National Review to drop her column.'
Did her words spur christian suicide bombers into action? Did she hijack anything and kill muslims with it? No. She was just another Kilroy-Silk mouthing off, nothing more.

Quote:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/letters...5/army_of_god/

'American terrorist Clayton Waagner, who in the fall of 2001 gained a place on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list after sending anthrax threats to abortion clinics across the U.S. What was most remarkable about the trial, wrote Clarkson, was the "near-complete lack of media attention that it attracted,"'

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/U..._040122-1.html

'"As cream rising to the top of the milk, so the Christian terrorist rises above the huddled masses of churchgoers and the many voices which denounce their violent attempts to defend the innocent from they're [sic] murderous assailants," Chuck Spingola wrote in a posting on the Army of God Web site.'

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in524268.shtml
What have Christian anti-abortionists got to do with all this. We are discussing the fact that we get some muslims trying to kill us because we are not muslims and you provide evidence that christians are violent towards abortionists :confused:

'
Quote:
†œThe Jews need conversion,ââ ¡Ã‚¬Ã‚ says Kay Arthur. †œThey need to know that the Messiah is coming. And the Bible tells us whatââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s going to happen.ââ‚à ‚¬Ã‚ [...]

'The Christian fundamentalists believe the only Israelis who are really listening to God are the hard line Jewish settlers who live on the West Bank and Gaza and refuse to move.[...]

'They believe that God gave the land of Israel to the Jewish people. [...]

'What about the three million Palestinians who live on the West Bank and Gaza? McAteer suggests the bulk of them could be cleansed from this God-given real estate and moved to some Arab country. Nothing can come between the Jews and their land.
Removed and re-settled, not suicide bombed. Nothing in the above quotes indicates that christians are homicidally inclined towards muslims purely because of their faith.

Quote:
'In fact, many fundamentalists believe that when Prime Minister Rabin signed the Oslo accords and offered to trade land for peace, it was not only a mistake, it was a sin.

'â₠œThey were going against the word of God. You cannot go against the word of God. And I believe that God stopped it ... by the things that happened.â₠¬Â says Arthur. She hints that God punished Rabin by assassinating him.'

And that's just a few examples a quick google finds. Just because we don't hear about them much, doesn't mean they don't exist.
You have shown us a load of extremist christians but I don't see any christian 727 hijackers or suicide bombers mentioned there.
Try harder :)
......anyhoo...even if you find one christian who has actually killed muslims for religious reasons you still have to balance that against the daily atrocities meted out by some muslims against others because they aren't muslim.



Quote:
Just because we consider the West to be the "Good Guys" doesn't mean that some of *them* aren't a threat either. George W Bush et al, for instance!
So what? You said that we create bogeymen where there are none. I merely pointed out that some of those are real, not imagined.

Graham 31-01-2004 00:16
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
Yes of course they deserve the benefit of the doubt but you are implying something by my silence!
No, I am going by the implications in what you *said*!

Let me remind you (and others):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
There are no violent Christians. If a man (or woman) uses violence and professes to be a Christian, IMO that is not possible. What you do have is people who use violence in the name of Christianity, which is entirely different.

True Christians don't go around smacking people about, attacking people, or flying planes in to buildings.
Now you firstly state that a person who uses violence in the name of Christianity is not a "True Christian", you then go on to name a *specific* act committed by Muslims *without* suggesting or even *hinting* that just because they "used violence in the name of Islam" they weren't "True Muslims".

This is precisely why I called it Special Pleading because your implication is "in this case (ie Christianity) it's different", when there is in reality no such difference.

Quote:
And I would like to distance myself from the comments made by Ann Coulter et al in your post - extremist views from anyone in authority will never do any good.
But I'm sure that *they* consider themselves to be "True Christians"!

Graham 31-01-2004 00:20
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
What about Russ' innocence?
You've convicted him of thinking that true muslims go around beating people about the head, without even trying to find out if that was actually what he thought.
If someone uses the fallacy of Special Pleading to claim that "it's different in this case", I'm going to call them on it. If he didn't think it, he wouldn't have said it.

