Muslims to march in London
 

link

I'm puzzled. How are Muslims here being made to feel like 2nd class citizens? The cartoons were published in Denmark, Muslim bombers have targeted commuters in London and Muslims have marched here with blatantly anti-west and derogatory banners and yet UK Muslims are the hard done by ones? :confused:
It seems to me that they have a persecution complex........

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Anyone else feel slightly annoyed when minorities claim they want equality when their actions indicate they want 'superiority'?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I always thought that white people in the uk are treated like 5th class citizens? I'd love to be treated like a 2nd class citizen :D

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

All I can say is I agree with the above statements.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Yep. Still I wonder what the police would do if there was a counter demonstration for freedom of speech with banners showing the cartoons :scratch:

I'd be willing the bet the Muslim march wouldn't be re-routed or have the banners confiscated.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

You're joking of course :erm: there is no way on earth any demo in favour of free speech against these publications would be permitted, let alone a 'counter' one at the same time or place. :rolleyes: The law doesn't allow 'whitey' to demonstrate (or complain even). :dozey:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

The way I see this is its a show, showing that they "can" do what they like. I am beginning to wonder just who is the minority here.

I remember when the Glaziers visited Man U ground for the first time and the fans it seem to me to be sat peacefully blockading the road in protest and what happened, oh yes the police practically ran over any that was left after they stormed in thrashing thier battons around.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Dam well said :tu:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I posted this not to 'have a go' at Muslims as such but to get your thoughts on why they feel persecuted here since it's their side that spouts off at our morals, blows us up etc......:confused: I just don't get it :shrug: :(

---------- Post added at 10:57 ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 ----------

ty :)

---------- Post added at 11:03 ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 ----------

Hang on a mo........The Danes publish some cartoons and the Muslim community throws a worldwide wobbly........yet when 9/11 & 7/7 & Madrid & all the other atrocities happened I don't recall 100k Muslims marching in london to show their disgust at what was being done in their name. :dozey:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Nope when 9/11 happened they blatantly threatened on national TV that if a muslim brother is attacked anywhere in the world, all muslims worldwide will see it as an attack on all muslims.

Well we can allways march with a similar population percentage (in groups of 11 people or less or course) waiving placards of, well even "death to positive discrimination" would be more civil than most of the last placards seen.

I can really only see one main reason behind this, as its not even a problem that occured here, and that is these 100,000 have no desire to be moderate and in fact wish to stir as much tension as possible, however peacefull this event remains they know full well what they are doing.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

No ... but quite a few *celebrated* it ... does that count ?? :rolleyes:

You'd think if there was such an underbelly of disgust at the current over reaction by *some* muslims (such as has been indicated in the media), this majority of *reasonable muslims* would organise a rally against the demos. :erm:

Nah .. perhaps not. :dozey:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

There'll just be some cleric making a press statement against the rally... as if that will calm things down at all!

And I get the feeling that Hamza's supporters will be out in force too.... and they will quake in their boots (sandals?) when another cleric makes his press statement...

The Police appear to let them get away with almost anything... are they AFRAID of them? They don't seem afraid to bash a few white heads.....

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Not least some of last weekends protesters....

Thats also what I'm confused about--we are constantly told by our press and 'moderate muslims' that they are being misrepresented by a minority of nutcases in their midst. Are we to assume that the 100 000 marchers next weekend are some of that minority-since they are marching because of some cartoons that weren't even published here. Because if that 100k are the majority moderates then why weren't they out marching after 9/11 etc?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Oh well at least Tescos will tell you that nuts do definatly have nuts in them :D

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

It seems to be having that effect, however.

Not that I'd worry about that unduly, I don't think that's avoidable atm.
Maybe it has nothing to do with whether they are 'persecuted' here or not. After all, this has erupted all over the world, whether there was publication or not.

It is quite clear that Muslims everywhere are saying they have been 'insulted' - I wouldn't be surprised if there were even those who haven't seen the cartoons who would still claim to have been insulted!

Attacks have been made on innocent people in many places, based on nothing more than their nationality, race or religion - because they certainly had nothing to do with the cartoons or their publication.

But since the cartoons were published within the freedom of speech (FoS) right, I suppose that Muslims have decided that everyone from a country that supports FoS are guilty by association. (Except any Muslims in those countries, even those born there, of course.)

