Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Following on from the scanning banknotes thread, I want to know what people's opinion on software theft is.

If you (for example) download mp3's, are you stealing? Are you able to purchase the tracks either on CD or online without resorting to P2P?

If you download games and or applications that cost a lot of money, is it ok because you can't afford it? Or is it still theft?

My personal opinion is that it's technically all theft but I have no objection to it, no-one is stealing from me, I guess if I'd have written the software or composed the track my opinion would be a little more harsh ..

(and can we try and keep this civil please)

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

I'd have a hard time arguing it isn't theft. That doesn't mean I don't download the occasional mp3, but I still buy a fair amount of cds.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

If I'd gone to the trouble of writing a programme or song or anything which involved a lot of effort on my part for the purpose of distributing it for reward, I certainly would view as theft any circumstance where someone obtained my work without paying for it and without my permission.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Short answer is a resounding "YES" it is theft plain and simple whatever excuse is used.

The reality is it will always happen, but maybe an acceptable compromise is that advocated by many warez groups, which is that if you use a warez version and like it support the company that produced it by buying their products.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Being Philosophical you could argue that all you are stealing are ones and zeros that happen (when processed) to resemble the sound someone famous once made in a recording studio. If you add a slight interference you could argue it's not the same song.

However, this trend of thought would send capitalist software/music companies into disarray. So I think current society probably should consider it a minor form of stealing.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

You could argue that yes, then you could argue that the CD someone shoplifted is just a bit of plastic with 1's and 0's on it, or the book is just a bit of paper with some ink on it, time and effort still went in to the original work regardless of which format it ends up in.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Yes, your right, and in our society time and effort are worth money, but only if people are willing to pay for the result.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Eventually I can see (certainly with games), 'scene' releases becoming a thing of the past, while they like to claim they can crack any copy protection, the methods are long becoming a pain, take Starforce 3 and Tages, two new methods of copy protecting software, warez groups have to not only filter out the copy protection throughout the game, they then have to play it all the way through (sometimes more than once to get every permutation of gameplay) to check their cracks have worked they also at times have to release an entire new cd's worth of cracked content just so people can play it, it's no longer a matter of just releasing a cracked executable. Also, with more and more people going on to broadband, I'd say in five years most software will 'phone home' and check the software serial numbers on the companies servers and will probably have much more online content, making a crack to block accessing the internet worthless.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

The same goes for any buyable object, the difference is, most people won't thieve it if they can't pay for it. The problem is, theft over the internet has been made far too easy it's only recently that they've started clamping down on it .. and look at the complaining the people who actually steal the stuff are doing. I've lost count of the times I've seen "**** the DMCA" in people's signatures (elsewhere of course)

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Copyright infringement: yes
Theft: mumble mumble grey area mumble

I know it is probably just a case of symantics, but personally I don't feel it is theft.
If someone goes into PC World and runs off with a copy of Photoshop that's theft. Not because they've got someting physical in their grubby little mitts, but because it was something which had they not stolen, would have been bought by someone who could afford it.

However, if someone gets hold of a copy through warez because they cannot afford to buy it (there's a difference between cannot afford and cannot be bother to buy) then adobe would never make any money from them, so they have not reduced adobe's profits. They have broken the law because of copyright infringement, but they haven't stolen.

If you photo copy a page from a book, have you stolen that page? No, but you may have commited copyright infringement.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Yes, but you can't run a diamond through a photocopier and get the equivalent. [bear in mind I am being philosophical] it isn't an object you are stealing. But you are getting the benefit of someone else's work without paying but you have not relieved them of that work. So I think I agree with Xaccers, copyright infringement is a more accurate description.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

But then there are people who might have thought "ok, so it's 600 quid, I'll save up for it .. oh wait, no, there's a copy on Kazaa ... I'll spend my money on fag's and jam!" ... If you can't afford .. do without or find a cheaper alternative (basically)

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Or break the law and face the consequences if caught (no people shouldn't do that)

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

I'd go with "Electronic Theft" rather than copyright infringement.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Not sure if that's sarcasm but that does sum up how I feel about it, it's up to the individual what they do, if they get caught and fined then they can't blame anyone but themselves. However, people that moan about new anti-theft measures in software or complain about Palladium or the DMCA saying it's an infringement of civil liberties really need to take a step back and realise why they're introduced.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

When it comes to Games the situation is a little different I think as the downloaders fall into two distinct groups.

