In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

As of 8am today all in house techs (installations) have been told that they will be transfered to a contractor on the 1st of september TUPE this effects aprox 391 people well to say iam dissapointed is an understatement and all the lads i work with were expecting redundancy not this anybody else been affected by this today.

Re: In house techs
 

yep we all feel the same. been looking on law firm web sites regarding TUPE. all terms and conditions must remain the same and they have to carry on with the pension, although it does not need to be exactly the same. can't see the contractors offering us any pension rights, considering the way they treat their own lads.

Re: In house techs
 

When we were affected by TUPE we were told that it is only effective for 12 months and that after 12 months the new company could make changes if needed :(

Re: In house techs
 

im a tech from birmingham if there are any inhouse telewest service techs from anywhere please pm me.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

TUPE only covers you up to & including the day of transfer.

[Edit]- http://www.dti.gov.uk/employment/tra...page16289.html

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Its going to be hard to change your working ethics to that of a contractor now lets be honest they are there to make money at all costs where i like to provide the customer with a good service since i worked for the company now i wont be working for ntl but for a contractor. I'am not saying all contractors are all bad its just such a big switch.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Do you and the lads see this as better or worse than redundancy then?

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

First of all sorry to hear this guys.

I always said that COBI stood for Contracted Out Business Initiative. This is just the start of NTL turning into a company with only outsourced customer service, engineering and installations. In other words a management company only.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

The company I currently work for contracts just about everything out, there are very few engineers and even though my title says "engineer" my job is more like a project manager.

The business is project based long term leading to maintenance of the system after x number of years. ntl could of made this work as they did to a large degree when they were building systems, but contract technicians for a functional network is stupidity. Who in their right mind would want to let a load of contractors hold you to ransome in the future. This is a very short sighted idea from some bean counter.

I understand they took Headend/Switch and Network Techs out of COBI, so perhaps someone has changed there mind on that one, and it will be just install and service techs contracted out.

I know most of the techs would like to be offered the choice of redundancy, as there would be a few takers in a some areas.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

It looks to me like NET tech's will be ok, its just all call centers, all service and installs that will be outsourced. I'm not sure they would dare outsource networks. (i may be wrong though)

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Apparently it was the plan to outsource the whole lot some time before they took them out of COBI.

I was told the same story from two different managers. Quote (something like) "They were planning to outsource the whole lot including network techs" then went on to say "It was close but the merger started moving quicker than expected so it had to be shelved"

It may be a bit of hear say from me, but from my point of view it came from a couple of reliable sources who would of had involvement in implementing those changes.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

So sorry to hear this I really think it is a bad move on there part :(

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

In answer to your question oven_chips we would have taken the redundancy
and then moved on. This way ntl save the hassel and expence of paying off the workforce.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Are you a service Tech from Telewest?

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Ntl probably thinks that by doing this it will have less of a bad taste with the customers. Lets face it there would be blue murder if they announced that they were going to make X amount of engineers redundant. This way they know that its not going to be there problem. :mad:

NTL will be a management company within 3 years. I am willing to make a bet that within 3 years 90% of there engineering staff with be outsourced.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

as a telewest install tech the news yesterday came as a shock because it didnt give us any options as to our future. it was "you will be transffered to our outsource partners" (contractors) no chance of redundancy or a move somewhere else. this has been done because it wont cost ntl/telewest a single penny to get rid of its staff and if you dont like the move you can leave, not an option really as if you do will be intentionally unemployed and not able to claim any benefits from anywhere(government or insurance) so we have no choice but go along with it unless you have another job that is!

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

ah so they screw over their workforce just as much as their customers?

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Indeed they do.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

I suppose one could say "Welcome to ntl" and "Goodbye"

I'm not being sarcastic with that, It's a sh*t situation. ntl has treated employees very badly over the years, it always seemed to be on an individual basis though. Just after I left they seemed to be forcing t&c changes on some departments that treated them badly, other departments were not experiencing this due to different types of work.

I think ntl management have been very clever using conquer and divide tactics, and now they have this latest deal sealed by offloading you guys they have no groups with strength in numbers to stand up to them.

I wish you and everyone else the best whatever you decide to do.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

I totally agree, that seems to be the way its going, roll on! 91 days to go!
I feel sorry for the vast majority of staff who are not offered redundancy (which I think stinks!). I am lucky, (not for loosing my job which I like doing) I have been given the option of redundancy.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

hi new on here, im currently an install tech for telewest in the north east and received the news on tupe on friday, was wondering if any telewest service techs have been informed that they are to be tupe'd as well, another point our contractors that we have at the moment can be sent across the whole of the country, im not in a position where i can travel as i commitments at home, im thinking of resigning then taking them to a tribunal for unfair dismissal under these conditions, does any body have any info that can help me cheers and good luck

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

The citizens advice bureau would be the best place to start. Before resigning I would go along and see them first, they will probably book you a free session with a solicitor. To my knowledge ntl have been taken to court for constructive dismissal and unfair dismissal opn a number of occassions, ntl paid out a large amount on one occassion rather then the embarassement due to the unprofessional way they handled the case.

I guess the contracting company you are transferred to are used to the hire and fire mentality, I think there will be a lot of problems with them taking over employees who are used to a bit of long term stability. (I use that loosely) Companies used to consider the effect on their employees due to a takeover/sell-off, but companies like ntl dont seem to care one little bit.

I see to recall that any unfavourable changes to your contract could result in constructive dimissal if it forces you to leave. I would say working away from home would be unfavourable. I made my point many years ago at ntl when they tried to force a shift system, I said "I wouldn't of taken the job if it was shifts" and made it clear I wouldn't work shifts. The big problem is getting everyone to stick together, everyone complained about the threat of shifts, but when a senior manager came they were as quiet as mice, except 2-3 of us.

Its easy to say stick together, but you will probably end up fighting on your own.

http://www.compactlaw.co.uk/monster/empf8.html

The link should provide a starting point.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

just anote on taking ntl to a tribunal i dont think you would have much success as the transfer has been done in a way that makes this near impossible. tupe conditions mean that anyone transfering must keep the same benefits and conditions for a set priod of time this can be anything from 3 to 12 months but after that contracts are up for negotiation wich means anything goes. as for working hours our contractors get sent anywhere and are forced to work overtime plus dont forget no paid holidays or sick leave. many omy workmates are ex contractors and this is a real kick in the teeth for them to have to take backward step on the employment ladder

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

I think though, there is a case when the new company changes your terms and conditions. A written contract is binding by both parties, if you dont agree to a new contract that presents sustantial changes and you are forced to leave, it is constructive dismissal.

If you can prove to a court that you received changes to your terms and conditions that were not acceptable or reasonable, there is a strong case.
If for example the existing contract says something like "you are expected to work overtime" and you never have worked overtime, a new company trying to force this issue could be classed as unreasonable.