We have had a number of clashes in recent years between the values, ethics and beliefs of 'the West' vs. those of Muslims. Some of these have seemed trivial (e.g. issues of dress), but now we have a direct confrontation between one of the fundamental rights of our democracies and one of the many faiths that coexist here.

Any one faith making such a challenge should be opposed, otherwise we'll descend into theocracy - history is already awash with blood spilt to separate church and state across Europe, so a return to a situation where any religion holds sway in that way is unacceptable.

Considering the many objections that Muslims seem to have to the way Western societies function, why are they here? If they want their religion to have primacy in their lives, to have it rule their every waking (and sleeping) moment, then why aren't they all rushing to Iran or Saudi? There, they could be assured of the presence of Sharia law. Comforted in the knowledge that should they step out of line, then a whipping, stoning or beheading is not far away.

We cannot go any further to adjust our societies specifically to their demands. Not ever, but certainly not while we are faced with violent protest and terrorism as the ever present threat that they are today.

There have been few, if any, significant changes required to accomodate a vast range of faiths in this country. We have been able to satirise, make fun of and ridicule just about every one of them - until now.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I don't get this - in the aftermath of 9/11, some sources in America started attacking Islam. Viral joke emails circulated around the world about Islam, the Taliban, Afganistan etc yet I don't remember any mass demonstrations like this over the comments which were made back then.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Just a thought ..... could it be because they actually agree with it / them ?? :erm:

Perish the thought. :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 11:43 ---------- Previous post was at 11:40 ----------

Maybe it would have been too embarrassing to complain about reasonable and natural reaction to *their* atrocities ?? ;)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I suspect they had enough sense to lay low at that time......

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

One thing that we have to remember though (and I'm not condoning any potential violence etc here), is that representations of God aren't forbidden in Christianity. In fact, there's an argument to say that Christianity is grounded in symbolism, with physical representations of the Cross etc.

However, if representations of Mohammed are expressly forbidden within Islam, then I can understand where the height of feeling is coming from (again, this doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with it). Also, people have used the fact that freedom of speech is enshrined in the Western world - don't forget that freedom of expression is also part of the Western world so, as such, why shouldn't a demonstration be allowed? Provided that it is a peaceful demo, no laws are being broken...

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Thats what I am wondering......because it all seems a little odd to me how they are willing to get up in arms about cartoons but not at atrocities done in the name of their religion.....or am I wrong/missing something here?:confused:

---------- Post added at 11:49 ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 ----------

fair enough but surely a greater insult was done to their religion by the numerous atrocities around the world.....why haven't they marched like this about those?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Just to wind you up more:

:shocked:

Responses here.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Yanks, don't you just love them :dozey:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

:rofl: :rofl:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

That's the pot calling the kettle black.

I suppose some Americans rather like the idea that, for the moment, the spotlight is off them.

Not sure what they think we'll do about, though. Maybe some will expect/hope that now the Europeans, previously less than keen to go to war, will suddenly decide to join the fray with more enthusiasm. Not just yet.
But they might be much less vocal in their opposition from now on.

P.S. Saw a great quote today:
:)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Ah yes, but an unjust war's still an unjust war ;)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

:doh:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Technically they are, it is I believe one of the commandmants, altho its more aligned to worshiping items it really depends on how its interpreted.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Seconded! :rolleyes:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

This is 90% hysteria. A very large game of Chinese Whispers that has struck a sore point and has been amplified by the media.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Depends on whom your comment is aimed at ?

Us who feel this is a major over reaction by muslims, or the muslims over reaction to some cartoons ??? :erm:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Is this all thye are kicking off about

pls see pic

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

No....:confused:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

well it is a picture of Mohammed !!!

I though that is what all the fuss was about

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

What did that guy say on the news the other day? He won't be happy till the black flag of islam is flying over Downing Street.:Yikes: :Yikes: :Yikes: That will be the day when our great country dies.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

You've done it now.......they are probably going to laya fatwah on CF now :erm: :p: :D

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

If it is, then they have lots more pictures to complain about http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_i...lamic_mo_full/

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Many of the things being said in this thread now are somewhat parallel to what I have said in the past, the only difference is that this time no one is being called racist!

The whole protest situation shows a double standard by the police and government, they are being very "racist" by letting a certain group get away with this. We cannot get away from the fact that muslims have always considered themselves to be better than non-muslims, that applies to both the protesting muslims and the so called good muslims.