Xaccers 31-01-2004 00:26
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
No, I am going by the implications in what you *said*!

Let me remind you (and others):



Now you firstly state that a person who uses violence in the name of Christianity is not a "True Christian", you then go on to name a *specific* act committed by Muslims *without* suggesting or even *hinting* that just because they "used violence in the name of Islam" they weren't "True Muslims".
Hmm, I fail to see that Graham.
Russ didn't say the hijackers were muslim. They may consider themselves to be muslim, you (if inferred from what you just said) consider them to be muslim ("a *specific* act committed by Muslims").
You therefore (using your arguments against Russ) consider muslims to be terrorists.

But I know you don't. Using a bit of common sense, I can see that even though you refered to the people who flew the planes into the twin towers as muslim, you know that they were not following true islam, but some warped version of it.
Just the same, Russ chose to only deal with the fact that christianity does not teach hatred nor violence, as that is something he knows about for sure.
If he were to extend that to an unknown religion such as islam, then he would be making claims which although he may be pretty sure are true, he would not be able to back up.

Graham 31-01-2004 00:26
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod
Did her words spur christian suicide bombers into action? Did she hijack anything and kill muslims with it? No. She was just another Kilroy-Silk mouthing off, nothing more.
Irrelevant.

Quote:
What have Christian anti-abortionists got to do with all this. We are discussing the fact that we get some muslims trying to kill us because we are not muslims and you provide evidence that christians are violent towards abortionists :confused:
The abortionists may well be Christians, however the anti-abortionists attack them because they don't hold to the same beliefs.

Quote:
You have shown us a load of extremist christians but I don't see any christian 727 hijackers or suicide bombers mentioned there.
Try harder :)
No, Ramrod, *you* try harder to remember what the subject actually is.

Let me quote your words again to jog your memory:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod
I am not aware of any Christians who use that approach in their dealings with members of other religions.
I have just given examples of *exactly* what you asked for, Christians who use hatred and acts of violence and terrorism against those who are either members of other religions or even their *own* religion if those people don't hold to the same extremist views.

Try harder.

Quote:
......anyhoo...even if you find one christian who has actually killed muslims for religious reasons you still have to balance that against the daily atrocities meted out by some muslims against others because they aren't muslim.
Oh! They've killed loads, so that justifies us killing *ONE*? Ye gods... :rolleyes:

Quote:
So what? You said that we create bogeymen where there are none. I merely pointed out that some of those are real, not imagined.
Again you fail to read what I have written <sigh>

Graham 31-01-2004 00:31
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
Russ didn't say the hijackers were muslim. They may consider themselves to be muslim, you (if inferred from what you just said) consider them to be muslim ("a *specific* act committed by Muslims").
You therefore (using your arguments against Russ) consider muslims to be terrorists.But I know you don't.
Good, because that would have been utter nonsense.

Quote:
Using a bit of common sense, I can see that even though you refered to the people who flew the planes into the twin towers as muslim, you know that they were not following true islam, but some warped version of it.
In exactly the same way the extremists whose views I posted in that reply to Ramrod *call* themselves Christian.

Now as to what a "true" Christian, Muslim or whatever is, is down to those who believe in the theology, but that's another discussion entirely.

Quote:
Just the same, Russ chose to only deal with the fact that christianity does not teach hatred nor violence, as that is something he knows about for sure.
Ahem! "Does not"?

I think you mean "Should not"!!

Quote:
If he were to extend that to an unknown religion such as islam, then he would be making claims which although he may be pretty sure are true, he would not be able to back up.
Doubts benefit does not require facts to back it up. That's the whole *point* about it!!