I have heard of a few cases where I wouldn't consider the employee to have a case at all, however they have won their case in court. I recall a case where a new employer taking over a company stopped overtime, the guy won his case because the saturday overtime had become reasonable practice for x amount of years.

I think the big problem with this issue (transfer) is exactly what you have pointed out about Holidays and Sick pay, ntl employees are entitled to this, and if they are moving into a company where it is not an entitlement that is one of the questions that should be asked.

I wonder if there was any consultation with the affected employees, or was it just steam rollered. unfortunately the bottom line is that ntl is not a viable business, and they have to keep cutting costs to stay out of bankrupcy.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Please see below, at this stage regardless of what managers have told you guys you can see that as per the company response to the CWU tupe is still only at the proposal stage. It is just NTL/TW have now formally confirmed to staff they are considering it.

BUT don't get your hopes up..........


Hi,

I have reproduced a part of an email received from Telewest on today’s announcement and the incorrect briefings or messages being put out. As there was a highly personal individual element I do not intend to reproduce in its entirety. Members will see that it is not a done deal, however there are no grounds for complacency and it remains to be seen whether the company can be persuaded from making the final decision to outsource.

Regards.

Brian

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

As I said, I was told this was almost done for ntl employees before the merger, I understand it was also going to include the in-house service technicians. It was not clear if the regional network techs would be affected by this, but there was "rumours" that they were part of the proposed outsourcing.

The cynical side of me would say it's a done deal, but they have rushed that communication out in an attempt to soften the blow after it has been leaked.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

as mentioned this is only a proposal but the cynic in me believes it is a done deal it would be nice to find that the transfer wont happen but im not making any plans just yet. as for service and network techs as far as im aware they are staying inhouse for now unless someone knows different.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

The cynic in me would say, if it is going to happen (service techs) it will happen after they have the install people out of the way.

The cynic in me would say, then it would 'possibly' be followed by the network techs when the fuss has died down.

Theres no way they would attempt it all in one go, from an operational point of view it wouldn't make sense, and from a bad publicity and morale view it wouldn't either.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

yes i have to agree that all ntl telewest techs will be outsourced eventually just leaves a bad taste that firms are able to do this with little regard to the lives of those affected

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

They have enough bad publicity that they're not doing anything to improve upon, so why would a bit more bother them?

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

I wouldn't assume that TUPE is inevitable. Certainly, yes, it is being considered but you have to weigh the "offsets" as far as NTL are concerned.

They are faced with two choices. Retain the existing staff under current contracts and offer redundancies to a number of those in order to streamline or outsource to a third party under TUPE and, subsequently, avoid the additional financial burden of redundancy payments.

Outsourcing to a third party under TUPE, whilst appearing to be a sound financial move initially, represents a potential nett financial loss to NTL which I don't think they can afford to absorb - or offset.

Put simply, existing customers are "contracted" to pay certain fees for certain tech / install services. Any transfer of undertakings to a third party in respect of tech / install services is outside the remit / terms of the existing consumer contract ie. NTL loses the money for service maintenance tech / install services on the part of existing customers.

The bean counters are, most likely, having a bit of a headscratch on the "workaround".

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

either way you look at it come 1st september we could all be worse off

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

TUPE is a a legal minefield and only partially protects workers. And yes it protects existing terms and conditions from day one.

Employers can then and most certainly will try and change them at some time in the future.

The only way to protect yoursleves is to
a) join the union (CWU) www.cwu.org
b) Get someone to act as a rep
c) Start recruiting the contract staff who are often poorly treated
d) Get the union to offer moral and financial support for an Organsing campaign
e) Organise the campaign yourselves
f) If you get over 70% workforce to join the union can go for automatic recognition. If the CWU gets through the hurdles the employer has to recognise the union
g) Its illegal to prevent someone joining a union and you don't have to tell your employer
h) Unions have automatic representation rights in disciplines and grievances even where its not recognised

Fact: union workplaces pay better wages.
Go on - Get organised!
Any questions ? ask me

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Thats all well and good my friend, but by the looks of things the union isn't exactly jumping up and down about any of this...............or have I missed something?

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

In house installation in NTL have disapeared years ago in NTL, there has only been a few left over the past couple of years, i'm assuming that there is still in house installations within ex Telewast? By the sounds of it there is, well unfortunately this is one area that will definately go, as for Service Tech's and Network Tech's there has always been rumours for years that this will also happen, maybe it will or won't.

Unfortunately for Ex-Telewest people, if you had a happy work place when working for Telewest, be prepared for a shock as the fun has stopped now. For the next 5 years or so you will be slowly broken down, every aspect of what is spent from overtime to a set of new batteries will be scrutinized. Since NTL became NTL in in 1999 ish this has been happening. Constant reorganization and cut backs ect. So as is said on the advert "Buckle up people your in for a bumpy ride".

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

on reflection i think NTL are lacking in certain aspects of the buissieness lets look down the line for amoment its still treating its customers badly those that have had a bad experiance certainly those that suffer a poor (install ,housemove) which effects the services they have, dont NTL relise the knock on effect of this thats why they are in the state they are in now its gone too far to bring it back they do not have the balls to sort it out they have just given in to the bean counters. A few weeks ago i was at a road show and one of the presenters asked we need to know why 40% of new customers dissconect after or before the 12 months contract ends i wonder why.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

at the moment the union are in discussions with ntl/telewest as to how long they will honour our contracts after the tupe, ive heard that 3 months is the minimum but im not sure if thats true as ive also heard that it is only upto the point of transfer, can anbody tell me otherwise, thanks

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Very true, they did systematically break the workforce but before they were ntl. I think it was 1996 when they took over the cable company I worked for, the first thing they did was try to force employees to accept the CableTel bonus scheme. We worked for a poor pay and they wanted to hold back around 10% of our salary for a quarterly bonus. They gave up on that idea but instead tackled people individually with bully tactics, the HR department was more like the Gestapo. They looked at my position and because I was in a senior engineering position earning the same as a CableTel network technician, they changed my job title instead of increasing my wages. They of course expected me to carry on doing the same tasks as before, they also tried to get me to sign a new contract taking away the enhanced redundancy entitled I had achieved due to my staff status, and tried to make me work 40 instead of 37.5 hours without compensation. I said "No" and they said "Fine, we will sack you" I said "You do whatever you feel is right" They ammended my contract and actually increased it by £1000.

There have been so many horror stories like this, and so many people just getting up and walking out. There have been countless examples of people applying for jobs internally, offered the position at X amount and then being told they can only have X amount rise and not what they were promised.