At the end of the day a muslim who is not a trouble maker is more likely to side up (possibly not say as such) with a muslim instead of a non-muslim. We see religious brainwashed fundamentalists yet again looking for any excuse to cause trouble with the west. They target and protest away from the source of the original issue and tar all from the west with the same brush, whilst we are asked to believe there are "good" and "bad" muslims.

Why should we accept the good or bad if they consider us all the same. Has anyone ever heard them come out and say there are good and bad white people?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Nice link. I must admit to being mystified at that as well. Why are some depictions of Mohammed ok and not others?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

If they're gonna march in Landon, could they just not keep going on down to Dover where the boats are?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I love my country, it pains me to see people wanting to destroy our way of life.

I think the levellers summed it up in this song.

England My Home

You gave me my birth
Then you made me pay
What is it worth
Cast me away
You've really done it now
Dying in my arms
You stand here with nothing
But you've still got english charm

Oh England, you're my home
My heart's heart
Crashing thunder of love
You're a place of the poor
Open wound
The lost rites of love

You cut your own throat
Then you let it bleed
Misleading your people
From what they all need
Roots forgotten
That's what we all say
But what does it matter
You're the USA

Why is it England
I feel like rubbish on your streets
Why is it when I care
If feel incomplete
Why does our future seem
Such a feat
When will our consciousness
Finally meet

Oh, whatever happened to
My green and pleasant land

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Yup. :tu:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Hey let's not leave Wales out!

Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau

Mae hen wlad fy nhadau yn annwyl i mi,
Gwlad beirdd a chantorion, enwogion o fri;
Ei gwrol ryfelwyr, gwladgarwyr tra mad,
Tros ryddid collasant eu gwaed.

Gwlad, gwlad, pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad,
Tra môr yn fur
I'r bur hoffbau,
O bydded i'r heniaith barhau.

Hen Gymru fynyddig, paradwys y bardd,
Pob dyffryn, pob clogwyn, i'm golwg sydd hardd;
Trwy deimlad gwladgarol, mor swynol yw si
Ei nentydd, afonydd, i mi.

Os treisiodd y gelyn fy ngwlad dan ei droed,
Mae hen iaith y Gymry mor fyw ag erioed,
Ni luddiwyd yr awen gan erchyll law brad,
Na thelyn berseiniol fy ngwlad.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I dont think anymore really needs saying now does it, its not just government double standards. I expect this is going to escalate in a rapid way now.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

whilst i agree that many muslims are going over the top in terms of wanting literal blood for whats happened might i add that french satirical magazine republished the pictures including a new sketch.

is it right or wrong ?

however:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4674864.stm

you read these things for yourselves, im not defending anyone, all im saying is that its a mockery of religion, regulars on here know me as intolerant of religion but i would never go to the depths that the danish and other newspapers have, muslims are touchy enough already, due to 9/11.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

As a fence-sitter myself: I think that some of the sentiments in this thread derive from the fact that it's the western world that is touchy, (but in general rather restrained) following 9/11, Bali, Madrid, London. The reaction to this 'incident' is not helping...

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Islam is a peaceful religon, however muslims as people are very intolerant, will stick by there own as Escapee has stated.

muslim said to me:

"i would kill my own children if i had to protect mohammad he means more to me then my children and if i had to i would "

and this guy is not even fanatical.

strong faiths can sway a human beings heart in so many ways :Yikes:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Does that prohibit images of Jesus too then? If so, why aren't they complaining (for want of a better word) about images like the ones returned from a Google image search like
http://images.google.co.uk/images?so...ol&sa=N&tab=wi

Perhaps the Christians should rise up and stone to death the authors of such images :rolleyes:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

:erm: .....are you sure that he's not fanatical? :disturbd:
If thats a non-fanatical muslim then we are in deep sh*t in the west.....

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I still think a lot of people are missing the point as to why this has offended muslims around the world. Please note that before I try and explain again I donot agree with the violent demonstrations that have taken place and the nature of the placards on display be it in the UK or the rest of the world. Addionally groups including the MCB and other representative bodies have stated that such demonstrations are against the guidelines of Islam, and even said that the police should have done more to deal with the placard bearers.