Shaun 31-01-2004 00:32
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
So what's wrong with that?
You aren't being serious are you Russ????? :confused:


If you are then your not the sort of guy I imaged you to be :Yikes:

Russ 31-01-2004 08:38
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Now you firstly state that a person who uses violence in the name of Christianity is not a "True Christian", you then go on to name a *specific* act committed by Muslims *without* suggesting or even *hinting* that just because they "used violence in the name of Islam" they weren't "True Muslims".
Graham you really are jumping to conclusions which simply don't exist. Those who the caused 9/11, I don't know WHAT faith they professed to be but whatever it was, I don't know enough to make a comment on it. I might question it, which is the way I learn about such things, but when it comes to a subject as deep and wide-spread as a religion, I won't comment until I have competant knowledge of it. I just wish certain people would do the same on here.

Quote:
This is precisely why I called it Special Pleading because your implication is "in this case (ie Christianity) it's different", when there is in reality no such difference.
Yes - to me there IS a difference. I know a lot more about Christianity than I do about the Muslim faith.

Quote:
But I'm sure that *they* consider themselves to be "True Christians"!
*They* probably do but if they could show me anything in the NT which promotes their views and ideas I'll admit I'm wrong.

Quote:
If someone uses the fallacy of Special Pleading to claim that "it's different in this case", I'm going to call them on it. If he didn't think it, he wouldn't have said it.
I'm 99% sure you're the only person who thinks I said that.

Quote:
I think you mean "Should not"!!
Nope, Xac was right first time.

Quote:
You aren't being serious are you Russ?????
Too right I was serious. What's wrong with someone preaching what we believe to be the Good News? If you don't want to hear it, walk away.

Ramrod 31-01-2004 10:42
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Irrelevant.
I said:"I am not aware of any Christians who use that approach in their dealings with members of other religions." Did she kill anyone? No. Did any christian kill a muslim because of her words? No.
Therefore, not irrelevant



Quote:
The abortionists may well be Christians, however the anti-abortionists attack them because they don't hold to the same beliefs.
I said:"I am not aware of any Christians who use that approach in their dealings with members of other religions. " We are talking religion here, not abortion.



Quote:
I have just given examples of *exactly* what you asked for, Christians who use hatred and acts of violence and terrorism against those who are either members of other religions or even their *own* religion if those people don't hold to the same extremist views.

Try harder.
I actually said: "I am not aware of any Christians who use that approach in their dealings with members of other religions. " You seem to be answering points that you have added to my origional statement. I suggest that you remember what I actually wrote!
I have highlited the extra words that you have added in your statement above to make it easy for you to see where you have gone wrong.
My original comment refered to acts of voilence or terrorism against people of other religions.



Quote:
Oh! They've killed loads, so that justifies us killing *ONE*? Ye gods... :rolleyes:
Don't put words into my mouth. I didn't say or even imply that.



Quote:
Again you fail to read what I have written <sigh>
:eek:

Russ 31-01-2004 10:46
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod
You seem to be answering points that you have added to my origional statement.
You get used to that with Graham after a while....:D

Stuartbe 31-01-2004 10:46
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
I find this all a bit silly......

Correct me if I am wrong but EVERY religon in the world states something like " love your brother or fellow man " and forbids killing....

Kind of ironic that millions have died fighting for there religeon !!!

Shaun 31-01-2004 13:49
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
Too right I was serious. What's wrong with someone preaching what we believe to be the Good News? If you don't want to hear it, walk away.

But I didn't think you went in for preaching at people who aren't interested, which is what Graham said. :erm:

Hardly "good news" that I'm going to hell, is it? :confused:

Russ 31-01-2004 14:01
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dellwear
But I didn't think you went in for preaching at people who aren't interested, which is what Graham said. :erm:
Well I don't, but for the people who do, how are they to know if someone isn't interested?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dellwear
Hardly "good news" that I'm going to hell, is it? :confused:
I'm pretty sure they preach a little bit more than that.....

Graham 01-02-2004 21:30
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
Graham you really are jumping to conclusions which simply don't exist. Those who the caused 9/11, I don't know WHAT faith they professed to be
Then you are deliberately blinding yourself to the facts. Whatever your opinions of my beliefs are, I do my damndest to be objective and extend the benefit of the doubt, however I can find nothing that gives any reasonable or credible doubt to the claims that the September 11th terrorists called themselves and believed themselves to be Muslims. If you have, please, cite it here.

