Remarks about Sucide Bombers
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3421669.stm
Discuss...

I remember taking a similar opinion previously and getting the same reception.

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Whatever Kilroy had is obviously catching :rolleyes:

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IMO this is totally different, it's a remark made from knowledge instead of ignorance.

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Hmmm...If thats case, there is no excuse and she should be fired.
No matter what she says now, she was condoning terrorism by making that statement. She effectively said that if she was in their shoes, she would do the same.*edit* or did she....?

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I don't agree,

Now can we let other people voice their opinion - I'm not going to let this turn into a Ramrod V. [insert left-wing member here] thread.

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What don't you agree with and why?

I'm just keeping this thread warm till everyone piles in :D

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I have just read the link and I think the last part of the article probably sums it up :-

Had anyone ever heard of her before today?

PS I see from that article there is a "delegation" of labour mp's visiting israel atm, are they going to visit Palestine too I wonder? ;)

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It's as I have said before:
People do not blow themselves up on a wym, there are very powerful reasons why they feel it is necessary and it is in trying to fix those reasons that we will stop the bombers.

She's the one who has visited the region, it is her opinion on what the conditions would drive her to do or others.

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I can see where she is coming from, and to a certain extent I agree with her. However, I do not think it is very smart to say what she did.

It would have been a different matter if she would simply have pointed out that you need to look at the reasons why people do this. But to say she might do the same thing can easily be construed as condoning it, which doesn't go down very well for a politician.

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Well said. That pretty much sums up my view.

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she might have said it to be deliberately controversial


as now we have all heard of her whereas before we had not

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Yes, but we may might hear very little from her after this. (I.e., it could be the end of her political career)

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Not smart, or not politically wise? Leaving aside all other issues, at least she is a politician who has been honest in her views and says it how she sees it. While I can see how some people will interpret these views in the worst possible light, do we really want to have politicians who only say what they think will receive positive public support (I know, that's the Labour party :) ).

There is a very wide gulf between condoning and action and understanding why they are doing it, but until these issues are given a proper public forum without the spin behind it nothing is going to improve. I think if we had a few more politicians like her things might be a lot better as the real roots of the problems would be addressed.

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It's also b*llox.......Ms Tonge's remarks appear to condone violence and killing whereas RKS comments were condemning those who bomb and kill !!

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Fair point. I meant not politically wise. But, as usual there is a tradeoff. If you are too honest, you may not be voicing your opinions for long. (Which can be a good as well as a bad thing)

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It does give the suicide bombers some sort of argument to what they are doing is right when really it is wrong. It would be so much easier if each side were more inclined to deal with the problems peacefully. People are allowed to have opinions but should be more careful whether it should be known in the public or not if they hold public positions.

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"Or did she....?"

Well, actually, no, she didn't.

Unfortunately what she *did* say has now been buried under the mass of people (and tabloid newspapers) leaping in to put their own interpretations on her words to make political capital.

Those who claim that she was "supporting terrorism" or that she is "condoning suicide bombers" are just revealing themselves as cynical political opportunists and that is what is really disappointing about this.

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It's quite simple, either you believe that killing people is ok, in which case you can opt for a weapon to include yourself amongst the dead, or you believe that killing is wrong.

If a suicide bomber kills a few israeli army conscripts ( age 17 - 18 usually), is that the act of a reasonable person? If you think so, you won't object to Shipman, who probably also felt desperate from time to time.......

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So what exactly did she say? :confused:

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'Might just consider' are the operative words I think.

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Well thats as good as saying she would. If she says she 'wouldn't consider' then we know where she stands because anything else falls short of that and implies that she would/might etc ie.acceptance, if not approval.

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But this raises an interesting issue for the times when military personnel are specifically targeted. Is it still terrorism if you actively target the military, who are attacking Palestine? Is there any difference between using a suicide bomber and a stealth bomber if you are attacking military targets only?

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None whatsoever but the suicide bombers also target civilians. Thats why they don't have my support.

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I agree it is not very far from it. Had she said something like 'I can understand what drives these people to resort to these measures' it would have been a different matter IMO.

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Yep....anyhow, I really don't think that this was said with any malice or intended to support terrorism. Just a Kilroy-Silk'ism :rolleyes:

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Ahhh
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3421669.stm
This is bang out of order. :(

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Yup, that is harsh...

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Yup, she should have been allowed to make a complete retraction and that should have been the end of it :(

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No it isn't.

I might just consider punching you in the nose for saying that, but it doesn't mean that I actually *would*.

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It's interesting to note that Israel's ambassador Zvi Shtauber told News 24 he welcomed the sacking.

"I understand it's a matter of free speech, but I expect her to express some sympathy for the victims of suicide bombers and not confining herself to confessing understanding for suicide bombers," he said.

Curiously enough, he doesn't seem to mention anything about sympathy for the *innocent* Palestinians who are harassed by the Israelis, who are having their land stolen whilst being forced behind a new "Berlin Wall", who are killed when Israel goes for "revenge attacks" with tanks and helicopter gunships against "terrorist leaders" and then sends in bulldozers to demolish the houses of the families of suspected bombers.

Whatever else you may say, Israel does *not* hold the moral high ground.

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Given that attitude of the Israeli ambassador who attacked that art installation a few days ago I do not get the impression that they have much respect for free speech unless it unequivocally supports the Israeli perspective.

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I never said that it did :confused:

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Oh come off it, thats in a different context to how she said it. The way she said it, she appeared to be giving weight to their actions. Wheather she actually would do it is immaterial.

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No, that's the interpretation that people have put onto her words for their own political ends.

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Exactly, the sound bite I heard, she was trying very hard to make it clear that she condemned suicide bombers, but felt that if she was in the palestinian position, she might become one herself, and said how awful it is to think like that.

