Black in spirit?
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertain...ic/3283479.stm

So you can forget it if you're 'white in spirit'....good job that wasn't the criteria for 'Popstars' then isn't it! Wouldn't want any nasty racists involved :rolleyes:

Re: Black in spirit?
 

I can see what they mean about 'black in spirit', but can you imagine the furore if a band had advertised for members saying 'you can be any colour as long as you're white in spirit'.

Of course, any sensible person would understand 'black in spirit' and 'white in spirit' in the same way - having an empathy for the cultural influences that produce a particular musical sound.

However I'm expecting the mad apologists of the race relations industry to fall upon this thread shortly and deny it.

Re: Black in spirit?
 

In a society where white people have all the power, i kinda think that saying something is "white in spirit" is entirely different from what they mean!!


When they get here......lets beat em up :)

Re: Black in spirit?
 

really russ you have just blown an issue way out of proportion they are an R&B group the women's version of the group will make R&B music as well with R&B you need certain types of voices black and white voices are diffarent and every singers voice suits a diffarent style of music

Re: Black in spirit?
 

Of course, taking someone's words and cheerfully ascribing them a different meaning, even when the intended meaning is abundantly clear, is a perfectly legitimate tactic for the race relations industry. :rolleyes:

Are you really saying that to ask for someone 'white in spirit' would be somehow inherently racist simply because 'white' is the ethnic majority in the UK?

I would never kick off on someone just 'cos I disagree with them. ;) :Peaceman:

Re: Black in spirit?
 

Is this about people making good music?Is this about people of any creed or colour making good music?I hope so.

As for the idea that only black people can make a certain 'black sound' is simply not true.I can remember when US radio stations were amazed to discover that Rod Stuart was actually white,because they thought he sounded black.

Again it's back to refusing to deal in stereotyping .

Anyway what the feck IS white music?ALL of todays modern music has it's roots in the gospel/blues and Rythm and Blues which developed out of the slavery culture of the US.

Incog. :)

Re: Black in spirit?
 

You see, I see it along the lines of this.

lets say in the police you have a "black policemans" group. Now people start to complain and say....why do we not have a "white policemans" group.
Well....the reason the black policemans group started was because the black policeman have been discriminated against and they could do with a bit of moral support from each other, even talk about situations they have been in to make future situations easier..

So what is the point of a white policemans group??


So basically......saying that they want someone "black in spirit" is almost like saying....someone that they can relate to, someone that follows their ideals even.

Why would you need or want a white only organisation or group............to exclude black people??? Well that has been going on for years anyway!!


Im not sure i explained that very well!!

Re: Black in spirit?
 

no you explained it very well indeed.

the trouble is that most people of white persuasion are terrified of talking or addressing black issues because they feel they are going to say or do the wrong thing.the results is that we never really get a really good healthy discussion because it makes us uncomfortable.

Incog.

Re: Black in spirit?
 

We have some fabulous healthy discussions on this board Incog.......well ...actually some of them dip down into the unhealthy but hey ...I deal with bad situations every day... and people can hide behind internet monickers so they can say what they want :)

Hmmmm......what am i saying??? This is the best place to ask daft questions maybe?

Re: Black in spirit?
 

I think I get you, although I also think you started off by making an illustration and then got your illustration confused with the original 'contentious' point.

The folks that advertised for someone 'black in spirit' may well have meant, as you said, "someone that they can relate to, someone that follows their ideals even."

However, if that's the case, it would be entirely reasonable for a white group to advertise for someone 'white in spirit' - they could be black, white or whatever, so long as it's, to borrow your words again, "someone that they can relate to, someone that follows their ideals even." This is clearly not racist.

However in your illustration you finished up by asking about whites-only organisations. This is a completely different issue. The group in Russ' post are not forming a black-only group; my theoretical advert posted by whites is not forming a 'whites only' group. Both groups are simply asking for, as you put it, "someone that they can relate to, someone that follows their ideals even." Thus far, this is not racist. However, I fear there are some who would still see it as so.

Re: Black in spirit?
 

But then if they advertised for someone that upheld the "white spirit"....what exactly would that be? Basically the only reason they have "black spirit" is because of whites oppression.


So if they said......we want someone that will uphld the spirit of "Whites" it would be a group of people that oppressed black people.

Basically all i want to do is make it clear why it is fundamentally ok for black people to talk about "black power" and "black spirit" when you have had to fight for every last wee bit. But not ok to talk about "white spirit" or "white power" when our society is based on people who are white having more power. In fact not just in the UK but in the World.

In the World white people are the ethnic minority but they hold the most power.

Re: Black in spirit?
 

I would SWEAR you do this to bait me
;)

Re: Black in spirit?
 

And I could say the same right back at you ;)

Re: Black in spirit?
 