Oh, BTW, is that a splinter in my eye??

Quote:
but whatever it was, I don't know enough to make a comment on it. I might question it, which is the way I learn about such things, but when it comes to a subject as deep and wide-spread as a religion, I won't comment until I have competant knowledge of it.
And *how* exactly will you learn or gain "competant knowledge" when you keep dodging the issue?

Quote:
I just wish certain people would do the same on here.
Russ, I have just negative repped you for this sort of childish sniping and now you make another petty dig without having the guts or the good grace to use anyone's name. If you mean me, *say* it is me you mean. If it is someone else use *their* name. Don't just sling mud around and hope it sticks because it does your credibility no good at all.

Quote:
Yes - to me there IS a difference. I know a lot more about Christianity than I do about the Muslim faith.
And so, because you lack knowledge, you should give them the benefit of the doubt, rather than implictly apply guilt by association.

Quote:
*They* probably do but if they could show me anything in the NT which promotes their views and ideas I'll admit I'm wrong.
You will have to take that up with them, not me.

Quote:
I'm 99% sure you're the only person who thinks I said that.
Ah, now we have the fallacy of Appeal to Popularity...!

Quote:
Nope, Xac was right first time.
Now we're back to the distinction between "True Christians", ie the ones that Russ agrees with, and those who he disagrees with who are, therefore, not "True Christians"...

Graham 01-02-2004 21:42
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod
I said:"I am not aware of any Christians who use that approach in their dealings with members of other religions." Did she kill anyone? No. Did any christian kill a muslim because of her words? No.
Therefore, not irrelevant
Quoting you from post#40: The christian promises hellfire in the next life whilst the muslim (if the quotes on this thread are to be accepted) promises to do nasty things to non-believers in this life.

I have given examples of *Christians* doing the things that you say *Muslims* "promise to do... in this life".

Quote:
I said:"I am not aware of any Christians who use that approach in their dealings with members of other religions. " We are talking religion here, not abortion.
:rofl: Oh good grief, Ramrod, are you *seriously* trying to suggest that many people's opinions on abortion are *NOT* influenced by religion?!?!

Quote:
I actually said: "I am not aware of any Christians who use that approach in their dealings with members of other religions. " You seem to be answering points that you have added to my origional statement. I suggest that you remember what I actually wrote!
I do remember what you wrote, I've quoted it and now quoted your previous remarks to ensure that the context is clear!

Quote:
I have highlited the extra words that you have added in your statement above to make it easy for you to see where you have gone wrong.
My original comment refered to acts of voilence or terrorism against people of other religions.
Ramrod, I have "added" those words because they are entirely relevant and apposite in the context of the discussion in this thread. And trying to narrow the goalposts to just "people of other religions" ignores the behaviour of groups such as the Taliban against other Muslims who they considered to be "insufficiently (or incorrectly) devout" and this can easily be compared to the behaviour of some extremist Christian groups against *other* Christians.

Graham 01-02-2004 21:45
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod
You seem to be answering points that you have added to my origional statement.
You get used to that with Graham after a while....:D
Well at least this time you had the courage to name me.

Of course despite the smiley it's just a pathetic attempt to smear me without backing it up with anything because there *is* nothing to back it up with.

Russ 01-02-2004 22:01
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Graham, if I am going tomake a comment about you or anyone you can be as sure as s*** that I would name you, as I did above.

In the case of the comment you neg repped me for, I actually was NOT referring to you but if you want to think I was then that's all that matters.

The thing is I and a few others find it very difficult to have a decent discussion with you on certain matters as you constantly take (IMO) rather odd points of view to my and other's comments on the Bible. You are perfectly entitled to disagree with my views but when you start reading things in to matters which aren't there and acting on comments which you "think" I'm trying to make when I've never made or implied them, I'm sorry but I'm going to respond.