The first are those who never do and never will pay if they can avoid it. They are stealing under the original deffinition "with intent to permanently deprive".

The second group are kids trying out the game before they buy and many do then go out and buy the original not just for the on-line stuff but also because they want to own the original game complete with packaging etc. This hardly meets the usual deffinition of theft.

In fact this situation mirrors a lot of what happens with Movie downloading too. If people like the movie they will most often actually go to see it at a cinema as well as downloading a copy.

The Movie industry themselves have adopted a more philosophical approach to the problem by accepting that at least in part the download activity actually acts as free promotion. (The download files are not theft but just very very long trailers for the movie) LOL

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

I agree with you about the blame :)

And about people complaining that the software companies are fighting back with technology, which I think the software companies should do :)

I don't download mp3's, but then I also don't buy many CD's, so I can't really comment much on that side of things. I do feel CDs are not good value for money.

I'm not really into pirated films either, I'd rather see a film I think will be good in the cinema.
When I have downloaded films, it's either been so that I can watch them while I'm working nights and either my DVD of the film is stuck up north, or its a film I'm thinking of getting and if it's good, I'll go out and buy it, if it's not (like the hulk) I'll save my money.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

doownloading copyright material is an offence,under the law,the way the RIAA have handled there side of the anti downloading brigade has been one that has affected many peoples pockets,ive mentioned this before when i first got in to av i liked the first single which was closley followed by the second single,and then i looked in to obtaining the album as i have NEVER liked an artists album fully EVER so i 'obtained' the album listened to it actually liked it and bought it, because i will support a good artist i did the same with evanescence, i have the cd next to me i bought that piracy is not all bad,its just people who dont buy and download which is bad......

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

And then there's those who download and sell...

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

I have used p2p apps to download copywrighted material simply because I could not afford to buy it, if I had not done so, I would not be in the Job i'm in now as my knowledge of software would not be wide enough for me to do my Job(IT Technican/Assistant Supervisor).

I have no problems recognising that what I have done is illegal and wrong, but, if it means the difference between £80 a fortnight job seekers allowance and £200+ week in my present job, I would have to say that i would do it again.

I am slowly starting to buy most of the programs that I have downloaded over the years, and some of them we have site-licensed copies of a work that I can legally use.

IMHO, this is why it is so hard to get a start in the IT Support industry of this country, because everwhere wants you to have experience of everything, and nowhere is willing to provide in cheaply, this is where p2p/downoading can come in useful.

You just have to make sure that when you have the money to spare, that you buy of legally obtain anything that you are using.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

A very good point made by Jon.

Would MS have such a large support base (or even user base) if it wasn't for free copies of their OS's and applications going round?

Has it hindered the development of other OS's such as linux?
Would more people have gotten behind linux for it's low cost, if MS software wasn't so redily available for free?

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Theft: The act or an instance of stealing.
Stealing: To take without right or permission.

I think that pretty much covers it. There is no argument about whether you would not have bought it because you cannot afford it or any other excuses.
Theft of software is stealing - taking something that you don't have a right to take. Simple as that. :)

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

As I pointed out earlier, the "Legal" definition is a little more precise as it adds the "intention to permanently deprive". This is why the so called "Joy Riding" needed a special offence to be created to cover it as the existing theft laws did not apply.

Semantics I know, but in this case it does create the grey areas I alluded to in my earlier post.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

you can copy favourite music tracks to an xbox and while your playing your favourite game you can listen to the tracks you have copied is M$ in breach of copyright by allowing owners to do this, i have looked over the paper work that you get with an xbox and there is no licence that refers to copying any of your favourite music tracks to the xbox hard drive.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

No MS wouldn't be. You would however.
You aren't even allowed to copy a CD to tape to listen to in the car!