They stepped up their activities by trying to take benefits away from the orig ntl broadcast people, they were strong and retained their benefits. They introduced new T&C's for new starters and that caused big problems due to the huge gap in T&C's amongst employees. I noticed when I left in 2001 that they were starting to increase pressure and take away benefits without compensation, and through all this they liked to refer to employees as associates, it was just a polite way of saying you were like something stuck to the bottom of the companies shoes.

Theres no point in talking about unions, I joined a union just before cableTel took us over in 1996. When ntl they took over CWC, the CWU were touting for members, ntl management had always said they had no room for unions, so they played their ace card by doing a deal with a tame union.

That deal with the tame union finally put the nail in the coffin for fair treatment of staff.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Got a mail from BECTU to which stated that "There is no time limit after which TUPE protection no longer applies (many people think it only lasts for a year)"

ntl managers made sure they where not under TUPE as they know the conditions the contractors work under, it seems in the past when ntl have made the bottom end of the ladder redundant they have made sure they only make 100 or less so as to make it 30 days notice but when there are management for the chop its always more than 100 so they get the 90 days norm. Its getting really bad working for ntl as they seem to be taking there time letting us know where the 6000 jobs are coming from, its getting a lot harder getting up in the mornings with the thought redundancy looming.

COME ON NTL ITS NOT HARD YOU KNOW THERE ARE 6000 GOING JUST TELL US AND PUT US OUT OF ARE MISSERAY.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

I think they have been doing the less than 100 trick for a time, I seem to remember they made 97 or 98? redundant in one region to keep under the magic figure.

I think they made a further number redundant after the dust had settled from that one in the same region. There is one manager in that region who seemed to take great pride in making people redundant, and was very much matter of fact about not caring when the managers under him had to re-apply.

There are quite a few rotten apples in the ntl barrel, and they always seem to survive.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Sad news, trade union backing is required here. contact AMICUS the U.Ks largest private sector union at www.amicustheunion.org Best wishes to all staff involved.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Which company is managing the call centres?

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Lets hope their time has come... Im getting fed up of being told telewest do such and such better or telewest do this and ntl dont.

Its true they do, but its only the way of working or things staff at ntl have wanted for years. The things that get put on the back burner when the next bi-monthly re-org comes along as the management are too busy building their empires or covering their asses.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

IBM i think.

People in ntl need to join BECTU so we have a voice it seems ntl are just walking over us at the moment, fair enough if they have to make cuts but please be fair at least offer redundancy, I would rather live under the arches than work for the contractors around here.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Ntl have gotten bored with ripping off there customers, so now they have turned there attention to there staff.

What NTL don't understand is if they lose long term members of staff in this underhand way. There is no way in hell they will ever get them back on there side.

When the problems start because all the talent has left you will see churn go through the roof. I for one have no time for Senior mismanagement at NTL , And i realy do feel for those that are now being crapped on from the board room of NTL.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

All Telewest service techs,
Have a look at wednesdays AM routing there will be a meeting.
More than likely along the same lines as installs

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

just spoken to some service techs who have just received texts saying they have a meeting in the morning, doh

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Just heard on radio BBC2 business news that BT are taking on about 1600 techs and engineers.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

After getting over the shock of this i have read a letter which i recived with an imformation pack i quote " Following the recent announcement by steve burch concerning the outsourcing of certain areas of our operations id like to share with you our proposals for instalations. Following the completion of the merger at the begining of march installations was identified as an activity where the company could create a clear and consistant operational approach benefiting our customers, as well as achieving synergy savings by potentially transfering our remaining in-house operations to our outsourse partners. Therfore, allowing us over time, to meet our other key objectives of increasing effciency and growing revenues.

this bit concerns me. Subsequently, we carried out two seperate pieces of work to validate this approach. Firstly, the financial and strategic assumptions were tested. Secondly, we've worked with a small groupe of UNION and COLLEAGUE representatives to identify any alternative approaches that we may not have considered during the original planning process". So these people have been having meetings so will i be able to get the minutes of these so called meetings to see how they came to this conclusion.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Do not join BECTU as these muppets have done absolutely nothing for us over the years, i have and many others have joined CWU, these have actively supported us over the past few months and have encouraged and phoned to make sure we get more people to join them.

Over the years i have never heard of any talk or help concerning the job losses and re-orgs that we have had. There was a vote recently as to wether people wanted to have union representaion, the vote was worded such as to wether we still wanted BECTU to stay a the recognised union or not at all. Obviously most voted for at least having a union, not do we want a diferent union to represent us. Basically a vote for them is a vote for the management.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

sollp, can you clarify something for me.

Wasn't BECTU the tame union that ntl chose to get into bed with and do a deal when the CWU were posing a threat just after the cwc merger?

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

A BIG yes.

Happened again just recently, the vote i just explained, they new that the merger was inevitable and the vote was worded like i explained. They know that support for CWU is increasing and the vote was a farce basically.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

I thought so but couldn't be sure.

I joined an equally useless union with a company I worked for before ntl. That company did a deal with the "Dustmen and cleaners union" they were no use and played a clever trick to make members think they had secured a better rise than they actually had. I am still a member in fact, and have been since 1996. As far as I was concerned it was useful if I ever needed representation, I would of changed to the CWU if they had been recognised, but didn't see any point moving from the GMB to BECTU.

I wish all you guys the best of luck.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Hi all
ive been an ntl employee for 9.5 years and this news has came as a massive shock to me,however my manager has been putting his feelers out over the past couple of days and apparently an ntl service truckroll currently stands at £20.00. and there is currently no contractor who can deliver a service call for this price.Judging by the amount of poor quality stb,s we put in do you think ntl will keep paying a contractor for repeat calls???

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

YES, if it mean't that overall they made a saving. Quality and standards mean nothing when they are saving money.

Think you'll find it cost more for a service visit than £20.00, more like £50.00+

Where abouts have you been working if this has been a massive shock?

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Nope.My manager in Teesside service dept quoted me £20 on good authority from the same guy who delivered the cull in installs this week.I must admit,i did think this number was a bit low but we,ll just have to see??

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Exactly.

Its debateable whether they do make a saving company wide though. Cost per truckroll may directly fall, but it will be passed on through other departments/costs, poor customer experience and higher churn.

I expect the figures look fab on paper though, at ntl thats all that counts.

I find it hard to believe that a company the size ntl is now can pay another private firm per truckroll who takes slice of the profit for a cheaper cost than in house. If that is the case then ntl need to be looking closer to home for their problems and inefficiencies.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

i cant see how the company will last with the state of the contractor, how they treat there staff, and the turnover of staff

---------- Post added at 23:47 ---------- Previous post was at 23:38 ----------

dont worry mate just leave your drill on hammer, and your a contractor already

---------- Post added at 23:49 ---------- Previous post was at 23:47 ----------

money talks, and thats what were gonna lose now

---------- Post added at 23:51 ---------- Previous post was at 23:49 ----------

its time to pull our pants up, we've been f**ked again!!!

