ntl Service Charges new!
 

I looked for other threads but couldn't find one.

Information on ntl Service Charges


http://www.home.ntl.com/page/charges


Future posts will cost you all a pound each.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

good info :tu:

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

That's scandalous! I liked the bit about being charged £4 for removing a service - 'downgrade charge'. Anyone thinking of getting rid of any ntl services had better do it quickly before they bring these charges in!

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

:wtf: erm right good way to loose a customer completely IMO. If you've subscribed for over 12 months surely you are entitled to cancel with one months notice.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I had a feeling NTL would self destruct at some point, However i had no idea it would be this quick. Whoever they have employed to think this up might be the same person that turned down the Beatles. :Yikes:

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I think NTL may well be shooting themselves in the foot with this new set of charges. Waiving the fee on a first instance of a request and charging for subsequent changes would have been a more sensible option.
Surely after 12 months on your contract they should drop the fee totally if you want to end a service? From that information they are charging you for stopping using their service which makes no sense.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Obviously, it's to make people save themselves £4 a time and not cancel, and so keep them as ntl customers! :LOL: :rolleyes:

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

If ntl fails to show up or incorrectly bills we charge them!

At present 2 x no shows*
3 x wrong bills


Thats £ 72.00 billed as ' Mind Boggling Bad Service Charge'


*Left to go to Sky last year still charging

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

This is to stop the So called 10Mb users who won't ever get it unless they get a new 250 modem from dowongrading to a cheaper tarif.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I think they will rethink this once they realise it is cheaper for the customer to cancel all services...

I do agree this is scandalous. Is this even allowed? When I had NTL I had separate accounts for BB and telly/phone. Separate contracts as well IIRC. How can they charge you for ending the contract (outside 12 months)?

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

The first time they charge me £4 for "downgrading service" will be the last time, as they will be told bye bye. They really have lost the plot.

As for a £10 charge if an engineer calls and you are not home, that's fine as long as they give a reasonable estimate (am/pm) of when an engineer is expected and the engineer turns up in this timeframe - if he doesn't then I expect a £10 refund.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I agree - twice I have called an engineer and been told it's a pm callout - and twice I've had a card through the door when I've come home from work at lunchtime telling me 'You were not in when our engineer called' :mad:

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I'm sure NTL are deliberately doing this to actually lose customers. from what's been happening for the past several weeks, what with the £50 charge for changing your modem to recieve 10mb, all the faults users are having with BB, esspecially the 10mb, now this, I think someone at NTL is sat there dreaming up stupid ideas just to see how far they can go. how long can the NTL customer stand all this nonsense?

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Id expect a damn site more than £10 refunded for wasted time!

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

You won't be the only one! :tu:

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Think i'll be keeping a close eye on this,as if it doesn't change then the last day of this month i'll give them 28days notice for the tv/phone,

Sod being charged for downgrading,there haveing a laugh,but i suppose things were going to smoothly.

Bet the sky bosses are sat their laughing their heads off at the joker that came up with these prices,good way to lose custom if you ask me.:td:

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I don't agree with the charges in general, but if you read the webpage it doesn't mention charging for changing speeds on Broadband or the TV or phone package, only cancelling a service.

Why they can't do online itemised billing yet for nought is beyond me - that would save them money.

APS

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Thats right only for cancelling a service,but say you had to cut back a couple of months and let one of your services you go,your gonna get charged 4quid for saying look carnt afford it and rather than run a big bill up i carnt pay i'll have to end it,then they insult you by charging you.

Bloody madness,

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Does this mean that if your phone bill is less than £10 and you do not pay it (until it is over £10) as you are currently informed to do you will be hit by this charge?

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

might look harsh but there's no such thing as a free lunch like you say you can walk thats your choice but its got to make money other wise it will go tits up.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

That could happen sooner than they think!

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

£15 for a replacement remote?

You can get them on ebay for cheaper.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

wow the cheek of ntl to come and charge £25 for tuning a tv.

they will soon be raking in the cash as they are gonna charge £4 per service removed

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Does this mean if a customer calls to close their account and they have several services that they will charge them £4 for each service???

That can't be legal or everyone else would have implemented a charge like this long ago?

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Nothing wrong with that. It's an additional service that requires an 'engineer' visit.

Lose customers/cash more likely. I sure as hell wouldn't pay a company to stop providing a service that I'm paying for. They can't charge you for cancelling all services, so why would I pay for cancelling just one?

(after 12 months obviously, and when not purchased as a discounted package)

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I guess this is how they fund their emergency network upgrades to get 10meg up to par.

funny when I asked for my unitemised calls last month I got told they unretrievable.

If ntl own the equipment and it breaks then the customer pays for the replacement who legally owns that equipment?

I expect this will get them a lot for all the people pretending to have a modem fault to get a new 250.

Personally I am annoyed they are hitting current customers yet again, the install fee for new customer's is still free, and I find the downgrade charge ludicrous.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Does this Mean that they owe me a refund on all of the bills that I have not received!! the last bill by email was in may last year!! Following my query by the responstek bit on this board I did receive a 3 months of blank bill by snail mail!!

Ha sthe price reduced yet?

