Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

It would appear that the Dutch are no longer the laid back bunch that they have long been perceived to be.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...823334,00.html

I am wondering whether they are being too intolerant, or maybe they are looking at how tolerent other countries (eg UK) have been, and feel that they don't ike the end result. Or maybe there is another reason behind it.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

NOOOOOooooooo !! ;)

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Could I just say how surprised I am that this thread was started by you :rolleyes:
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I'll agreee with you on this one! ;)

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

You could argue that if Muslim countries are making dutch people cover up then the dutch country can fairly make muslim people uncover.

Theres many reasons this may have happened, it may also discourage muslims that are not willing to integrate into the dutch way of life from bothering to immigrate there.


__________________________________________________ ______________

I have often felt that the purpose of a school uniform is to allow the children from all walks of life to looks the same and not be singled out for looking different, I fail to see why schools should allow people to wear national dress. Would I be allowed to send my children to school dressed as Morris dancers? No and thats damn right anyway so why is it different for people form other cultures?

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

You can say what you like. Anyone is free to say what they think, (except, it would appear, when they disagree with you).

Why so surprised? Because I read the Sun and it appeared in the Times? Which presumably means I am capable of free thought...

Or surprised because it has something to do with Islam?

Pray tell me, why are you so surprised? I am surprised nobody else has started it.
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Nice to see you back up your post with good logic as usual.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

I'm not surprised because it's a tedious obsession of yours. And you're very chippy about your Sun reading habits today aren't you? I've explained my opinion re Sun readers elsewhere.
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I think that post is pretty self explanatory. I think Basa sounds as equally tired with this topic.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Good for her!



The Dutch have been having a lot of problems with muslims in the Netherlands and they are fed up with the situation. They have realised that their tolerant, open ways have been exploited and are actually sneered at by many muslims there. I'm not sure if the ban is a productive way to start to reform things though.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

If you're tired with the topic, walk away from it.

But what is this "tedious obsession"? I think the OP was extremely inoffensive, and didn't actually state my own feelings on the subject. I am merely asking for the opinions of others.

Anyone woud think you consider me to be somewhat discriminatory!

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Good old google ads :p:

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

LOL @ marky

They'll be persecuting folk who wear hoodies next....

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Too right ... maybe !


I might just chip in the odd biggoted, racist remark where I feel appropriate ;)

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

The thing that surprised me the ost about this article was how many other countries have similar bans, albeit local bans and not national ones.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

I guess there would also be an element of secutiry here too. I mean how do you identify someone wearing a b..bur....a one of them things?

Anyway, what would happen if a female from the west went to a muslim country and didnt cover up, she would be jailed or deported. Why should we behave differently towards them, especially as it appears they are taking the wee wee outa the dutch gov?

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

There was a comparison in the Times' article with a law that stopped football hooligans from covering their faces with scarves to hide their identity. I recall them doing this with their scarves some years back, and have to say that the effect was actually quite menacing, but it's hard to explain why. In colder climes however I have covered my face with a scarf as well, and it's an interesting comparison.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Shhhh ... don't mention 'hoodies' ! ;)

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Was out in Nottingham on Saturday and saw loads pof people wearing Save The Hoodie stickers! :)

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

They probably just didn't want to get beaten up by the hoodie wearing underclass! ;) :D

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

What the heck, it's their country they can do what they like as far as I'm concerned.

Completely off topic but my first girlfriend, Bianca Boom, was Dutch.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

hmmm, I would have expected a little better from The Times:

The minister has stated yesterday that she is investigating the possibilities of banning the burka. There are no concrete proposals yet, so the following seems a little premature:

And on page 2:
Is presented as existing legislation, when this is only a plan which has been proposed informally last week and has barely been discussed in parliament (and imo is quite unlikely to ever make it as a law)

Many illegal immigrants, particularly those who can show they have been in the country and worked there for a long time are actually allowed to stay. Those who cannot prove this do have to go though.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Hmmm .. sounds like the basis for a plan. ;)

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Just as laid back as ever, hence not too impressed with the very un-laid back immigrants that insist on dragging the country back to the middle ages.

They have been way too tolerant over the years - accepting anyone and everything without batting an eyelid.
But now some of those they've welcomed in are trying to change the liberated, relaxed and free nature of the country. The murder of Van Gogh (director) was definitely one of those events that is behind this shift in attitude.

