Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

Read This:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/media/news/2006/04/nr_20060419

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

I complained about this years ago to ofcom and they came back to me that there was nothing wrong.

What brought it to light to me was ntl because at the time they regarded all 0870 as premium numbers, therefore if you had a premium rate bar oops theres goes the suposed national rate numbers too, which actually are not national rate but a special rate. I guess they must have thought again, but only after millions have been made from them. We should get a rebate for the rip off as the telco's were just as much in on this.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

It's long overdue, pity we have to wait another 18 months. They should also tackle the 0845 nos, but the've decided not to. These so called national rate and local rate numbers are no longer charged at those rates.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

Telecoms companies are forever looking for new ways to con people and rip people off. The entire market needs a *serious* shake up, but OFCOM are in their pocket and wouldn't say boo to a goose. A totally ineffective regulator, beaten for ineffectiveness only by the energy regulator.

My proposals, just from the top of my head:

0870 and 0845 to be just like 01XXX and 02XXX numbers, and included in those call plans like Option 2 and Option 3.

Premium rate numbers (09XXX) to be BLOCKED BY DEFAULT on ALL phone lines unless instructed otherwise by the account holder. Failure to do this is sanctioning the blatant profiteering from scams.

"Hidden" charges like connection fees etc outlawed. The price you see should be the price you pay.

Transfer of supplier procedures tightened up. There is still a *massive* amount of mis-selling, and the regulator doesn't seem to care one jot.

An end to constant pestering of customers to change supplier by telephone and on the doorstep. Or at the very least, a change to the procedure so that rather than instigating the transfer over the phone, paperwork should be sent which the customer must sign and return to start the transfer.

The above is just for starters and would help remove the stench of corruption from the industry.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

I would also add blanket ban on advertising unlimited with a disclaimer, you either advertise it and allow it to be used to its potential or advertise limited services, this is occuring all over the telecoms industry from phone to broadband.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

Agreed...

"Unlimited free calls" is often advertised, it is portrayed as 'all your calls will be free' by salesmen, when it fact it's only local and national calls up to 60 or 90 minutes.

I come across *so* many customers who thought 0870 and 0845 was included. Less commonly but still often, you get people who thought mobiles were included. Not because they are stupid, but because that's the *impression* given by the advertising and the sales pitch.

It has GOT to stop. It is a very serious problem, far more serious than many people realise.

I never thought I'd say this, but at the moment the best company to be with for your phone line is....BT! They are not the cheapest provider, however the savings that can be made, for most people, amount to no more than a pound or two at most.

Try talking your BT line to one of the third party providers using Wholesale Line Rental (not ntl, that's different, unless it's ntl Freedom) and then have it go wrong. Try reporting the fault and watch the farce. They don't want to know, and neither do Openreach (BT Wholesale who have to fix the fault), you can be left with no line for weeks and you will get NOTHING in compensation.

You will be generally ok with BT.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

its not only that I noticed at the bottom on the ntl rolling advert that it says "we reserve the right to withdraw the talk plan at anytime, or where usage is not in keeping with that reasonably expected of a residental customer". So like broadband if you use it 24 hours a day they probably take it of you and it isnt truly unlimited.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

http://saynoto0870.com/

Don't know where you are with this thread but you can visit http://saynoto0870.com/ and get alternative numbers to 0870 etc that give you local rates.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

Some of the numbers on that site are blatantly wrong though.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

All the ones that I've used have been fine!!! there may be some wrong but what about the ones that are right? Bit negative eh?

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

No, not negative at all if he's talking from experience. In any case it's supposed to be a help site and if the help offered is incorrect then it's justified to point it out.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

Its not that they are wrong, most often they are just out of date. Look at it like this the Geographical number is an IP and the 08xx numbers are domain names. Both are easy to change and often do. Shame but theres no way the site could ever be 100% correct and as more companies change thier numbers its likely to get worse.

What you should do is demand the companies geographical number from the company, use the reason I call from my mobile and the geographical number is included in the plan. If they arent prepared to give it they are more interested in phone profits than customers.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

Often companies give out their geographical number if you need to phone from abroad (like credit cards) in the form +44 1702 123456. Then you can just replace the +44 with 0 and get the calls at inclusive rates.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

That may well be true, but I'd say most CC staff don't know of, or don't have access to a list of the geographical numbers - or at least equivalents to the correct line.

The whole idea of saynoto0870 is good, but as with any directory or resource that relies on user submissions some incorrect ones will sneak in.

