Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

OK as suggested I repeat here the stage we had reached over at .com before being so rudely interupted.

Special thanks to Pem btw as it was him that was able to dig out this copy.

***************

OK getting back on topic.

What we have so far is the concept of creating a panel which would comprise representation from NTL (in the form of an appropriate manager), representation from the Admin Team (to ensure any issues concerning the forum are included in a workable way) and finally representation from the membership of the forum in the form of a nominated/elected Customer Rep(s).

I would envisage this tripartite meeting being held about once per quarter, but possibly more frequently should this prove to be an even better success than I think it will be.

Selection of the Customer representation would be based on the specific topics due for discussion as it makes sense to have people with both an interest in the issues and also an ability to articulate the collective consensus on those issues.

Therefore this would not be a permanent role but would pass to whichever member(s) seemed most appropriate at the time given the issues to be discussed.

I would add an extra criteria for this customer/user rep is that they must be willing and able to articulate where NTL are getting things right just as well as when they are not.

What we are looking for is supporting good practice and eliminating the bad just as much as discussing problem/issues with the products and services themselves.

The purpose of the meetings would therefore be to look for constructive ideas to resolve existing problems/issues not just with NTL's products and services but also the relationship it has with customers by allowing a positive dialogue to take place providing feedback both ways.

To ensure that the issues discussed and views expressed are truly representative of the wider customer base I would also propose that we make us of a monthly newsletter sent to the forum membership via the existing notification system. This could invite contributions and provide a channel for feedback to the wider forum membership as well.

This last proposal, if nothing else, would generate more active interest in the forum as members see we are actively involved in working in partnership with NTL to address outstanding issues. The newsletter will also provide a vehicle for promoting the day to day successes of the forum and also highlight the times NTL get things right.

So come on everyone what do think of the general idea of trying to build on the undoubted existing strengths of the forum and helping it thrive and prosper in the future?

***************

This is a straight repeat of the post from .com which was followed by a series of posts clarifying a few details but all generally not just accepting the basic concept but actually welcoming it.

I appreciate it may need refinement now to fit the new location but the key principles will still be valid.

I do know given today's fiasco the odds on acceptance to the idea by NTL is problematic but maybe just maybe they could find this a suitable way of saying sorry for that.

Anyway over to you guys n gals what do you think?

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

well, just as this idea just came to fuition and everyone started to get along and talk constructively about it, the forum was shut down.

Therefore I conclude that closing down the forum was a tactic to burn down this concept/idea and not just the idea but the discussion and it was also a cowards tactic to promote hostility towards discussions like this when the site re-opens.

clearly Ashley feared this idea as there's no easy way to reject it and Ashley was afraid of facing up to a membership who voted for it and then asked it to be implemented.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Think you might not be that far off the truth on that one

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

sadly the thread isnt here for us to reference but one point I made this morning was that in no way could anyones idea/concept be imposed.

it would have to be first voted on with a simple yes/no and if a yes vote is successful then nominations and a poll on who would be the membership representative.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

How can you know that?

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

the reasons given for the shut down didnt add up.

http://forum.nthellworld.co.uk/showp...&postcount=141

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Actually I agree and think the reverse may well have been true in this specific case as it provided a "way out" of a lot of the earlier mistakes by NTL. More likely to be incredibly bad timing I think.

My experience of ashG was that he was at least always prepared to listen to an idea as long as it was both reasonable and reasonably put.

I suspect the problem was what happened to it after it after he passed it "upstairs".

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Why would NTL want to let their customers have any say in what happens within the company?
why would NTL want to give the customers anything, they(NTL) appear to be very happy with things the way they are. and lastly if they wanted to improve anything they could very easily, there is no secret about what is wrong with NTL the whole world knows. the simple fact is NTL have no desire to change anything, their share holders are happy that's all that matters to them.

edit: it is a good idea but it would only work if NTL wanted it

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

yes I agree - that would be a good way to poll both interest in the idea, initially - and specifics as to 'whom', latterly.

- I can't help thinking that some of the aims of sociable's idea may be covered by the ntli.info project on here, specifically in terms of 'appropriate' representatives for particular areas? - but please don't take that as a negative comment, because I have to say, I was very impressed by the spirit expressed in the post(s).

The concept of an 'user representative' is a good one, imo - but I think 'there should be only one' - who should post the vote, btw & is "does the forum want a formal members representative y/n?" adequate - any other suggestions?

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Sadly I can see what you mean.

If I was running NTL I can't really see why I would keep nthw.com nor why I would want a group of people from here telling me how to run my show.

What is the benefit to me and my shareholders ?

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

What would benefit the shareholders more is happy customers that stay and take out more services as they are available. Instead they have un happy customers that will move on to oher services as tehy become available.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

In my past life, before retiring from Social work due to illhealth, I was in Sales and Marketing at a managerial level both in UK based companies and large International organisations.

Two seconds comparing the cost of gaining this kind of positive constructive feedback by any other means would show this not just extremely cost effective but worth its weight in gold in PR terms.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

looking at NTL's share price it would appear the share holders are happy with things the way they are as well.
I don't think anybody would argue with the point of happy customers make a better more sustainable business, but alas this is something that does not appear to be in NTL's business plan. Maybe a long term business plan is not what ntl want.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

The basic idea was first get the concept of a "user/customer panel" accepted.