One section of the community decided that being laid back wasn't good enough any more. Well, the Dutch think it is, so their attitude - quite rightly - is that if they don't like it, then no-one is making them stay.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Is indeed the feeling of a section of the Dutch population. Though I should add there is not really an emphasis on deporting people, but rather on integration of those already there and restriction of people coming in. Things started changing quite a bit before the murder of Van Gogh though. The rise and subsequent killing of Pim Fortuyn has had quite a backlash as well. Basically, the country has been in turmoil for the last four years or so, and politicians are running around like headless chickens trying to outdo each other in being seen to be tough on whatever is in fashion this week.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

If that's the reasoning behind it, I admire their stance.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Agreed.

I've also got quite a few friends who are Dutch as well.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Quite right. This 'distaste' of women that these people seem to have has nothing to do with Islam.

And therefore it is no surprise that they're saying enough is enough. Good for them! I don't see why a whole country should change its culture to suit an immigrant minority.

No, not nearly productive enough. I'm sure they could come up with something more effective, like forced repatriation.

And since I know some 'liberals' will no doubt have something to say on this, I would like them to acknowledge first of all that the Dutch are generally know to be exceedingly liberal. Just look where it might get you.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

good on the dutch.its there country let them do what they like.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Didn't the French try to ban foreign national dress (or aspects of it) in schools ??

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

They banned the wearing of headscarves during school hours. In fact as far as I know they banned all 'overt religious displays' such as crucifixes etc

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3328277.stm

:clap:

Whereas the UK gives legal aid to people when they disagree with their schools uniform policy :mad:

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Quote:
Immigrants guilty of any minor crime, such as shoplifting, during their first three years in the country can be deported.


Who could argue with that?

I have often said we dont get a balanced section of society from these countries, although cultural differences mean we in the west have different morals and attitudes to crime. The UK seems to attract its fair share of the bad apples from other countries.

It sounds like other western countries have similar problems!

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Me?
Reading the local rag and spotting people with foreign sounding names in the court reports does not count as credible evidence. I have often said that :)

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Yes, Because we would be a much better country if we just told people to sit down and shut up :rolleyes:

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

I fail to see how any citizen of this country with any common sense could have any arguments, why should criminals not be sent back to their country of origin if they commit crime during a set probationary period?

Its not just about reading local rags, its also about being involved with people from certain parts of the world. Different cultures have very different values and morale levels, many of these people have the attitude that UK citizens have too much money and deserve to loose it.
I do pay attention to the amount of fraud commited by certain sections of society, but I can honestly say that in the last say 5 years, I know of no-one "personally" of UK origin (and that includes people of foreign descent born here) to of ripped any one else off. I do however know of 3 of african descent and one of asian descent.

1) Girlfriends friend Asian stole cheques from housemates and got thrown out, then stole from my girlfriend. She then claimed to of paid the council tax for two years but the other two occupants were taken to court for failure to pay... the list goes on with her.

2) Dodgy African woman I was involved with who went to work for my banks callcentre and looked into my account, also reportedly got caught with a handbag full of stolen credit cards about 12 months after we finished.

3) Dodgy African Woman who recently told me she stole money from work, and has borrowed money left right and center failing to pay it back.

4) Dodgy African Guy, borrowed a car from another african woman I know. She has never seen the car since and the police were not ineterested because they failed to locate his address.


I admit its not a broad view, but my opinions can only be based on facts experienced and known to myself. No matter how much someone tells me the world is flat, I have found it to be different.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Probably. If people didn't assume that everything they didn't like was a direct attack on their freedoms and try to change it through the courts it might very well be better.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

True that :tu:

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

my two cents, why cant we all just live as decent human beings, i dont believe a ban will solve anything but make relations between muslims and the municipality ever more strained.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

All these are ever based on is fear. People are afraid of these cultures and will justify it (even convince themselves) that is is due to some actual danger they pose.

In reality it is because they do have a fear of the culture, a culture they cannot understand, so they impose stupid bans like this in an effort to force these cultures into being more like them. They think this will make the cultures easier for them to understand which in turn may take away some of there fears.

As usual it is the fear of the unknown that is driving this, nothing else.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

It doesn't always follow that fear is unfounded. What if it is fear of the known ?

