Paodophile Amnesty
 

This is an interesting concept:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3254382.stm

The counseling could help, but why turn in your hard drive when you can just wipe it?

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

interesting article to contrast with debsy's on how women are stereotyped as being non-technical.

notice how the article assumes that it's men that are paedophiles (yes, i'm aware that men are more likely to have problems in this area.. but that's no justification to assume that only men can be paedophiles)

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

That's an interesting point.
The general reaction to stories of school boys who have been seduced by their female teachers is "Woohoo, lucky git! Shagging an older woman!"
Now contrast that with the reaction of people when they hear about a female pupil being seduced by a male teacher: "String him up! Castrate the *******! He took her innocence!"

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

That's a very good point. The only difference I can think of is the possibility of pregnancy, but the boys could have got a STD.

Several points:
Pressuring into such acts - is this different for boys than for girls - are girls so innocent they can't put up as much resistance as a boy/man?

There's the possibility of physical rape, but that would warrant serious criminal prosecution which I think was not what Xaccers was getting at.
But that raising an interesting point - can men be physically raped?

It's strange how if these teenage girls where in public, they would be look at as trouble makers - far from innocent, but as soon as something like this happens they would all be innocent who were viciously attacked by evil incarnate.

ends highly controversial and provocative post

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

That would be to do with just how you wipe it.

If you mean running FDISK and Format then you may be surprised to hear that if you give me your drive just after you have formated it, I can not only get back all the data you had before the format, but also a whole load of data that was deleted before the format as well.

That's just using comercially available tools. Now, moving on to 'specialist' tools, you could format your drive, then throw it down the concrete stairs to ensure head damage and the drive not running again. But.... I could then send the drive to some nice friendly mates at a certain data recovery department, who would then remove the 'discs' from inside the HDD and read them directly (with proper expensive tools I might add).

So... give it up in amnesty, or risk having it 'found' at a later date.

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

AFAIK there's only been two cases of men being raped (ie not deemed to willingly take part) and those two I believe actually had a fantacy about being raped by a woman, so their body reacted when their concious didn't really want to.
Something like that anyway.

Also, the police generally won't get involved in any cases where the child is 13 or over, unless there has been a complaint made.

I think the difference comes from the sexist view we as society have towards girls and boys.
Girls are viewed as being sweetness and light, and not the evil little bitches they can be.
Guys tend to brag about their sexual conquests, it's something good to them, so a boy sleeping with an older woman is viewed as him being able to pull an older woman, rather than the woman taking advantage of him.

The last thing most fathers want to think of is their daughter having sex (even if she's 42 and married!) as it reminds them she's no longer their little girl.
And as you say, girls can get pregnant which leaves the parents with another child to deal with.
Boys are viewed as being able to walk away from a pregnancy, girls can't.

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

Yes I know, but if these are people who are not on the register and have no reason to be suspected, they could wipe the disk go on using it and by the time any investigation came the previous data would be far too fragmented to attract attention.

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

Well..... I would agree with you if paedophiles were informed 4 weeks before arrest, but they arn't.

Bearing that in mind, I would imagin all paedophiles live with the 'risk' of being caught at any moment.

You say that people not on the register needn't worry, but that cannot make any sence. If it did, there would be no people on the register in the first place! The paedo register is a list of paedo's that have been caught. NONE of the people on the list were allready on it if you see what I mean.

Admitedly, people not on the list are at significantly less risk of having their PC siezed, but the risk is still there.

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

I think it's probably those that aren't on the sex offenders register that have more to worry about, after all, they have no idea if their internet traffic is being monitored.

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

OK OK, it's just that it isn't like a gun amnesty is it? You could take the hard drive out into a field and burn it, you look at a gun and see a gun - a hard drive is different. I was just pointing out that I don't think it would be as effective as other amnesties but I applaud the scheme as it sets out to help the individuals instead of witch hunting.

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

That's true, but there are also tools I've seen advertised, or even given away on cover disks, which will over-write the deleted data repeatedly. Yes, it may still be possible even then to recover some or all of the information, but AIUI it's an expensive process and it wouldn't be financially viable to do it "on the off-chance".

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

I agree it would be to expensive for a private company / individual to persue such extreem data recovery, but the Police already have these departments in their employ, so it costs them far less, if anything at all.

Besides, have you seen how much undercover investigations cost?
I watched a prog last night about car jackers..... there were loads of officers watching the thieves for MONTHS. They ended up being arrested by some uniform cops who happened to be in the right place @ the right time.

NOTE: I completely condone the spending of public money in the persuit of crime detection.

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

I've already addressed the HDD question elsewhere, but on the subject of the article, I think it's a good idea.