Then canvass for topics for discussion.

Then when an "Agenda" was set choose who best could "voice" those issues at any "meeting" with NTL.

Each step requires the cooperation and input from the membership and each step would require ratification by simple majority vote to confirm any percieved consensus was agreed to by the majority.

This might at times mean that more than one rep was appropriate if two completly diverse issues needed raising and no one person was able to adequately argue the points on both.

My suggested first item on any initial agenda would be for instance, "How can we help you to help us and vice versa?" but looking at the agenda further than that until the basic principle of the "panel" is accepted will only muddy the issue.

The same goes for nominating reps untill the agenda is agreed.

Its a step by step approach building on broad support at each step of the way.

Ambitious I know but fully achievable if we all work together in a spirit of constructive cooperation.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Is it just me, or does all this seem to be getting a little out out hand? Yes, I agree with the sentiment, and the sense it would make to provide constructive feedback for the improvement of ntl's services, but;

- If ntl wanted to obtain such feedback, or wanted the involvement of it's customers it would have done so. I doubt that they will appreciate others trying to tell them how to run the show.

- As useful as the(se) forums are to those who need help, at the end of the day, they are just a couple of forums. They are not the gateway to a utopia, nor are they that important at the end of the day. I think people are getting a little too self important.

- Whilst the comments left on these boards may be from a representative sample of the population, the number of users, in comparison to ntl's subscriber base is a tiny proportion. It's also probably fair to say that the users of these forums (on the whole) probably do not represent the average ntl customer, but one which has had some kind of problem at some point, and therefore opinion is likely to be a little skewed.

Having said that, I'm just giving my opinion on the matter, I'm not one for telling others what to do, and if you all want to make the effort, then that's up to you.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

I think this may be doing NTL an injustice.

Had they had no interest at all in feedback and simply wanted to silence .com they could have done so far more cheaply and with far less problems and more importantly far earlier.

They actually have a very large investment in .com at many levels not least the cost of running the forum since buying it and funding its moderation since then.

The fact they stuck with it through many difficult and contentious times indicates to me at least a willingness to try and make it work.

Yes they often made mistakes and shooting themselves in the foot became a regular spectator sport at times but the basic idea of an NTL owned but user run forum was working well the majority of the time especially for those with specific problems the direct link to NTL could help resolve.

One final point just for clarification. This is not about me or any other individual seeking any part to play in this process other than as an ordinary member of the forum. In fact my disability may well preclude me from ever accepting any formal role in this or any other initiative. I just happen to think this is an idea that has merit and felt oblidged to put it forward for consideration.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

I suggest if this does get off the ground that it be stressed to ntl that one of the terms is that this site is NOT for sale to them, no they can't buy it if they agree to participate (as that didn't work last time), and they particpate on our terms as we are the customers.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

I think they already know that by now Keyser but yes in fact the "independance" of any customer panel is inherant in the basic concept. ie it can't just be an "In House" focus group.

Also follows a basic principle they forgot when purchasing .com in the first place. They may have brought the domain name but they could never buy the membership as we were never for sale either.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

You're right Sociable, but in my experience ntl will be very reluctant to get involved with something they don't control themselves. ntl PR would never allow it :rolleyes:

I'd be delighted to be proved wrong though.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

As I always say, the impossible we do today miracles take a little longer.

Patient but persistent pressure will wear them down eventually as even they know they need to find a way to change how people percieve them. If anything its the fact they can't control the PR aspects without some kind of initiative that involves direct input from the customers that may make this kind of idea appealing.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

I think the idea of having a customer panel is an excellent one. When I'm suspended on nthw.com for no particular good reason, the mods are reluctant to reason with me. They expect a PM with very little explanation, followed up by a quote from ToS to be sufficient for me. Due to their failure in their communications, I could see no reason why I should modify my behaviour.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Many thanks for that but with regards to the rest of the post can I repeat what I have said in the other thread as it applies equally to this one:


:ghugs:

Many Thanks

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Can i second that sociable.

For all those who just can't move on, get help if you must but do as the man says and LET IT GO.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

just a small point but this is .co.uk as you well know , maybe it is time to leave it until or if .com comes back on , then you can bitch at them as much as you want , in the meantime can you leave it out on here , t/y :)

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

I think you have the wrong end of the stick, what sociable is suggesting is not a panel between the users of this site and the mods (as in a way to solve disputes like the ones you seem to get into). It would be a panel between the ntl customers and ntl itself. a way of putting our views across to ntl en mass in a organised way. It has also been suggested that this customer panel is used to obtain data on the performance of ntl's network across the country. I feel that the biggest threat to ntl will be the data that this panel could acrue. Normal data that ntl collects is private and not available, the data collected by the panel would be available on-line so that all could see, including ntl's competitors.

Their competitors would be able to use this information to market rival services to customers of ntl more effectivly.

What it does need is the full support of both hell sites to be able to achieve this, 20 tracerts and pings is not enough whats required if possible is 500-1000 members regularly adding this data and then it will make a difference.

It could log email troubles, outages, pings, tracerts and network speed across all of ntls network.