Andy

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

**Moved to ntl Billing & Installation forum**

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Just a couple of points from NTL's side of things here;

1; If a customer has requested a service visit and given a time of calling i.e 8:00-12:00, 12:00-16:00, 16:00-20:00 and then they are not there for the visit, why is it unjust to charge the customer for time wasting? I know it can go both ways but the number of No Access visits the engineers experience is chronic. If you are not there for the visit of British Gas or Electricity board then they charge you...

2; If you go out and buy a new television from Curry's, Dixon's or whoever they will insist on a fee for delivery and tuning it in. Why should NTL send out an engineer to tune your TV in for free? It cost's them to get the engineer to your house, should they just say "Well just so we keep customers we will spend £** on getting there and not bother getting anything back?" Is this good economics? I think not.

I know there are other things in there about down-grading and the likes, but the two points I raise are ones that I think are more than justified

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

A few points...

There are faults /customer service people to advise people how to tune in their 'new tv' many people refuse this service as they can't do it or cannot be bothered.

It costs far more than £25 to get a tech to your house to sort it out.

As for the £25 charge for attending a fault with customers equipment I think thats justified also, there are people who refuse to do any diagnosis with you on the phone.

I do think ntl should operate a system like sky, charge a install fee and make the equipment the customers responsibility after 12 months. I'm sure they would be happy to work with the faults guys if they thought they would get charged £70 to fix it.

At the end of the day people complain about anything and On balance free call outs to equipment is not offered by bt nor sky so ntl's service should be dearer as they are offering more.

Go on have a laugh tell your adsl supplier that your modem is faulty :) I'm sure they will tell you where you can buy one.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Just a thought - has anyone tried using the Data Protection Act to get details of itemised calls? I've used it with my bank to get copies of my statements (saved me paying £5 per statement)

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

That costs a tenner. (or maybe £15. I can't remember)

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I think the company has the right to charge a reasonable admin fee to provide you the details.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

The charge for cancelling services sounds like an Unfair Term under The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977. See http://www.dti.gov.uk/ccp/topics1/fa...rmsact1999.htm.

Any Lawyers out there?

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I think its seems a recent trend more than ever that NTL is going down the pan fast.

Hopefully another bout on Watchdog or some OFCOM on there asses may improve things alot.

Ive recently moved to a new area and ive already been approached three different times by different people regarding Free cable Tv if you get me, makes one wonder how many real subscribers are left on NTL, My eldest daughter was offered a Tv box for and 10mb at her school just yesterday £100 each.

i know personally it if wasnt for the 10mb service(im currently waiting on mates view of bulldog hes been on it now for 2 months, after NTL billed him for all 3 tiers of the internet for a year), i wouldnt give them a 2nd look now.

Its starting to look like NTL maybe in trouble, maybe theres more to the Telewest grab and all the recent changes thans out in the open..

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Rubbish.

The main reason for this is that there has been several different practises and policies over the years for work that the engineers do. This just gives a clear picture to everyone what to expect and how much it will cost.

In several cases the cost of the work done is far cheaper than the actual costs of doing it.

Try getting BT to move an extension for £25.00

As has been said many times before. Ntl isn't a charity.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

lol ..

I should of made myself clearer, some/most of those charges are a given, and are most likey still costing NTL atleast double im sure..

but i still standby the rest of my post, its only a opinion and we all know what they say about opinions...

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

lol they have lost the plot completely now

well i am on 3 for 30 deal and thought well they are starting to go the right way but no now they do this

well i wont be paying to down grade if they put up prices again i am off to sky

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Who'll quite happily charge you £65.00 if it gets a bit windy and blows your dish off course.
And will even more happily charge you if the equipment fails after the 1st year. :rolleyes:

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

you dont have to get bt to move extensions you can do them yourself

as ntl put in boxes they dont want touched your forced to have them come do it

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I'm quite sure my Gran would be happy to hear she can get down on her hands and knees and start re-wiring her house :rolleyes:

Amazing how Ntl can come out with charges that are, with one or two exceptions, the same or a reduction of previous charges and still undercut the competition by a large margin but are painted as evil and losing it by some people. :mad:

Honestly if you feel that badly about them you know what to do.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

You own all of the ntl extensions, you are not allowed to touch the master socket same as with bt.

In many cases ntl sockets are installed next to bt sockets so that the wireing can be swapped over and all your extentions work.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I have to say I agree with most of the charges, However the remote control is their property and is up to them to replace unless you brake it or loose it!

Don't even get me started on the £4 downgrade fee, That is just theft in my opinion!

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I too have no problem with the majority of these charges. However if they EVER try to charge me to down grade any of my services i will be off quicker that you can say BT.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

It does put you in a strong position to send them such an invoice and if they do not pay it roll it into a small claims court.
Send them the bill.

---------- Post added at 14:46 ---------- Previous post was at 14:44 ----------

What about usual wear and tear? They don't last for ever, and the oldest piece of hardware near my telly is the STB.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

If I understand it correctly, to enforce this on them you would have to propose a change in the contract between yourself and NTL - they, like the customer, presumably have the right to cancel the service if the new T&Cs are not acceptable.

