career racism ?
 

this news item, highlights the growing possible unfairness, in obtaining professorships in the US the report also states that the science secter is 'dominated' by 'white' males...........

a study conducted showed that 48% of bacherlor's degrees in math were female yet only 8.3% were professors

the research was done between 2000-2002 and took in to account the massachusetts institute of technology.

source CNN.com

http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/01....ap/index.html

i agree with the findings, in some secters, there are a proportionally high number of males or 'white' males, i concede that there could be a bias.

Re: career racism ?
 

this sort of epidemiological study always gives me a chuckle when it's been politicised like this. It has some interesting perspectives for psychology though, i guess. it is normal for an individual to have a preference for the familier, it doesn't mean there is a conspiracy against woman and ethnic minoritys.

as for 'affirmative action' ... my mind in two courts about that.

the article seems to work on the premise that people want a career thats directly related to their qualifications, as if there is some linial relationship between them. maths is afterall, a basic skill required for many different career paths.

Re: career racism ?
 

There certainly is career racism around today. In today's Mail on Sunday there's a story about this guy who proved he had the qualifications to be a firefighter yet was constantly overlooked for the job in favour of ethnic applicants as well as women.

When the ethnic candidates failed the fitness or written exams, the passmarks were lowered to allow them in. One candidate was under 5 feet in height - too short to reach the ladder on the fire engine but in order to reach quotas, the fire service gave him a job.

He took them to a tribunal and won - thereby proving he was discriminated against on the grounds of race and gender.

Re: career racism ?
 

I guess that one made the newspaper because it is more unusual for a complaint to be taken seriously when it's from a white person.
I guess that statement sounds racist, but I dont mean it to be it's just a fact.

One of my ex-girlfriends worked with a woman of caribbean origin, there were some big changes in the organisiation that they worked for and she got treated a bit more equal than anyone else because she was threatning to complain about racism. This particular woman was known for being lazy in work and had a history of receiving warnings for this reason and others, the employers were scared of her though because every time they gave her a warning she claimed that it was for racist reasons.

I heard another one from some ntl field techs about the police stopping everyone on a stretch of road in Newport to check if they had been consuming alcohol. One of the ntl techs is from a middle east country and was the only one to be waved straight through without having to wind down his window! The guy telling me said all the other ntl techs driving down that road were stopped.

I believe to stop racisim we also have to treat everyone the same, the guy in question could of been well over the limit but he doesn't drink.

But the fact that he doesn't drink is not the point is it. :(

Re: career racism ?
 

positive discrimination is this 'affirmative action' i mentioned earlier. i thought we were supposed to be moving away from this way of thinking. i'm disappointed.

i'm in two minds about it because ethnic minoritys have been descriminated against in the past and that had a major impact on thier social integration, effectively isolating them. some form of compensation would seem to make sense, at first.

what we have now is the legacy of that time, with ghettoisation and other cultural developments within pluralethnic communitys. i do not believe that racism is typically a major problem anymore so 'affirmative action's' relevance has deminished.

'affirmative action' is a form of 'top down design' for society. this is very dangerous, everytime it's happened in the past it has resulted in massive social unrest as it creates an adversarial relationship between different community's of a society due to the rapid change it brings.

change has to happen slowly if social cohesion is to be maintained. i say let ethnic communitys integrate naturally, at their own rate, without political meddling.

Re: career racism ?
 

Anyone for affirmative action recognize visibile minorities and women as inferior in need of special regulations and quotas.

I do not see them as inferior, hence, no special rules.

Re: career racism ?
 

there was a story in Wales a few years ago

not sure how true it was

but it was about a lifegaurd in the 'then was' empire pool

someone was in distress/drowning in the pool and the guard was just standing there


why don't you go to help? a bystander asked

I can't swim - he replied

how come you got the job then? the bystander retorted

I can speak welsh - he replied

Re: career racism ?
 

Alternatively:

but that guy's calling for help in English...!

:angel:

Re: career racism ?
 