The thing is, when you copy something, you aren't taking the original.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

even the cd or dvd supplied to anybody who buys a programme / film or software does not get the original !! All that is provided is a copy anyway !! The original will be locked away in a vault somewhere. !!

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

An intersting aspect of this whole debate is, of course, the part that hardware manufacturers and Internet providers have played and will continue to play.

Hands up anyone that would have brought a cassette recorder if it were not for its ability to copy from radio records CD's etc etc.

Same applies to ISP's just how many people would sign up for broadband if it was not possible to gain access to content and download it.

As for MicroSuck I have no sympathy for them as IMHO the anti-trust cases should have been dealt with by the courts making them upgrade all customers who paid for earlier versions that didn't do what they were meant to FOC.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Have to agree, Sociable. In the 'bad old days', the software industry bleated about floppy disk piracy but manufacturers still brought out hardware and software that could by-pass protection on other companies' disks and used that as a selling point.

We were told that software piracy would end when CDs came in but what happened..the hardware manufacturers sold CD writers to the public allowing piracy to continue and the same thing looks likely when DVDs replace CDs as the common form of storage.

We were also told that costs would come down but that hasn't been the case and games when they first come out are still very expensive. This doesn't excuse people from downloading games, music etc but it does give an insight into the 'ripped off' feeling that the public is experiencing.

As for Microsoft,the number of bugs in their software surely must make it 'not of merchantable quality'. I'd love to see one version of Windows that doesn't have a bug or security vulnerability in it. I'd also like to see one OS that is totally backward compatible with DOS 6.22 so I can play all the old games, which my current 'more advanced' machine can't play.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

There is also another issue.If I own a much loved music CD/vinyl/tape/game that is damaged and it is no longer being produced how do I replace it?There are a lot of music and games that are no longer available to buy even though I/we do WANT to buy them and the original group/company are no longer available to buy them from.IF I could find a way(and I do sometimes exchange/buy from others who do have these items to sell)to actually legally buy the products I want,I would be more than delighted to do so.

Incog.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

PC games used to be about £45, now they range from £15 to £45 with most new ones around £30, so prices have come down alot as PC's have gotten more popular.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Another good thing with PC games is the online CD key detection, i.e. there is no way and never will be any way you can play online without having a valid key, games are increasingly going this way with MMORPG's being released in droves.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

<Cough>Unless you use a different server like the gamespy ones<cough>

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

You can't with MMORPGs
Things like earth and beyond, or star wars galaxies

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

I understand certain warez organisations have set up emulated servers, but they are grossly underpowered at the moment.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Would be a bit hard unless they can break into the genuine servers and copy the developer's code every time there is a patch or game update though.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Yep, I've only heard rumours - even the rumours admit they haven't done it well and and it not even serious enough for the companies to act yet.
http://www.undergroundguides.com/everquestemu.htm

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Heres a pause for thought, all hyperthetical of coarse.

Say I was to write a simple program that randomly filled memory with different values. Then I was to execute the random code produced in that memory. Eventually the law of averages guarantees the code produced will be an exact copy of some copyrighted software. (though this would probably take tens to hundreds of years, or only a few min's, as I said it is all hyperthetical).

How would the law stand here. I havnt copied anyones work, downloaded any software, all the code would have been randomly generated by a piece of software I had writen.

This is probably where software patents stand in, but if I do not plan to distribute the said code, then even software patents dont come in to it...........


Just a thought ?

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

I think if there was a patent on that code, then to use it you would have to pay the royalty fees. A short while ago, there was a major who-ha about European software patents, many people (including me) opposed them because it is so easy for two people to quite independantly write the same piece of code without any copying etc. It basically stunts the growth of software.