For instance, I had a look at the DSG ones. Some of the numbers there are NOT customer facing or even correct, I can pretty much say that using those numbers will not get the result you need.

For our call centres it's likely the IVR will redirect to geographicals, well, pretty much cast iron since all 0870s/0845s/0800s etc are just redirectors anyway - but we don't know them, the IVR probably redirects to literally tens of them, and then straight into the queue anyway if there is one. And surely that defeats the point of the menu - to get you through easily to someone who can deal with your query. If you have to try tens and tens of geographical numbers then get told it's the wrong one, and keep trying - you will get ****ed off, and also run up a phone bill that you probably would have saved anyway.

And the whole point of the numbers is that they allow everyone in the country to pay the same. If our call centre used the 0115 numbers it would be cheap for local people to call, people in the Midlands, but for people in the south west or in the North of Scotland it would be expensive - so everyone pays the same. The fact that the 0870s etc are not included in talk plans is more the fault of the customers not checking the deals properly or the phone providers for misleading them, or not including them in the package to begin with. Plus especially for places with so many options the list of numbers would mean customers would need to be provided with a list the size of yellow pages to then find the right one... difficult. We also do not have anything other than internal extensions because otherwise, that would mean way way too many numbers to use especially bearing in mind the number of staff!

Wrong because they just don't serve the intended purpose, or wrong because it's old... the fact a number is listed means little and has no indication of its real purpose.
Imagine if your business number was posted on there and you were flooded with customers wanting something you were unable to offer on a number they shouldn't have...

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

Wrong and its not often I say it so bluntly. 0870 is allways dearer than any uk geographical number from any uk location. Has been for a long time. 0870 is profit for both the telco's and the company with the 0870. You are correct on one point, everyone pays the same, which is well over the odds. When 0870 first came out it was the equivalent of the geographic national rate, the same with 0845 and local rate. The problem is 0870 numbers has not reduced in accordance with regular national rate, therefore expect customers to be peeved and expect websites to get set up with databases of numbers, also expect ofcom to be lobied till change happens.

0870 is no longer what it advertises to be "national rate" and that is the be all and end all of the number. It is now a money spinner with busted robots and endless loops or huge ques. As it is not a national rate number anymore but a special rate this is also the reason why virtually all telco plans do not include them. The customers have been forced into taking the action, so I should say, ye reap what ye sow, and a scam will allways bite you in the ass, one way or another.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

Right... well that is because the call plans have changed, and they only include the geographic numbers which now cost a variety of things depending on, for example, mobile/landline, call plan, provider, tariff, all manner of things. So - the essence is, that first of all, what should "national rate" be defined as, since the actual rate is so variable? Secondly, against which how should 0870/0845 numbers be measured? Thirdly, the problem is not that the 0870 call charges have changed but that the geographical numbers have become more appealing even for the customers in distant areas, and have been doubly discriminated against by the telco companies by not being included in the plans and also not having the call charges reduced in line with the other lines. Is this entirely fair and is it the fault of the 0870 numbers?

As for the 0870 numbers making profit from the calls then that is not true - and even if it did, a call at 6p (ish) per minute, lasting a couple of minutes to navigate a simple menu at most, and a further 2 or so in a queue, plus a call probably lasting about 10 mins (a call duration which is our target length, some go more, some go less) which will give a call duration of about 14 mins - 84p. Even if you increase the cost to 10p/m then that's only 1.40. Taking about 40-50 calls a day for which you will get paid quite a bit, then factoring in performance related bonuses, etc etc, that will only be £63 not factoring in things like breaks, idle time, etc. I'd assume it costs the company more than that to keep me there for the day. And that's assuming that ALL the money from the call charges goes on paying the agents which also isn't true- upkeep of facilities, infrastructure, paying other staff like managers, technical coaches, who don't take calls (and earn more), rental of TWO phone lines (the 0870s, and the geographics) - in fact, I'd not think the company "make money" from having 0870 lines rather than normal lines. Premium lines maybe you have a point, but 0870s probably not. Especially not when skilled staff man the lines.