Anyway thats my 2p
mark

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Bang on :)


Personally I dont think that particular suggestion was either practical or sensible and not just for the reasons you state.

What might be more usefull is tracking pattens of problems as an early warning system of more serious failures down the line perhaps. This might allow NTL to anticipate needs or diagnose faults by sometimes putting seemingly unrelated things together. To use NTL's own original view of NTHW being "A thermometer of how things are going" not just generally but for specifics too.

An example would be the number of times someone will say "It only happens when I do xyz" or something along those lines. It's often being able to link these often seemingly disconected symptoms to the problem that helps identify the specific fix that is needed. If nothing else many here have that knack of using this kind of lateral thinking that is all too rare in some large organisations.


I agree getting active participation from ALL related forums would be great. Maybe each forum nominating one rep each to form the "Panel"? Now that's a brave suggestion. LOL I must remeber to curb my belief in the possibility that people can actually get along even us and NTL. :)

As already stated above I think the detailed collection of stats itself is unworkable and potentially open to abuse so I doubt it would go down too well. But a more general tracking of groups of say slow connections or game pings in a specific area might perhaps help identify potential "Hot spots" earlier than NTL might be able to themselves.

Anyways thanks again for the support and perhaps my suggestion about making the panel represent most if not all forums would even get round some of the more general doubts some have about which specific forum the idea comes from.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Whilst I admire the sentiments and the idea of this I really think you are fighting a losing battle here although I would love to be proved wrong.

NTL got involved with the previous site and even went so far as buying it and still had their fingers burned and at the end even had the wool pulled over their eyes by the Mods/Admin running the place.

I would suggest they would be reluctant to get involved in any such venture again.

As for them ignoring their customers and the demand, in most cases they have and always will unless it be from a site where they have a controlling interest and we have been assured this site is not for sale so I canââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t see this happening.

Like to see the idea take off but unless it is on their terms I really donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t see how this will happen.

:)

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

NTL have proven on many occasions that it matters not one iota what their customers think - NTL will make decisions based on what their directors and their focus groups think. Irregardless of internet forums where several hundred (possibly over a thousand) members will give their views on a particular subject.

I'd give such a Customer panel my backing but I have this niggling feeling in the back of my mind it's the old 'chocolate teapot' situation :(

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

All ntl customers would support the idea-and-dream of being able to give effective input to ntl for improvement.

The reality is though, that there really needs to be a somersault in the ntl mind-set for that to come about though. Frank himself, privy to meetings within ntl, and trying to get change, found that he was up against a brick wall. Quote by Frank - I told them till I was blue in the face end quote.

So even if, in the end you do manage to get meetings with ntl, would ntl listen with any intention of taking notice of the suggestions and of making any changes. I don't think so, not with ntl's mind already set not to make changes. I believe that 'Anticap' also found this was the case when he had meetings with ntl.

To date, and recently with the .com closure, ntl have shown no inclination to take any notice of any customers' inputs, or of anyone who has the customers' interests at heart, even when it has been pointed out to ntl, that ntl themselves will benefit from the suggestions put forward. NTL are set on going the way that they want to, and that's it, the ntl mind-set.

So what would make ntl start to take notice. Well, pre buyout of .com by ntl, it was the effective and persistent public critical comments that made ntl take notice. It has been found that asking ntl reasonably to listen and to make changes, does not work, they are not that kind of reasonably company. It is best to ask from a position of some strength, in some way.

The strength of bad publicity is one way that it could be done to give us a stronger hand. Notice how bad companies on 'Watchdog' pay-up in the end, it's cheaper for them to do that, than to have the cost of the bad publicity.

That's why I think that building a large widespread continuous survey of ntl's services showing all their defects, will give us the strength of the bad publicity that we can bring to bear on ntl. Also, incidentally, the survey will be of interest to customers and potential customers.

The survey should be publicised as much as possible, and I feel sure that there will also be media interest in what we are doing, and also an interest in the survey results. There are, no doubt, other similar ways to get ntl's attention, and then if a meeting is obtained, it will be a more effective meeting.

It is the way to get more clout and have more customer power if there is going to be the slightest chance of getting ntl's attention.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

I agree 100% with all of that. Good post.

I would like to give ntl the benefit of the doubt in a way though, even after all that has happened. I have to stress the point that it really does depend who any customer panel would be dealing with - not everyone at ntl is set in that stupid mindset. That is an important point to note. However! Finding one of these people, and ntl allowing them to interact with us with the authority to action changes is a completely different ball game...

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Well there is some precedent for ntl talking to a user group of kinds and that was with AntiCap. They've shown they can do it and I'd very much like to see them do it again. The whole idea has my full support.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Thank you.

I believe there was a manager (forgot his name) of some region, who when a complaint was brought to his attention via .com, he said that he would see to it that the particular type of complaint would not happen again, and also offered to be a helpful contact of .com.

So I agree that not everyone at ntl is in the fixed mindset, there are also a few good ones, with reason.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Having looked thru these posts, I believe there is absolutely nothing to be lost by giving this a go, especially if there are people willing to give it a shot from this side. Rodd's post swung it for me.

