Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

Are the Generals revolting?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...682807,00.html

This follows on from a lot of senior US military types who are rather aghast at what Bush is doing with their armed forces.

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

Although I might agree with General Sir Michael Rose, I'm not really sure what his qualifications to demand an impeachment are, and nothing he has said is really new.

As long as there is apathy from the voting (or, more to the point, non-voting) public then nothing will happen. We all knew the facts when we went into the last general election - yet we still voted Blair back in. That tells me that either the public supported action in Iraq, they can't be bothered to find out the facts about action in Iraq or they are not bothered full stop.

So whilst ex-SAS commanders might pontificate about their own political views - nothing will happen unless the public sit up and take notice.

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

Also here

And how many people killed, kidnapped, maimed etc?

Personally I'd love it to happen here and in the US but sadly can't see it ever happening. :(

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

The way the election system works, that can hardly be called an endorsement, but the fact remains that enough of the people who voted were happy to overlook some of the issues, it would seem.

And the ones that didn't vote? Well, if they did have a point of view, then that was the time to be heard.
Let's for a moment assume that every single person against also voted, and then presumably voted against the current government.

That means that those not opposed to the war and/or in support of the government still must have out-numbered them.

And hence we have the government chosen by a majority - as democracy requires. The fact that this 'majority' is not representative of the whole of the population is down to electoral apathy.
If the public can't be bothered to get out there and make their mark, then they should also accept the result.

So I personally think any 'groundswell' of opposition to the government ought to reflect on their inaction at the last election, and maybe resolve to be counted next time. Maybe then I'd be interested in their complaints.

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

He also said that if it has him, he would not have led his troops into a war he disagreed with. Newflash, but generals are not intitled to allow their personal convictions to interfere with there work

When you join the army you and at the disposal of the Goverment. You are not allowed to choose your wars.

Impeachment has already failed once because there has been no proof that the goverment knew that Iraq did not have WMD. It only was discovered that their was not, that is not a lie unless the goverment knew before hand

---------- Post added at 11:17 ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 ----------

Also, Just because he a a formal General does not make his opinion more valuible than anyone else. He was not to do with this war and hence has about as much say as you, me or anyone else

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

You mean his armed forces...

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

No, They voted for the party they voted for. A vote that did not go to labour is not exactly a vote against labour. If it was a two party system then the result may have been different but its not.

It was not Labour vs Not Labour

It was Labour vs Tory, Lib Dem, Greens, ukip, BNP and so on.

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

Yeah right...

It would have been under Proportional Representation, but in practice, this country has a 2.5 party system. If you think otherwise, you are deluding yourself.

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

It also wasn't a referendum. There were several issues and I didn't make my choice based on the war (esp. seeing the two main parties both supported it)

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

The voting system may need a change, I was simply pointing out that vote not for labour was not therefor a vote against labour.

Its the same stupid logic in the US where the Democrates think that 3rd party candidates are stealing their votes :rolleyes:

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

Fair enough, and good point :)

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

Cheers, I would like a Proportional Representation system but I do not think it would work. A small party would hold a balance of powerO

One idea i liked was keep the current system and every general election the Lords seats are decided by Proportional Representation, I.E If labour get 54% of the vote, they choose 54% of the lords and so on.

Under that system the lord would be a lot harder for labour under the current election results as they would have less power in the lords. This way the winning party can have a majority and get policys though but the lords will ensure that if it was a small win it will be harder.

Anyway this is off-topic....

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

I know how the electoral system works.

I was not saying that it was a vote of confidence in Labour, but at the same time, you cannot protest against the party in government AND vote for them, if you actually want to get a message across to them. (Unless the message is "do what you like, I'll vote for you anyway.")

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

Sorry, I misunderstood your post. I agree with you on that

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

That is how it should be - voting on a single issue is just daft.

I know that often between the parties and the media they try to make it look like a referendum/vote of confidence, but it is up to the electorate to look past the single issue.

---------- Post added at 11:48 ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 ----------

That is the argument that is often brought forward against a PR system.

It's true that is is possible that a minority party could hold the balance of power, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing, nor is it inevitable.

---------- Post added at 11:52 ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 ----------

Sound like a fudge to me. A way to pretend we have PR, without having it.