Right.... as a muslim the Prophet is very dear to me. However if someone choses to depict the Prophet in a picture/painting/cartoon based on a description of him that they've read in a Hadith, or other narration then to me thats fine. After all I can't stop you doing that, and if there is any punishment to be derived from you doing so thats between you and God/Allah whatever you want to call Him. However when someone draws a cartoon that makes a mockery of the characteristics of what we as muslims, belkieve to be the most important man ever for us muslims, a man with the most perfect characteristics and traits, then that is where I get offended. I don't think there was any need for that, except to cause offence. Furtehr more to characterise the Prophet as a bomb in a turban wearing person does nothing to promote any good relations between non muslims and muslims in the world today. Many mulsims feel that these cartoons have been published to antagonise muslims, and to provoke the extremists into the actiopns we are seeing today.

For those who say that if we dont like Freedom of speech we should go back to the middle east or 'our own countries' well for a lot of muslims in the UK today Britain is where they're from. Its not that we dont like freedom of speech or dont agree with it, but that we feel it should be used with a bit of respect.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

The reason this country is bending over backward to appease muslims is because Blair wants the muslim vote. :erm:

Trouble is it is a double edged sword: Blair sucks up to muslims, muslims join Labour, muslims get elected in ever more muslim wards, pass more pro muslim laws, muslim flag over Westminster. :erm:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

And the point I've been trying to make is Christians have had to put up with things like that for years. It's not right, but perhaps a little thick-skin is needed.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Lovely...
Eh, by my definition, the statement above makes him fanatical.

---------- Post added at 09:20 ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 ----------

Because then they'd have to admit that their hatred of all thing christian/jewish is actually in direct conflict with Islam. Hypocrites.
No. Because that kind of reaction is just insane.

I see it like this: An all-powerful God isn't going to get troubled by a few pictures. Furthermore, the allmighty should be more than capable of looking out for himself. The insult is in believing that God is so fragile that a picture could do any harm.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Russ, I agree with what you say about thick skinnedness is required. The thing is in the UK anyway, it has been a very small minority(maybe under 200) that marched with offensive placards and chants the other week. As for the march planned for, is it tomorrow or the following week?, I do know that the organisers are requesting a peaceful demonstration. However the reality is that some idiots will do their best to hijack the good intentions of the majority of demonstrators and we will see what happens. What I find a bit sad is that there are many views on here which assume that all mulsims are like that. I honestly dont see how anyone can draw that conclusion from what you've seen so far, and feel its only just said out of stupidity or some sort of bigotted outlook

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

So you believe that, if another party was in power, they wouldn't want the Muslim vote?

IMO, and as I've said before, what makes the UK such a good place to live is the fact that we are multi-cultural - any number of people from differing cultures have settled here and, as a result, have been integrated into our communitys and culture, making the UK a more rounded society.

I agree that there is a higher likelihood of Muslims being elected in areas where there is a higher proportion of Muslim voters - however, I don't agree that there would be an increase in 'pro-Muslim' laws (whatever the hell they are!). Don't forget that a large amount of Muslims still live in the poorer areas of the country - any law that is passed that would benefit them would also benefit the poorer sections of the non-Muslim communitys.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

crap.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Unfortunately muhammed with a bomb is the way a large proportion of the west percieve muslims, especially after 9/11, 7/7 etc, etc, etc. and current goings on serve only to confirm that view.

I think you may be right that they were published to cause offence. Maybe that would be in retaliation to the offence caused by 9/11, 7/7, etc, etc, etc, the only difference is that cartoons don't kill people, leave children with no mothers and fathers, that sort of thing !!

Thing is that Islam is always described as a peaceful faith, but I have never ever seen a march or other organised event by muslims in support of that view but they can get a violent rabble together in hours to condemn the west.

Respect is earned not bullied.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

The thing is that if Muslims hadn't acted as depicted in the cartoons then the cartoons wouldn't/couldn't exist. The cartoons are a mirror held up to reflect satirically the actions of Muslims.:shrug:
Perhaps non-muslims in the west would stop printing cartoons about Muslims/Mohamed if Muslims stopped suicide bombing etc....the cartoons are a reaction to past events.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Good to see you're still able to put a well-reasoned argument forward then :rolleyes:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I agree the imagery is insensitive in the particular case of representing the Prophet in such a way, but if Muslims stopped using the 'suicide bomb' as a tactic, perhaps there would be more tolerance & understanding, and it wouldn't have arisen.

Many westerners feel antagonised by being blown up by fanatics and do not understand how killing ones fellow man is justified, while a drawing is not.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

of course.i know bull sh*t when i see it.

integrated into our community's my *rse,they look after there own.always have always will.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

If there's going to be as many as has been suggested, then I suspect that it wil be very hard to ensure it remains as planned. But as you said - we'll see what happens.
Like what? In what way are we generalising that is invalid?