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Only a fool IMO. It seems like a fantastic idea, and one that all countries should adopt. The logic is simple enough: welcome to the country; if you don't abide by the rules, you are no longer welcome. Pretty straightforward really.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Such as?

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Well ... erm ... let's see ... off the top of my head ... oh yes .... terrorism.

Yeh that's the one !!! :dozey:

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Blunt and to the point, i like!

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Hardly typical of Muslims in general and certainly not justification for preventing people adhering to their beliefs as followers of one of the world's major religions.

Unless of course you think all Muslims are terrorists. And all Irish people. And all animal lovers etc etc etc

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

If I was to go to certain other countries and and get drunk in public I would get in trouble real bad trouble.If I was to sleep with someone elses wife I could get beheaded for it. In said other countries I would have to abide by there rules by there culture why should immigrants expect us or other countries to bend the rules for them.
If the Dutch wish to ban the Burka then its there right to do so in there country.Maybe it would be against there human rights but imo less against there rights than actions in other countries

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

I can understand her indignance follow a Muslim not shaking her hand on the ground she was a woman. That may be the custom where he lives but it is not the custom in the Netherlands or indeed, here. I understand the need to be tolerant and accommodating to other minority customs and practices but where they conflict with the host countyââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s customs then I feel the immigrants should acquiesce. Whether this applies to the wearing of Burkas is tricky. You could argue that security could be compromised in places as the identity is covered but I think this is linked to her annoyance of how those particular Muslims place women in the pecking order (maybe not the best expression) following the hand shaking episodeââ‚à ‚¬Ã‚¦.
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We need to be a bit more protective of our customs and ways. We've become so soft in certain areas that frankly, some minorities are taking the michael like a 3 year old finding how to exploit a parent.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

And the latest on this:

And this was when she went for a teaching job as Arabic teacher at the Islamic College in Amsterdam.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4349584.stm

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Agreed all muslims are not terrorists (similarly Irish and animal lovers), but that is not to say *most* terrorists (today) are not muslims. (Note the double negative !).

That is where the fear comes from. I don't know many people who can distuinguish terrorists from non terrorists just from appearances but knowing someone is a muslim must increase the suspicion ... IMO.

Also with regards to beliefs .. whether those beliefs are acceptable in this country depends on what those beliefs are and if they involve degradation of women or infidels.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

People might be more suspicuiouys through ignorance and stereotype - doesn't make it right though.

As I've said before, I hold no religious beliefs but I will respect those held by others as long as they don't impinge on my rights or those of others. I do not support subjugation of women; that's why I've never voted Tory or read the Daily Mail (except for professional purposes!) :) .

I've yet to come across a Muslim who has tried to inflict his/her beliefs upon me, which is more than can be said of throughly annoying Christian door knockers.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

I agree, however christian groups are normally trying to recruit due to dwindling numbers. Muslim groups as a general rule dont seem to encourage outsiders from joining their religion.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

No, but the (iirc) muslim council did make the point that atm all terrorists are muslims. (of course thats a bit of an exaggeration but it does show the extent of the problem when muslims say something like that about themselves)

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Doesnt nessesarily work in reverse tho does it?

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Hence that bit in brackets......? :D

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Have you got a link for that statement?

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

This is one of those "silly" threads. We all start off by discussing the Dutch proposal then end up with a malformed statement from the MCOGB that has absolutely no relevance!

Let's have a fair topic on the impact of forced multi-culturism and the effects (good or bad) it has had on the UK as a whole. It should not be based on colour or religion but what they have achieved and contributed to OUR culture.

I have some pretty strong points to make (some may call them generalisations) and i live in a town where the ethnic community has overtaken the indiginous population.

Let's not pussyfoot around this subject, it would be a good and proper guide to tolerance levels around the country.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Leaving aside the contentious used of the word forced there were, according to the 2001 census, 6,247 people from ethnic minorities in Pendle and just under 31,000 in employment alone, so not sure where your claim to live in somewhere where the ethnic population has overtaken the "indigenous" comes from.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

link

link

(My bad-that statement wasn't issued by the muslim council of britain but by Abdel Rahman al-Rashed, general manager of Al- Arabiya news channel. His article appeared in the pan-Arabic newspaper Al-Sharq Al-Awsat.)

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Why? At no point in history have the people of this country had a say as to how immigration is handled. I shall continue to say forced.

Do you want to read that again? I did say my town (Pendle is a Borough) and of course i could have supplied a link (two years ago) but, no such statistics apply to my town anymore.