At the very worst, this would make ntl think again, before adding to the sorry list of PR disasters. At best, we can achieve a dialogue, even if only for a few months, which has to be worth it

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

At last we agree :luv:

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Well I took a couple of weeks away from these forums and what happened? Can't remember where I put the .com forum or has someone stolen it, lol? Got some reading to do to catch up with recent events and get to grips with the current situation.

I have not had much time to take in what's been going on, but one suggestion made in here for a newsletter to be sent to members on a regular basis sounds an excellent idea. These forums have a hard core of users who are nearly always here with others drifting in and out but not regular users. A monthly newsletter sent by e-mail to all registered forum members sounds a great idea to keep peoples interest in the site going and to pass important information onto customers. Maybe a thread should be started to discuss ideas for inclusion in such a newletter.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Huh? Don't remember having any specific conversation, let alone agreement/disagreement with you?

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

This could be a very good way to help both company and customers. In the end that is all the the customers want. The service to work properly with quality help there when needed. The company benfirts from happy customers who are willing to recomend the company to others...

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

yes, but - how do we organise all that feedback - is anyone clever enough to design a form we can fill in - e.g. slow browsing, no email, in so & so area - and provide the organised info graphically - if so I'm all for it.:)

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

I can have a try over this week.while I am off sick.

Any suggestions would be gratefully worked on...

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

whilst I think this is an excellent idea, like other have said ntl would never agree to this it would mean them ending up having to fix the problems with their service and that costs money they don't want to spend.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

OK someone mentioned a survey !

I'll start with:-

BB Internet:

• email !
• DNS issues (area specific ??)

Digi TV:

• EPG !

General:

• Billing (area specific ??)

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

BB Service

major DNS problems
email problems

TV

2 tier service depending on where you live potluck
unluckly ppl stuck with analogue
digital service below rival companies standards

General

promotional offers seem to be regional making it potluck depending on where you live.
lack of communication with customers.
unable to change package on a sunday.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Just some thoughts on a possibly way forward.

A simple start would be in having a log of certain types of bad service. Perhaps starting with a log of each of two easily identified bad services, appointments not being kept by ntl, and of ntl not ringing back, and perhaps also a log of excessive phone holds of 1/2 hour plus.

There would be no lengthy off-putting survey forms to fill in. It is simple, and would take no effort to report a case or to run, and simple enough that even those members, who at present make few posts, would likely join in and make a valuable input. Only the minimum of details is really needed, perhaps as little as just a tick, date and time.

We can extend logs to other aspects of service as we figure out how best to do each part, but keeping it very simple and effortless. Some parts of service may be more difficult to do, due to there being the occasional temporary interruption in service (we are aware of the problem, etc.). I think we should be looking for excessive interruptions or too many of them, too often, or way below par performance too often (however we are going to measure that).

In the end we would end up with a broad picture of the service over a period, and would be able to say that there were ### cases reported last month/week. It would be a bit more ammunition for us.

Other hell sites might even take up the 'bad logs' idea, adding weight to our figures. All sites, in effect, would then be acting in unison, which is no bad thing and gives a stronger widespread message, a message that is more difficult for ntl to ignore. All the figures could even be totalled and quoted. They might even be quoted elsewhere, in the media perhaps.

Someone might ask, why not also have the good service results. Well, I don't think that it would be very useful to know that ntl did keep the appointment, or actually did ring back. That is what they are supposed to do. It's rather like the UK's crime figures, only the crimes that are reported, get quoted, not the number of law-abiding people doing, as they should.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Great post Rodd.

I was just thinking about this thread but you beat me to it. LOL

I suspect most are in the holiday mood now so I think we are more likely to get more activity in the thread once the dust has settled but I will be doing some thinking about how to put the good ideas so far into shape so we can sort out how to approach NTL with a request for a head to head meeting to see if a "Customer Panel" is workable early in the new year.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Thanks Sociable :)

Back in festive mode now.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

do other companies have customer panels?

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Many do and they don't begrudge the investment because of the the benefits such close interactive links with the customers can bring.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

nuff said then really - if ntl wants to interact with their customers and please them then obviously this is the way forward

obviously they aren't going to be able to please everyone - but it would it would a good start

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

I've seen announcements before Christmas on a couple of other forums from NTL product development staff that they are setting up trials and face to face user forums.

One site was ntlhell the other was a help site.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Interesting how the offer was not extended to *this* help site :D

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

I dont think ive seen Peter post on this site at all actually...... :eek: :confused:

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Whose Peter? :shrug:

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Peter M - I think he is the head of Product Development and posts on the ntlhell.co.uk site. I saw this on that site and registered my interest.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Hmmm ntl now decide to get involved with user
forums except this one, politics.......its the reason why ntl is in a sour
state by putting politics first before its customers,development
my behind,but we already know what happens when ntl gets involved
with forums don't we??? pah.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

True LOL

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

that's one perspective. there are others.

one alternative perspective is NTL tried to work with the people running this site, found it impossible to do so over a considerable period of time and thus are now trying to work with different connected customers, having failed to get a satisfactory working relationship established with those running this site.

Personally I think that is better than not trying to work with any connected customers at all, which given the history of the first attempt with .com and those that ran it, would have been imo a very natural, if regretable, reaction on their part.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

I have one thing to say to that erolz:- That alternative perspective is a load of crap. :)

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Sorry Erol that is B/S what about the other 9,000 other members of .com?

