Cable Forum - Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

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MadGamer

14-09-2006 19:17

Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

I was having a discussion today with a small group of friends on the subject of filesharing, and downloading of music from the above mention sources in the title. Am i right in thinking that its ok to download these said files, as long as you dont set the program to share the folder that they are put in?

Now i take into account my mates view but he says that the downloading is wrong but the sharing of the files are ok. I say its the other way round. Anyway i said to this female member of the group as long as you set the sharing folder not to be shared and you dont let the program search your Hard Drive and also delete the sharing folder that you wont get caught.

Also am i right in thinking that its ok to download the said files, and keep for your own personal use, and as long as you dont sell them or share them with other users of the mentioned programs your not comitting any illegal offence?

Ramrod

14-09-2006 19:19

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

As opposed to legal offences? :D

AntiSilence

14-09-2006 19:20

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

No, it's not "ok" to download the files, whether you share/sell them or not. It's stealing either way. In the UK you are not legally allowed to copy a bought CD to a cassette (for example) and the same applies to downloading music.

However, it's more accepted that downloading a track or two will happen and they only tend to go after the prolific uploaders. But that doesn't mean you won't get caught. Your IP can be traced every time you're using a P2P application.

Hugh	14-09-2006 19:25

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

And don't forget those nice "h4x0r$" who like to disguise nasty files as MP3 and games, hoping sweet and innocent people will download them.

Having the software that allows file-sharing is legal - using it to download/upload files you don't own the copyright to, that is illegal.

Wicked_and_Crazy

14-09-2006 19:43

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadGamer (Post 34116691)

Anyway i said to this female member of the group as long as you set the sharing folder not to be shared and you dont let the program search your Hard Drive and also delete the sharing folder that you wont get caught.

The file you are downloading will automatically be shared

SnoopZ

14-09-2006 19:49

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

No it's not ok. Try newsgroups if you wanna do stuff like that, don't use p2p.

ADd	14-09-2006 19:53

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

I think you may have been refering to the info given here:
http://www.eff.org/IP/P2P/howto-notgetsued.php

Let me use an analogy. You go and buy a cd from 'cds r us' take it home, and play your cd. The cd has been purchased, and under the license you are allowed to play for home/personal use, and are allowed to make copies for your own use only. Secondly you see a film on tv, you tape with your VHS or DVD burner, but don't pay for it - now obviously one is illegal, and one isn't. The main reason because you have broken the agreement of the license, and the copyright law of the UK.
People have been taping films off the tv for years, and have not been taken to court - indeed I bet it one went into a majority of homes in the UK illegal copies of taped radio or films would be found. Basically file sharing is the same, if you share files (upload and download) you can be taken to court - indeed you could have been taken to court for taping from radio or the film off the tv. The problem for the record industry, is the scale of sharing, and how they are losing out financially. In addition your IP address is broadcast throughout the web, this is true of torrents also, you can be traced (after the authortities have attempted to get your personal info from the ISP). So in theory, yes you can be taken to court for one file, if you are breaking the license, and therefore copyright laws.

So if you don't want to get caught, don't break the law. There are licenses which allow you to share freely, one is called Creative commons:
http://creativecommons.org/

Here is my point, the government haven't taken any VHS or DVD recorder manufacturers to court, or think someone who taped last Thursday edition of Eastenders is **** of the Earth, but mention P2P...oh dear (wag finger) I hate the 'Holier than tho' attitude, I bet if you ask people they have never gone over the 30mph speed limit by 5mph (which according to gov ads can be the difference between life and death), but there you go (rant over :p: )

I use both P2P and bit torrent technologies, and think they are excellent. Where else could I get my Linux distros so quickly (and legally), and grab online books (Project Gutenberg), and creative commons music so easily and quickly ?!? There are many unsigned bands who use the networks too, which the record industry won't give a lookin. I just wish the price of dowloading was reduced, I mean 70 odd pence for 1 track is ridiculous, that's 7 quid for a 10 track cd - which with DRM you can only transport to so many machines, and is far inferior to cd quality (because mp3 is compressed), and you get no artwork/cd case - nothing physical. Anyway I digress....

Finally these make interesting reading:
http://www.betanews.com/article/P2P_...ion/1134249644
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaSentry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediadefender

Even though I share legitimate music, I can still be scanned by the above agencies (and there are probably more), so I use a little program called PeerGuardian2, which is free and uses the info from blocklist.org to block known IP from unwanted intrusion. Obviously it is not perfect, but it does help :)

zing_deleted

14-09-2006 19:59

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

Im a strong advocate against p2p also purely for the reasoning that its not safe and you may get a pull ( and not a good one ) lowest possible profile is the best way everyday

SnoopZ

14-09-2006 20:00

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

The safest way is currently newsgroups though, until something happens with them.

zing_deleted

14-09-2006 20:01

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

I agree

Hugh	14-09-2006 20:06

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADd (Post 34116737)

mmmmm.......