Also you seem to think 0870s are a scam just because they are not included in talk plans. Where does that leave mobile numbers and 0800s (supposedly free), I have to pay 35p a minute to call 0800s in normal daytime and that's 35p going somewhere. But where? Considering more people are likely to make calls using a mobile than a land line then that is unfair. Is it a scam? No - because you know what number you're dialling and what the cost is. If you don't you either deserve to lose out for ignorance, or shouldn't moan about the charges.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

At the time of 0845 and 0870 number introduction they were advertised as a local and national non geographical equivalent rate numbers, and were charged by BT at the geographical rates. This is clearly now not the case desoite it being how they are advertised generally by the companies using them. So to look at the prices now in exactly the same way as when they were introduced:

Current rates: daytime inc vat

BT national daytime 3p per minute
NTL national daytime 3p
BT national non geographic (0870) 7.51 for most 4.95p per minute for others
NTL national non geographic (0870) 8.10p per minute

BT local 3p
NTL local 3p
BT non geographic local (0845) 3p
NTL non geographic local (0845) 4.45p per minute

The companies using 0845 and 0870 numbers get a share of the difference between the geographic and non geographic. Its not rocket sciendce to see who is doing the scamming and who is being scammed. They are no longer local and national rate numbers. Therefore they probably breech UK trading laws aswell. The funny thing is pretty much anyone can have one even you or me and from the rigght place completely free depending on what 08XX-XX you would like

A simple menu perhaps sometimes, others its an endless loop getting nowhere, or broken systems ending in disconnections.
2 minute ques, It does happen but it also happens often that people can wait for 30 minutes or even an hour in a que

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

You still haven't addressed the point though.

As for half hour queues I'd contest that - at our place, queues of even 80-90 are never more than max wait 10-12 mins. And the queues are bad for us as well, as we only get 20 seconds between one call ending and another one automatically dropping - without dropping into a withdrawal which affects our performance etc etc.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

Seems your failing to grasp a very simple point, forget mobile plans they have allways had their own rules. and tarrifs, and even landline plans as they were barely in existence at conception of 0870/0845 I dont think BT had any, and cable at the time was free local cable to cable only phonecalls.

The comparison in my post above is a direct comparison to how they were introduced and how they are advertised against what is fact today and it is now a false advertisment to say 0845/0870 are local and national rate calls. They are not.

The fact is today according to current geographic regular numbers no distinction in price, so the same should have been applied to non geographic 0870/0845. They should be 3p per minute daytime. And that is the exact reason why customers are complaining, have the right to complain, and the right to develop a web database to counter the scam seeing as ofcom are finding it hard to get of their spotty behinds and do something for the consumers, of which they are being paid hansomely to do by, yep the consumer.

There is no if buts.

The real truth is companies were convinced to undertake 08 numbers becasue the telcos were well aware the UK was going to have to yankee style and have talk this talk that for domestic lines at least, they got themselves a nice bonus from getting firms to go 08 and the firms are not complaining either becasue they get paid to answer the phone or rather everytime one of their machines accepts a call.

Just to show how easy it is for 087 to screw lets say the firm only gets 1p per minute from the call.

50 people in a que, 5 minutes wait (many will laugh at that). Not bad 30£ an hour for a robotic line, that may get a real person sometime (I am sure 0870 is more than a penny to the company and its without doubt more if the call was actually from someone local). Now add several studid machines with loops here, options you dont need discopnnected calls, extended waits, pass on to another section, and another que. Its actually an incentive for some companies to have bigger ques.

How big is your call center to get up to 80/90 in the que ?

If one 0870 call system has 100,000 calls a day @ 1p per minute for the company with only an average wait of 2 minutes per caller thats 2 grand in the pocket each day. I am sure even you can see how the longer the wait the quicker that totals up.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

I pretty much agree with everything you've said, except the above - and becuase I'm a pedant I can tell you that on my inclusive calls from o2, 0845 and 0870 are included in the minutes - so I always use my mobile to call them.

But I take on board everything else you've said and agree!

I'm gald that OFCOM have finally got off their backsides on this issue - quite simply lazy companies were profiteering from having their own customers call them, which I find disgraceful and there is evidence to support the fact that calls have not been answered as quiquckly as they could be on the basis that each customer is racking up a contribution to the call centre while they wait.

However there is another side to the story too....I use a remote fax service which allocated me a nice easy to remember number for free, people send me faxes and I receive them via email. This is a free service, on the basis that the caller is going to spend 10p or so sending me a fax.

I wonder if this will continue to be free once these changes come into effect.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

Would you mind informing me of the plan you are on ?and to save energy how much is the fees for 0870 and 0845 beyond your plans minutes ? If its over 3p per minute then its not cheaper.

To be fair you have to forget plans, in the most part these numbers are not included, and I find it very hard to believe any plan out there today is cheaper when you have used all the included minutes away. The very reason many plans do not include these numbers is because they are over and above todays normal local and national charges out of plan.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

It's always been that way irrespective of which plan I'm on - but right now I'm on o2 200 - 30 quid a month.