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

That's a too simplistic way of looking at it.

Firstly by outsourcing the £20.00 it moves it looks better on the ntl Balance sheet. It stops being a direct overhead and is now a bought in 3rd party service. Which can be reviewed and retenderd for every few years to make sure the price stays low.

Also I'm pretty sure that £20.00 doesn't include what ntl pay for in Pensions, Sickness benefit, Holidays, Sickeness Absence.

By hawking you all off to Map, Avonline, Kellys - whoever, they save on all that.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

hi im a tech who will be tupe'd to contract in the north east on september 1st, can anyone give me any insght as to the terms and conditions that i can expect once this happens.( i have always felt that my job was a case of start at the bottom and work your way down)

---------- Post added at 13:43 ---------- Previous post was at 13:36 ----------

as for the service techs who had recieved a text yesterday morning saying there was a meeting on wednesday morning, they recieved another text in the afternoon apologising and stating that they should not worry, their meeting wasnt about tupe but working practices, does this mean that the installers should worry, *****s

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Hiya peeps,

Believe the Telewest service techs meetings today are around changes to their working practise, shifts etc. Welcome to the big 5 hahaha.

Contracting out service techs has undoubtedly been looked at, and i wouldn't rule it out.
Rates (aug 05) paid to local contract co were just over £21 per hour. This is the contract company, not the tech. Typical day (7.5 hours) will see between 10 and 12 jobs completed. @11 jptpd this equates to just over £15 per truck and doesn't require the cable co to pay sickness, holiday, pension etc etc.

Of course the bean counters do not factor in the cost of maintaining the network that they are letting all and sundry play with. Here up north the lack of a disconnect policy, the removal of the role of jumper tech, the lack of quality inspections etc means that, if things continue as they are at present, the network will need knocking down and building again.
I dont blame contractors for doing what they can get away with, but the idiot who decided that contractors are the way forward needs his head looking at.

If you think Im exaggerating about the state of the network take a look at these piccies - see if you can guess which ones were taken before contractors were let loose :dunce:

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

You can tell me I'm wrong but the pics of the tidy cabs look like they show the cabs before they have any customers on them, or very few customers, and I would suspect you are trying to exaggerate a point.

In my experience using contractors is fine but they need to be properly supervised.

There's no excuse for cabinets to be in the state that you have shown whether they have been messed up by contractors or otherwise.

It's down to ntl - full stop to properly maintain their network.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

No its not totaly down to ntl, if the contractors removed old jumpers as they removed one and drop cables when they did a repull etc there would be minimal maintainance to do, yes ntl have let it go but still the contractors still have a hell of alot to be blamed for.

I have no idea what the hell will happen if networks and service go as well:Yikes:

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Belive me the state of the cabinets you see in those pics IS country wide, this IS because of having contractors yes, and also a policy of having zero Quality control concequently this has happened.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

The state of cabinets started to go down hill in Wales when, they got rid of the two guys looking after cabinet maintenance. The condition that cabinets were getting in prompted them to appoint approx four preventative maintenance technicians, there job covered all aspects of maintenance but a fair amount of time was taken by the replacement of locks and cabinet doors for damage carried out by contractors during installations.

I remember one of the service techs telling me about challenging a contractor who was using a large screwdriver to open a DP cabinet. the contractor replied "We keep asking but cant get keys" The contract company appear to be able to complete the job cheaper than ntl, and the main reason is the quality of work, lack of tools/equipment and in some cases poor cheaply paid employees.

Pay your money and take your choice, but the apparent savings for installs will result in increased service calls and costs being transferred to another department who are sorting out the mess.

I would never say every contractor has no morals or pride in his work, however they generally work for a hire and fire company under poor conditions for an employer who doesn't give a s**t about them.

PS: Didn't ntl also make most of the quality checkers redundant?

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

This is my point, it's throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Using contractors "should" not affect the state of the network as longs as:

1) They are supervised properly.
2) Regular quality audits are undertaken.
3) Monthly or even weekly progress meeting are held.
4) Proper penalties are in place for non-conformance

If ntl choose not to police their contractors they are to blame for the state of the network.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Agreed

yes they got rid of the few QC people, i know for a fact the contractors in my area are reasonably payed, have all the tools test equipment provided for them and also the uniform, keys are constantly checked, they are constantly told about the things they do wrong, also when they do a good job, but still doors are left open or broken, jumpering is a joke, cable routing in cabs is a joke, the install in not done to the proper ntl spec, but hey it works at the end of it!

And yes it is NTL's fault for this

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Cab1 pic is after a cab audit (remember those?) about 3 or 4 years ago. It is presently not in the same state as cab2 or cab3 which are in a high churn/ rented accommodation area, but it looks nothing like that now.
Cab4 is near a industrial estate, so only has a few subs. Cab5 is an example of splitters being fitted instead of pulling out redundant drops.

These were used to give a contrast between how a cab should be (they all were once) and how bad some of them are.
Of course not all cabs are in the shambolic state illustrated but I could provide plenty more that are well on the way. How long before they all are?

The replies from other franchises show that this is not limited to teesside, and the guys working on the network day in day out will know the cost of this decision.

The point here is that both NTL and Telewest have a host of dedicated technicians (both installs and service) who try to take pride in the job they do. As the recent news confirms, they are not at all valued by the company, who favour contract services at the detriment to the network.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Well said mate. :tu:

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

There is however nothing better than having people you can rely on to start with. The last company I worked for had a very small Quality Control team, in fact the new quality control manager was a little worried about the small number. The company however treated employees very well and the vast majority took great pride in their work, the ones who didn't were not around that long.

If you have people you can't rely on, the quality control people need to be a larger department. ntl in my old region used to quality check every install, now with no quality checkers and all the work going to contractors of varying quality, there is a problem.

I know they are not adding many new customers due to there being no build, but the churn rates probably mean there are quite a lot of disconnects and installs going on.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Yes TUPE is not a done deal.
Redeployment could easily be an option into service and the new London area manager has confirmed this possibilty though no numbres have been floated.
TUPE offers limited protection and it seems likely that at some stage the contract firm will start to try to change T&Cs

Thats why you need to stick together, join a union and organsie yourselves. BECTU has a small bargaining unit in NTL which has recognition rights. The CWU has recognition rights in Installs, service and networks. AMICUS has no recognition in any firm and has its history in engineering not communications.

It's better you were in a union than none at all. My preference would be the CWU but its up to you.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

The pic of cab5 looks suspiciously like the one I'm connected to (M49308).
I went with the service tech to have a look at the cab when my phone went off. The tech couldn't get a dial tone at the house, so went to the cab & lo and behold an installer had pulled the DSide out & connected someone else to it!