If we had PR, we wouldn't need the Lords at all...
Not at all - the suggestion of impeaching an encumbent PM is about government and democracy.

As is everything we've talked about so far.

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

True. Generally, I am in favour of PR, but having said that, in the thirty-odd years that I lived in a PR country, I have never spoken to a politician. In 5 years in the UK, my local MP rang my doorbell twice.

Proportional Representation does imo carry the risk of widening the gulf between politicians and the general public. But then again, so does not having a hope in hell of having your voice heard in parliament.

A mix between the two may well be the best option.

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

Ok, now you've scared me!
Recently the lords have appeared more in touch with the people than the goverment or parliment.
They've done their job and kept the goverment in check, hence why Tony Bliar has tried so hard to change them into a house of his cronies so he can get anything he likes through.

As for impeaching him, I'm all for it, if it will get him out of westminster any quicker

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

Agreed, I missed that bit earlier. Under any political system, there is a need for an elected chamber that keeps the government in check.

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

Problem with the upper house being elected is that you risk people putting their re-election prospects above their job (like in the commons)

While we're impeaching Bliar, can we do Blears too?

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

I never thought you'd be one to be scared so easily. lol.
And within the present system of government they are essential to ensure that Parliament is kept in check.

But IF we had a PR system, then they'd be no longer required, or indeed desired.
Government isn't a popularity contest - this is one of those things that makes me despair of politics (and sport too, as it happens) in the UK. At the first sign of any trouble the call goes out for the 'manager' to get the sack.

Blair is not solely responsible - the rest of the government is just as much to blame, as is the apathetic electorate.

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

I'll be sending you the dry cleaning bill!

How would PR prevent the goverment doing something that the people don't want? Israel has PR, and it has done many things that the Israeli people do not support.

Exactly, get rid of Blears too :D
Blair is responsible for appointing his cabinet, and ensuring that they are competent enough to appoint compentent people below them etc, that is why the responsibility lies with him.
He's also a slimy toad, but that's a simplified and censored personal opinion of him.


Doesn't make it wrong though ;)


We're also way beyond the first sign of trouble....

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

I'll park the shredder under the postbox...;)
First of all, if the Israeli government can do things that the majority of Israelis disagree with, then maybe something went wrong during the election.

And it is perfectly normal for governments to do things that most people dislike. Like raising taxes etc.
Then let's have a vote of no confidence in the government in Parliament, because being an incompetent PM is NOT an impeachable offence.
I wouldn't dream of suggesting otherwise...
We're also way beyond the first call for his head. I think the previous time was........ oh yes. Just before the last General Election...

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

Surely, though, if the PM were legally impeachable, no-one in their right minds would vote for him - which would have made the elcetion a single issue one.

And the fact that no-one has taken their words any further would suggest that he is not impeachable - however much we might like him to be, or that there is much conjecture but little in the way of a black and white position.

This is backed up by the fact that Labour was re-elected. People who vote had a difference of opinion and those that didn't couldn't give a hoot whether we go round invading other countries without permission or not.

That sounds like a scary proposition to me. If you cast your mind back to the 97 election where New Labour had a huge majority, PR would have ensured that every vote would have gone their way and that there could be no check and balance for new policy and laws. As it is, Labour used a shaky (at best) draconian bit of statute to force though its opinions on hunting with hounds. Now, I don't support the concept of fox hunting, but it's clear there is a roughly 50/50 split on opinions in this country, and we have a system of making laws that ensures it is ratified by our "elders". This process, which has served us quite well for many centuries was overridden - and that to me is more worrying than laws that offend a lot of people.

We have to have procedures to attempt to keep some sort of normality in this country, no matter how hard the present government might want otherwise.

I'm assuming you mean that government should not be a popularity contest? Because that's exactly what it is right now, that and an exercise in marketing. One thing is for sure, it's not government as we knew it - and when you scratch under the spun surface, what you find starts to scare you.

Re: Impeach Blair now says limp-wristed do-gooder leftie, er, former SAS General
 

I'll also be sending you the winning euro millions jackpot ticket (honest)

If there was only the house of commons, there would have been nothing to prevent the goverment bringing in laws which would have been detremental to the nation and not what people wanted. I just can't see how PR would prevent a goverment doing what they want.

I know, it's such a shame... can we still get rid of Blears though?