This is deeply unfair and patronizing towards black people. How can you say that several entire cultures (there being several shades of black in the world) are defined only by their oppression at the hands of whites? You have completely swept thousands of years of their tradition and belief under the carpet.

And even if it were the case that 'black spirit' is defined entirely by their oppression, it is quite ludicrous to suggest that 'white spirit' must therefore be defined entirely by their being oppressors. This also is a hopelessly reductionist view of history, ignoring vast amounts of tradition and culture that have absolutely nothing to do with opressing black people.

If you attempt to champion the cause of oppressed races by over-simplifying the history of the entire world, you do yourself, and those you wish to help, a great disservice.

Re: Black in spirit?
 

Im sorry, I was talking about "black spirit" in terms of oppresion. The original poster was talking about being "white in spirit" and i was discussing it in those terms.

Interesting what you say about sweeping thousands of years of tradition under the carpet....whch is entirely what white have traditionally have done. Which is why black people now try and claw something back!

Re: Black in spirit?
 

Well said... To be honest I think some people in the world create a bigger problem than there actually is.. Not just in Racial differences, but in all things.. If people left things alone, I think we'd find there's less of a problem.

Re: Black in spirit?
 

You're getting the wrong idea about my intentions in this thread. I was just pointing out how it would be seen as extremely politically incorrect to use an expression as "white in spirit" whereas "black in spirit" is deemed perfectly acceptable. I'm not talking about how people have oppressed over the years (something I have never done - so why should I feel excluded when I hear of 'black organisations'? I've never discriminated anyone of the grounds of their colour, race or whatever). Just one thing though - and I ask this as objectively as possible - can you understand (albeit probably not agree) why people such as myself are unhappy at hearing such discrimination against whites, seeing as I/we agree in equal opportunities for all?

Re: Black in spirit?
 

Nope :)

The way i see it is this.

Lets say you have two groups of people... green and blue.
The greens have all the power and money. The greens think of the blues as being bad people and lazy people. They even come up with scientific facts that say this about the blue people. The blue people outnumber the green people by quite a big number. They did not let the blue people enjoy many of the things that the green people could!
The green people actually say that everything green is good and everything blue is bad. That is in fact quite fundamental. That everything blue is bad!!

Eventually things start to change....mainly because the blue people got angry and decided to reclaim the fact that they are in fact blue and this is not a bad thing

The decided to make blue clubs so they could share experiances of what it was like to be shown as bad by the green people. They decided to enjoy there Blueness as for years it had been thought of as being bad. they even called it the spirit of being blue......the fact that they had overcome this !!!
They even took the bad words that the green people called them and made them there own........they would greet each other with "hey bluey" which was a derogetary term that green poeple used for them!


Which is why im hapy when i see blue spirit being promoted.....and why i think it is strange that it would annoy someone!


Im racist.....My society made me that way....the laws that i abide by perpetuate this, the places that i work try and combat this but really it will take a long long time!

Re: Black in spirit?
 

It certainly doesn't annoy me - as I said, I get annoyed when double standards are applied, such that it's ok to talk about 'black in spirit' as this must necessarily be a good thing, while 'white in spirit' is frowned on, as this must necessarily be bad.

I'm sorry you feel that way. You appear to be saying that to be white is to be institutionally racist. I completely disagree.

Re: Black in spirit?
 

yea but what i meant was that one you realise that....then you can move on and do something about it. Which is what i try and do!

So what is your opinion on it then? Does it annoy you that a group can promote "black spirit" ?

Do you think that "white spirit" should be promoted?

Re: Black in spirit?
 

I don't think white or black spirit should be promoted, but then again, you've admitted to being racist - my discussion with you on this subjects ends here.

Re: Black in spirit?
 

Im not racist in the way that you think i am Russ. Do you honestly think after every post you have read that i have written that I am in fact racist??


I said it as a point which was that if you live in this white society then you have got to realise that the structures that make up our society are fundamentally racist.
Once you realise this you can move forward.

hmmmm


On reflection perhaps what i should have said was "i collude with racism"

My primary role is to challenge white racism !!

Re: Black in spirit?
 

Oh I'm sorry, it's just when people post/say things like this, it give me the impression that they are in fact, 'racist'..... :rolleyes:

In which case please be more craeful with your words next time.

Your primary role is to challenge white racism? Good on you, I admire that, just as long as it's done responsibly. One of my primary roles is to challenge black racism, seems like we're at opposite ends of the spectrum in some respects but closer together in others.

Re: Black in spirit?
 

I agree with you to the extent that, growing up, I didn't spot the racist assumptions in our society ... they were just there and I was immersed in them, the jokes etc. However like you I have tried to do something about it since becoming 'aware'. I really do think that things have moved on in this country since then (I'm thinking back maybe 15 years), which is why I can't accept a charge of 'institutional racism' on the whole of 'white' society - enough of us know better, I think. I'm quite prepared to admit that plenty still don't, tho'.!