The mechanism you described is sometimes used in AI, it only produces really really simple programs though :D

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

I believe the infinate number of monkies that eventually typed the works of William Shakespeare ended up defending an infinate number of law suits issued by an infinate number of lawyers on behalf of Bill Gates who assumed he held all rights to everything cos he once sold a copy of "Word" to guy called Bill and insisted that all rights to anything produced anywhere must belong to him as he only ever sells things under licence so nobody else in the universe could ever own anything themselves.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

I'm not disagreeing that some people just want to cry civil liberties and continue with their illegal ways but the DMCA has been misused or used in a way that was not originally intended by many companies. See this report from the EFF for more information.

The price for copyright reform must not be our digital freedom!

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

At a risk of being flamed to death

[DON RETARDANT SUIT]How many times have you bought some software, game, video etc. Only to find it's pants - Never? or many times? - I know I certainly have and wish you could return it. Who remembers "returns will only be replaced with the same title!". Game stores are a credit in their return policy as this allows people to "try" a game out and if they don't like it return it. When will all stores do this? [/REMOVES SUIT]

I've got games/videos/DVD's/CD's that have only been used once (some not even the whole way through) before I've decided its naff.

Piracy will never end, yes the protection will become more complicated but the methods used to crack it will improve. The downside to this is that prices are driven up to compensate the number of copies on the market against the legit ones. The things that annoys me is the standard price of things £16-£20 for a DVD, £30-£35 for a console game, surely the costs for the production of all titles is NOT the same and neither is the quality therefore why should we the consumer pay the same.

Gets down of soap box!

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Seems to me that all they will achieve is an isolation of the US if they continue to misuse the DMCA.The rest of the world will just ignore them and carry on in it's own normal way.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

ed2k://|file|Michael_Moore_about_filesharing.avi|5705728| 6D501AACE1786A1DFE3EA307A3BF4442|/

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

I'm not going to flame you, but I will say, if you bought a game/video/dvd or application that was crap then you should have either bought it from Game (and taken it back) or read some reviews first.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

What is this supposed to be :confused:

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

It's an eDonkey link for a file download. www.emule-project.net

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Was a link orginally posted on sharereactor.com by the guy that runs the site here is the news item:

Michael Moore about Fileshareing (05.01.2004 22:32:17) from Simon Moon
You want to know what the guy that made Roger and me, Bowling for columbine and wrote Dude, where is my country?, has to say about filesharing?
Look here: Michael Moore about Fileshareing
Its a small 5 MB video, part of an interview it looks like, and very interesting.


to download use emule edonkey2000 or overnet (id suggest emule or overnet)

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Most game reviewers don`t actually have sufficient knowledge or ability to accurately appraise a game.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Yes, the number of games with PC Gamer 95% on them which turned out to be sooooo naff

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Generally if you take a wide cross section of reviews, it's doubtful that you're going to end up buying a crap game, I know I haven't yet managed it.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Warez is theft plain and simple.

Its all fine to bleat on about how you cant afford to buy such and such a game and if it was worth the money you may buy it anyway. What about the developers? They spend several years, yes YEARS making this game entering millions of lines of code, creating thousands of textures, having the wisdom and the creativity to develop levels and then iron out bugs. Yet some people think it is their god given right to rip them off.
The general misconception is that developers make a lot of money. Plain and simple they would be comfortably off, not rich. Think about it, you buy a game for £40, how much do you think the developer gets?

Think carefully.......

Its actually about £6.00 Yes Six whole pounds sterling per £40 game.
The people that make the money is the retail shops and the publisher.
Now ask yourself again, if you sold something for as little as £6 would you be happy if people stole that from you because you were "rich"?

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

These days I wait for my mate to buy a game before I do :)
Unless I'm pretty sure I know it's going to be good, like Jedi Acadamy, or Doom3.
And as been mentioned, places like Game have a no quibble returns policy so if you aren't happy you can just take it back.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

If you are a developer it all depends on what you want out of the programs/games that you have written, do you want money, or do you want your software to be used by as many people as possible.