(Please will readers note that, in the following, I am using the word "paedophile" in its proper sense to mean someone who has an "attraction" to children and not in the Tabloid sense of them automatically being a "child molester")

From what I understand, there are some (not all, but a significant number) of paedophiles who are incredibly ashamed of what they do and how it makes them feel, but they are too scared to seek help to stop themselves from doing it because they're worried that if the information got out they'd risk being "denounced" etc.

(And before anyone says "but all they have to do is stop doing it!", I'd point out that that makes as much sense as telling an alcoholic to lay off the booze or a depressive to "pull themselves together", it just *isn't* that easy)

I am disappointed, therefore, that this proposed "amnesty" would still result in the person (or "man" as has been mentioned elsewhere) being put on the sex offenders register because that still leaves them open to exposure.

Any counselling should be done with the *utmost* discretion and privacy, preferably in private homes so there's no way that the Tabloids or anyone else can "out" these people who are trying to get help.

I disagree with the Lucy Faithfull Foundation's Mr Findlater's comments that "It is in the nature of human sexuality to indulge in increasingly risky behaviour and "push at boundaries", he argues. For paedophiles, this means seeking out ever more extreme material and, eventually, turning their sexual fantasies into reality."

IMO this is nonsense. Yes, *some* people may do this, but to tar everyone with the same brush is as bad as suggesting that people into BDSM will eventually get into more extreme material or even "snuff" (NB snuff movies are a *MYTH*!), this is simply *not* the case.

As the article says "John Carr, internet consultant at charity NCH Action for Children, is more cautious, saying there is no clear correlation between the seriousness of material on someone's hard drive and the likelihood that they are abusing children."

Indeed, I think, although some will certainly disagree, one of the best ways to deal with the problem is, as it says 'According to Donald Findlater, some forces have even resorted to sending out a letter to suspects saying "we know what you've been up to, stop it or face arrest".'

For some paedophiles, this warning may be enough to cause them to stop what they're doing.

In short, I support the idea of the Amnesty, but it would have to be run with great sensitivity to avoid simply driving the problem further underground.

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

Well said Graham, just what I was going to say :)

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

Indeed, child porn could be a weaning drug that keeps the addict from going after the real thing.

I AM IN NO WAY CONDONING THE PRODUCTION OF SUCH PICTURES

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

The basic notion behind this amnesty is not to give hardened Paodophiles a way to avoid procecution in fact the proposal is very specific in making sure this is not the case.

What it could offer though is a chance for those individuals on the margins to volunteer for help without the fear of direct procecution. The benfit for the community is that access to their harddrives would allow further investigation of others in the chain.

As things stand now few, if any, worried by their own suspicions about the path they have found themselves on would volunteer for treatment because of the perceived consequences.

Until operation Ore most assumed the numbers on the margins were relatively low, but sadly what was clear from the results of that operation, was that the numbers involved and especially the types of people involved ran against the percieved wisdom at the time.

The list included police, teachers, lawyers and yes even social workers. In fact just the very people one would have hoped were those least likely to be involved.

There are many theories about why this was true but one that makes most sense to me is that not only do each of these groups come into contact with children but the children they do come into contact with are the most vulnerable.

Sadly the levels of training involved in each of these groups is often insuficient to cope with the emotional demands involved working with such vulnerable people.

I cite as one example the junior officer involved in the Soham case. His work had brought him into contact with a series of shocking and disturbing evidence as part of his duties. Disturbing as it sounds, exposure to such material can and does awaken in some thoughts and feelings that would never had entered their minds without such exposure.

This young misguided man was no Paodophile but unchecked and unhelped who knows where he would have ended up without the help he is now receiving following his conviction.

I would suggest it is just such individuals that this amnesty is designed to help, whereby they have a route to the help they themselves often realise they need without being procecuted for stepping forward and asking for that help voluntarily.

The inclusion of the requirement to submit their hardrives so that others in the chain can be identified and dealt with is I think a stroke of genius. I applaud this "trade off" between treating those who volunteer less harshly for the benefit of tracking down those that don't.

At the end of the day anything which reduces the ammount and availability of child-porn has to be commended.

EDIT: Having just read Graham's post on page one I must congratulate him on making such a great contribution to the debate way to go Bro !!!! Rep point on the way. :)

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

Thinking about this some more, there are, unfortunately, a couple of drawbacks that come to mind:

1) Just "handing over your hard drive" is not as simple as it sounds. Even if the authorities were to take a perfect copy and return it with the offending material deleted, such things tend to take a *very* long time and, in the mean time, the user is effectively without a computer.

Given that computers are becoming more and more used (or even required) in day to day activities, this would not be an option, for instance were I to hand over my HDD (NB all the porn on my computer involves adults, thank you very much!) it would cripple my business because I do all my invoicing, billing, stock control etc on it and, even if I had an entirely separate business computer, the authorities would undoubtedly demand to see *all* my drives, CDs, floppies etc to make sure I'm not keeping a stash whilst ostensibly putting my hands up and asking for help.