Even you have mentioned being offended. Tell me, which of these cartoons is such a problem? Any specific one, all, some? Because I think they're mostly lame - several avoid depicting Muhammed anyway.
We wouldn't dare draw anything, considering the trouble we might get into...
Yeah. We're all dumb, have no understanding of any of the issues and can only see our own view of things.

Let's check up a definition of the word 'bigot':
Sounds to me like that could just as well apply to a large number of Muslims too.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Yes they would .. that is my point, it is the legislators and governers from their ivory towers whomever they may be who are chasing the muslim vote. After all it is the fastest growing section in our community !!

I disagree, many of the people we are discussing have not integrated and do not accept our satire and humour which is exactly why we are seeing the present troubles. UK is a divided society.

The race and religious hate laws are 'muslim' laws. They do not protect whites from racial or religious attack simply because the law does not seem to recognise that whites can be racially attacked ??

For example just stop and think if it was the BNP rioting and marching against some perceived insult, what would have been the police reaction. A bit more than a photo opportunity ?? :disturbd:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

So you wouldn't look after 'your own' then? Of course, if you had your way, I suppose that they'd all be shipped back to the Middle East? Of course, then some poor white fellow would have to do all the crappy jobs that he thinks are beneath him.

Still, don't let economics (or, in fact, any sort of knowledge) get in the way of a good rant, eh?

---------- Post added at 09:54 ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 ----------

It's fine that you disagree - that's what the forum's all about :)

I have to say that, whereas some Muslims may not have integrated, the vast majority have - as has been said a number oftimes (in a number of threads), most Muslims (and Afro-Caribbeans etc) are 2nd or 3rd generation British now anyway, and are perfectly willing to abide by UK laws etc. Unfortunately, there are members of Muslims communitys who aren't willing to, just as their are huge numbers of the 'traditional' white communitys who aren't :shrug:

I don't think that the UK is a divided society - I understand why people may think that but, IMO, the majority of communitys / cultures are well-integrated.


The BNP are actually a radical party - just as some Muslims may want to make the UK an Islamic country, the BNP want to make sure that there is no 'ethnic' minority present at all. I aree that the police reaction may have been different, but don't forget that white people are just as capable of violence as Muslims.

Anyway, it was only last week that Nick Griffin and the other guy (whose name escapes me) were found not guilty of inciting racial tension - that's an example of how the justice system can work in favour of someone who I would say was undesirable :shrug:

As ever, just my opinion :)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I'm not sure herbert meant it quite that literally. It is not speaking out against this latest (or indeed any) round of idiocy that gives rise to feelings of them 'sticking together'.

Have you ever asked the poor white fellow if he wants that 'crappy' job. Maybe he can't get it because our laws favour immigrants to get it or the shop / restaraunt owner / manager is muslim and only employs other muslims (sticking together). (Have you ever seen a asian shop / restaraunt employ whites ?)

Ah the old 'economics', we need immigrants to prop up our failing pension schemes, argument !

B*llocks. :rolleyes:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

here we go again,all the muslims seem to do is work in crappy jobs,live in crappy housing in your world.
thats what i mean about bullsh*t.
and yes i would have them all shipped back to the middle east including the ones born in this country.kick the lot of them out and close the gates,this country would be a lot safer without them.
and i'm sick and tired of hearing and seeing this country needs them.why does it,it never needed them before why does it need them now.if they were all to leave this country tomorrow this country would still carry on.

---------- Post added at 09:57 ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 ----------

nice one basa.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Ah, far-right politics are still alive and well in the UK then :rolleyes:

If you actually raised your blinkered eyes from inspecting your own navel for a moment, you may care to look back and see that the UK invited members of many different cultures to work in the UK after the war, as there wasn't actually the manpower available to keep the economy running. As a result, we now have black / asian / muslim / whatever members of the population who are just as British as you are.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

if i remember right it wasn't the uk who invited different cultures over after the war,it was london transport that invited them over because there was a shortage of bus drivers.
never were the people of this country asked if they wanted them here.
they are british in name only,i'm true british.british by birthright british by ancestory.
there black british/asian british/muslim british. as i said british in name only.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Absolutely, we asked for help after the Second World War, we asked for help when setting up the NHS (hence the large number of 'Asian' doctors) and we also had large numbers of British passport holders from previous Commonwealth countries come over when they were expelled from Uganda.