As I have said before in a previous post, I intend to purchase or legally obtain every piece of software that I have installed on my computer equipment, however if I had not used p2p/warez in the past, some of these programs I would now not be buying.

Trail software is all well and good, but the trail periods are seldom long enough, take a complex bit of software such as Dreamweaver MX or Photoshop, they require time to learn or adapt, or are supplied with reduced functionality.

As Timewarrior2001 points out, developers do not get a very high percentage of profits per game at all, so maybe the answer is for the publishers to make a smaller profit on the software and reduce the cost of it, that way you get more legal software, less p2p/warez usages, and more profits/royalties for the publishers/depelopers.

Jon

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

What do people think about opensource?

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Great idea but rarely has the production values of commercial software (especially where windows is concerned), a lot of linux software (including Linux itself) being a good exception. If it wasn't for open source I'd probably be out of a job (no php, no MySQL).

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

open source software authors have waived their right royalties/profit by making their software open source in the first placed.

Howeved, the problem begins when some software if written that is closed source and then someone claims that it contains extracts of open source code with in, even worse is the reverse, where a open source item of software is found to contain element of closed source code.

My other feelings about open source code is that sloppy programming is less difficuilt to hide, and also the speed of any security/bug patch releases are usually greatly enhanced.

Jon

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Yup.

I love it when someone pulls the "I can't afford it" excuse. I can't afford a Ferrari, so it's OK if I steal one, right? :LOL:

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

No, but no one is suggesting it is. Is it OK for you to make and an exact replica out of scrap metal, that is the question?

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

I don't think that was the original question at all ;) Besides, how many people on here are able to code something to exactly the same spec. as something they'd buy and or download using P2P? Few if none by my reckoning, it's a bit of an irrelevant argument (sorry)

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

make stuff alittle cheaper
dont have staggered release dates around the world and (this is the biggie) make it worth buying ..

do that and more people will pay, of course people will always steal but compnaies accept that if it wasnt for napster the activites of certain movie/song traders or p2p programs would probably still be a mystery to most companies and news sources..

record companies have been losing money on cds for years before napster raised its little head the film industry makes so much money its silly dvd sales (disc) are over 60% more than VHS when it was in its prime.. mind you i could count the number of "GOOD" films last year at the cinema on 1 hand :(

anyway i have a buddy who has 135 DVD-R's of divx movies and about 100 of tv episdoes (dvd rips) he also has about 400 purchased DVDs and box sets of tv shows the ones he downloads he thinks are "okay" and can live without and he wouldnt buy them anyway ..granted thats no excuse as he has stole the copyright but i kinda agree :) if he wanted to d/l friday the 13th 1-10 im easy with that hes never gonna buy em (i doubt he will watch em) but somthing to add to his collection the company lost a bit of money but he wouldnt of paid for em anyway so no biggie he thinks :)

as for me..well im skint and save my money for beer and women as sitting in front of a pc all day is a bit boring (and bad for your eyes) :)

anyway thats enough from me ..

ps anyone send me Star wars 3 and terminator 5 by email?

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

The whole issue of TV shows I find a tricky one. As far as I see it, there is no difference between me taping a show off the television and downloading a copy of it from the internet. In both instances the show has been broadcast and I have made a personal copy of it, and in both instances the company involved would not be receiving any money from me for actually "buying" a copy.

I do not own a VCR. Imagine there is an episode of a TV show I watch, that for some reason I cannot be in for. If I had a VCR I could record it, so I don`t see what the problem is in downloading it from the internet, either way the end result is the same.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

Oi whats wrong with Friday the 13th 1-10, I have actually just purchased them all on DVD recently. At an average price of £6.49 from play.com I couldnt resist. :) Also I have pre-ordered Freddy V Jason even though I saw it at the cinema.

Now yeah Ok the TV issue is a very dodgy area and I personally wouldnt be surprised if most people would think downloading a TV episode was in fact perfectly acceptable.