The amount of splitters also explains the constant freezing pix I get as well, most of them weren't even tight!

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

I have worked for both Telewest and NTL both inhouse and as a contractor, on installs, service and as a supervisor. I state this purely so you can see i have experience.

There is a massive difference between the way inhosue and contractors work yes, mainly down to the way contractors are treated by the cable companies, no real support is given, and stock is very hard to get hold of. We went through a stage where we couldnt get STB or SACM's at all, yet the inhouse guys had loads but we were still expected to do the installs? How? Cab keys were a constant battle to get hold of, try and we would they just wouldnt give us any, yet still expected us to do the work without causing damage, and they would frequently throw more work than we could handle at us, so you would take on more engineers then the work load would just disapear once again. I had weeks where i would be sending engineers out with 15-18 jobs each per day, then next week they would be lucky to have 3 or 4, when this is happening its impossible to organise staffing levels properly.

I can not speak for Telewest as it has been some time since i have had anything to do with their network, but as for NTL, from where i have worked mainly around the midlands area, the network is a disgrace especially around the Leicester area. The cabs are a disgrace and its impossible to find what you are looking for and spare drops, i have been to cabs where there are not enough taps for the demand by far. As for jumpering, I came accross a lot of faulty connections on E and D sides, which would cause problems with jumpering, so some engineers rather than ringing up would just pull cables, or wouldnt check to make sure a pair was dead before connecting to what they had been assigned, a lot of this was due to problems with NTL's routing dept, and when you tried to phone them it was a joke. I spent 3 hours on hold one day trying to get a pair i could use, it just want possible to speak to them on every job, or you would only get a couple done each day.

As for working for contractors, then there is a potentional to make a lot of money, depending on which company you are working for, when i was installing i would regualry do £3500 per month, ok i was doing a lot of work for that money. But the company I was working for lost the contract and everyone got TUPE'd accross to another firm and the pay structure was completely different, whereas i was making £300 a day for instance under the new scheme i would only have been £120 or so, so it wasnt worth it for me, so i stayed with the existing company and am now very glad i did as i have a brilliant job that really doesnt involve doing all that much to be honest, but is varied and very interesting.

At the end of day, it may come to something or it may not, those that have been around in the game for a while, will know that whenever a rumour like this comes out it always gets blown out of all sense very quickly, and what people are saying very rarely turns out to be true. When the rumours about the company i worked for loosing the contract started, there was uproar instantly that the company was going bust, they wouldnt be able to afford to pay the wages etc etc, and a lot of the crews downed tools and didnt come into work, hiding the vans etc as a means of expecting to be paid for their work, now i can understand that there are going to be some concerns, but that kind of behavour only makes matters worse, and all it ended up doing was getting them the sack and reported to the police. Whereas if they had listened to what they had been told then they would have been fine, the scarey thing was most of them had been through the process several times before as well, utter stupidity. I got told repeatidly i was a fool for staying with the company after they lost the contract as i would be out of work within weeks etc etc, after a couple of months they new contrators got rid of a load of them, and they all came looking for work from the origanal company, hahahaha who's the fool eh.

Listen to what is been said, dont take it all for gospel granted, but dont assume they are out to screw you over either, at the end of they day, they still need people to do the work, and without techs/service/network etc etc they have no business.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

When I was at ntl (A long time ago now) I'm sure the contractors had to supply their own keys then later on they were able to get them from ntl stores, after all they are readily available from the cabinet makers. I recall being at the stores when some contractors were after keys, they didn't get them because they didn't have the necessary paperwork at the time. The contractors were going on about requesting them but their supervisor would not authorise it.

At the end of the day the majority of contract companies, even good ones have to cut to the bone to keep costs down. Companies like ntl issue a contract for tender and then start playing one against the other to get the cheapest deal. Most respectable companies do not take the cheapest deal, but ntl have to cut every corner to keep them in business.

I have been in a situation where I thought I wasn't going to get paid, and I held on to equipment worth a similar amount to my wages. I made sure my manager knew about it and he didn't have any problem at all, rumours about financial problems are often rubbished by companies because they know acknowledging the truth could finish them, but denying it sometimes buys a bit of time.

Many of the CWC areas taken over by ntl were a shambles, and I'm not just talking about the London areas. I had a look at quite a few cabinets around Leicester after I left ntl and was working for another company commissioning Cheetah. The cabinets in Leicester were far too small and obviously thrown together as cheaply as possible, the engineers in that area seemed to think they had a good network. There were things that impressed me about the CWC areas in general, and that was their Data network around the hubsites. It didn't appear to be thrown in as an afterthought like the orig ntl areas, where there was multiple equipment for different platforms.

However impressive it looked though, it seemed to operate very slowly.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

CWU is the most appropriate union for the communications industry and also by no means a 'tame' beast - when threatened they bite back.

They will also provide all members with representation and will provide FULL training and support to anyone interested in becoming a rep. They have TWO dedicated training colleges in the UK and a number of events held around the country.

As a member you will be entitled to go on many of these courses, they will provide FREE transportation, FREE lodging, FREE food and FREE advice. They have severals courses on being a rep (basic, intermediate & advanced), employment law (basic, intermediate and advanced), redundancy law, organising a union, and many more.

What's more, where the employer does NOT recognise a union (such as in NTL) and refuses you paid leave, you can take unpaid leave from NTL to take the course - protecting your holiday entitlement - and the union will COMPENSATE you for the lost pay.

I was a member for a few years while in NTL. They appointed me to the local committee so I would have direct access to my local officers, who educated me on unions and told me what I needed to know on starting and building up a union, and also paid for/sent me on a youth education course last year, and have always backed me 200%.

CWU have recognition in engineering grades within Telewest and I believe this has carried over onto relevant NTL grades after the merger.

The key to a strong workforce is ORGANISATION. Join the union, get familiar with how a successful organised union works, get all your colleagues to join and do the same. Once you know how 'the game is played' you will be in a much stronger position to know how to fight back, how to anticipate the company's next move and the best way of fighting that, and so on.

BECTU is only brought up because they had recogntion within NTL Broadcast. This in itself was simply a carry-over from the fact National Transcommunications Ltd, an old broadcasting company (what we knew as NTL Broadcast) was acquired by CableTel (what we think of as NTL now), at and AT THAT TIME this acquired company already HAD union recognition with BECTU. When CableTel renamed the whole shebang as 'NTL' this didn't mean BECTU had recognition spread across the company. And now, NTL Broadcast has now been sold off again, and no longer part of NTL.

Therefore BECTU for all intents and purposes are irrelevant to NTL again, except for where they have made already have built up members. However BECTU is a very SMALL union and does not have the strength to make a big difference in a company like NTL.

