I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Hi, I have got an email from NTL this afternoon saying for an extra £7 a month I go can up to the 2MB Broadband service.


When I looked on the site it was inviting me to look at it said it cost £24 a month which is more than £7 a month rise as I pay £9.99 for 1MB. I called and they said they wouldn't honour the ad.


I am mad as no where on the ad does this say if you are paying a certain amount already then you only pay £7 extra more does it say the total of £24.


Surely as I never asked for this invite they should honour what the offer me or would I be correct in thinking this is false advertising and I can take NTL to court on that basis? The guy on the phone said it was just a general advert and it didn't know that I was on the £9.99 a month deal, well i am sorry but in my books it should know and either I shouldn't have been sent this OR it should say offer not available to £9.99 customers


Thannk you in advance


PJ

Here is the whole advert


http://www.alchemyworx.com/ntl/broadband/feb06/logo.gif http://www.alchemyworx.com/ntl/broad...b06/spacer.gif http://www.alchemyworx.com/ntl/broad...ages/main1.jpg

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http://www.alchemyworx.com/ntl/broad...s/heading2.gif
Keep your family entertained with FREE Broadband Plus when you upgrade to Unlimited 2Mb Broadband. Great music, games and kids' content worth over £30 a month - includes 15 photo prints delivered every month. Sign up now at www.ntlworld.com/broadbandplus.
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Keep your family safe online with ntl Netguard. It's FREE PC security worth £40 and protects you against viruses and unwanted pop-ups. If you haven't installed it yet simply go to www.ntlworld.com/netguard now. http://www.alchemyworx.com/ntl/broad...ightspacer.gif http://www.alchemyworx.com/ntl/broad...reenbottom.gif
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Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

It looks like it's violating trading standards to me.
http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/

Generally, if something is advertised at a certain price, the seller has a legal obligation to sell it at that price. Happens a lot at my work.

This is a little different, as the actual price for the service isn't stated, but would be worth looking into.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

I got the same email and am on the same £9.99 deal. A little thoughtless of them - as far as I know some users HAVE been allowed the upgrade at £7 - I've read recently on another forum I think (perhaps digital spy) so I suggest you ring again tomorrow and see if you get another CSR who's more helpful - BUT you still might be promised something which when you get your bill turns out to be the full price.

---------- Post added at 17:24 ---------- Previous post was at 17:23 ----------

I take my hat off to you - what a brilliant idea.

---------- Post added at 17:26 ---------- Previous post was at 17:24 ----------

here's a link for all you folks.

http://www.alchemyworx.com/ntl/broadband/feb06/1mb.htm

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

I am not sure if this applies to email advertising, but I know that when I worked in a shop, if we advertised something at the wrong price, we were told to refuse to sell it. I suspect NTL can do the same.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Not at all.

A price ticket (in a shop for example) is nothing more that an 'invitation to treat' which means that you offer the money that's shown on the ticket & they accept, but if the item is priced wrongly they can refuse & withdraw the item from sale.

They're not obliged to sell at that price.

[Edit]-Beathen to it by Stu! :D

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

yeah I think you could only win on this if you clicked on a link that came up with the price as £16.99 (£9.99 plus £7) and then clicked on 'proceed' or whatever and then your bill came in at £24.99.

I suggest ring again and moan like an old woman. !

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Thank you for your replies guys, what annoyed me the most was while I was waiting to see if a manager was free the op didn't put me on hold and muttered interesting and I see .... i said politly sorry are you talking to me when he replyed sorry I was thinking outloud, I have noticed we haven't charged you for phone rental since November and if I hadn't noticed you would have got away with it .... in a really smug "if you hadn't of complained you would have got away with it .. erm sorry mate I got away with nothing if NTL can't sort out a bill that is not my fault, i got rid of CATV and just had net and telco, I don't have to re do my bill as far as I was concened.



I am still waiting for a refund of over £40 as they mucked up our bill three months in a row and was just going to leave it on the account, then the 2MB thing and then the smugness of the guy ... hope you can see why I am mad ...

I was ntohing but polite on the call I work in a callcentre so I am never rude, I know what it is like but makes me wish I could be rude sometimes when I get this rubbish


Sorry to moan

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Taken from:
http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/c...V0043-1011.txt

Surely a misleading price is being advertised?

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

I would definitely say that's a misleading price BUT perhaps intent would be the issue - did they intend to mislead or is it just an act of thoughtlessness?