Ramrod 01-02-2004 22:10
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Quoting you from post#40: The christian promises hellfire in the next life whilst the muslim (if the quotes on this thread are to be accepted) promises to do nasty things to non-believers in this life.

I have given examples of *Christians* doing the things that you say *Muslims* "promise to do... in this life".
Have you given examples of christian suicide bombers? No. Have you given examples of christians flying planes into buildings? No.
You have given examples of christians saying things but not of christians doing things.



Quote:
:rofl: Oh good grief, Ramrod, are you *seriously* trying to suggest that many people's opinions on abortion are *NOT* influenced by religion?!?!
Of course they are but we aren't talking about them and abortion, we are talking about 'muslims v christians' in the 'terrorism stakes'

Quote:
Ramrod, I have "added" those words because they are entirely relevant and apposite in the context of the discussion in this thread.
that may well be but they aren't relevant when you are disputing a remark that I made and the context that I made it in.
Quote:
And trying to narrow the goalposts to just "people of other religions" ignores the behaviour of groups such as the Taliban against other Muslims who they considered to be "insufficiently (or incorrectly) devout" and this can easily be compared to the behaviour of some extremist Christian groups against *other* Christians.
:eek: I didn't narrow the goalposts, you widened them to try to disprove a statement that I made.


*edit* Ah! I see where the confusion is arising here, It hinges on my use of the word 'promise' :D You think I meant that christians say hateful things as well as muslims (of course they bloody do! :rolleyes: ).
I meant that christians promise hellfire in the afterlife (and leave it to God to deliver) but (some) muslims promise hellfire in this life...and deliver it themselves.
I'm sorry about the confusion :)

Ramrod 01-02-2004 23:08
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
This is heartening. :)
.....till you get to the 4th paragraph from the end:rolleyes:

Xaccers 01-02-2004 23:37
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
And so, because you lack knowledge, you should give them the benefit of the doubt, rather than implictly apply guilt by association.
But Russ didn't implicitly apply guilt by association.
*YOU* are the one applying the guilt by association by saying that because Russ didn't mention that *true* muslims don't also go around flying planes into buildings he is suggesting that *true* muslims *do* go flying planes into buildings.
*YOU* are the one who thinks that Russ was suggesting *true* muslims are terrorists, without asking him to clarify, and when he tells you that what you think about him on this subject is incorrect, you don't listen, instead you continue to accuse him.
Now, what happened to innocent until proven guilty Graham?
Russ no more thinks that *true* muslims are terrorists than you or I do.
You've got the wrong end of the stick.

Graham 02-02-2004 01:13
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod
This is heartening. :)
.....till you get to the 4th paragraph from the end:rolleyes:
Yes, but it's a start!

Remember it's still been less than a century since women got the vote in Great Britain! (1918)

PS thanks for clarifying the confusion.

Graham 02-02-2004 01:18
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
Russ no more thinks that *true* muslims are terrorists than you or I do.
Ahem! I quote Russ from message #48:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ
"The reason I don't extend that
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
If they call themselves Christian, but they don't behave in the way that you think they do then they're not "True Christians", yet you don't seem to be able to extend that to Islam!)
to Islam is that I don't know enough about islam to make a reasonable point about them! Unlike many people on this site, if there is a religion or faith that I know little or nothing about, I don't make comments or assumptions about them!!!"
If he doesn't think it, he should extend the benefit of the doubt. However he does not, he just claims that he "doesn't know enough" to be able to make comments about them", which is a prima facie opportunity to extend said benefit!

Xaccers 02-02-2004 01:25
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ
I disagree. There are no violent Christians. If a man (or woman) uses violence and professes to be a Christian, IMO that is not possible. What you do have is people who use violence in the name of Christianity, which is entirely different.