A large proportion of our multiculturalism is due to our colonial past, we reaped the benefit of exploiting the world, then, and now, to an extent, we are 'paying' for it.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

How far back to you go then for the people to be kicked out?

Anyone with Irish blood? How about Viking blood? They were immigrants (albeit not in the traditional way) but they interbred with the 'british' people.

Kick them all out as well?

It'll be very lonely then for the few 'pure' brits left.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

lol.........not wrong there! I was speaking to an Indian chap last week about Indian call centers and I was the one defending them whereas he was really slagging them off (in quite a racist way) :disturbd:

---------- Post added at 10:21 ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 ----------

I've always felt that to be unfair.....this generation didn't exploit the empire/use the slave trade......why should we pay for the misdeeds of those who went before us? But thats a topic for another thread.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

What? Wasn't London Transport part of the UK then? Wouldn't they have had to go through the government of the day to get it allowed. Anyway, for some strange reason, you've managed to prove my point that there was a shortage of skilled workers. Mind you, how you're going to explain the presence of black and asian families being in Birmingham and Manchester directly after the war should be interesting - I shouldn't think that had anything to do with London Transport.

Oh, and as for you being 'true' British? I've said it before - chances are that, if you're so sure of your ancestry going back hundreds of years, you're probably French. Go figure.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

The history of the people of the British Isles suggests that they died long ago - the present population is almost entirely a mix of the native and the invaders.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

:rolleyes:

Agreed and accepted, but..........

It is not immigration that is the problem, it is the sheer numbers now that is the problem. Has no one ever heard of 'optimum population' ?? I don't agree we still need immigrant workers. I do not accept they make a positive economic contribution because those fugures do not include the fact that the infrastructure of the UK is breaking down under the strain. Many bring health problems or mini crime waves. TB is on the increase and as we have seen many are into organised crime.

On top of that we now have rioting over cartoons ffs !!

How bad does it have to get before we realise enough is enough.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

This thread looks like its degenrating into Muslims Vs Brits (and people fail to see that a large amount of muslims in the Uk are actually born here. making them British) or Kick Out The Muslims or Im Afraid The Mulsims will take over parliament and establ;ish Khalifah in the UK.....

What I have been tryinf to argue/debate/explain in this thread and the other one relating to pictures, apart from why offence has been caused, is that the rioters are a small minority of islam and not a representation of the muslim faith in general. if we look atr it from the placards displayed on the demo in London, 200 idiots do not represent the muslim faith in the UK, and nor do groups such as Hizbut Tahir or Al Majouroon.

As for condemnation of 9/11; Madrid; London bombings, all the mainstream muslim representatives in the UK have condemned such action. Just because it didnt appear on the front page of the Sun or the Daily Mail does not mean it didnt happen.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Not Brits V Muslim, it's more a muslim *culture / attitude* V Brit *culture / attitude*.

Oh heck ... we're going get into that "what is British culture now ! :argue:

:Sprint:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Ah but remember, as I was told by a member of this site, they don't integrate in to our communities not because they want to stick with their 'own', it's because we shun them from our 'communities' :rolleyes:

Don't forget, this is no such thing as 'British culture' anymore :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Please don't get the idea we are into 'Muslim bashing', Saaf, for myself I am really grateful for you participating in these discussions & providing a voice of reason on behalf of your faith.

To be honest, from a personal perspective, while I admit I don't fully understand the issue of imagery & the Prophet, neither do I consider the religious beliefs of terrorists to be the main issue in how I percieve them. An idiot with a bomb is just as dangerous whether he be Muslim, Jew or Christian.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

But their condemnation of some cartoons seems to be much more vocal than their condemnation of thousands of deaths and numerous worldwide atrocities.....or am I wrong?

---------- Post added at 11:52 ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 ----------

:tu:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

it dosnt matter what you are there are nutters everywhere and have been since we crawled out of the swamp..
ive seen old chaps saying kick the muslims out wasnt like this in our day safe to walk the streets none of these muslim nutters..
i simply reply - in your day you had a rather mad austrian chap chopping up jews and killing anyone without blue eyes i fail to see how it was much better.

every generation there is a something going on.
we only just got rid of the ira - muslims just happen to be next on the list and in the medias eye..

personally - yes i do think they are a bunch of loons but im also sure some of them are nice, the world would be a better place if the middle east wasnt around, im very suprised no one has nuked anyone yet
im also happy denmark is getting some flack, for once it isnt us.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Maybe Im wrong but I think the MCB and other muslim organisations did take a full page ad out in the national press following 9/11, condemming what had happened. (If im wrong it must have been something else im thinking about). I do recall seeing a lot of organisations condemming the event on TV and in other media.