If NTL want to contact and work with users why not a single word to the membership of .com since closure?

Why not just change the admins rather than close the site completely?

Maybe as a member of NTLHELL you could ask Peter the answer to those questions rather than making it so personal about a few individuals here.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

One thing I learned from being an NTL associate and an admin on .com is that no matter what happens, NTL will do what NTL wants to do, irregardless of what evidence or ideas are placed before them. Oh yeah, they'll invite you to meetings, they'll feign interest in what you have to say but if for one moment you believe that your (this is not aimed at anyone in particular) ideas or proposals will make one iota of difference to NTL then you are very much mistaken. NTL will only listen to other ideas when it suits them, and that simply isn't very often.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

NTL did not form a relationship with the users directly, they chose to work through the .com team. It was the .com team that went to (private) meetings with NTL, not users. No portion of these meeting was public to users, no minutes published etc.

I can not and do not speak for NTL. All I am saying is it is a bit unfair to critise NTL for trying to work with users, because they have chosen (with valid reasons imo - as a user) to not do so via people they have already failed with in the past.

A suggestion I myself made, as was 'revealed' by some here. It is not an option they chose to look at, though I do not know if .com has any future or not. I can understand why they may have felt that such a change of admins would not be effective, especially given what has occured since I made the suggestion to them

If you have questions for Peter I suggest you address them to Peter. There is no need (or desire on my part) for me to be a middle man. I have not made it personal at all. I have pointed out that NTL tried for over a year to work with the admins here, as users representatives and that they have decided that they are not able to work in this way with these people. That is not personal. It is merely my perspective on what has happend in the past.

It seemed that NTL was being critisied for still trying to find ways of working with users, all be it not via this site or those that run it. I think they should be given credit for such efforts not critisied for them. To critisise them because they chose not to do so via this site, and especially given the history, seems to me to be about 'politics' and not about users.

I do not care who where or how they work with users just as long as they keep trying to realise the potential value of doing so in an online world. Just as I do not care who's idea a 'consumer council' with NTL is, just that efforts are made to realise it and get value for both parties from it.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

But Erol - they don't try to work with users! NTL have met with more than just the .com people, they've had regular face-to-face meetings with customers which acheive little or nothing! They get well-meaning people like Peter to arrange and chair the meets but what becomes of them? Something between little and nothing, I can tell you.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

With respect Russ that just sounds like 'if a first you do not sucseed - give up'.

Maybe NTL will not listen. Maybe they will BS you. Does that mean that users should not keep on trying to get them to address their issues jointly and directly?

Sure NTL will do what NTL wants - do users do any different? The whole objective is to try and find win - win senarios and convince the right people of the case. If you get fobbed off - keep trying. If they BS, you respond not in kind but with ever more reasoned and refined arguments. Keep on trying. That way you have a chance, however small, of effecting change. Decide that there is no point - attack NTL at any opportunity - slate any attempt NTL makes to interact with it's users unless it's on your terms - and you have no chance imo of effecting change.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Well to me little is better than nothing.

So what is your suggestion? Give up on or slate any attempt by NTL to interact with it's connected customers? Try and 'force' them to do what you want?

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

More crap, we actually suggested bringing users into meetings (conference calls) ntl rejected the suggestions, the actual meetings in person we were not allowed into except Frank and look how they treated him. Their own EMPLOYEE!!!


You do not know jack about 'working' with ntl, I did not see ntl running and chasing you taking up your offer to be a 'spokes person' for the customer, no infact you helped to give ntl the perfect excuse they were looking for when they closed that site, let me reiterate that for you. 'Ten users or so of the site seemed to dominate the discussion, it cannot continue like this and as such the site is closing for two weeks while the service is reviewed though it isn't likely that it will return'



Again you have no idea what it was like trying to work with ntl and that site - IMO they bought that site with every intention of closing it and silencing the criticism once and for all. They were just buying their time.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Maybe the "don't give up too easiliy" is what NTL need to pick up on rather than leaving myself and 9000 others in the lurch they way they have.

I for one am not slating their efforts just raising some questions about how they appear to have chosen how to do it this time. You seem to be the one making out they are the ones being childish and petulant about this forum. As this whole thread suggests some of us are actually trying to find a constructive way forward.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

I really think too many people on this site are trying to read far too much into events - I don't suppose anybody considered the more obvious reason that Peter simply posted it on the two sites he is a member of ?

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Can't help but be struck by the irony of this response Erol.

First time you are asked to put forward an idea from a user to NTL and you decline to help at all. Thanks bro very constructive. (NOT)

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

I have declined to act as a 'go between' between you as a user and NTL because there is no need and I simply do not think that is a valid role for me.
I have provided you with the means to put your ideas and questions forward yourself. Is that not constructive bro ?

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Yes and many thanks for that Erol I withdraw the (Not) unreservedly.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

If NTL have treated Frank unfairly then there are avenues for Frank to take to have that addressed, which I believe he is doing. I do not know what went on between Frank and NTL but my best guess is that Frank was no 'angel' in terms of how he behaved as an NTL employee. How NTL treats it's employees is not relevant to me as far as trying to get effective interaction between NTL and users going.