2) The "further investigation of others in the chain" sounds very much like a "Prisoners Dilemma" situation whereby if nobody says *anything*, everyone gets away with it.

Ok, yes, they should go after those who actually run the websites etc that *distribute* the material and try to find those who actually commit the abuse, but I'm not sure that chasing the "small fry" would either be a good idea or a good usage of resources.

PS thanks for the positive Rep point, Sociable!

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

Am I right in suggesting the time for the amnesty is a openly pre-defined date? In that case you have time to back up your stuff and hand in the hard drive, but why not simply delete the offending images, the only thing that would make a difference is if a raid was planned a few days later leaving the images readily recoverable?

Would they record names and addresses on this amnesty? If they were recorded as to have handed in the disk - and then sublequently not raided they could just have a copy.

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

No probs nice to have a post worthy of that acknowlegment. :)

I agree with your comments about the "problems" re HD's but as always it will be a case of finding work-arrounds to fit the specific case. Remembering, of course, had they been "Caught" the whole system is likely to have been confiscated anyway.

In the end it's about adding pieces of info to the larger jigsaw so that the bigger picture becomes clearer allowing action to be taken. In this respect every little helps.

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

Oh yes I can see it now, Pervy Pete the local Pedo thinks "I have pervy images on my HDD, I'd better hand it in" DOH!
As if!

If someone thought that there was a chance of them being raided then they would take steps to destroy the evidence themselves, not hand it in to the police.

Wiping tools and a big hammer should be enough to prevent a drive being looked at no matter what the tools are that the police have.
A public waste bin is also useful for this.

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

This is true but if others using the same sources do participate in such a scheme then over time sites like the one used in operation Ore will eventually lead back to "Pete" and all others like him. Given "Pete" had the option to come clean earlier and chose not too do so will invite the full force of the law being applied as and when that day inevitably arrives.

If that results in Pete being Binned and Hammered so much the better!!!

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

call me a skeptic but i dont see much of a point in this if the hard drive is 'turned in' whats stopping the person from going and buying another one and i doubt many would come forward who are mentally sick in my view

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

The whole point is that it is not just about turning in hard drives that's just one very small aspect of the whole situation. It is nothing like the previous gun amnesties whereby people could hand in the gun completely annonamously and with no questions asked. In this case the handing in of the hard drives and any other material is part of the overall process of individuals comming forward before they are found out. By doing so they may be treated more lieniently than they would have been if they were eventually tracked down and procecuted.

Remember there are still several 1000 people uncertain of whether they were caught by operation Ore and other such operations which came out of that.

By including the surender of HD's as a requirement for more lienient treatment they are trying to preserve information which will assist in the tracking down of other sites and individuals.

It only takes one HD to identify a currently unknown source of child porn which when investigated could lead to many other individuals and other sites. This is why HD's are routinely seized in a whole range of criminal cases as they are part of the trail not just in that case but often in many others too.

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

yes im aware of all that i did read the article but i highly doubt a sizeable amount of people will come forward because its a dependancy its like a drug you keep going back for more and your not going to give it up because its not harming you

and you always will think you wont get caught

by offering a chance of an amnesty it will reel some in who are afraid of getting caught by the operations that the police persue but on the whole it wont change much

the current operation proccedure of netting them in the act by luring them in to signing up to websites is the most affective method IMO

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

Agreed, I think it's a great idea and will certainly do more good than harm, but taking away the 'drug' could make them go out and commit the offenses themselves, but I guess that's where the counseling comes in.

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

you have to be tactical on the elimination way of doing things you try and strike at the heart of these sick people the police should be able to find areas of the net where people are actively seeking child porn and get them trying to obtain via the police sites that have been setup

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

AH no puncuation of any kind :p

The police have been doing such things already and I don't thing they would be stupid enough to run off one 'heart'. I've seen programs about the methods they use to remain anonymous.

The amnesty is worth a try.

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

lol im busy no time for that,ill try :rofl:


i meant they need to strike at the heart of the sites,whereever these sickos meet up, so i saw once on TV, they use forums chatrooms etc

sure i never said its not worth it, its just i think it will be highly inaffective thats all

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

Ponder this then.

The arrest of a single Paodophile and the seizure of his hard drive led to identifying the site used in Opperation Ore. Investigation of that site led to the identification of thousands of individuals using that one site.

The whole beauty of this idea is that, whereas the PC's and the Net had become a tool aiding their activities, this new initiative allows the authorities to make use of PC's and the Net against them.

If only one HD is handed in as a result of this amnesty the numbers it helps eventually bring to justice could run into 10's of thousands worldwide.

Re: Paodophile Amnesty
 

it could happen but i highly doubt it but plausable nontheless


yep it is a good idea i never said it was not


yep but a better way to get rid of the HD is to smash it in to a million peices and throw it in the skip ;)