I'd say it's more incompetence than misleading deliberately.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

I think that sums up ntl nicely. :)

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

I am ringing them now.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

No, because as Neil said, NTL have not advertised any prices. They have sent the original poster an 'invitation to treat'.

Also, we haven't seen the original email so don't know what caveats were included, whether it referred to the T&Cs, that sort of thing.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

that page is the original (well same as) advert. erm treat invite!

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

No cavats except the ones in the bit I cut and paste about 12 months and speed

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

"because that's a special offer it would come off if you change your package" is what I've been told - so no no no!

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Report them to Trading Standards then.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

I shall consider a letter of complaint now to TS as this is in my opinion wrong.

---------- Post added at 18:03 ---------- Previous post was at 18:00 ----------

I recon this is a computer related issue - they cant do it cos 'computer says no'.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Just called back to quote the Ts thing that was kindly found for me and surpise surpise they can't get into my account details and I should call tomorrow hmmmmm odd

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

complaint sent.

---------- Post added at 18:22 ---------- Previous post was at 18:20 ----------

ok here's your letter if you would like to complain to TS.


Dear Sir,

Today I received an email from NTL - the contents of which can be viewed here:-

http://www.alchemyworx.com/ntl/broadband/feb06/1mb.htm

It clearly states that for an extra £7 a month I can upgrade my broadband service to 2mb.

quote "Take a look at all the extra value you'll get by upgrading to our unlimited 2Mb Broadband service for only £7 more a month!"

I am currently paying a rate of £9.99 for my broadband service - I rang them today (0800 052 2000) and asked if I could take up this offer and therefore pay £16.99 a month for the service as per the email they sent me. They refused and told me I could only have this deal at £24.99 a month.

Their justification for this was that the price I currently pay is a special offer price which would be removed if I took up the offer sent to me by this email.

I believe they are trading inappropriately by adverting misleading price information to some of their existing customers as the email/invitation clearly offered me an upgrade for an extra £7 a month and not an extra £15 a month and has nothing in it that specifies customers already receiving discounts are excluded - this is misleading pricing information which will affect myself and a good number of other customers. Therefore all customers who receive this email should be entitled to upgrade to 2mb for £7 as no exclusions are listed.

Otherwise this may be a criminal offence:-
"Offences

If the seller is in business (rather than a private seller), he may have committed a criminal offence if he:
sells goods which are unsafe;
has given a false description to the goods i.e. a car sold with incorrect mileage (clocked car);
gives a false description to the services he is providing e.g. falsely claiming to be a member of a trade association;
advertises a misleading price;
....."

Yours sincerely

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

I would have thought that it was well known that most 'special offers' can not be used with other special offers. You already recieve discounted broadband to get the 2nd offer you would have to move off the 1st and onto the regular pricing to take advantage.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Thank you so much etccarmageddon, and everyone else on this thread, this is my first postings and I feel the lurve!!!


I will also send that letter to TS now


Thanks Again


PJ

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

but this £7 a month isn't a 'special offer' - it's just the price difference between 1mb and 2mb.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Don't these offers usually say 'terms and conditions apply' somewhere in incredibly small writing? ;)

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

that's why it doesnt say much in the way of T and C - cos it's not a special offer - it's just an invite to upgrade via the usual price structure.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Right..... sorry not familier with ntls price plans anymore as not in a ntl area.

I don't think its too much to ask to go for the same package. Had they stated the 1mb and 2mb prices it would have been clearer.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

it doesnt really make much sense - they're actually turning down our money!!!

---------- Post added at 18:33 ---------- Previous post was at 18:32 ----------

that's why I recon it's more to do with computer codes not able to handle it than anything else and erm that's lazyness.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Its true what the cs guys say as if the package shows on the system its a matter of clicking a mouse button to xhange it. However if the package has not been set-up then they would have to create a discount to couter that and thats where all the problems start as sometimes theres other things to do to get the discount to apply correctly.

whoever loads on the packages just needs to create it, its all simple but in a large company can take ages to sort out. Maybe they are wanting to get people off the 9.99 bb and onto a regular package?

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

ok without getting my head bitten off, the reason you wont get it is, that to get the £9.99 a month broadband package you are actaully charged for the full £17.99 a month for the BB package, but then there is a £8 discount added to this charge which gives you the £9.99 charge for the year......
There are no lower tariffs when you sign up for a package, its either 17.99 / 24.99 / 34.99, then to get the reduced rates, discounts are added to this charge to give you the monthly price you have agreed to......if you get what i mean...