Actually I do have some experience of 'working' with NTL as a 'consumer representative'. Before the .com site even existed I had been invited to NTL in such a role along with a colleague and I continue to 'interact' with NTL (as I do with all the other UK internet players in industry and government).

I wish you would make up your minds. First Neil accuses me of being the reason .com was closed. The an 'offical' statement from the team here says it was not caused by any indivdual - solely by NTL themselves. Now you once again appear to try and lay some blame at my door. It seems to me the only thing you are consistent about is that those that had direct contact with NTL on behalf of users have no blame whatso ever in the closure of .com. Nothing they did or said or ways they behaved could possibly have had any impacy on NTL's decision to close it, apparently.

Well if all they needed was an 'excuse' there were ample opportunites before I made three posts in three seperate threads in the space of 20 minutes (all constructive and ways that users could work togeather regardless of any 'support' from NTL or not). Like when one of the admins of the .com site hacked NTLH. Or when one of the mods persistently abused his power as a mod at the expense of NTL customers. Or any other number of much better reasons than the one you suggest.

Whatever the objective in buying the site (and many cautioned Frank and the mods at the time about NTLs motives and were told 'we know what we are doing - trust us - wait and see') the fact remains there are still some within NTL that are continuing to try and find ways of working constructively with conected users. I give them credit for that.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Just like you do not know what went on between ntl and us, yet you make stuff up as you go along as you see fit. :rolleyes:


I do blame ntl for they wanted that site shut regardless, they had not really played any huge interest in developing it. I joined the team in March and could not believe how little ntl did to promote that site. By June there was serious talks of closure and we was given a date. But the final nail in the coffin was due to the last few weeks of mayhem.



Correct, I am glad it seems to you. We did our duty, we helped lots of customers get the service they deserve, more so than you could ever of done.


Correct but 'some' is nowhere near enough, NTL should be in leaps and bounds and actually listening to the people that matter to them, real customers. I believe one man tried to achieve this goal and his suggestions, his ideas all fell on deaf ears. I'm sick of repeating myself, but if they were not gonna listen to Frank (their own employee), they certainly were not going to listen to us.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Show me where I have made stuff up and I will happily appologise for it. If you can not, will you appologise to me for the accusation?

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

No. gone are the days I run around after you erolz, I have far better things to do with my time than argue with you. Sorry if that seems personal but you made it very personal tonight with your alternative perspectives nonsense. :)

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

but when NTL were running .com, Peter also wanted to have nothing to do with that site as well. and also when .com was up and running, various ideas for a user forum were ignored. so who has failed to come up with the goods?

In my opinion it looked very unprofessional to have a company run web site and a product development manager who openly wanted nothing to do with it. Whatever the issues were, they should have been resolved. I even asked Peter openly what was driving him away from .com and didnt get an answer.

As everyone knows, my feelings about this site and how it came about are varied and not rose tinted... but the fact remains... .com no longer exists or is in coma. That's the kind of choices NTL management make.

and did we not have a 'power users' forum where emails were invited but ignored. another example of NTL connecting with users.


:rofl: thanks for bringing that old chestnut back! and what were these 10 or so dominatrixes wanting to discuss which was so terrible that .com had to close down...? I think it was the customer panel idea!

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Like making unsupported accusations about me? I am not surprised that you will neither support your accusations with evidence or appologise for making them.

Well I am sorry that by pointing out that NTL are reluctant to work with indivduals that they have already tried working with in the past and found the relationship to be unworkable / unsatisfactory, you see that as a personal attack.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

You said you do not know what happened with Frank and ntl yet you seem absolutely sure, you know what happened with us, hmm - I am having a memory blackout here, I do not remember you being there in the background, so I would like to know how you possibly know everything about us when quite clearly you do not.



Get it right, it was the other way round, we found that it was not workable with them - when it came to the decision making we was kept right out of it.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Maybe this thread should be closed now as it seems to have deterioated into another mods/erolz argument. :(

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

I'm sorry that this has occurred I really am, but I find it really annoying when someone makes things out that quite clearly are untrue. I will refrain from any further exchanges between myself and erolz. Let the customer panel idea discussion continue. :)

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

No way!!

That would be to allow Erol to be the cause of closing a positive thread in much the same way as his unfortunate style and combative attitude, just when things were getting far better at .com, was at least a part of the decision to close the whole forum.

I'm not saying Erol was completely to blame, but I for one always cringed when he joined any thread in "support" of a good idea as his style and attitude alwys tended to have this effect of making a discussion a personal one. The phrase "with friends like that who need enemies" always sprung to mind.

I therefore ask Erol to refrain from further enflaming the situation and that the mods assist in this by not responding further to his posts if he does post again as it is clear the history between them makes constructive debate impossible.

EDIT: I see Dr P has already responded positively so many thanks Dr P your post is very much appreciated. I just hope Erol will follow the example.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Erol may post comments which some people will feel strongly about (and I'm not sticking up for anyone here) but remember there won't be any personal attacks on this site.... :)

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Perhaps it would be wise to hold back with comments about people who are not here to be able to speak up for themselves.....

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

I really think this thread needs to get back to customers ideas that could help solve todays problems.

I do know Peter will not be happy being dragged into this when he has no way to defend himself.