However you would have a case to take to court, without making any statements about penalties or sending invoices, if they caused you financial loss by negligence on their part.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Agreed.
So if I cancel Disney (£5 a month) of my account they charge me £4 for the honour of doing so?

---------- Post added at 14:52 ---------- Previous post was at 14:51 ----------

Exactly, it is a lot easier to levy such a bill by throwing their standard charges back at them, though you could as you point out calculate your 1/2 days pay after tax and claim that instead.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

The wording of the FAQ says 'all three services' in its example, suggesting by service they mean 'phone', 'internet' and 'TV', not the packages or options that exist within those services.

So, if you had all three and tried to cancel TV and Phone, they would charge you £8. Frankly that is criminal and if they tried it on me I'd cancel the broadband as well.

They just love finding new ways to make their customers hate them, don't they? :rolleyes:

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Even more so as you can't cancel the phone and keep TV. So, it could be argued they are one service, except when you cancel them :erm:

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

NTL's phone and TV services have famously morphed from two to one to two again, depending on what was more convenient for NTL. I bet they are two services in this instance.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I cant remember being given an option to buy my own modem!! I am under the impression that the modem is part of the service that I purchase from NTL...As the MAC addy is linked to my A/C we don't own teh modems NTL do, therefore it is their responsibility to provide equipment that is fit for the service. The majority of ADSL modems are bought (either by incorporating the cost into the first years subs or peeps buying them from the isp or another retailer) and are easily available in the high st.

If I pay for a service then I do expect the equipment to be appropriate for that servcie...therefore if NTL up the speed to one that the equipment provided can not cope with, then I think that is is NTL's responsibilty to provide the hardware to use that service.....If they did not provide the modem and it was the customers responsibilty for providing a suitable modem (as is the way with self install ADSL) then I would have no gripes about getting a new modem as it would be my choice whether I wanted to utilise the speed increase or not. I happily purchased a new router when my speed was increased to 10Mb as the port connecting to my modem was only 10MB duplex and as such could not handle a full 10MB download...no problem as it was my responsibilty and no criticism on my part of NTL....now if my modem couldn't cope with the full 10MB then I would be an unhappy peep!!

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I agree with most of the charges it is just I think installation should cost money for new customers if ntl were to do a general cost assessment but of course that would stop their agressive sales techniques so wont happen.

What I have got problems with is the downgrade fee and the hardware replacement cost, why should I pay for damaged equipment replacement that I rent of ntl? If my cooker breaks I ring my landlord he either fixes it or replaces it at his own cost since I rent. Ntl is the same. If ntl want to charge for equipment faults then the equipment should be owned by the customer.

As for itemised calls this month my total call charges were just over £3.

so

Dec 2005 itemised calls £1.21 unitemised £11.36
Jan 2006 itemised calls £3.06 unitemised £14.60
Feb 2006 itemised calls £3.71 no unitemised

I find that very suspicous that when I started full itemisation I had a big reduction in costs when I am using the phone in the same manner and ntl wouldnt produce my call log for the previous unitemised month.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

As "Simply Grey" posted earlier whoever drafted / agreed this has walked ntl into a legal minefield which will result in costs of many thousands of pounds.

The proposed "...late payment fee of £10" is a breach of the 1977 (& subsequent amendments) Act.

It constitutes a "penalty" and is illegal under consumer credit law which clearly states that a charge cannot be in excess of the liquidated losses incurred.

Anther forum which I am involved with has recovered many thousands of pounds over the past twelve months in respect of illegal charges such as this. The fact that ntl openly admit that this is a "late payment fee" as opposed to trying to hide it behind the usual "administration charge" is proof that the cheese has slid of their cracker.

Several members of the legal profession and people who have won claims via the forum in question have viewed these proposed charges and are quite happy to advise should anyone want to avail of assistance / advice in the event that ntl try this on with anyone here or elsewhere.

Incidentally, it's interesting that NTL will charge you £12.00 for a year of itemised billing while under the 1998 DPA you can request same for a statutory fee of no more than £10.00 (at considerably more administration costs to them).

Unless they can quantify why suddenly it costs £4.00 to downgrade a service (remember this is currently free) this will also be argued to be a "penalty charge".

Their legal affairs people really need to pull their socks up.

For example: "There will be a one off £25 charge to have your second set-top box installed. This charge will appear as "Install TV Add SetTop" on your next bill."

I'm assuming, from the wording, that there is no rolling fee for the service?

Please, really ntl - get your act together.

If anyone wants advice on how to contest charges or needs qualified legal advice on how to proceed with small claims drop me a pm and I'll hook you up.


Ref: Chrysalis above:

"..and ntl wouldnt produce my call log for the previous unitemised month".

Chrysalis, point out to them that they are, by definition, a "Data Controller" and, as such, are bound by the DPA 1998 and the Office of the Information Commissioner not only to retain the information which you might require off them in relation to your account but also that, should you advise them that you are considering taking legal proceedings, they are in no position to refuse under the Ch34 exemptions of the aforementioned Act.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

What is the difference between that and late payment fees from credit cards, store cards etc?

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

None - they're all illegal if they do not constitute / reflect the actual liquidated losses.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

So basically every single late fee is actually illegal?