True Christians don't go around smacking people about, attacking people, or flying planes in to buildings.
So graham, your point is that because Russ didn't say that true muslims also don't go around smacking people about etc he's suggesting that they do?
I'd like to point out that Russ didn't say that jews, satanists, wickers, budhists, hindis, sikhs etc don't go around smacking people about etc.
Does that mean that Russ thinks that these people do?
If it doesn't mean that Russ thinks that these people do, what's different about islam, which Russ also didn't mention in his comment?
I'm a bit confuzzled mum.

And you can't attribute it to post 48 because you started on him before that.

Ramrod 02-02-2004 11:14
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Remember it's still been less than a century since women got the vote in Great Britain! (1918)
Thats a very good point, though I suspect it will take muslims a couple of centuries till their women are more or less equal.

Nemesis 02-02-2004 13:06
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Guys Guys Guys ...

Do we always have to resort to personal attacks in the religous threads.

Russ/Graham, you're rapidly winding each other up, and mis interperating what each other is saying .... in many ways you're both right in what you say .. but I ask politely that you take a step back from your anger and consider the others point of view.

Religion has a LOT to answer for on many levels, but many find solice within it, many don't too. There are fanatics who believe what they do is done within the auspices of their 'Lord'.

Religion and faith can be seen different ways by different people, in can mean many things to many people. Being a Christian is no different to being a Muslim etc etc ... at the end of the day we are still people.

I have watched the religious threads on here turn this way time and time again .... please remember it is not each other, or your personal beliefs that you should be discussing ... as that's personal, but the general state and way in which some see it.

Russ, you defend YOUR belief well, but it's yours ... not necessarily the view shared by others ....

Tolerance please and play nice :D

Russ 02-02-2004 13:10
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
And I've never denied anyone their right to disagree with my views.

Theodoric 02-02-2004 19:26
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
And I've never denied anyone their right to disagree with my views.
May I be allowed to agree with you here. As far as I have seen, if anyone makes a point with a reasonable degree of politeness, then you respond equally politely.

Graham 03-02-2004 02:37
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
If it doesn't mean that Russ thinks that these people do, what's different about islam, which Russ also didn't mention in his comment?
Sorry, did you miss the bit where he brought up the subject of "flying planes into buildings"?

Graham 03-02-2004 02:38
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
And I've never denied anyone their right to disagree with my views.
And I've never resorted to personal attacks.

Xaccers 03-02-2004 02:53
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Sorry, did you miss the bit where he brought up the subject of "flying planes into buildings"?
He made a factually accurate statement, in which he also mentioned christians not smacking people about etc, but *YOU* have decided (not Russ) that because he mentioned aeroplanes, he must therefore believe that Islam permits this.

Ramrod 03-02-2004 21:24
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
On that note:http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&sect...d=3&m=2&y=2004

Graham 03-02-2004 22:37
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
He made a factually accurate statement, in which he also mentioned christians not smacking people about etc, but *YOU* have decided (not Russ) that because he mentioned aeroplanes, he must therefore believe that Islam permits this.
Let me quote *you* from message #61:

"Using a bit of common sense, I can see that even though you refered to the people who flew the planes into the twin towers as muslim, you know that they were not following true islam, but some warped version of it."

Which is, of course, entirely correct.

However, were I to follow Russ' logic, I wouldn't be *able* to say that because "I don't know enough about Islam to be able to comment".

I don't *believe* that Islam permits this and I will give Islam and Muslims the benefit of the doubt unless I see some convincing evidence otherwise. That's all that Russ needs to do, instead of saying "Well I know that a 'True Christian' wouldn't do this, but I don't know about anyone else".

Graham 03-02-2004 22:39
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod
Interesting that it concludes:

"Their message urged Muslims to return to Islam and live in accordance with its teachings."

Does this include repressing women, chopping hands off theives and all the other things that people have mentioned in here...?!

Xaccers 03-02-2004 22:45
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Interesting that it concludes:

"Their message urged Muslims to return to Islam and live in accordance with its teachings."

Does this include repressing women, chopping hands off theives and all the other things that people have mentioned in here...?!
Do you know that Islam states women should be repressed etc?