If you can prove me wrong by finding the statistics for Nelson i will apologise :)

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Not easy to find statistics for Nelson alone, but the borough would appear to have circa 13,500 ethnic minorities in a population of 90.000.

88.2 percent of East Lancs as a whole is classed as white (remainder broken down into mixed, Asian or Asian British, Black or Black British, Chines or other group). In Pendle you have 76,000 whites, with 12,500 Asians and British Asians comprising the biggest ethnic group. In Lancashire 5 wards have ethnic populations above 30% - Nelson isn't one of them (unless Whitefield is your manor)

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

It is my "manor" and the information is taken from the last census. I can tell you now that the vast majority of crime reporting in the paper is all down to supposed British born muslims, does the census not mention the immigrant population on benefits?

Anyhow, this has nothing to do with the Dutch. Start a new thread on what forced multi-culturism has done for us and i'll reply to it.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Those figures are out of date, we are almost the end of 2005, so please use uptodate figures al lot can happen in 5 years.

http://www.optimumpopulation.org/opt.action.html
The link makes very interesting reading, unless some people don't agree.
A quote from the page:-
'About two-thirds of annual population growth is directly due to excess immigration (more in than out), with one third due to natural increase (more births than deaths). If allowed to continue, according to the Office of National Statistics, more than 80% of future population growth will be due to net inward migration. The consequences of this scale of population growth can clearly be seen in plans to build at least a million new homes in the South-East, many of them on greenfield sites or suburban sites.'

Recently on the ITV Teletext Pages, there was an item which said that 60% of the children born in London during 2004 - 2005 were born to foreign mothers. (I will try and find the link)
Awaiting your comment.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Er, you started the whole 'forced' multiculturalism thing remember? Reading the local rag is not exactly scientific and the old benefits argument reminds me of the cak the NF used to spout in the 70s when immigrants were both scrounging our benefits and taking our jobs.

Latest figures state immigrants make a net annual contribution of, I believe, £2.5bn.

EDIT: And how on earth could you know from newspaper reports whether somebody convicted is a British born Muslim?
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Think I'll stick with the Census rather than some dodgy looking right wing organisation if that's OK with you. Four (2005 minus 2001 = 4! ;) ) years in terms of the Census is not out of date.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

What if the 'local rag' uses reputable sources? Shouldn't you check that first before dismissing it out of hand?

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Shabba - and still nothing to suggest the majority in Nelson comprises ethnic minorities. Indeed far more evidence to suggest otherwise.
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No because I work with the media and consume news press voraciously. I've worked with the Nelson Leader in the past.

I've yet to come across a newspaper that identifies in court reports whether people are British born Muslims (unless of course it is relevant to the crime committed which would be exceedingly rare and hardly likely to account for the majority of crime in Nelson). Please do show me a newspaper that does though; it will be an education.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

imho it should be banned here as well , we were at a local shopping centre on sunday and there was a woman wearing a burka , even though you could only see her eyes she looked annoyed / ****ed off etc :mad:

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

So we should ban burkas because you saw a woman who looked annoyed? :confused:

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

just my personal opinion you understand ;)

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

I guess you say that mockingly however... There IS a definite pressure from within the community to conform to the Koran, and women do have to suffer subjugation from their husbands/fathers. Banning them wouldn't help what goes on behind closed doors, but could help women who leave the house. On the other hand, if the husbands/fathers are like that, if the government ban burkas, then will the husbands/fathers just prevent the women from leaving the house?

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

I do say it mockingly.

Whilst I take on board your concern for women who may be subjugated, Muslim women do wear the burka because of ther own faith. Ban the burka and you deny them the right to adhere to that faith. Denial of religious expression is not healthy in a democratic state.
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You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't see the logic.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

I do not like that statement. "Denial of religious expression is not healthy in a democratic state." what if it was voted for in a referendum and the vote went to ban the burka that then would be democratic would it not? but that would still be argued against

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Hmmmm................. interesting figure but I have to make the point that since we don't actually know how many illegal immigrants we have in this country, we have no way of knowing what they cost us in lost revenues......to weigh against that £2.5bn.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

I would be interested to see what percentage of our population is immigrants, and how that percentage figures compared to the annual contribution they put in (we are a trillion pound economy).