I'm a little bit skeptical about that.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

My credit card late fee (twice caused by the poxy Royal Mail) is always a flat fee regardless of my CC balance...

(I pay my bills at the bank now)

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Yes.

Unless the person applying the fee can prove, in a court of law, that the fee charged represents the actual cost to them in liquidated losses.

Consider this. Does it cost anyone £10.00 to produce a standard computer generated letter?

No.

Punky, write to them demanding them back / refunded otherwise you will take them to the small claims court.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Oooh and i assume you can go back 6 years on this. Could be fun. Can you use money claim on line to do these claims?

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

extensions are the property of the customer and not BT so if a fault is proven onto an extension the customer is charged due to it being customer provided equipment (even if it was there when you bought the house.etc its not actually BT who put those in normally.)

If you wish you can have BT install your extensions in which case if anything goes wrong on them and its found to be a fault with a BT installed extension then they should put it right for free.

Most BT NTE (network terminating equipment, aka the phone socket) should have a removable front plate on it with the connectors on it, some of the older ones don't but most do What a BT engineer will do is take that off and if the line tests ok from that point outwards then its a problem with the extensions or something you've got plugged into a socket and you will charged as its a fault on YOUR equipment.

You are perfectly entitled to take that front plate off and connect the extensions yourself or have any 3rd party do it for you its the wires behind that bit your not supposed to touch.

as for houses where extensions already exist it tends to be the builder of the house or a previous owner thats put those in so again if a fault is found on them you WILL be charged.

NTL's problem with charging for faulty STB.etc is THEY own the STB your not t touch the cable connection from it therefore it is absolutly absurd that you should pay for a fault on THEIR equipment, i would not expect anyone else to charge for a fault on THEIR equipment!

the reason you pay for SKY boxes to be repaired after a year is becuase you actually OWN the box its yours, although that does mean u get to keep it should you ever decide to get rid of sky ;) same goes with the dish i believe, they give you it when you sign a years contract.

Oh and should i be saying BT anymore isnt it Openreach now.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

ntl would not charge for a faulty box but they would charge for a scart lead not plugged in if you had called them out for no pics, for example.

Also where they are saying about the remote, it is for a replacement (as in you have lost the original 1) or you have abused it.

I think the down grade change is a little silly.

Also it cost about £50 for a tech visit (up to the knock on your door) so £10 for you not being in is acceptable IMO.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I would argue its acceptable as long as the tech turns up when they are supposed to or someone from NTL has the decency to inform you that they will be late.

if the you wait in all day and then someone turns up a day later and they then tryed to charge you £10 then that wouldn't be acceptable.

Oh and charging for a scart lead being out.etc is ok becuase thats customers equipment, if the box is prooved to be faulty and they don't charge that is ok but that wasn't how it reads on the charges page (at least it wasn't when i last read it don't know if its changed since)

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Yes, you are absolutely correct, the current claim period is six years.

Moneyclaim online is a perfectly acceptable method of claiming for illegal charges.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Thanks for advice will contact them about this tommorow.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

All,

The downgrade service charge seemed to have hit a raw nerve with mosts folk when this thread started and I myself contacted ntl on a personal level and asked for this to be reconsidered and as a direct result of this and feedback posted, ntl have notified me this afternoon that they have had a change of heart and will be cancelling the downgrade service charge.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

:clap: :clap:

Well done Mick

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I think you'll find that there'll be a lot of their new "service" charges being "reviewed".

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

nice job mick, I think that is one of ntl's strengths in that their is flexibility to change packages and that charge would have seriously reversed that.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Why is that? All the other charges are fair enough!

And Mick I agree with Bill :clap:

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I've explained this previously on this thread.

The reason why they have / will have to review elements of their "proposed new charges" is because penalty charges, such as "downgrade charges" or "late payment" charges are illegal under existing "common" and "consumer credit" laws in that they do not represent liquidated or pre-estimated losses.

This is a matter of proven law, not a matter of debate (unless of course NTL, unlike any of the major banks or credit card companies in the UK, is prepared to disclose / quantify the breakdown of their liquidated losses per failed transaction in a court of law should a customer elect to challenge them to do so).

Some of the charges may seem "fair enough" given the circumstances outlined in their Press Release. However, I can assure you that the "late payment" and "downgrade" fees ,as mooted originally, are unenforcable under common law.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

You don't know that for sure - If you have a degree in law - I'd be happy to agree with you, but until then - I am sure ntl's legal team would of looked at all the avenues and would of advised ntl what is and what is unenforcable.