Lets just continue and plan to build a better future for NTL's customers.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

From what I have seen, ntl have made no effort at all to try to work with the customers who gave feedback by way of the 'hell' sites. It's no good trying to blame those running the sites either. The complaints and feedback were there for all to see, clearly said and posted.

What chance had the efforts of those running such sites of being listened to, however hard they tried, when the previous owner and editor of the .com site, then working at ntl and privy to the meetings, could not even get through to ntl, quote Frank [ I told them till I was blue in the face ] end-quote.

There was never any effort made by ntl to correct the source of those last-resort complaints that came to the .com hell site, which had to fixed through the 'back-door' contacts. The same complaints just kept recurring again and again, nothing changed, and none of the feedback of those complaints was taken on-board by ntl.

The only use ntl seemed to see in having the .com site, was to con customers that they wanted to work with them, but it was rather, an attempt to quieten the criticism down. I suspect that is also ntl's ulterior motive in their latest moves towards other 'hell' sites.

NTL have no genuine interest in working with customers. They prefer to either quieten them down, or ignore them completely, to quote Ashley Grossman [-we could close the site down, ride out a few weeks bad press and quietly ignore the many protest sites and alternative sites that would undoubtedly spring up.] end-quote.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

I think we should at least give NTL a chance to respond to the general theme of this thread before we jump to any conclusions about what that reaction will be.

I will be putting together a mail to Peter in as positive a way as possible and remain hopefull that we can find a constructive way forward.

It will help that process if we all try to think and act more positively and put any past bad experiences behind us as that will be part of what I say to Peter in my message to him.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

'Product development' could be started, by sorting out ntl's present services, before adding more product burden upon them.

It might also be an idea, to keep open any 'face to face user forum' that they may set up. Peter M could speak to Ashley G on advice of setting one up, if there is any communication there.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

it wasnt aimed as a comment aimed at or about any paticular person just about how unprofessional it looked.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Just to throw in my 2ps worth.

I am under the impression that NTL would be very reluctant to enter into any such negotiations with this site for a few of the reasons below.

It is highly unlikely that NTL will want to get their fingers burnt again as they did in the past by their so called Mods/Admins deceiving them and lying to the members while all along taking NTLs money by way of payment for moderating the site when all along they putting back ups in place to move here.

Now I am not flaming here as I have accepted the current teams reasons for doing this.

There were at the time of .com certain Mods/Admin who abused their powers by putting their jack boots on jumping down on anyone who was remotely critical of the site which then fast tracked the idea of closure to NTL as the constant closing of threads was becoming a joke as far as NTL were concerned and the site was no longer being taken serious.

Ironically at this time NTL were pulling out all the stops to snoop and try and find out if the current team at the time were trying to assist the sites closure while they were setting up this one but it was all to no avail and was a pretty well kept secret.

I thought and still do think it was wrong of the team there at the time to single out individuals and blame them for the closure, they have contributed in a certain way but to single out certain individuals and even name them at one point was bang out of order when they themselves were happily contributing to the demise of a site they were being paid to moderate etc.

Smacks a bit of double standards, but life moves on and it happened.

I really donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t envy the person who is given the task of trying to convince NTL to enter into any form of negotiations with a Customer Based Panel in anyway connected with this site when they will know full well that some of the current team here were the same team that schemed and lied to them while on their payroll setting this place up as back up contingency for when their bubble finally burst.

The chance to negotiate with NTL was squandered the day the team over there decided to shaft them and set this site up as a back up, and no doubt they will be very unwilling to give you or anyone connected here with a second chance.

Without naming any names I agree in part with Erol posted some time ago and share the view that to get NTL to listen to the its users is not going to be done with certain members of the team here as they are not the most appropriate people to get the job done.

As I have said above and I will say again this is my personal opinion and I am not flaming anyone here as I have accepted the current teamâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s reasons for setting this site up and think up to now the site has become fair more successful than .com ever was in certain aspects.

Anyhow enough from me, I admire the sentiments and the idea of trying to set up the Customer Panel but whoever his labelled and given this task personally I really think you are fighting a losing battle here although I would love to be proved wrong.

:)

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

.....so instead they go to another NTL forum where they don't need to spend much/anything to get customers on their side :)

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

We are now discussing this here what NTL was offering to replace .com wouldn't have allowed what is happening here now.

There was a problem on both sides the Admin team was getting help for customers that part worked extremely well. The problem was the management who was only looking for ways or excuses to close .com down.

Participation from management on .com was extremely poor this created the problems. The Admin team could see they were being ignored and this is never good. This showed a complete lack of communication. Now they have seen this they decide to try the panel. It was only posted on two forums when it should have gone out as general realise. It was unfortunate that one of the forums was one that had to clear a lot out to make them look more NTL friendly.

I know this is the same admin team as .com but Ashley G has to look to himself for what has happened. Had he been more a true manager accepted the forums for the information and feedback it could give instead of the customers are enemyââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s forum things would have been different. This team perhaps became frustrated with Ashley as he had a one track mind when it came to the forums that was it was closing he just hadn't completely decided when.

Lets not pass the blame onto this team they have worked hard for the customers under bad conditions and got the best they could for the customers.. Ashley G had only one agenda close the forums so customers couldn't complain.