No way did she try and justify suicide bombers.

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i agree xaccers ... in fact, tonge has even specifically stated that she did not condone suicide bombers.

my interpretation is that tonge has expressed empathy for the palastinians situation and that desparation can and often does lead to violence. morality looks very different when you live in abject poverty with no way out and no hope for improvment.

she was making a statement under a personal context too, not a partisan one. she isn't in the government either. kennedy should have siad he disagreed with her and then let the people of her constituency decide at the next election whether she is acceptable or not.

political correctness carves another notch in it's bedpost !

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She was planning on retiring at the next election anyway.

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Which is probably why she feels she can finally speak her mind...! :rolleyes:

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Apparently (according to 'any questions' on radio4 a few hours ago) she had plenty of opportunity to retract/amend/qualify her statement at the time of the original interview and she declined to do so. By saying that she would consider it, she is condoning it. No ifs or buts. This is black and white. She could have said something like: 'if I was in that situation and was brainwashed by evil people' then it would have been ok. But she didn't.
However, I still don't think she should have lost her job, politicians should be able to make gaffs, they aren't infallible robots.

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Pardon me but that's rubbish.

What she said was clear enough at the start and, frankly, any "retraction, amendment, qualification" would just have been jumped on by the political opportunists as trying to weasel out, when IMO it's clear that she meant exactly what she said.

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I couldn't believe (ok I could) how badly the sun had misquoted her.
Changing her statement from one fo condemning suicide bombers but understanding what drives them to it, to being pro-suicide bombers.

Here's something like what she said, but a different context.

"I condemn burglaries by heroine users. I think though, that if I was a heroine user, and I say this advisedly, that I too would break into someone's house to steal their TV, just to pay for my next fix."

Don't anyone dare say I can't compare the two, because I'm not comparing the two, it is the message that is important, not the context.


Most of us can understand the above, we know that drug users break into houses/mug people just to be able to afford their next fix. We understand why they are stealing, but in saying we understand, we are in no way what so ever saying we are pro-stealing, or justifyting drug users stealing for their habbits.

That message is no different to what Tonge was saying. She could understand why suicide bombers do what they do, and that if she was in the same horrible situation as the palestinians, she might even do it as well (because she understood what drove them to it), but that is in no way what so ever saying that the suicide bombers are right, or just, or that she is pro-terrorists.

Now do you understand?

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:erm: Thanks Graham, which bit exactly?

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[QUOTE=Xaccers] we know that drug users break into houses/mug people just to be able to afford their next fix. We understand why they are stealing, but in saying we understand, we are in no way what so ever saying we are pro-stealing, or justifyting drug users stealing for their habbits.

That message is no different to what Tonge was saying. She could understand why suicide bombers do what they do, and that if she was in the same horrible situation as the palestinians, she might even do it as well (because she understood what drove them to it), but that is in no way what so ever saying that the suicide bombers are right, or just, or that she is pro-terrorists.
QUOTE]
Different situations. Drug users have no choice, their addiction drives them (and we can understand that without condoning their actions). Palestinians have a choice.

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Not really, their intense hate drives them - and relgious believes that they are guaranteed paradise if they do.
The IRA has blown up people for less than this but we haven't caused so much fuss over Jerry Adams.

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for crying out loud!!!!

What part of "Don't anyone dare say I can't compare the two, because I'm not comparing the two, it is the message that is important, not the context." don't you get?

The message is that it is possible to understand why someone does something whilst still condemning it, whether it be stealing for drugs, suicide bombing, cheating on your partner etc

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Bloody well should have! Didn't he fire the first shot on 'bloody Sunday'? :notopic:

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I understand that you said that you arn't comparing the two but if you put the two next to each other and then use the first to explain the second then a comparison becomes inevitable. Anyway, I just said that it was a bad example because the factor of addiction isn't present in the Palestinian case.

But she didn't just say that she understands why they do it, hell, I understand why they do it. She actually said that she might do it herself in that situation. Big difference.

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And I admit that if I was homeless and living on the streets, I may take drugs gain and addition and steal to pay for it. Doesn't mean I condone it - it's my circumstances.

Actually, I'd probably commit suicide before that happened, but I don't condone that either.

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So that means you wouldnt gain an addiction etc. ;) :D
Anyhoo....I think that we are splitting hairs here. She shouldn't have said it, bad choice of words. Shouldn't have lost her job over it either.
*ramrod out* :)

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Which she said was an awful thing to think, expressing the awful conditions the palestinians are living under which drives them to do such things.
Remember, alot of these bombers aren't doing it because they think they'll go to heaven, they're doing it because they are personally at war with the state of israel which has invaded their country and treats them as second class citizens. Israel is very good at letting the line between Israeli and Jew get muddled, how many times have you heard an Israeli spokes person being interviewed say that to be anti-Israel is to be anti-jew?
Most of the arab nations have to hatred of jews (they're brothers), it's the state of israel that they have the problem with.
Tonge was trying to get this across, that the situation is so bad, that a few people feel that the only thing they can do is blow up innocent people.
Now think, how bad would things have to be to make you feel like that? Don't say you'd never do it, answer the question, how bad would things have to be?
Would the constant humiliation at security checks, the unrepentant killing of innocent children (perhaps even your family members) by the goverment, the destruction of family homes, the constant invasion of your homeland, the total loss of human rights, the restrictions on what jobs you can do and how much you can earn, the restrictions on whether you can visit your family or not, how much of that and more happening to you yourself could you turn a blind eye to before you finally crack and decide something needs to be done?

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I really hope you aren't suggesting an entire arab state commits suicide :eek:


Besides, if memory serves it's outlawed by the qua'ran