It is going to be a case of cant have your cake & eat it im afraid, you wont get both discounts added to the account... well you can try, but they shouldnt be adding it....

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

In reply to Handyman, no I think who sent the email made an error as the £9.99 deal is fixed and will come off automatically for most people this summer. so it's not like the way they tried to get the discounted modem people off the discounts.

---------- Post added at 18:41 ---------- Previous post was at 18:40 ----------

when you say both discounts what are you referring to? there's only one and that's the £8 a month original discount. there's no discount involved in this £7 upgrade offer.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

no true, my fault i mis read it....:erm:

actually having a look, it is possible to do, just dont think it would be allowed ( havent tried it, just looks possible, anything could happen when you try to submit it.... ) as your crossing a discount aimed at the 1mb service & price range, & then trying to get this applied to a different speed & price tier. the £8 discount ( to get £9.99 ) currently received isnt a generic discount, it is only aimed at 1mb users..

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

I suspect when I speak to TS they will also get confused and think I'm after 2 discounts.!

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Just called CS and the manager said that Trading Standards have looked into this and have already said they don't have to honour it, I asked when was this ruling he said two days agao so I asked why did I receive the email yesterday when they knew there was a problem two days ago! No answer, I am not going to call Watchdog, Trading standards, and CAB. I never give in when I am in the right!!!

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Sounds like bull**** to me. You should complain to BBC watchdog and TS.

---------- Post added at 14:02 ---------- Previous post was at 13:55 ----------

personally I think you should leave CAB out of this as they are manned by volunteers and have enough on their plate - this is trivial compared to real issues like helping people with redundancy etc.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

So as I understand it you had signed up for the special 1MB £9.99 deal which will revert back to the normal price at some later predetermined date.Ok got that.

Then you got this email saying that for £7 on top you could upgrade to 2MB.

Trouble is I read that email as a generic email that gets sent to everyone(?) and will not apply to ongoing special deals because it is a special deal already..I think even NTL are not going to offer more than one special deal per household.

I can hear NTL's T&C getting a swift redraft just in case..;)

Also beware, sometimes these email are only for certain areas.This happened to me when nthellworld.com still existed and the famous/infamous CJ got me a special 128k trial because the email offer should never have been sent to me in the first place as it wasn't applicable to my area.

So maybe if you are disappointed someone might do the same for you. ;)

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

the email isn't a special deal - it's inviting the receipient to upgrade for the normal price difference between 1mb and 2mb which is £7.


as above - the 'usual' price is the same everywhere - 1mb for £17.99 and 2mb for £24.99 - difference is £7 as per the email.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

good advice about not going to CAB, I have contacted TS and watchdog and will post any more news

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

The email is a generic email sent to every 1MB customer. Its saying you can change to 2MB for only £7 extra a month as most 1MB custs will be paying the normal £17.99.

Whenever a company offers a discounted product it usually means no other discounts will be offered, or that you will loose your current discount if you change to an other offer or tariff.

I frequently get these generics email offers even though I do not pay the standard prices.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

why was it sent to every 1mb customer if it doesn't apply to every 1mb customer?

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

I am guessing the system sends it to everyone on that service level. I have had some in the past even though don't need any offers as am already on on.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

I haven't had one.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

either Darthyoda is wrong or yours will eventually get there!

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

it is clearly a mistake but they should legally honour it, I am sure trading standards would think that way.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Rather than a mistake, I would say it's sloppy. You shouldn't be sloppy in advertising. Being made to honour it will hopefully teach them a lesson.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

The thing that wound me up most about the manager was him saying that Trading Standards had ruled a full two days before I got my email that it was wrong but that NTL didn't have to honour it. Well I am sorry but that says to me that NTL knew about this and still sent mine and other people's out.


If I said to them I was paying a bill and then stopped the cheque they would go ape so when they offer me and others something they should not take it away either and as others have said honour their mistake - yeap I know it is nothing more nasty than incompitence but I am gonna take this all the way to the top if I have to

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

we both got the email at the same time, 1st March - so I suspect that was when it was first 'spammed' by NTL - therefore (if so) TS couldnt have ruled on this 2 days before. And as TS are notoriously slow in dealing with complaints it would have taken them at least a few days from receiving a complaint before deciding whether to 'rule' it invalid - therefore if they'd 'ruled' this email was ok 2 days before 1st March then it would have had to be from some who complained (probably) a week ago or more.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Or maybe you are not the first to have applied this ?

The way I understand it any flyer that is sent out is not a legally binding contract, it is, as has been said, an invitation to treat. This means that, if both sides are agreeable, a deal can be done. However in this case both sides are not agreeable.