Graham 03-02-2004 22:48
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
Do you know that Islam states women should be repressed etc?
There was a certain irony present in that last posting of mine...!

Xaccers 03-02-2004 22:50
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
There was a certain irony present in that last posting of mine...!
So even though you just said that, you don't actually believe that islam supports the repression of women, the removal of hands from thieves etc?

Ramrod 03-02-2004 22:53
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Interesting that it concludes:

"Their message urged Muslims to return to Islam and live in accordance with its teachings."

Does this include repressing women, chopping hands off theives and all the other things that people have mentioned in here...?!
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&sect...=31&m=1&y=2004
Quote:
Only last week, a religious scholar here decreed that women taking the wheel of an automobile was sinful.

The argument was that by allowing women the mobility and the opportunity to intermingle with men would lead to a social breakdown of morals and ethics.

Prior to that, another scholar decreed that the participation of women in a recently held economic forum in Jeddah was just as sinful. Once again, the close proximity of women to men was raised.

It got me thinking. There are approximately 1.3 billion Muslims all over the world, with numbers rising daily. Assuming that half those numbers are women, it would place the figure to about 600 million, twice the total population of the United States of America.

And if half of these women have a driving license and are currently driving vehicles in different parts of the world, then it would indeed be an alarming statistic in line with this recent edict. For that would place approximately 300 million women in direct violation of proper moral behavior.
:rolleyes:

Graham 04-02-2004 02:24
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
So even though you just said that, you don't actually believe that islam supports the repression of women, the removal of hands from thieves etc?
Quoting from the link Ramrod just gave:

"The Islam we have grown up with grants women full status and equal rights in society. And they are concrete rights. The Islam we know is a tolerant and practical religion, one of peace and compassion to all, be they men or women, Muslims or otherwise. It does not deny a woman the right to work. Nor does it forbid her to drive. It is for her to decide."

kronas 04-02-2004 02:31
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Quoting from the link Ramrod just gave:

"The Islam we have grown up with grants women full status and equal rights in society. And they are concrete rights. The Islam we know is a tolerant and practical religion, one of peace and compassion to all, be they men or women, Muslims or otherwise. It does not deny a woman the right to work. Nor does it forbid her to drive. It is for her to decide."
i would disagree with this, having questioned muslims and seen it with my own eyes they mainly agree women should stay at home and look after the children, with the minority of the women who are capable of becoming doctors or in such a 'high' proffession being allowed to go in to a job, this would be excluded however if the women had to wear a skirt or any 'loose' clothing......

Graham 04-02-2004 02:42
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
And I again point out that, just as women got the vote in this country less than a hundred years ago, so, up until very recently, women in the UK were expected to stay home, look after the children and feed the husband when he came back from work etc etc.

Xaccers 04-02-2004 02:44
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronas
i would disagree with this, having questioned muslims and seen it with my own eyes they mainly agree women should stay at home and look after the children, with the minority of the women who are capable of becoming doctors or in such a 'high' proffession being allowed to go in to a job, this would be excluded however if the women had to wear a skirt or any 'loose' clothing......
But is their opinion from islam or from their culture?
Take catholics out in the countryside in Eire, alot of people there feel women should stay at home. Alot of the men even make their wives sit in the back of their cars while their first born son sits in the front.
But is this a catholic thing or an irish thing (restricted to their part of the irish countryside)

kronas 04-02-2004 02:50
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
But is their opinion from islam or from their culture?
Take catholics out in the countryside in Eire, alot of people there feel women should stay at home. Alot of the men even make their wives sit in the back of their cars while their first born son sits in the front.
But is this a catholic thing or an irish thing (restricted to their part of the irish countryside)
i would say it is partly a culture thing, but things are still dictated by the book such as the sharia laws.........

Xaccers 04-02-2004 03:27
Re: Muslims outpace Anglicans in the UK
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronas
i would say it is partly a culture thing, but things are still dictated by the book such as the sharia laws.........
The book which mentions that Mohammad's wife worked?


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