Regardless. the fact of the matter is - ntl have changed their minds on the downgrade charge, a change in decision that happened because I asked ntl to reconsider by highlighting the feedback posted on Cable Forum. :)

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Some replies to posts here.
Had a few glasses of wine so please excuse the format/spelling

@slef2003 post #51
I was stating that ntl always are responcilble for repairs to modems where as my adsl modem is my property and if found faulty after 12 months would a)be my problem to fix or b)incur a cost if a bt tech called and it was proved the modem was at fault.
@Chrysalis post #52
Genuine faults are always free to repair with ntl. However if:
Someone states they have washed the reomte its chargable.
Someones bunny/dog/cat damages the feed cable iot chargable.
Someones kid removes the scart card and they cannot be bohered to find it its chargable.
You will not be charged for genuine faults with the equipment but if you trip and pull the stb off the tv and it breaks you really should be iable for the cost of the call-out to change the equipment at the very least.
(all above are genuine examples taken by myself on the phone at ntl)

@Mr angry post #53
The charges do not in any way cover the cost of the credit control people hired to chase outstanding payments.
you quote £10 = 1 off dump of data not formatted at all.
£12 = 12 itemised bills posted seperatly.
I cannot see what you Are trying to say here :erm:
@Mr angry post #55
Ask your solicitor to write you a letter then try to attack whatever ntl charge for chasing late payments.
@dragon post #60
ntl faults will at all times try to resolve non box faults over the phone. They will only apply a charge where it is the fault of equipment owned by the customer. Regardless of how bad some of the guys and gals in faults are the techs that call will be able to make the call.
I spent 100's of hours researching different tv's/dvds/vcrs. I could talk a blind person through tuning there own tv to ntl and setting up dvd etc. Yet many able bodied lazy people decided that they though it was ntls job to come and set up there new dvd/tv? Always used to defeat me that one.
It costs more than £50 to send a tech to sort a problem at a customers house.
@Mick post #64
Well done :clap: customers should be able to chop and change services with out penalty.
@Mr Angry post #70
You assume that the computer automatically send a out a letter. What if as is more likely the case there is a collections department charged with contacting customers and chasing payments. Say the call with out usccess on 5 occassions then send a letter. What are the cost invloved by ntl in recovering that amount and do you think that people should be able to pay late?
And if you pay in advance for ntl are you using a'credit' facility?
I welcome anyone to try take a £10 charge through the courts. I can't see it getting anywhere. What lawyer would do that? What court would accept the escalation of a £10 charge into £1000's legal fees?

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Mick, with all due respect, I do know that for sure.

As I stated - it is a proven fact of common & consumer law that late payment and penalty charges are legally unenforceable if they do not represent a genuine pre-estimate of liquidated losses.

"Changed their minds" is company legalese for "sorry, we thought we'd get away with it".

I'm not privy as to whether or not NTL's legal team were consulted during the drafting of the proposed new charges, I very much doubt it, but I can confirm that they were contacted by an individual at Director level from NTL on Feb 8th who asked them to review the legality of certain proposed charges "as published". As a result it appears that the downgrade charge is the first of these proposed charges that will eventually be disposed of / waived.

Under the current legislation any information provided under the 1998 DPA must be provided to the applicant in a "legible" and "understandable format". Additionally - the current retention period in the UK is such that any previous 12 month period of statements ought to be available in their "standard format" at the push of a button. Any data controller who would be stupid enough to give out an unformatted response is asking for trouble.

What I'm saying is that NTL appear to think that it's entirely acceptable for them to charge you £12.00 for something as "a service" when it is available to you as "a right" under current law for £10.00. Multiply the £2.00 differential by the number of customers who are not aware of their rights under the DPA and, hey presto! some bean counter in business affairs has just generated millions in profits and got themselves a promotion.

I'm assuming nothing. What you outline above is an interesting analogy, but a poor defence. In a technological environment such as NTL's the prerequisite for the issuing of "reminders" is a moot point. Generally speaking most people "get the message" when their services are cut off. If they want their services reinstated they know exactly what they have to do. No need for telephone calls or letters on the part of NTL. In their defence they could possibly state that they send out reminders as a "courtesy". This falls under the gambit of "services", not liquidated losses and, as such, is not chargeable beyond the agreed terms of the contract.

Additionally, NTL themselves make no mention of the need for telephone calls or letters but simply state "If your bill is not paid in full when the subsequent bill is generated there will be a late payment fee of £10. These charges will become effective on 1st April 2006 and will appear as "Late Payment Fee" on your bill." This statement makes no distinction, where there quite obviously is a distinction, between those who only part pay a bill and those who pay nothing at all. Are NTL asking consumers to believe that they incur the exact same losses in both scenarios?

If it were a point of law then any court or lawyer would do it. There have been many thousands of cases where fixed penalty notices for sums varying from £10.00 and upwards have been contested in the courts at great expense (sometimes running into the tens of thousands). The fact of the matter remains that the law is there for everyone - irrespective of their financial standing. From a plaintiff's perspective they would need to be absolutely sure that the charge was legal. If a respondant felt that the charge was illegal it is then up to the courts to decide. As the current law stands late payment or penalty charges are illegal if they do not accurately reflect the liquidated losses of the party claiming them.

In light of this, and the fact that the previous quote from the NTL page makes no mention, whatsoever, of any attempt on their part to recover an outstanding balance or cost associated with doing so, then one can only assume that what they are proposing is that they were intent on charging customers ten pounds just for noticing, not for recouping or attempting to recoup, a shortfall or non-payment of their account. That is entirely unenforceable.

The legal affairs people currently studying this are affording consideration to the "in terrorem" (in lay persons speak a "warning" or "deterrent") nature of the proposed charge as detailed above. In its current wording, and for the reasons outlined above, it is unenforceable.

Thankfully I won't have to do that.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

FWIW-I think Mr Angry is absolutely spot on. :tu:

There was a case recently wherby the banks were taken to court over high 'late payment' charges as the charges were in excess of what it actually cost the bank.