While I was part of the CWU, BECTU were considered something of a pain as they would interfere in CWU organising campaigns, jumping into bed with NTL management whenever we were building numbers within an NTL office. BECTU did not respect that we were 'present' at these offices and therefore, as they should, leave it to us to sort out - they pushed us aside to sign a deal with NTL instead.

This did not stop the CWU informing me of BECTU's activities within NTL when I joined, and asking if I'd prefer to sign up with them instead. (As the CWU prefers to play by the rules). I said no, and I'm glad I did. I now know that the CWU has the network of some 300 local branches nationwide and the contacts/knowledgebase you'll need, BECTU probably won't have a local base to you within 200 miles and so you'll feel like you're on your own with no-one within local distance to help you when you need it.

My advice - join the CWU, and email/ask to meet with your local branch officers - explain you're in NTL and that you want to organise a union - ask if you can join the local branch at the next AGM elections as I did - that will get you 'in' and from there it will be easier to stay 'connected' to the rest of the union, and you can represent your workforce inside the union. Then ask to go on courses so you can find out all you need to know to be a good rep.

If you do NOTHING and people do NOT get themselves organised, NTL engineering WILL be outsourced. If you can pull off a miracle and get the engineering workforce organised and signed up YESTERDAY, there's still time to kick up a fuss and show a determined, united front against this plan.

Good luck :tu:

---------- Post added at 10:10 ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 ----------

Also, this is an important related news item from the CWU's own website on what they are doing for the NTL/Telewest engineers:

Please note: CWU only have recognition in engineers grades, hence why they are only able to address issues and negotiate for these grades. CWU are unable to negotiate on behalf of other units due to lack of recognition (i.e. lack of members).

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Spot on iSteve
'cept recognition only applies to existing bargaining units, installers, service and networks in Telewest areas.
The CWU needs to assess its strength in NTL units before approaching NTLi - which it will do.
NTL reps are already in touch with Telewest ones.:)

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Thanks joehill :)

I do know that CWU are very keen on attracting new members within NTL and are building up numbers so that they will be able to extend recognition to new areas within NTL. However this is providing easier in some areas and much harder in others.

Ultimately it is down to individuals taking the initiative, and starting an organising campaign within their workplace. It's then collectively down to all the staff joining up, helping with the campaign and staying informed. CWU cannot get recognition without the numbers and the support of staff.

Anyone interested in finding out more should call the CWU Organising Department on 0800 731 7434. Or better still, you can call/email Doug Rafferty, he is the CWU's telecomms organiser and responsible for CWU recruitment within NTL: drafferty@cwu.org, 07714 504426. He will be able to answer any questions you may have about organising and let you know the best way of getting more information and getting involved.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Your points are most valid, ntl however seemed to strike a cosy deal and recognise BECTU very quickly after some CWU reps (who already had ex-CWC members who transferred to ntl in the merger) started appearing at ntl sites to sign the workers up.

CableTel had owned NTL Broadcast for a few years when this happened, and CableTel had always mouthed their distaste for unions through management and HR. To suddenly find a communication from CableTel management by then calling themselves "ntl" claiming to recognise a union was a bit of a shock. It all became clear however that they had done a deal with a tame union like BECTU, because they probably feared the CWU getting a foothold.

I joined a union (not BECTU or CWC) before my company was taken over by ntl, after being warned about CableTel's practices. That was back in 1996 and I'm still a member to this day, I am not generally a union follower and they are not much use in the communications industry, but I keep paying as there is always the representation if I ever need it.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

They are leaving it a bit late imho!!
I've been nagging them to start aggressivly recruiteing, but alas they just meet in a pub?!?!?!

I think its tooo late, they missed the oppertunity about 6mths/1 year ago

---------- Post added at 22:55 ---------- Previous post was at 22:54 ----------

Yes I know, my spelling sucks. toooo much red wine :-)

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

The only thing the CWU can do without inside help from staff is to hand out leaflets, outside offices. This rarely works as the managers can just confiscate any leaflets when staff enter the building and warn/scare people off joining. This also triggers management off to the fact you're organising there and they can act to stop it dead in it's tracks.

The only really successful way to recruit is for unions to have supporters working inside the workplace. Unions aren't about headquarters and officers, they're about workplace unity and organisation. The structure (officers, training courses etc) are only there to provide backup, support and help/advice. The heart of any successful union is in the front-line reps - and activists - in the workplace.

The vast majority of successful union organising campaigns happen when there is already a small but hardcore support base within the company they are targetting, people who are prepared to convince their fellow coworkers to join, spread leaflets outside work, organise meetings, educate others on how unions work, etc.

If they've got that, then they will provide all the support that's needed to those activists - as much advise and training as they need.

In my own case, I had my own enthusiasm and the support of my union, but my co-workers were not interested in finding out more or getting involved and so unfortunately my efforts didn't get very far.

The key thing to understand about a union is that you ARE the union - you, and your fellow co-workers. The group you send your dues to is just your support network (and a very good one at that). The staff reps/actiists need the support and backup of their union - but by the same token, the union cannot function or even get off the ground without the full support of a dedicated group of staff willing to serve as activist reps within the company

Maybe I need more drink in my life too, I had a nasty habbit of taking life too seriously ;)

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

All network engineers anf half the Service guys are members in Surrey!!!!!

Lets 'ave it

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

We were made redundent here in N.Ireland last September as we were deemed 'no longer financially viable'. We seen it coming tho,over the year we lost 8 tech's taking us down to 3 so when none were replaced,we knew it was inevitable.
BTW,our Network Tech's over here are waiting to hear of their future.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Switch Engineers are now on 90 days, dont have the figures of how many are going. There will less to keep the telephone switches running after this :(

CWU Telewest Section Meeting
 

CWU Meeting, to be held
St Elpheges Center
118 Stafford Rd Wallington.

If you live near, you owe it to your self to come

"Fight the Power":2up:

---------- Post added at 22:34 ---------- Previous post was at 22:31 ----------

Spoke to one of the switch guys last week, less than impressed to say the least!!
Problem being, specially for the ex-CWC guys is complacency, been here how many times before??? If they treat the managers like dirt, doesn't really look good for the front line soldiers

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

It sounds like more are going in South Wales, there seems to be a bit of concern and they have already taken hits in the switch area over the past few years. I dont see how they can maintain the switches with any less, they have three switch sites a fair distance apart.

I guess it will depend on the call-out rota being reduced to an unacceptable level, the way they are going there will be so few they will be on call every week.