Ok, there might not have been a demonstration by muslims after 9/11 but I didnt see one by non muslims either, so are we saying they (the non muslims)were happy for it to happen too? What Im trying to get at is that because there was a lack of a demo after 9/11 or 7/7, a lot of people are assuming all muslims were ok with the terrorist acts. I do no think thats a reasonable argument.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Actually, it was the scenes of cheering people (Muslims, I gather), even as people were falling to their deaths from the towers, that incensed me.

And these were not parades of extremists - these were scenes filmed all over the Muslim world, in the streets, shops and cafes. So, unless the percentage of extremists is VERY high, it is reasonable to assume these were 'ordinary' Muslims.

I agree that a demo by Muslims against those specific terrorist acts would be unreasonable to expect. Very much as it's unreasonable for them to have a demo now about a few cartoons. The cartoons did not kill anyone, unlike the unrest caused by millitant Muslims, which has now claimed at least a dozen lives.

It is utter madness.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

They did but thats not the same as 100 000 marching in London.......or going ballistic all over the world is it?

We don't tend to do things like that.... No, I'm not assuming all muslims were ok with the atrocities (far from it) I'm just pointing out that I think it's odd that so many are throwing their toys out of the pram over a few cartoons while doing nothing of the sort over suicide attacks done in the name of their religion (that we are told they all find abhorrent) ....it's just a little odd.....priorities and all that.....

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

When you say "we don't tend to do things like that..." what we are you referring to? If its the non muslim British people you're referring too then Ive seen plenty of this category in lots of demos.... Anti Poll Tax, Stop The War , Anti Racism to name but a few. Or is it the 'we' that you are referinng to those people that just tend to agree on a war on terror in which hundreds of thousands of innocents lives are lost, and say well thats ok, it will stop another 9/11.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

What? 100 000 marching in London alone with worldwide demonstrations (with anti arab banners)/killings/arson? :disturbd: Thats what I was referring to when I said 'we don't do things like that'....

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Ok, so have we seen 100,000 muslims marching in London to date? The last major demo where I saw a large amount of muslims was the Stop the War one. Even there according to police figures there were no more than a copuple of 100k in total, of which I dont feel over half were muslims.

Similarly this Sunday I do not expect to see anywhere near 100k muslims marching through London, and like I said I just hope its not hijacked by some idiots anyway.

By applying the same argument and reasoning in earlier posts when its implied that if muslims dont demo against Sept 11, Madrid and 7/7, they are happy with such activities, then I can equally say that those who dont go on Anti Racism marches like racism. Its a stupid argument/basis for reaching that conclusion isnt it. Then its said well that argument can apply to muslims because they are always or very happy to go on demos , burning down embassies , carrying hate filled placards etc etc. Well no ones burned an embassy in the UK to date over this, and the placard bearers amounted to less than a couple of 100. Representaive of the muslim population in the UK? I think not.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Thats what they are predicting....

ahem.....I have been at pains to point out that I don't think that they are happy with such activities. I am merely wondering if muslims in this country (and worldwide) have their priorities right since we hardly saw any toys chucked out of prams over the bombings etc.....while they do appear to have gone off the deep end over cartoons....

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Response from the muslim world following the 9/11 bombings can be found here:

http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I understand what you are trying to say, but I have to agree it doesn't entirely make sense.

I think what you're trying to compare is the Muslim reaction against 9/11 and the current furore over the cartoons.

In the wake of 9/11 there were reactions from Muslims (mostly those living in Western liberal democracies) against the atrocity. I recall the newspaper 'advert' and a few other shows of solidarity.

By comparison, this episode of the cartoons has seen a huge outpouring of anger from the same people. I think what Ramrod is saying that he sees the current outcry as a far louder protest than anything that followed 9/11

I tend to agree. It suggests that offending Muslims with a cartoon is a bigger issue to them than the massacre of 2000+ people.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

SIGH...The whole cartoon thing has totally been blown out of proportion. I mean..really its just a case that someone did somehting that someone else didn't like...Can people just not GET ALONG!...live and let live and all that. Okay so it wasn't to everyones liking that these cartoons were published but I also don't think it should merit opening the flood gates for violent demonstrations....