I won't dispute you heard that story but I'd consider it to be HIGHLY unlikely.

Re: career racism ?
 

I am discrimated against as I like to to visit the coffee machine !! :D

Re: career racism ?
 

Aye, I mean who speaks Welsh these days :D

Re: career racism ?
 

You need to if you want to find that welsh railway station.. No I am not going to make a fool of myself by trying to type it ! :D

Re: career racism ?
 

You mean Llanfair PG, which is what the locals call it, only tourists with large day-glo rucksacks call it be it's full name :)

Re: career racism ?
 

i have agreed with much of your post, however i will focus on this part.

i stand to agree with you that 'intergration' happens and is slow, but i know of people who are happy to work with anyone (regardless of race colour or age) but when it comes to chohesive relations with certain members of other staff its then a diffarent story....

Re: career racism ?
 

yeah ... and i'd just like to add, i'd import a civilised immigrant anyday if that meant we could export people who repeatedly commit violent crime.

Re: career racism ?
 

After the grade-school class comes back inside, the teacher asks Alice, "What did you do at recess?"

Alice says, "I played in the sandbox."

"That's nice," the teacher says. "If you can go to the blackboard and write sand correctly, I'll give you a fresh-baked cookie." Alice does, and she gets a cookie. Then the teacher asks Billy what he did at recess.

Billy says, "I played in the sandbox with Alice."

The teacher says, "Good. If you can write box on the blackboard, I'll give you a fresh-baked cookie." Billy writes the word, and he gets a cookie. The teacher then asks Mustafa Abdul what he did at recess. "I tried to play with Alice and Billy," Mustafa answers, "but they threw rocks at me."

"They threw rocks at you? That sounds like blatant racial discrimination!" the teacher says. "If you can go to the blackboard and write blatant racial discrimination, I'll give you a fresh-baked cookie."

Re: career racism ?
 

Its often ammused me when these kind of statistics come out.

Things such as "there are more black youths in prinson than college". Yeah well if the black youths in question didnt do any law breaking and go to college then there wouldnt be "more black youths in prison than college"

Same goes for this proffessors thing. If they wanted to be professors then they should be, because they arent does not automatically mean there is career racism involved.

Re: career racism ?
 

I'm glad you find it so funny.

What a wonderful idea! I'm amazed that nobody thought of it before!!

Of course the facts that to get to college (assuming, of course, you don't have to pay for it) you need to get decent exam results and to get decent exam results you need a decent education and to get a decent education you need decent schools in deprived areas are merely insignificant details...

Re: career racism ?
 

Let me see, You dont have to pay to go to college when you are 16 years old.
And no you dont need Decent exam results to get into college, But yes I concede you need 4 C passes to do A levels. A levels are only ever any good if you want to go to uni. Uni is only ever any good if your parents are millionaires. So at the end of the day everyone gets stuck in the same boat at uni.
At college ie Further education not Higher education there is a multitude of courses to do that dont need high grade GCSE passes.

So once again, if the people concerned in my previous prison statement didnt break the law then they may just well be in College instead of prison.

The fact that some people that happen to be black and educated to a high degree and then dont become professors is NOT an indication of career racism, does the survey take into account that thye may not want to be a professor? Does the system have to employ a black professor even though there may be no openings for a professor from any race?

This is exactly why I think these surveys and subsequent statements are a joke, ANY survey can be made to prove ANY hypothesis.

Re: career racism ?
 

No, but it helps.

No, but they help.

Now imagine that you look towards the bottom of the classes of students who could go to college, but probably won't because they have got poor results because they got a poor education (or, indeed, skipped school much of the time) and suddenly it's not so funny.

And if my granny had wheels she'd have been a wagon.

It's all very well to say "ah but if..." but to make such a simplistic argument as this without looking at the background and expect it to be accepted as credible is just wishful thinking.

Whilst I don't deny that there may be flaws in the survey, the fact is that the "disadvantages" caused by racism start right from the very foundations of education and, indeed, society and that is something that should be tackled.