The Switch, Headend and Network Techs are the areas I normally get to hear about, but the jungle drums have gone very quiet the past few weeks. I reckon that could be a sign that people are worried.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

TUPE law is a joke and has been hi-jacked by companies who want to avoid paying redundancy payments. They outsource the contract and transfer employees knowing full well that over a certain time tupe'd employees will be eventually made redundant.Happened to 640 of us when we were TUPE'd from IBM to Sanmina SCI, 6 months later the headcount was cut to 320, 1 year later another 90 odd were made redundant(under 100 redundancies means only 30 days notice given) 1 year later closure and jobs moved to Hungary.During the 1st round of redundancies where they let go 340 people ,18 employees who had joined a union took them to a tribunial in 2003 as sanmina were still employing contractors on site,all 18 eventually won their case and collectivley were awarded £180K.S anmina appealed the findings and last week 16 of the 18 of the appeals were upheld .Only protection you get from tupe is comparable terms and conditions are offered by the new employers,our ibm pensions were deferred till you reach age of 50 which suited employees over 50 with long service,we then were offered into a money plus scheme which was in no way comparable.Your terms and conditions are safe under Tupe for 2 years , my advice to yous is get yourself in a union

Hope everything goes well for all affected but looks like ntl are pulling a fast one here, im more bitter towards IBM as i gave them 20 years good service and they transferred me to a cowboy outfit knowing full well the remit was going to end up in us losing our jobs

best of luck

---------- Post added at 09:55 ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 ----------

also ibm tuped 530 people to lenovo in feb 2005 by september this year it is expected only 190 will remain

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Telewest have 55 switches which were manned on a 1 man per switch basis, Ntl operated on 1 and a half switches per man and had about 70 odd switch engineers left after the last cull. I've heard that around 20 or so engineers will have to go now that they have rationalised the areas to cover both company's switches. I don't expect for one minute this will be the last round for switch engineers. Both Ntl and Telewest have a network of transit switches as well as the local ones. I doubt they will need both sets of transits in the near future. It is envisaged that all switches will be replaced by VOIP technology in the next 5 years or so anyway. :erm:

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

I dont suppose for one minute it will be the last cuts, they had 2 men per switch not that many years ago. To have one man per switch is almost impossible from an on-call point of view, its no wonder comments have been made about people not being happy with the callout rota. I did a very short spell of one-in-two call out rota, and I was very pi**ed off with the situation.

Even when there were 4 headend people spread between 2 sites, it averaged out more like 1-in-3 with holidays and sickness. And believe me the sickness will go up if they start tightning the screws even more. They can make all the threats they want about disciplinary procedures, but putting people under that sort of pressure will make them go off sick with stress.

I cant believe with 3 switch sites in South Wales, about 20 miles between the closest and about 60-70 miles between the furthest, how they can cope with one man per one and a half switches.

When there has been cuts before in switch, network and headend, people have been moved around to save them. These people are usually the more experienced who are not directly in the front line, I guess these guys must surely be at the end of the road now.

I bet the Telewest switch guys are really happy about the merger.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

---------- Post added at 12:59 ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 ----------

There is not any time limit regarding TUPE

Some Info On TUPE
 

This brief describes the purpose of the TUPE regulations, what is covered by the regulations, the employer and employee position in a transfer, redundancy and union recognition.
TUPE is an acronym for ’Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981’.

Purpose
The TUPE Regulations preserve employees’ terms and conditions when a business or undertaking, or part of one, is transferred to a new employer. Any provision of any agreement (whether a contract of employment or not) is void so far as it would exclude or limit the rights granted under the Regulations.

The Regulations have the effect that:

Employees employed by the previous employer when the undertaking changes hands automatically become employees of the new employer on the same terms and conditions. It is as if their contracts of employment had originally been made with the new employer. Thus employees’ continuity of employment is preserved, as are their terms and conditions of employment under their contracts of employment (except for certain occupational pension rights).

Representatives of employees (i.e. the TSSA) affected have a right to be informed about the transfer. They must also be consulted about any measures which the old or new employer envisages taking concerning affected employees.

Transfers covered by the Regulations
The Regulations apply when an undertaking or part of an undertaking is transferred from one employer to another.

Some examples of transfers are:

where all or part of a sole trader’s business or partnership is sold or otherwise transferred;
where a company, or part of it, is bought or acquired by another, provided this is done by the second company buying or acquiring the assets and then running the business and not acquiring the shares only;
where two companies cease to exist and combine to form a third;
where a contract to provide goods or services is transferred in circumstances which amount to the transfer of a business or undertaking to a new employer.

The Regulations can apply regardless of the size of the transferred undertaking. Thus the Regulations equally apply to the transfer of a large business with many thousand employees or of a very small one (such as a shop, pub or garage) and apply equally to the public or private sector.

Transfers not covered by the Regulations
The Regulations do not apply to the following:

transfers by share take-over because, when a company’s shares are sold to new shareholders, there is no transfer of the business - the same company continues to be the employer;
transfers of assets only (for example, the sale of equipment alone would not be covered, but the sale of a going concern including equipment would be covered);
transfers of a contract to provide goods or services where this does not involve the transfer of a business or part of a business;
transfers of undertakings situated outside the United Kingdom.

Those provisions of the Regulations which relate to dismissal of employees because of the transfer, the duty to inform and consult representatives and the failure to inform and consult them as required, do not apply to employees who, under their contracts of employment, normally work outside the United Kingdom.

Employer’s position in a transfer
Under the Regulations, when an undertaking is transferred the position of the previous employer and the new employer is as follows:

The new employer takes over the contracts of employment of all employees who were employed in the undertaking immediately before the transfer, or who would have been so employed if they had not been unfairly dismissed for a reason connected with the transfer. An employer cannot just pick and choose which employees to take on.
The new employer takes over all rights and obligations arising from those contracts of employment, except criminal liabilities and rights and obligations relating to provisions about benefits for old age, invalidity or survivors in employees’ occupational pension schemes.
The new employer takes over any collective agreements made on behalf of the employees and in force immediately before the transfer
Neither the new employer nor the previous one may fairly dismiss an employee because of the transfer or a reason connected with it, unless the reason for the dismissal is an economic, technical or organisational reason entailing changes in the workforce. If there is no such reason, the dismissal will be unfair. If there is such a reason, and it is the cause or main cause of the dismissal, the dismissal will be fair provided an employment tribunal decides that the employer acted reasonably in the circumstances in treating that reason as sufficient to justify dismissal. If, in this case, there is a redundancy situation, the usual redundancy procedures will apply.
The new employer may not unless the contract of employment so provides unilaterally worsen the terms and conditions of employment of any transferred employee.
The previous and new employers must inform and consult representatives of the employees.

Employees’ position in a transfer
When an undertaking is transferred the position of the employees of the previous or new employers is as follows:
An employee claiming to have been unfairly dismissed because of a transfer has the right to complain to an employment tribunal.
Transferred employees who find that there has been a fundamental change for the worse in their terms and conditions of employment as a result of the transfer generally have the right to terminate their contract and claim unfair dismissal before an employment tribunal, on the grounds that actions of the employer have forced them to resign. Employees may not make this type of claim solely on the grounds that the identity of their employer has changed unless the circumstances of an individual case change and that change is significant and to the employee’s detriment.