Say for example a salesperson sends a quote and slips a decimal place, they are not legally bound to honnor that quote. In this case they are saying that, if you are on full price 1mb, the difference between the 2mb service is £7.

It does not say that you will get this, but rather that you could.

It will be interesting to see what your TS, CAB and Watchdog say about it.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

See Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain v Boots Limited and the Kodak case in 2002 (which isn't reported in the law reports as it was settled out of court.

It is clearly an invitation to treat, not an offer of contract.

Can't believe the fuss everyone is making about this.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

I can.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

It is just an invitation nothing more.

I mean I have NTL and have done for a few years and yet they still send flyers inviting me to sign up to NTL with all their offers but I can't make use of them.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

I am off sick from work and on 75% pay and my mum who I live with is on a pension. We were offered something for £7 a month extra by NTL. I didn't call up and say what offers have you got or anything like that, they offered it to me without me asking so therefore given our cirumstances we wanted to grab it with both hands.


In the grand plan of things with the world in the state it is, yes my broadband is very very very minor but I just think if a company makes a muck up like this, they should honour it, esp as it just doesn't add up, for example the timing and the fact they said all 1mb customers got this add but yet this thread has prooved this is not the case.

Not trying to sound rude on your forum and I respect your views but I really don't think I am making a fuss like you say.

Have a great day


PJ

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

I'm sorry, I'm not following this - if your finances are tight, why would you want to sign up to give NTL £7 *more* every month? :confused:

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Well hopefully I will be back to work soon and it would be a great help to get a good deal on faster BB.


I think at the end of the day TS will rule in favour and will end up costing NTL far more rather than doing the descent thing now and honouring it

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

So why do you want to [i]increase[/u] your financial outgoings each month?


But if finances are so tight why are you even thinking about it?

Not trying to be rude either, but I'm not sure why you are evening making a point.

You didn't want to pay out any extra cash before the flyer arrived, then you thought you might be able to get more for £7, now you don't want to spend any more so you're back where you started.

Nothing lost really. :shrug:

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

When I am not sick some of my work is via the internet so a better connection speed would be great.



At the end of the day that is a side issue. I was targeted with an Advert from NTL with an offer. When I called up to take up that offer i was told I couldn't.


I guess it is like offering you a sweet, you didn't want it before, you can cope without it, but as I offered it to you, it would be rude of me to say no when you say yes please

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

I assume he means he can afford £7 but not £15? ps. evening to you too! what time zone are you in today Neil!

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Then you should have a business connection, & not a residential one.

Fair enough, but then you shouldn't have mentioned that you were off sick & implied that money was an issue IMO.

Not really as you make no mention of changing prices in your analagy.

---------- Post added at 11:30 ---------- Previous post was at 11:29 ----------

What are you on about? :erm:

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

erm well I didn't want to go into my personal details on this forum but as you mentioned it, when I say work it is a website for the band I do sound for, so hardly a buisness :)

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

So you are using a domestic installation for business purposes, which is against the terms & conditions of your contract, but when NTL make a mistake by not including a disclaimer to say 2 offers/discounts can not be applied to your account at the same time, you shout from the rooftops & want to involve Trading Standards & Watchdog.

I am totally in favour of taking NTL to task if they are at fault, but in this case I feel the reaction is disproportionate to the problem.

This is my personal opinion, of course, and I don't want to seem to be antagonistic, as I can understand you being disappointed, but to be honest, as someone who pays full price for my connection - and am effectively subsidising your discount, I feel you are being greedy, sorry.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

As Chris stated, the law sees as an Invitation to treat. If you had signed up, and NTL had allowed it, then you would have entered into a contract, and NTL would be legally bound to honour it (within Terms and Conditions).

As it is, yes, they have advertised to you. The same way that they (and other companies) advertise to thousands of people. I have been an NTL customer for 6 years, and had broadband for 5 of them. I *still* get letters from NTL pointing out they do broadband in my area and inviting me to apply. The same with other companies. However, as you have found out, Advertising something does *not* necessarily mean it's available for everyone.

NTL were done (rightly so) by the ASA for advertising broadband in parts f London. This, IMO, was justified as broadband was not available to anyone in those parts of London at the time, and no release date was given. The adverts concerned stated it was available.

Another point, as Chris T has said, if I were in your financial situation, I would not be looking at upgrading my BB speed. That (to me) is a luxury.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

:p:

---------- Post added at 12:35 ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 ----------

how would paying £7 a month more to NTL be greedy?

at the moment he's getting a discount of 38% by paying £9.99 for something that normally costs £17.99.