DVD prices are very cheap if you order online. So I think you can discount the DVD prices, the fact remains whilst people can get it for free they will not buy it. I know it costs them the price of the BB connection, the price of a CD-r or DVD-R, perhaps even the price of the computer if you really wanna split hairs, but that does not give them entitlement to download movies because the DVD's cost too much.

I buy a lot of DVD's from Blockbuster and yes I am aware that when I purchase an ex rental version of a movie then myself and Blockbuster are breaking the law. But hey the DVDS are cheaper then play.com and I dont mind that they are second hand.

ON saturday I bought Halo for the xbox, I begrudged payin £17.99 for it second hand, but it was a game I wanted and I'd rather pay £17.99 then £34.99 which it seems this game still retails for, and I believe someone should have a lot of explaining to do about the fact this game still retails at top whack when its what nearly 2 years old???

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

about tv episodes..

well if you was d/ling Season 3 of 24
1. its not shown in this country so sky 1 paying X amount to buy the show would be losing a viewer
2. No adverts are shown on a Downloaded TV show rip.


But i do agree with ya i kinda wnat TV to work for me, i watch very few shows

angel sg1 enterprise alias sort of thing (geek) and these shows take a long time to get to the UK and when they do get here i have be in at a certain time to watch these ..

now id rather d/l it and watch when I want..not when someone wnats me to watch it..i would pay for that as well

quality wise its usually poorer than watching on a TV but now we have HDTV or PDTV the rips are close to DVD quality and at about 350 meg you cant go wrong ..
check out this link to a website that ONLy releases TV shows for d/l the forum had a good discussion the other week:

http://forum.bucktv.net/viewtopic.php?t=1584



oh and timewarrior you have bad taste in films :P

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

In this example, simply because I can theoretically download the episode, it isn`t going to stop me subscribing to Sky 1 due to all the other shows I could watch, so Sky are still getting my subscription money, so no loss there. Additionally, as I`m a paid up subscriber, that will be factored into the viewing figures when charging for advertising rates regardless of whether I`m sitting in front of the box or not, so again, no money lost there.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

The point I'm trying to make is that when you download a program, game, mp3 or movies you do not deprive the owner of that entity.

The software, film and music industry need to take a more creative approach to copyright and start supplying an obviously high demand.

Take the example of me and my brother. He saw about 5 or 6 movies at the cinema last year and downloaded none. I saw about 50 and download lots.

I go to the cinema to see the latest releases on the big screen, I buy DVDs of films I enjoyed so I have a permanent high quality copy, I subscribe to film channels so I have a large selection of film I haven't seen or what to see again. But I cross the line when I download a film I've missed or doesn't interested me enough to buy the DVD!
Last week I was flicking through the film channels and saw the film Full Metal Jacket was about to start. I haven't seen it and i was thinking about watching it but i was tried and decided to go to bed. If I download that film now I'm a criminal, but if I'd popped a tape in the video I'm not! (tapping a film from the TV is legal for time shift purposes).

There are about 4 million people on KaZaA at any one time and about 60 million people use the service worldwide. If KaZaA was an industry endorsed subscription service charging £10 a month of unlimited downloads it would generate £7.2 Billion ($13 Billion) a year. Which is more that the top 10 highest grossing films of all time put together. source

The "industry" and many people like yourself also equate every download with a lost sale, which is untrue. I have downloaded many items which i wouldn't have bought anyway and many items which I have subsequenly bought which i way or may not have bought had i not downloaded them first.

I will continue to go to you cinema, I will continue to buy DVD's and I will continue to download movies whether its legal or not but i would prefer a legal means it's just the "industry" doesn't currently provide it.

I'll leave you with this from Jack Valenti president and CEO of the Motion Picture Association of America:

Taken from here.

Re: Are 'warez' really theft?
 

i have often d/led a film that i would of never been to the cinema to watch and said oooohh that was good went to play.com ordered the US DVD and job done..

illigal yep but company still made a bit of money :) now if it sucked i would of felt angry that id paid to watch it and would of never paid for it on dvd..

but still no excuse..