In both the above cases dismissal because of a relevant transfer will be unfair unless an employment tribunal decides that an economic, technical or organisational reason entailing changes in the workforce was the main cause of the dismissal and that the employer acted reasonably in the circumstances in treating that reason as sufficient to justify dismissal. Even if the dismissal is considered fair, employees may still be entitled to a redundancy payment.

Employees employed in the undertaking immediately before the transfer (or who would have been so employed had they not been unfairly dismissed) for a reason connected with the transfer automatically become employees of the new employer, unless they inform either the new or the previous employer that they object to being transferred. In this case the contract of employment with the previous employer is terminated by the transfer of undertaking but the employee is not dismissed. The previous employer may re-engage the employee.

An employee’s period of continuous employment is not broken by a transfer, and, for the purposes of calculating entitlement to statutory employment rights, the date on which the period of continuous employment started is the date on which the employee started work with the old employer. This should be stated in the employee’s written statement of terms and conditions; if it is not, or if there is a dispute over the date on which the period of continuous employment started, the matter can be referred to an employment tribunal

Transferred employees retain all the rights and obligations existing under their contracts of employment with the previous employer and these are transferred to the new employer, with the exception that the previous employer’s rights and obligations relating to benefits for old age, invalidity or survivors under any employees’ occupational pension schemes are not transferred. If the new employer does not provide comparable overall terms and conditions, including pension arrangements, an employee may have a claim for unfair dismissal.

Occupational pension rights earned up to the time of the transfer are protected by social security legislation and pension trust arrangements.

Redundancy
Dismissed employees may be entitled to redundancy payments. Employers must also ensure that the required period for consultation with employees’ representatives is allowed. Entitlement to redundancy payments will not be affected by the failure of any claim which an employee may make for unfair dismissal compensation.

Where there are redundancies and it is unclear whether the Regulations apply, it will also be unclear whether the previous or the new employer is responsible for making redundancy payments. In such cases employees should consider whether to make any claims against both employers.

Trade union recognition
If the transferred undertaking maintains an identity distinct from the remainder of the new employer’s business, the new employer will be considered to recognise an independent trade union, in respect of employees transferred, to the same extent that it was recognised by the previous employer. If the undertaking does not keep its separate identity, the previous trade union recognition lapses, and it will then be up to the union and the employer to renegotiate recognition.

Rep Action List
1. Applying the TUPE legislation is a very complicated exercise; any rep who becomes aware of a proposed transfer, should in the first instance contact their Negotiations Officer for advice on whether there are potential TUPE implications.

2. It is important to remember that consultation taken under TUPE is "undertaken with a view to seeking agreement". Agreement means consent from both parties and not one side unilaterally imposing its view.

3. Members should be aware that successfully claiming constructive dismissal is a very substantial legal hurdle because the scope of a justifiable "economic, technical or organisational reason" is potentially very wide.

The briefs in this section provide guidance and some basic details of employment rights. They do not attempt to be comprehensive, and should not be taken as an authoritative statement of the law.

Zorroboy

Re: CWU Telewest Section Meeting
 

Hi folks

Sorry for taking so long to reply on this thread, I have been emailing/speaking to a few CWU people and wanted to hear back from them before posting a follow-up.

Nice one Womble :tu:

Make sure the word gets around and amongst your co-workers!

Also do you have anyone 'official' from the CWU to attend the meeting?

Senior organisers for the CWU are always happy to meet with people who are interested in signing up new members in the workplace. This can lead to full union recognition rights if enough join.

I have just gotten off from a long phonecall with Doug Rafferty (drafferty@cwu.org). He is a CWU Organiser, responsible for NTL. He has asked me to let you all know that he is more than happy to organise a meeting with anyone (NTL-based) who wants one. He's based in Scotland but wherever in the UK you are, if you are genuinely interested in recruiting members in your workplace and build up a union presence there, he'll be there! (Thanks, Doug, that's some mileage!!)

If anyone reading would like a meeting with Doug or his fellow counterpart for Telewest, to discuss how to establish a union at your place of work, discussing organising strategies, and 'get informed' on unions or employment law, please email drafferty@cwu.org or call his mobile on 0771 450 4426. Alternatively you can PM me your details and I be happy to pass your details along to him.

Unfortunately without union recognition, at a big company like NTL, the workers views counts for about as much as an online petition. You might get some warm words of comfort, but if you want respect and a real say, a union's the only way to go!

Edit: Also, many thanks to zorroboy, great first post!! Lots of useful info there. TUPE is a horrendously complicated subject. The main thing seems to be that just because your company tells you what your rights are, doesn't mean they are correct. Oftentimes companies get it wrong themselves. This is one of those things that union membership can be extremely useful for as the CWU are able to seek legal advise, so if you feel wronged, you can consult them, and if your rights have been violated, they can either put things right, or help you take the company to an employment tribunal--and pay the associated costs on your behalf.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

There are currently 97 Switch engineers within ntl:Telewest. There are 75 Switch engineer jobs up for grabs - that figure includes seniors / AOMs (or whatever they're called now ! )

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

keeping this thead alive does anyone have any thing to report about the meeting that took place in Birmingham 28-6-06 regards tupe of inhouse.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

I heard a rumour today that the Install tech's in the North West have been told they are now working for kellys. Will make some calls and check.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

from what i have heard the install techs in the north east are going to map i hope this isnt true as ive heard kellys are much better to work for, are kellys behind bt openreach?

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

as far as I am aware, BT openreach currently employ their own techs...

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Depends which part of Kellys you work for. I work for Kellys Business and at the moment i am fitting routers in the LLU dslams for Tiscalie and Opal on behalf of NTL . :Yikes:

I enjoy my job and i have no problems with Kellys. I cannot speak for other departments.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

at the meeting in birmingham the midlands techs were told that they were going to avonline as of 1st september, i cant put into words of any decency how i feel about this, many telewest techs have come from contractors and the idea of going back is sickening, apparently management at this meeting were suprised at the angry reaction from the reps of managers and install techs as they thought we would welcome the move no word yet on how long tupe will last for maybe only 3 months nice xmas present eh!

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

Well this could be true as ntl management work on the lines of if its not on paper its not true eg "they think workers are really happy" then when they get lynched at the first meeting they have the balls of turning up to they are shocked..........bet that's the last one they go to as well.

Re: In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?
 

I was told that a senior manager said that if u know how to save me 6 million pound then they will consider not tupeing. Heres a wild and crazy idea (ntl has year on year reduced field in house numbers, but the managers seem to remain in place). Reduce the number of managers and charge an installation fee. the money saved from the managers high wages and the money from installation fees should just about cover it, or does that sound too much like common sense for them.;)