Your analogy falls down when you forget to mention that, after you taped the TV program for personal use, you then allowed as many people as wanted to, to come and make a copy - that is the difference between "taping at home" and p2p file-sharing - not quite the same thing.

MadGamer

14-09-2006 20:10

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

Ok thanks people for the views.

---------- Post added at 19:10 ---------- Previous post was at 19:09 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 34116692)

As opposed to legal offences? :D

ok ok so i spelt it wrong. :D

ADd	14-09-2006 20:18

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

Quote:

Your analogy falls down when you forget to mention that, after you taped the TV program for personal use, you then allowed as many people as wanted to, to come and make a copy - that is the difference between "taping at home" and p2p file-sharing - not quite the same thing.

I'll admit I should have placed a 100,000,000,000 seater cinema in my analogy - with free dvd's given out at the end - however by the letter of the law both situations are illegal. :p:

Chris

14-09-2006 20:27

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADd (Post 34116763)

I'll admit I should have placed a 100,000,000,000 seater cinema in my analogy - with free dvd's given out at the end - however by the letter of the law both situations are illegal. :p:

Indeed, but the spirit of the law is important in this country also. The Copyright, Designs and Patents act is designed to ensure creative professionals - and nobody else - can earn money from their work. It's a necessary safeguard because by definition they can only earn anything by making the work copyable. The Act allows them to do this, but prevents you from doing it.

However, in recognition of the spirit of the law, nobody has ever been prosecuted - none that I know of, anyway, and certainly not successfully - for copying for personal use, such as making backups or recording Eastenders to watch later. The legal system recognises that while this is a technical breach of the law, the intent was not to do anything that the law sought to prevent.

And this aside, two wrongs do not make a right. Failure to prosecute in one instance does not set a precedent elsewhere. What you are doing is illegal, indefensible, and I guarantee, would land you with a sizeable fine if you ever get caught. And the 'if' is only more and more likely to become a 'when' as the industry gets more serious about clamping down on it. ;)

Wicked_and_Crazy

14-09-2006 20:29

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadGamer (Post 34116754)

ok ok so i spelt it wrong. :D

Or maybe it was the point that there is no such thing as a legal offence;)

---------- Post added at 19:29 ---------- Previous post was at 19:27 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnoopZ (Post 34116734)

No it's not ok. Try newsgroups if you wanna do stuff like that, don't use p2p.

its not ok to share via newsgroups either. If its not free and you didnt pay for it, its not yours

SnoopZ

14-09-2006 20:30

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wicked_and_Crazy (Post 34116772)

Or maybe it was the point that there is no such thing as a legal offence;)

---------- Post added at 19:29 ---------- Previous post was at 19:27 ----------

its not ok to share via newsgroups either. If its not free and you didnt pay for it, its not yours

I didn't say it was. And you only share on newsgroups if you upload.

Gareth

14-09-2006 20:31

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADd (Post 34116737)

Actually, there's a couple of points you made that aren't quite as clear-cut as you make out.

Firstly, under UK law it is not legal to make back-up copies - even for personal use - of a CD that you bought. Many european countries, the US, Canada, and loads of other countries do allow this, but not here in Blighty. Interestingly, in a lot of the European countries where this is permissable, you pay a tax on CD-RW drives, blank CDs and other recordable media in order to compensate the record labels.

Secondly, someone did get taken to court over this, and the courts decided that it is not illegal to record a TV show or a radio broadcast, in order to view it at a later time. The so-called "Betamax Case" in the US, whilst not setting a precedent over here, did influence the UK courts massively. That's why VCRs and DVD recorders are sold and used legally throughout the UK, and why the police don't bash down everybody's doors confiscating all your video tapes and audio cassettes.

Similarly, the Diamond Rio case protects manufacturers... although the MGM Grokster case doesn't offer software writers the same protection ;)

Chris

14-09-2006 20:31

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wicked_and_Crazy (Post 34116772)

its not ok to share via newsgroups either. If its not free and you didnt pay for it, its not yours

I think he meant you won't get caught if you don't upload, not it's not illegal ... although it's surprising how many folks seem to think the only real crime is getting caught :erm:

ADd	14-09-2006 20:52

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

Yep my mistake:

Quote:

Restricted acts

It is an offence to perform any of the following acts without the consent of the owner:

Copy the work.

Rent, lend or issue copies of the work to the public.

Perform, broadcast or show the work in public.

Adapt the work.

The author of a work, or a director of a film may also have certain moral rights:

The right to be identified as the author.

Right to object to derogatory treatment.