Basically, no one is allowed to charge excessively for a late payment & would lose in a court of law if challenged. :tu:

I have some info somewhere that I'll dig up shortly.

[Edit]

http://www.bankcharges.info/

http://idigital.vm.bytemark.co.uk/bag/

www.BankActionGroup.com

Stephen Home is the man that took the banks to court & won. :)

[Edit 2]

[Edit 3]

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...2&page=1&pp=10

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Thanks for that Neil.

I assume you are talking about the case of Stephen Hone who won back all of his late payment / penalty charges for the last six years from the Abbey and walked away with a very tidy sum in damages.

Stephen's case is just one of several dozen successful actions which we are currently dealing with / advising on.

[Edit]

Yes, I see you are.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

:D

Yes m8-Stephen Home is clearly the man when it comes to taking on the banks! :D

Taken from here.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I agree with you both about the charges but....

Considering that ntl are only going to charge £10 I think quoting banks that charge £30+ is going over the top a bit. Why should people get away with late payment, if you where late with paying your mortgage you could lose you house!

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Irrespective of the amount it has to represent liquidated losses - that's the law.

NTL's proposed charges (based on their own press release) do not.

End of story.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Not in this case it isn't - ntl have changed their minds on the downgrade fee because of the feedback received and comments posted on this forum.

I don't.

---------- Post added at 11:29 ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 ----------

What press release? Proposed charges? The page you have seen is not a press release or set of proposed charges - it is a page that consists of actual charges that exists now and some new from April 1st, except now the downgrade fee will now not be going ahead.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Mick, I'm really sorry to burst your bubble here but if you want to claim that you, or comments (numbering less than seventy at the time of your announcement) on this forum, useful though it is, were the catalyst for NTL backtracking on one of their proposed (yes, I said proposed) charges then you are welcome to do so.

The more rational / logical users of this forum, having read my previous post on the matter, will, in all probability, realize that a director at NTL, acting on the basis of legal advice received from an independant third party on February 8th, instructed NTL's legal affairs to look into the matter, which they did, and continue to do. Their initial finding was to immediately scrap the proposed (there, I did it again) downgrade charge for the reasons which I previously cited.

If you think that some "feedback", sixty odd posts by less than a dozen users of this forum and a nod and a wink from you would swing the collective mindset of the NTL board of directors then good on you. Me, my money is on the law.

That being the case then I'd like to think that NTL are currently seeking to engage new counsel more adept, in fact even basically competent, at understanding the fundamentals of consumer contract law.

---------- Post added at 11:29 ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 ----------


Ah, I see, now you're opting for pedantic rather than factual. Since perhaps you didn't see the Press Release let me entertain you. If we can agree that today's date is February 25th 2006 and that there are new charges intended to be implemented on April 1st 2006 I fail to see how (given that they are as yet unimplemented) they are not proposed (oops!) charges.

The facts of the matter still stand. Penalty and late payment charges which do not represent a genuine pre-estimate of liquidated losses are illegal under current consumer law. No one who has ever challenged these charges on that basis in a court of law, as evidenced by the links provided by Neil, has ever lost their case or not been reimbursed. These are facts.

I've been (perhaps too) clear on this matter since its announcement and I know that NTL are currently seeking their own counsel on the matter but I would offer the following.

Irrespective of the outcome of the advice they are currently receiving should they elect to apply a £10.00 "late payment" charge they will invariably be met with a substantial number of county court claims for reimbursement and costs from their slightly more "clued in" customers.

They can dress it up as they like but (and this, to my mind, is proof of the non involvement of legal counsel prior to the time of publication) they clearly identified this proposed charge, in their own terminology, as a "Late payment fee". What solicitor in his or her right mind would allow a client to shoot themselves so clearly in the foot by advocating the publication of such a self defeating statement? It beggars belief.

In the long term NTL needs to decide if the potential short term profits from such an exercise outweigh the potential costs, bad publicity and legal overheads in trying to overturn an already established tenet of consumer law. They would do well to take stock of the rather nasty predicament that the eight major banks in the UK now find themselves in as a result of their indifference to, and abuse of, consumer rights as far as "late payment" charges go.

It's not rocket science.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

No need for an apology as I have not claimed anything. What I stated is factual, not a claim - if you have a problem believing it, thats your own hard luck.

It wasn't proposed - it was going to go ahead- which part of this do you not understand? :dozey:

And because of your blatant ignorance - you would quite rightly deserve to lose it and lose it you would. Perhaps you're not aware of the fact that I and another member of the team held a meeting with the chief exective of ntl last year. Since then, we have been having follow up meetings and ntl monitor this forum and take into account the feedback posted and if and where possible ntl will make any necessary operational changes.

See http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...ad.php?t=27095

For instance - last year ntl re-opened a fault service on Sunday - this was again down to feedback posted on this forum as customers were fed up of waiting until Monday morning to report a fault.

See http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/...ow-open-sunday

Another change of policy which CF helped to change was ntl's returns policy on equipment - Customers now have a definitive 3 choices on what to do when they remove and or cancel all their services.