If NTL honoured the email 'invite' then he'd be paying £16.99 for something that normally costs £24.99 a month then that would reduce the discount percentage to 28%.

if anything NTL are better off upgrading him.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

So I take it you both work for NTL? You seem both very touchy about this subject.


At the end of the day this is not to do with how much I spend and what I spend it on. This is to do with NTL sending me an offer and then when I want to take it up they say no.


This is morally wrong and i am hoping I will, with the help of TS and Watchdog (both have agreed to take up my case for me) proove that they are legally in the wrong and will have the last laugh

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

I don't think anyone that has replied works for ntl (but as you haven't quoted anyone directly it's hard to know who you are referring to)


Then don't mention it. :)

Agreed. :)

I'm not sure Watchdog will have said anything yet. At most they will have said that they will look in to it.

Trading Standards will also investigate, no one will have said they will "take up the case for you" without 1st establising whether there is a case for ntl to answer.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

As I said, the mistake NTL made was in not incorporating a disclaimer in relation to piggy backing different offers/discounts. A lot of companies issue special offers with an 'E&OE' disclaimer, or 'cannot be used in conjunction with any other offer'. I thought it was quite clear that the '£7 more' was meant to be based on the full price, myself. :)

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

I'm not sure it's 'morally wrong' but it certainly is not the right way to deal with customers. Where possible when offering service to customers you should go the extra mile provided it isn't to the detriment of the company and provided it isn't unprofitable. As this £7 contains no discount I cant see why there should be any customers excluded other than 'computer issues' and indifference/lack of thought.

---------- Post added at 14:23 ---------- Previous post was at 14:18 ----------

I wonder how they'd handle a customer who rang asking for upgrading to 10mb while keeping their £7 discount - would they rather keep the revenue at £9.99 or proceed with the upgrade to 10mb at £27.99 a month? I suspect they'd go "sorry can't do it - we'd rather not have the extra £18 a month from you"! DOH

Or they'd upgrade you and promise you'd keep the discount but when your DD goes through you're paying £34.99.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

But they couldn't keep the discount as it only applys to the 1MB service.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

but it can't only apply to the 1mb service as I'm on the discount and I've got an email here inviting me to upgrade to 2mb for £7! :p:

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Am I the only person who finds the expression 'invitation to treat' really irritating?

Treat??? I'm not expecting them to offer me a massage or a BJ ;)

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

It's a legal term.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

I think what we have here is a classic case of loose wording by NTL marketing. We all know they have done it before. Remember that newspaper ad they took out a couple of years ago that boasted Spiderman was available to download online before it was in the cinema (they told the ASA they meant to say the trailer was online before it was in the cinema, honest, guv)?

We all just need to accept they are not very good at this lark and then get on with life. Leave the poor souls alone to contemplate their mediocrity.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Yeh, I know, but it's still irritating!

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Maybe I'm just a bit innocent, but when I hear 'invitation to treat' I think about a night at a restaurant without having to pay the bill - not a couple of hours in some red-lit massage parlour with the 'extras' thrown in gratis. :erm:

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Well whenever I see or recieve such Offers I tend to view them with suspicion and then I come and ask CF about them.That way I'm bound to get the true picture from someone who does work at NTL...It can save a lot of irritation.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

All it means to me and probably any other discounted 1mb users is that we'll wait until our discount ends and then upgrade to 2mb - so NTL will lose out on £7 * 5 (the 5 months left of my discount) - £35. and for some 1mb users they may decide to ditch NTL for offering a 'treat' and then withdrawing the 'treat' offer.



their finest moment!

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Ok.Some perspective.

Ntl in the last two years(?) have upped my speed from 128k to 1MB for no increase at all.How's that for service?

:)

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

not bad but I'm paying £8 a month less than you for the same speed! :PP: now that's what I call excellent service.

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

pwn3d! :D

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Ok I'll bite.How come?

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

it wasn't intended as bait - I thought you already knew.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...t=31482&page=9

last summer they put a flyer out offering 1mb for £9.99 (for 12 months) for new customers and those mighty fine people in rententions let existing customers have it also if they asked. and to quote the excellent service professional in retentions "I agree, I personally dont think it's right existing customers aren't getting this" (in as many words).

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

Missed that one...is it back to 17.99 after the 12 months is up?:erm:

Re: I am so angry please can someone advise
 

sadly yes.