Re: career racism ?
 

Not sure how that line can have anything to do with not having to pay for college courses at 16.

Colleges are more than happy to welcome people who have totally failed all of their GCSE's and wish to re-take them, from scratch. So if you went to a crap school (although in my experience, even with crap schools, its the pupils that don't want to learn that are the ones that come out with nothing, the pupils that are let down by teachers still normally manage to come out with something). So given that after leaving schools, there are still free opertinuties for people who have totally failed, what excuse do people have for choosing a life of crime? The schools aren't saying "you're black so we're giving you a crap education" the colleges aren't saying "you're black so we'll not accept you on our courses", so where is the racism?
They have the same oppertunities with education as white people, or asians, or orientals, and no one is forcing them into crime. So I think the suggestion that if they chose to go to college rather than crime would result in fewer black youths in prison and more in college is factually accurate.

What about the other people at the same school who got the same crappy education but went on to college, or got a job?
Frankly, if you are going to bunk off school, then it is your choice, your responsibility, it's not like it takes that many brain cells to work out that you need to go to school to get an education, even a crap one, and as I said, at 16 you can do the courses again at college, heck, if you go to the LEA and tell them that your school is crap and you aren't going to attend, but you would attend a college course, they will send you to the college course! (happened to a couple of friends of mine)

*tries not to think about riding your granny :D

Are the disadvantages of inner city schools due to racism?

Re: career racism ?
 

You may well get exactly what you pay for.

(I'd point out that the original post was actually about the US, not the UK and I don't know what the US system is like)

I don't deny that. However there is plenty of racism present in society that *makes* some black children not want to (or care about) learning.

If you've been harassed by the Police because, being young and black, you're the type "most likely to commit crime" and live in a deprived area and have probably already learned that it's "easier" to get money from stealing mobile phones, stereos and videos than having to work for it, there's a distinct lack of motivation.

Or are now maybe stacking shelves in Tescos or frying burgers in McDs or are on the New Deal cheap labour for businesses scheme or doing something tedious and worthless for the minimum wage...

In some areas, I think, most likely, yes.

Re: career racism ?
 

Ah I see, pay nothing for free education, and get free education, I can agree with that :)


Whoops, missed that bit, I thought we were talking about the UK now, that makes your payment thing make more sense :)

It's that dilema isn't it I suppose? Blacks get targetted by the police because statistically they're the most likely to be criminals, which kinda makes more sense than targetting people who generally aren't known for being criminals, but this (and not quite sure how) causes them to not want to learn, and drives them to crime.

But they aren't criminals, and if they stick with it at McD's they can become an assistant manager in a few months, earning £18K, and not long later move up to manager on even more.
And I'm sure there's plenty of people doing jobs on minimum wage who would take great offence at you suggesting what they do is worthless :p

Is this in america or the UK?
Are the LEA (UK) withholding funds for improvments within schools (including teaching improvements) because they have high non-white levels?

Re: career racism ?
 

This is another Panto thread isn't it? :)


Where's Ramrod?
He's behind you.
Oh no he's not

Oops sorry substitute Xaccers for Ramrod(tho I'm sure he'll be along eventually)

Graham must you ALWAYS play devil's advocate? :scratch:

Incog. :wavey:

Re: career racism ?
 

Hey, Graham and I have been good, this is still quite civilised, and we do agree on some things, just look at the thread on Tonge

Re: career racism ?
 

I am joking you know but you two do come across like an old married couple :rofl:

Incog. :wavey:

Re: career racism ?
 

It only makes sense to those who are more concerned about figures and targets than *PEOPLE*.

Sheer human bloody mindedness may make some people think "well, if your society is going to treat me like a criminal I'll bloody well be one!"

And what's Mickey D's rate of staff turnover...??

And I know several who *are* doing jobs on minimum wage who know damn well that what they are doing is worthless...!

I don't know about the USA, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's some element of that. There certainly seems to be such in the UK eg

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/1758/sw175814.htm

http://www.c.s.e.freeuk.com/EthnicMinoritiesLtr.htm

Re: career racism ?
 