If there were no organised religion then this wouldn't be happening!!!
I also sence that I am not the only one that is a little ****ed off with the minority wanting superiority. I thought the whole point of religions was to promote equality?...One final comment....SIGH!

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

im sure of it, i have known this guy for about three years now consistently and hes just your average guy, doing his business.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I'm sure that the millions of factions of various forms of theism that would exist in the place of 'organised religion' would have found plenty of things to argue about, and even more to get violent about.

The religion is not to blame, it is the men(/women) that abuse their positions of authority by corrupting the ideals of the religions.

Fundamentally Christians, Jews and Muslims should be more like brethren, rather than 'opponents'. Their religions share so much history and so many of the ideals that promote peaceful co-existence. Yet, for some reason, there is a schism between them that threatens everyone.

While there are plenty of theological differences between Jews and Christians, they have found a way to set those aside and to coexist (relatively) peacefully for quite a long time now.

At the same time, Muslims seem to have moved further and further away from the common ground they could occupy with the 'people of the book'.

In fact, if they were as vehement about following the Koran's directions in this respect as they are in their fervour for following the Hadith (i.e. NOT a direction from the Koran) about imagery, we'd all be a lot better off - including Muslims.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Thank you for that, thats a bit more like it! I'm paticularily impressed by the "1 million Palestinian students in the Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, stood five minutes in silence to express their solidarity with the hundreds of American children who have been struck by this tragedy" :tu: :)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Some religions however contain many brainwashed followers, some of these can be persuaded to go to any lengths in the name of religion. I agree these fanatics would find another way of causing trouble if religion didn't exist, but these fanatics have a huge target audience amongst muslim followers.

Although non-religious people like myself are usually a bit tougher to convice there are virgins waiting in heaven for me, if I strap a bomb to my body and kill some westerners. To start with if you dont believe heaven or hell exists, its a waste of time trying to tempt me with virgins.

It's all down to religions brainwashing people and the fanatics taking advantage.

I will expect a flaming for my sensible view on religion!

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

They may not be representative of the faith as a whole, I do wuite agree, but as a member of that faith they are shaking their responsibility to the faith and their co muslims by behaving like a bunch of.....animals.

And it has come down to brits V muslims, thats got more to do with the attitude of some of the marchers than it has with many of the brits.
We are not perfect, yet why should I stand back and not voice my concern, my oppinions and my feelings?
If I dont like them I dont like them, I say them, it could be it, her, him, species, religion basically whatever. I do not likew the attitude of some perhaps a high proportion of muslims in this country, purely because they have no desire, no inclination to even accept or understand our ways.
But in return thjey experct us to alter our behaviour to accomdate them.
To the majority of brits we dont have to do anyhting to accomodate them, we just go about our business as usual.

I've never personally met anyone I hate, many I dislike, many I get angered at, especially when they shove you out of the way in a supermarket, I will ask them where their manners are....or shove them back, but I would do that to anyone.

The very fact they want to march and cause further disruption shows they dont care how the rest of the country see's them, they will carry on regardless and expect no repercussions form it because they are muslims and any repercussion would obviously be the racist white majority attacking islam.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Yup. My brother and I used to work for one of the local Indian takeaways. Guess what religion the owners were.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I have an opinion on this because my girlfriend is Asian (not Muslim though)and works for the health service, she will tell you that she works for the health service because so many of the lazy white nurses are off on the sick.
On the other hand she laughs when the liberals say people like her are here to help the economy, she will tell you straight "I am here to earn lots of money and buy property back home the same as all my collegues"

There are however some things for them that are not fair, she has been paying NI for the three years she has been here. the unfair bit is that she has no entitlement to NI benefits if she is out of work, nor does she officially have entitlement to sick pay. Although she will then say that filipinos dont call sick just cos they feel like a day off.

I do not pidgeon hole Asian and Muslim, because Asian does not neccesarily mean Muslim and Muslim doesnt always mean trouble. I do however consider that when backs are against the wall, Muslims good and bad will stick together instead of siding up with a white western person.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

.....and there is nothing wrong with that, imo we are genetically programmed to act like that.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Doesnt look like its mainly peacuful expression to me.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4692518.stm

Dont hold out much hope for tomorrows march remaining so either, not that it should even go ahead anyway. Theres been one, its been heard, end of, nope I doubt it.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Good for you! I try not to as well....but many wouldn't--through no fault of their own.....human nature.