I've no idea how much it is beyond included mins, as I try to make sure I'd don't stray too far beyond the 200 - also with that plan you can carry mins across for a few months if you don't use them. Works for me.

I know that including 0870 numbers is very uncommon, AFAIK o2 is the only one to do it.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

Would that be 200 minutes for £30 a month ? If so thats daylight robery

I have 500 minutes a month + 100 texts anytime any network for £10 just not 0870/0845

200 minutes for £30 would = 15p a minute ? seems to me to be quite a bit more than 3p a minute you just dont think about it because its included in your plan. :)

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

The company would require the same staff and overheads whether the number was normal geographic or 0870. So having a 0870 number is cheaper for them as they get a cut of the cost, however small that may be.

Customers resent having to pay over the odds for calls especially when held in long queues. Phoning a call centre to report a fault which is not of their making and having to pay high prices for that call must lead to ill feeling from the moment the call is eventually answered by an agent. Ending up with an agent that has a poor understanding of English, poor communication skills or who insists on taking you through a script that obviously is the wrong approach to solving the customers problem is only going to alienate the customer further. The result can be increased customer churn and plenty of bad feedback to potential customers.

The bean counters are probably rubbing their hands in glee thinking of the contribution to profits being made by using 0870 numbers. They probably forget that the odd pound or two that they may make could lose them a customer for life who may have all three services with the top package in each.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

If you were a bean counter you wouldnt care about tomorrow. Theres another 60 million people to scam away at and theres only so many places you can go to in terms of competition, if most are all doing the same thing then the bean counters have no worries at all. Its just a shame so many staff beleive the propoganda impressed into them by there employers.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

got my written reply of ASA regarding unlimited. They more or less said consumer complaints arent taken seriously and can only act if competitors make a justified claim.

No wonder the regulation in this country is bad it only listens to competitors and not consumers. I cant see a competitor making a complaint since they all playing the same game, rip the customer off.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

Well - then they could always hold, or hang up and call back when it's quieter- especially if the call centre has long opening hours or even 24/7? Obviously for 9-5 CCs this is more of an issue.

Well how else is the company going to find out the product is at fault?

Not guilty on those three. Although I do have things to check whenever an issue is reported, it is not a script, it's just there to make sure that the problem is effectively diagnosed, and that nothing obvious has been missed that could effect a different resolution.

And how bad is a script/diag checklists anyway? The issue is not adapting to the aptitude/ability of the customer and the intricate details of the problem. A script can be disguised.

Scripts aren't all bad though I don't use them and we don't have them - if it means everything is checked correctly the script may even resolve the problem, if not, if someone needs to come out then they know what has already been done.

Err OK.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

I think we're getting a bit O/T here - but that 30 quid includes line rental, data, free voice mail 100 texts a month, free internation service (lower cost to and from internation locations).

I really don't have the time to be chasing the best deal all the time, for the sake of 20 quid a month it's really not worth it and I really can't be doing with changing networks every year to get the slightly better deals.

Whether or not it's daylight robbery doesn't really matter to me, I'm reasonably happy with the service, I've had the contract for years, it includes calls to non-geo numbers and above all it's not on Three!

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

Which is why I said plans are irrelevant, and you should measure from the fees outside of it. Even inside I doubt you could make any mobile plan work out cheaper than the 3p a minute it should be maximum to an 0870/0845 number. O2 can include them as IIRC O2 was cellnet and even as O2 it was a BT company for sometime till recently, which I would think have the majority or perhaps even all the 08's in their pocket anyway, unless that takeover from a german telco firm didnt happen. If it did watch out for the 08's being dropped from the plan in the future.

Cellnet would be the last mobile firm I would turn to, they have allready tested my patience in court once a long time ago (although I only represented my self in writing it was more hassle than I desired at the time), only to run away like the frightened dogs they became.

A landline plan may make it somewhat better than a mobile plan in a pro rata manner but they are not going to have those when they can screw the country's population for millions.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

What has any of this got to do with the topic? I only mentioned it as an aside!

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

Because justifying a point with misleading information is not right. The O2 plan may suit you and what you desire from your mobile but not everyone wants a plan even let alone an O2 plan or even a mobile, and it still doesnt actually reduce the fees incurred from 0870's.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

I find companies (and government departments) using revenue generating numbers for customer care, including tec support, as repugnant as those awful conning phone-in quiz shows.

Re: Ofcom is killing off 0870 Scams
 

I suggest you read my post again, as you clearly haven't done so. You were ranting about no-one offering inclusive minutes to non-geo numbers, I said that o2 does. End of. How is this misleading?