Incognitas: I have explained this before in these forums, but I will do it again and as many times as I have to.

If you think that I am posting stuff simply to be argumentative or to play "devil's advocate" or to be deliberately contrary, then you have completely misunderstood me.

I do not do any of the above.

If there is an issue I feel strongly about I reserve the right to post comments on that subject, no matter that I may be in a minority of one and the rest of the world disagrees with me.

It's called Freedom of Speech.

PS I have just seen your message where you told Xaccers you were joking.

I'm not laughing.

Re: career racism ?
 

The thing is, if blacks in an area are the ones comitting the crimes, then the records will show that the majority of offences are comitted by them. That's not racist, that's just factual.
What would be racist is if the police concentrated on an ethnic group, but only a small fraction of those were actually comitting an offence, then the reason for targetting them is racial not crime prevention.
If there's an area where whites are the main criminals, I would expect the police to target white people more than other ethnic groups.


What kind of person would do that? "I'm going to break the law because the police stopped me last week and asked me who I was"


For managers, not much of a turnover. you've got to remember that most of the floor staff are part time student workers who are doing it for extra money. However, those who are doing it for a living quickly get rewarded.

Well the first one talks about the segregation of ethnic groups in bradford because the textile manufacturers who were finding housing for these workers decided to put them in groups rather than just mixing them up.
Was this because the employers were racist? Who knows, I can't really see how it could be. More likely that they just felt it would help people to live next to others from their same ethnic origins.

The second one talks about the problems with single faith schools, which by definition could be considered racist in that if you aren't of their faith you can't go.
Doesn't really cover rascist discrimination in state schools which the majority of kids in this country go to.

As for not laughing, want me to send incog over with her ticket stick? :naughty:

Re: career racism ?
 

I don't deny that at all. The question is "What do you *do* about it"?

I doubt anyone would do it just because of that.

But if it was last week, and the week before, *and* last month *and* your friends *and* your relations and all just because you're black, perhaps you might think a little bit differently.

And soon decide it isn't worth it.

More likely because the Whites refused to live in the same communities as the heathen Blacks etc or because the employers frowned on "mixing the races" etc.

Re: career racism ?
 

You do what most police forces do, try and work with the comunity, showing them that there is a way other than crime.

More likely you'll just end up resenting the police.

No, who move away from the area, or get themselves careers in something they want to do, like become estate agents, or policemen.

So you don't think it was a case of the companies having a batch of asians arriving in one go, so bulk buy houses and fill them. Then a batch of west indians due, so again, bulk buy houses for them to live in, and fill them up?
You think that the employers were racist and went to the specific effort of segregating groups rather than dumping them all in on each other and sitting back laughing while they fight amongst themselves and have to take time off work because of their injuries?

Re: career racism ?
 

What they are supposed to do and what they actually do may be two entirely different things viz "institutional racism".

And then someone says "come on a joy ride" or "we're going to do some shoplifting" or "we're going to nick some stereos" and the thought might be "I shouldn't do that, but there again, what do I owe those ba$$$$ds?"

And those who can't get careers like that or can't afford to move away are stuck in an area that becomes more and more deprived.

No.

Care to back that speculation up with anything?

Re: career racism ?
 

it could be a three way, with ramrod involved as well............at times :rofl:

Re: career racism ?
 

Isn't your comment just speculation too?
If we werent' there, didn't know the employers, then all we can do is speculate.
Your speculation relies on the employers going to extra expense and effort.
Mine relies on the employers being cheapskates who don't want to spend any more than they have to, back in a time where companies didn't feel they had to have a comitment to their local comunity.

Anyway, are we getting off topic?

Isn't career racism like career sexism? Where employees can't get promoted because of their race.

Re: career racism ?
 

May I point you to various ghettos around the world which are very often the only places that minority groups can find places to live, not because they don't *want* to live somewhere else, but because they *can't*.

Very possibly.