Acts that are allowed

Fair dealing is a term used to describe acts which are permitted to a certain degree without infringing the work, these acts are:

* Private and research study purposes.
* Performance, copies or lending for educational purposes.
* Criticism and news reporting.
* Incidental inclusion.
* Copies and lending by librarians.
* Acts for the purposes of royal commissions, statutory enquiries, judicial proceedings and parliamentary purposes.
* Recording of broadcasts for the purposes of listening to or viewing at a more convenient time, this is known as time shifting.
* Producing a back up copy for personal use of a computer program.
* Playing sound recording for a non profit making organisation, club or society.

(Profit making organisations and individuals should obtain a license from the Performing Rights Society.)

http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/co..._copyright_law

Still bit of a joke you can back-up your Windows disc, but not your bob dylan album

Halcyon

14-09-2006 20:55

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

Personbally I don't use these programs. They slow down your system ansd come bundled with so much junk it isnt even worth using installing them.

IMO you can share things that you have permission to share, but nothing that is banned from copying or sharing.

zing_deleted

14-09-2006 21:11

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wicked_and_Crazy (Post 34116772)

here speaketh the totally clean ;)

---------- Post added at 20:11 ---------- Previous post was at 20:10 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris T (Post 34116779)

I think he meant you won't get caught if you don't upload, not it's not illegal ... although it's surprising how many folks seem to think the only real crime is getting caught :erm:

although I dont quite think that im not far off lol lol

AntiSilence

14-09-2006 21:13

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADd (Post 34116794)

Yep my mistake:
http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/co..._copyright_law

Still bit of a joke you can back-up your Windows disc, but not your bob dylan album

I was gonna point that out, but someone beat me to it! LMAO

But, I don't agree with not being allowed to legally backup a CD I have bought. I've got loads of CD albums that I have bought over the years, and since I don't have a stereo anymore and use my PC for music, I would be happy to transfer all my bought CD's to MP3 on my PC (as long as I kept the originals ;)). Not that I'm saying that I have done that, of course :rolleyes:

ADd	14-09-2006 21:18

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

Halcyon I completely agree, but at the moment the RIAA is going for the clients too, not sure how they can be held responsible. O and they don't all come bundled:
http://p2p.malwareremoval.com/

And are used by Linux users, like myself, when a new version of the OS becomes available. Incidentally the torrent tracker is from the distros site so you know you are getting a legit file. So if the US, or anywhere else, kills off all the clients (unlikely, but may happen) then it will hit the open source community hard, as bandwidth for downloads costs alot of money, and file sharing helps to reduce these costs (and it is quicker). In fact Ubuntu comes with Bittorrent capability built in, so is the OS illegal in the USA because of what the client is capable of doing, instead of what the user does with it?

AntiSilence it just shows how the laws need updating, and how slow the government is at doing this. Cds get scratched etc, and unfortunately the record industry loves deleting things so one cannot replace them, in this instance a backup is the only sensible thing - the same goes for vinyl too

AntiSilence

14-09-2006 21:27

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADd (Post 34116819)

AntiSilence it just shows how the laws need updating, and how slow the government is at doing this. Cds get scratched etc, and unfortunately the record industry loves deleting things so one cannot replace them, in this instance a backup is the only sensible thing - the same goes for vinyl too

Too right. One other thing: I like Due South alot, and until recently they were not available on region 2 DVD. Now, they could easily downloaded from various places. But of course, to do this would be illegal. But if the producers don't make it available to buy, what do they expect?

ADd	14-09-2006 22:38

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

I just wish they would embrace the technology, ISP love it because apart from gaming at the moment there is not point having 10meg download - doesn't make email, or browsing faster - hence they try to resist giving your details out.

I really think they are missing the trick here, they could make alot of money from this, just by making the downloads more affordable, but big companies are usually dinosaurs, and greedy :) Else why would Ntl be looking at bittorrent and music downloads (can't remember the link for the story).

Then people could do it legally, and not have to be taken to court.

matt_2k34

15-09-2006 07:28

Re: Limewire, Emule, Morpheus etc

my ISP has a neat little tool (fair usage policy applies so i have a view my usage tool, in this it has a breakdown of where the usage has come from, ftp, usenet, p2p, gaming, web and other.)

now knowing this they would know exactly what im doing - how much im doing etc. - Aslong as you ISP is getting your money and your not being a pain im sure they will keep shtum until the law states they *have* to give up ip addys/ details of offenders.

And whats wrong with usenet?? =\ i pay for usenet access does that count :D

Also - what if your using newsgroups for what they were intended for... not illegal now eh ? :)

and dependant on what your transferring - if your a neat little "haxor" like said before distributing your "program" is perfectly legal - unless it causes damage like a virus, malware ...etc. etc.

If people are strugglign for BW (such as people sharing the files to cut costs,) either set up a project on sourceforge or - check out rapidshare.de - they increased their filesizes from 100mb to 300mb this month - and is very very quick :)

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds29031.html

that the linky you meant ADd ?

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