See http://www.home.ntl.com/page/equipmentreturns


http://www.home.ntl.com/page/charges

The above page is live - those charges are going ahead (Except as I have already said - downgrade charge). - they are not proposed charges!!! That's how! That page is not a press release - its a live page. :dozey:

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

ntl charging a downgrade fee is not in any way illegal- i've done some detailed research.

The charge can be made on the grounds of the cost that ntl face as a result of the change. Many ADSL companies used to (and i'm sure still do) charge for a change of service level. Although there are more costs involved in ADSL service regrading, there are costs involved in doing so on cable as well- one example:

Customer calls CS to downgrade. Ntl have to pay for:
1) cost of call to 0800 number
2) cost of member of staff to handle call and perform change
3) call centre overheads

It is not unreasonable, and certainly not illegal to levy a charge for this.

However, as ntl have now dropped the fee that is largely irrelevant. ntl take feedback from this forum seriously as it is representative of their customers opinion (although admittedly, only a small percentage of customers).

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Interesting, it was going to be a £4.00 charge for each downgrade of service. I suspect it would be very difficult at court to prove that ntl did not infact incur that cost in real terms for each downgraded service, for labour - just the CS operator's wages, plus the ntl freephone charge, together with loss of prospective profit (which is not excluded based on the above definition). If services such as TV were removed (where a STB then had to be physically disconnected and collected) the £4.00 seems cheap to me.

Bottom line though, for the reasons clearly stated throughout this thread, the £4.00 downgrade charge was badly thought out. I have no doubt that Mick's efforts, on behalf of Cable Forum's users, will have been a major factor in heading off this charge.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Well I don't care who got NTL to change their mind, I'm tired of their poor CS and constant price increases so I have chosen to use my feet!

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

"I myself contacted ntl on a personal level and asked for this to be reconsidered and as a direct result of this and feedback posted, ntl have notified me this afternoon that they have had a change of heart and will be cancelling the downgrade service charge." What part of that, your own quote, do you not understand as a claim?

You still haven't explained. What is the difference between "not yet implemented" and "proposed"?

Hooray!! for you and "another member of the team".

Again, Hooray!! for you. It may, quite possibly, have escaped your notice - but I'm not in the least bit interested in these issues. The reason I entered the discussion on this matter was to highlight the illegal nature of a proposed "late payment" charge (a legal fact). I'm not interested in your self effacing trumpet blowing - I deal with facts - legal facts.

Again, I don't see the point of me having to reiterate the fact that these proposed charges are illegal (the law and respective jurisprudence in this jurisdiction has already proven that they are illegal). Which part of this do you not understand?

Since you seem to be so well connected, and seem intent on espousing this forum as a direct catalyst for decisions made at the highest echelons of NTL, why don't you invite the Company Secretary to come to this forum and debate his interpretation of the the legalities of the proposed charges with me?

Without wanting to appear ignorant I also extend the same invite to Mr MacKenzie in respect of the matters raised by Chris W and Rob C.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Can some one please confirm for me.




Does this mean there is no more monthly fees.. e.g the old 15£ a month?

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Erm - That is not a claim - it is a fact-end of.

I have. Look at that page!!!

Tough - I brought these to your attention whether you was interested or not because you are ignorant to the fact that ntl do take notice of what is posted on this forum and make operational changes where they can. They have in the past and have done on this occasion. I am not trumpet blowing, just merely proving to you that you would have lost your money, putting it on the law regarding the downgrade charge being cancelled.


Everytime you say proposed I am going to correct you - It's not proposed the charges are going ahead.

If you say so. :zzz:


It hasn't proven anything to me - that case that was highlighted is a different set of circumstances, like any court case would be. In your opinion they are illegal. BTW - It's not proposed, the charges are going ahead.

I might well do that but I doubt he would want to waste time debating with someone who would argue that black is white.

---------- Post added at 09:20 ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 ----------

The one off charge is relating to an installation charge to have a second box installed.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Have a look in the dictionary

proposed
adj : planned for the future; "the first volume of a proposed series" [syn: projected]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=proposed

Hardly correct.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...715#post679715

Irrespective of how you look at it the proposed (now abandoned) charge, had it been implemented, would have been illegal under current consumer contract law.

See above - and you would accuse me of arguing black is white.

This may surprise you but it's equally boring for me having to explain the same thing over and over again to someone who cannot, or does not want to, grasp that late payment charges are illegal.


Mick, this is a black and white issue. Stephen Hone's case is not unique - there have been hundreds of successful cases in the last twelve months alone and there are many dozens ongoing as we speak - none have lost their case. Stephen's case was highlighted because his was the first where a court not only found in his favour and agreed that late payment charges were illegal but they also awarded him several thousand pounds in compensation - my earlier post refers. If a ruling in law can't suffice in proving to you that late payment fees are illegal I don't see what higher form of authority can.

The circumstances of the origination of the charges (in Stephen's case a bank) are of no consequence. What was taken to task at law was the late payment charge elements which were disadvantageous to him as a consumer and contrary to the protection afforded to him under consumer contract law.

It's not my opinion, it's a matter of law.

You know what to do by now.