As for promotion of 'black spirit', no, that doesn't annoy me, certainly not if I have understood it correctly. I am giving it a wider interpretation than I think you are, as you seem to want to define black spirit in terms of oppression and nothing else. As for 'white spirit', I don't think there is a need for it to be 'promoted' in an abstract sense, but then that's not the original point raised in this thread. The original point, as I understood it, was to compare directly an advert for someone with 'black spirit' to join a band with a similar, theoretical advert under similar circumstances for a person with 'white spirit.' In those circumstances, because I do not see the 'white spirit' as fundamentally defined by oppression, I don't see a problem.

Re: Black in spirit?
 

Yea well........How was i to know you would take it the wrong way!!! Its SUNDAY.....im hungover OK !!!!!
:beer:


Anyway...... Have a read at this article

http://www.black-collegian.com/afric...itey1299.shtml

Re: Black in spirit?
 

Exactly!

Re: Black in spirit?
 

And all that has basically told us is "There are more white on black attacks than black on white" - well yeah, we knew that. But to underestimate racist attitudes and attacks on white is foolhardy and will only worsen the problem.

Re: Black in spirit?
 

What problem?

Re: Black in spirit?
 

but that is rare...........

Re: Black in spirit?
 

It's rare I agree but to treat it any less serious will only breed resentment and the feeling of double standards. I have never been racist to anyone (to the best of my knowledge) but if I reported someone for racially abusing me I would feel slightly put out if the response I received from the police would be any less than if I had been the purportrator, as I suspect would be the case.

Re: Black in spirit?
 

but russ im not denying that it goes on black on white racism but the police say they take racism seriously and i believe that is the truth whatever the case maybe your view is hypothetical and so is mine but im going on what i think is right based on what i have seen and so are you

Re: Black in spirit?
 

It seems to me that you have the easy job :)

Re: Black in spirit?
 

I'd certainly disagree that tackling ANY kind or racism is easy.

Kronas, from experience I would say the attitudes towards racist attacks on blacks is quite seperated from the the way white-victims are treated. If I can be proven wrong I'll back down on that.

Re: Black in spirit?
 

are you saying you have been on the recieving end of racism ?

Re: Black in spirit?
 

Maybe if people didnt go around challanging racism all the time, It'd just go away?

Re: Black in spirit?
 

Unlikely. The sooner we all intermarry the better! That'll make it go away!

Re: Black in spirit?
 

no i dont think so it would keep the ignorant people being racist continuing to do what they do maybe some sort of educating to those that are racist would help


not everyone would want to intermarry especially those who are racist

Re: Black in spirit?
 

I know, It was just wishful thinking. Then all we would have to worry about is geography and religion:mis:

Re: Black in spirit?
 

please lets NOT go there :walk:

Re: Black in spirit?
 

Yes. I lived in Oxford for a while almost 3 years ago and anyone from that area will know of Cowley Road. I took a turning off it whilst totally lost and pulled up to read my street map. A group of Asian youths came over to my car and asked what I doing there and I explained I was lost. They seemed to accept that but told me to go on my way as 'people like me' weren't welcome around there and if I ever showed my face there again...well, work it out.

I later went to the local police station, they took a statement and asked if I'd recognise any of them again. When I told them I probably wouldn't be able to, they said they'd keep it on file but told me there would be little they could do.

I get the impression that had the races been reversed, the police response would have been different.

Re: Black in spirit?
 

Unfortunetly not!

There are reasons why people challenge racism.... to make it go away...or rather to make people more aware of the issues around it.

Re: Black in spirit?
 

Imagine situations like that happened to you all the time? Not just the once!

Re: Black in spirit?
 

Yes, it would happen all the time if I ventured down there again. Your point being? That it's more frequent when the victim is black? Er yeah, we've kind of moved on from that now. Please address the issue in hand.

Re: Black in spirit?
 

Ok then ...... :erm:

Re: Black in spirit?
 

Ok then.......tell me what "white in spirit" means?

Re: Black in spirit?
 

From that reply (and others) it would appear that you have little time or interest for incidents of racism when the victim is white.

edit: if you'd be so kind as to address my issues first as requested, I shall reply to yours.

Re: Black in spirit?
 

there are areas of the uk where certain races are not welcome and thats not something that has spung up overnight

well we know the police they do have ineptness in the force they are only bothered about serious offences

im guessing the reason they didnt act was because it was an 'idle' threat not a serious one if someone did lay a finger on you so to speak then it would have been more serious

i too have been on the recieving end of racism in various ways although i have never been physically threatened i just procced to my normal life no one can stop me from going somewhere in my own town just because they im wierd or 'diffarent'

actually i had an issue when i went out for a bit just now :rolleyes:

Re: Black in spirit?
 

I dont understand? I thought I had!

Re: Black in spirit?
 

Nope.

Re: Black in spirit?
 

Well help me out a little here Russ.......what do you want me to address?