Now we have more than one way to get things sorted if NTL are slow to respond. We have this forum, ISPreview complaints, and http://www.arbitrators.org/cisas/ if NTL are in the cisas. A lot have been using them to work between the customer and the ISP to create communication and resolve the problem.

A long post yes but it had to be to show that communication between manager and Admins had died and the Admins was only thinking of their members/NTL customers at the time.

I sent Ashley emails which he decided to ignore just after the plug was pulled like the ones sent to all managers. Again NTL had shown a bad case of companyââ‚à ‚¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s lack of communication.

Peter M is offering a way to communicate and it has to be accepted. I have been in communication with Peter and he does reply which is a positive step forward maybe other managers will see that this is a way to improve the company.

It is a new year and these Admins shouldnââ‚à ‚¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t be blamed for NTLs uncooperative attitude. Itâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s in NTLs court to build bridges and bring all the customers into any decision on the panel.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

It's still a shame though that Peter is inviting people to join 'trials' but ignoring this forum - at the end of the day, it's the members of this forum who miss out - NTL staff should remember that the members of this forum are no different to members on the other forums - ie they all have something in common - they are customers.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

I really think ntl should be sorting out their current
services rather then introducing new ones,it stinks
of politics and pettyness why a product
manager has decided to ignore customers here,its a typical
ntl attitude,putting politics first before customers.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

How the hell do you come up with that carlingman? We was told ntl wanted the site closed by 24th June 2003, this was launched on the 20th June 2003 any idea to launch this site before we was told this did not exist so how we helped assist in the closure i'll never know, when ntl had already decided this way back, before any idea went into creating this site. :)

If ntl ignore a customer panel because they are members of this site, then that just goes to show how 'petty' and full of politics ntl are.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

I wouldn't agree that he's ignoring customers from here as many people from here post over there as well, but I think it would be nice if a similar announcement was made here. I understand that NTL would be weary of working with the admin team here but they could make such an offer without involving us.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

They could, we have to mail trials@ntl.com and tell them we are from ntlhell
whats wrong with saying hold on a minute I'm not a member
of that forum, but I AM A CUSTOMER???

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

I don't think it would be practical to contact every customer, so they just get a few through other means, and doing it through an NTL related forum (where, naturally, you can expect to find NTL customers) is in theory a good idea but my point is that the offer should not be made to just one site, especially when there are others with higher membership numbers.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

This has never been about Admins it has always been about Members.

One interesting point many seem to have missed was that even back on .com when this idea was first put forward a distinction was always made between the general membership of the forum and the Admin team.

Because of the special circumstances of .com there was an obvious need to include the admin teams in addition to nominated "MEMBERS" because of NTL's ownership of that site it would have been imposible not to.

That is no longer the case though and it now seems entirely appropriate that any "panel" should be drawn from the membership of "All" NTL user groups if it is to have credibility and actually work in any positive way.

What unites us all is our being customers of NTL not our individual association with specific forums. The impression given by the apparent deliberate exclusion of this forum is that this was meant to divide the various groups.

Please do not allow that to happen. The best way to do this is by putting the past behind us and concentrating on constructive ways to move this idea forward instead.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

I've been asked to point out that such an offer was made here on the 24th of October 2003 and can be found here and a similar post made on Chetnet on or around the 6th November.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Thanks for that Russ.

Part of the problem for people like myself is that as we are not members of any other forum it was not possible to know what this latest "offer" to participate was actually about. That would have been avoided had they posted here as well of course, but better late than never.

The implication from what was originally posted in this thread was that NTL were moving forward with the "panel" idea but deliberately excluding us. It would seem from what you have just posted this was not the case at all but simply them following up on that one specific trial which we already knew about.

Thanks again for the clarification.

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

Admin and moderators, I take it, would be just as welcome on any panel, as other customers. Or they should be, regardless of what their previous relationship was with ntl, or how they got on with them.

It seems to me that pretty well the main message that the customer panel would be, is to give customers, services that actually work as they should do, barring the exceptional occasion.

It's a customer message that already can be seen and read by ntl at any time on the 'hell' sites. It's a message, in effect, by an all-member 'customer panel'. It hardly really needs another 'panel' to meet with ntl to tell them of that bit of feedback. It is not news.

Where a direct-contact panel can be an asset though, is in telling ntl of a new need or desire of the customers, or of a different way that something might be done.

With a company that seeks out customer feedback, and works with that customer feedback, to the mutual benefit of both customer and company, that is where a 'customer panel' can work well for the future.

Has ntl done that New Year somersault, and is no longer of the past?

On the product development trials.
When trying out a new product development, I would have thought that it would be best to use people who had no service problems, otherwise it could produce faulty results. Which makes it seem strange to me, that ntl goes to 'hell' sites, where people have sevice problems, and are used for the trial.

Then again, maybe they want the trial carried out under 'normal' ntl service conditions. If it works under 'hell' conditions, it will work anywhere. ;)

Re: Proposal for a "Customer" Panel
 

It really isn't fair to put the blame at Peter he does post on the other two forums but not here I am sure if Pointman was around he would have like he did for the news trails.

Let us not create a wall between us and the few that are trying to communicate. The more members have a go at Pete then less likely he is to want this forums members on the trails. Please give things a chance.