The offer on my part still stands - and, for what it's worth, in our exchanges to date I'm the one who has provided factual proof and instances of consumers asserting their rights under consumer contract law. Call it "arguing black is white" if you wish. Some, myself included, refer to it as right or wrong, legal or illegal.

---------- Post added at 09:20 ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 ----------

I raised that very same issue in one of my first posts on this matter. You'd think that the legal affairs people, who you are so adamant were involved in the drafting, would have identified this particular issue as being a bit of a slip up. It still reads "There will be a one off..." but I really don't want to get into contractual interpretation with you.

Mick, lets just agree to disagree. The fact of the matter is that if NTL go ahead with this proposed late payment charge then there will be a backlash from consumers who know their rights under current consumer contract law.


FOOTNOTE for Rob C & Chris W.

NTL might well have been able to put forward a case based on costings, of that I have no doubt.

The matter at hand is the issue of whether it would have been legal for them to charge you money (even a one off fee) for a lesser degree of services received. Consumers have the right to determine what services they require from providers, it's called "elective choice".

The terminology is key. NTL proposed a "Downgrade" fee and also proposed charging customers for electing not to avail of certain services. Under current law this is restrictive and contrary to consumers freedom of choice in that it asserts that receiving less will cost you more.

Customers would have been well within their rights to contest that they were being punatively penalized for no longer wanting certain services - in effect a restriction of "free" choice in the consumer market place. Once someone charges you for making a choice it's no longer free - simple as.

As I mentioned earlier their own admission and publication of a proposed "late payment fee" will, if eventually implemented, be causing them headaches in years to come (internet cache and "save as" are wonderful things) as disaffected consumers present copies of that page along with their court filing documents and cite, by way of just one example, the case of Hone vs Abbey, 2005 on the matter of late payment fees and the subsequent legal ruling thereof.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I don't need to - Those charges exist and are happening - they aren't proposed or charges to be planned - They exist and are going to happen.


Very correct. ;)

In your opinion they would be. BTW - It's not proposed, the charges are going ahead.


Spot on because you are. Your wrong that ntl doesn't take notice of feedback from this forum - I have shown you examples why you are wrong and you are still saying ntl don't. Pfft, whatever.


You haven't explained anything to me - I don't need anything to be explained.

I have neither agreed nor disagreed with you regarding the late payment charge - This little debate between me and you started because you pointed out to me, quite arrogantly - that you think ntl don't take any notice of some of the feedback posted on this forum - I have shown you incidences where they do and you still dismiss it as rubbish-Clue it isn't.

Regardless. the fact of the matter is - ntl have changed their minds on the downgrade charge, a change in decision that happened because I asked ntl to reconsider by highlighting the feedback posted on Cable Forum.


Regardless. the fact of the matter is - ntl have changed their minds on the downgrade charge, a change in decision that happened because I asked ntl to reconsider by highlighting the feedback posted on Cable Forum.


In the words of Catherine Tate.....

Am I bovvered? Ask me if I'm bovvered. Go on, ask me if I'm bovvered. Ask me. Ask me if I'm bovvered.

No, I ain't even bovvered!!!

Regardless. the fact of the matter is - ntl have changed their minds on the downgrade charge, a change in decision that happened because I asked ntl to reconsider by highlighting the feedback posted on Cable Forum.

And....

BTW - It's not proposed, the charges are going ahead.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Mick,

You really are starting to make yourself look a bit foolish and childish now.

If you want this forum to continue to be taken seriously, and for NTL to continue to take you seriously, then I suggest we just move on.

Please let's just leave it there.

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I know Mick can fight his own battles but who the hell do you think you are telling Mick what he can and can't do ?????

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

Personally I think you both need to let it go, you both have your own opinions and we all know by now what they are so why not leave it there?

Or are you both playing that game my kid sister used to when she was about eleven?

Got to have the last word?

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

If I'm reading Mr Angry's post correctly, he's saying that no service provider can charge you a 'downgrade fee' (or equivalent) whenever you change the services you opt to receive from them?

---------- Post added at 01:25 ---------- Previous post was yesterday at 23:59 ----------

Just had a PM from Mr Angry confirming that I've interpreted his post correctly.

In that case, perhaps I better do something about Plusnet - they charge £14.99 to downgrade from their Premier broadband product at £22 per month to their Plus product at £15 per month.
They aren't the only company - most broadband providers charge a fee to change between products. By Mr Angry's logic, they can only charge if the user is upgrading!

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

but it doesnt say anything about a monthly charge any more, so if i phone up n order it, n they charge me for it, i can moan?.. :) better off buying sky if you do =-/

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

I think the issue is how much they charge-not whether they charge.

The amount charged must reflect any penalty they incur, for example if you read my earlier links re the Banks you'll see that them charging £30.00 or so to send a letter was deemed by the courts to be excessive.

Had they charged say £3.00 then the banks would probably not got into trouble, so as long as PlusNet's charge is not excessive you may be ok (it may also be that they are passing on a £14.99 charge levied on them by BT)

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

i hate these lil fees that they don't show u about prob 80% of there customers don't no about it,

i think all fees should be included in the monthly fee.. etc

Re: ntl Service Charges new!
 

There's no charge from BT - it's the same wholesale broadband product, just different limits on usage from Plusnet.