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Democracy is a somewhat more complicated than that.
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Who's employing illegal immigrants?

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

a family local to us are waiting to see if they will be deported, while they have been here, the children have done well at school & their father has actually become a school governor. Their case has been supported by petition and the local church - my wife's school would love some more parent governors, none apply - something is wrong with our society, but not all of it can be blamed on 'asylum seekers' et al ........ in my opinion.

- they tend to wear fairly 'westernised' clothes - e.g. dad is a Lawyer & has grey suit , etc

iirc his wife wears a scarf, but not a full concealment of her face & 'shape', which I understand to be the purpose of the burqa??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa

- as usual wikepedia is the db's

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

You mean that you don't know! :shocked:
The building and catering industries for starters.....

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Not to mention £150 for a fake passport from government workers, and another £150 for NI number and documentation. You only find these things out by talking to people who are illegally in this country.

How does someone come up with a figure for immigrants contribution to the economy?

In my experience immigrants spend as little as possible in this country, whilst either sending money back home to their family or buying property in their home country.

It does seem a little ironic that the same people who stand up for immigrants also criticise people in this country who buy property for investment purposes. Two of the immigrants that I have been directly involved with have done exactly that, they come here and earn 10 times the wages in their home country and buy property back home as a nest egg for their retirement.
They are generally very mean with spending money here because they try to live as cheaply as possible.

I would of thought contributing to the economy beside paying tax means spending some of that money on beer, fags, petrol and material items.
These immigrants do generally not re-invest as much money back into this coutries economy as British people.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Agriculture too.

My point is that the people employting illegal immigrants are often drawn from the indigenous community, people who run employment agencies which are deliberately casual in their checking of identity and people who pay cash in hand (to avoid tax and Ni, something which on other threads seems to be applauded). Some very big UK companies are complicit in this, but hide behind the fact that they use agency staff for whom agencies are responsible.
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Yeah, yeah. You say the immigrants you know whilst displaying an obvious contempt for them and spouting anecdotal evidence which appears more grounded in your own prejudices than in fact. You could, of course, look into the subject in a little more detail; gain some knowledge from the many resources that exist out there and which can be found with just a little help from Mr. Google.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

So that "2.5bn that you mentioned legal immigrants put into the economy is possibly eclipsed or dwarfed by the damage illegals do to our economy......

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Who profits most from the black economy? An illegal immigrant or an employer. Naturally it is impossible to accurately gauge the impact of illegal working by people, illegally or legally entitled to work here, indigenous or immigrant.

Not sure why we're discussing illegal immigration mind you.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Iâ₠¬ÃƒÆ’¢â€žÂ¢d like to try and put into some perspective my personal concerns about immigration in this country.

To my mind there are three main areas of concern.

• Terrorism

• Economy

• Society

I think it is generally agreed that most of the worlds terrorism these days is down to the various fundamentalist muslim groups. It is also a given that the majority of immigrants to the UK are of muslim persuasion. It is not rocket science to deduce that therefore a large number of immigrants could also be potential terrorists. Not good !

It is often stated that immigrants are vital to the UK and that they have a positive effect on the economy. A figure of £2.5bn is often quoted but this figure was carefully chosen by the Home Office in a period when public sector accounts were in surplus, plus they wrongly attributed Corporation Tax from residents abroad plus any effects of illegals and asylum seekers means this figure should probably read only £0.5bn - a drop in the ocean. It also does not take into consideration the effects on population. UK is overcrowded with 60m people and 250,000 immigrants per year (not including †˜illegalsâà ƒÆ’¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€ žÂ¢ of which 500,000 are admitted to be already here). We are already 12x more densely populated than USA and whilst it is true there is a greater percentage of immigrants in many European countries, on the whole they are far less densely grouped than in the UK. Donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t you think we have passed the UKââ‚ ¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s †˜optimum populationââ ¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢ ? It is calculated that 80% of projected future population growth will be due to immigrants and their birth rate. The effects on the infrastructure are difficult to assess but the strain on housing, law enforcement, border controls, transport, education, health etc are beginning to show. Donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t forget that of those immigrants who do work (their unemployment rate is twice that of the indigenous people) many take low paid jobs that force out British people. We should be training our own people rather than importing workers.

Lastly the effects on society as a whole is a contentious issue. It would be fair to say that it would be nigh on impossible to integrate 250.000 immigrants every year even if they wished to integrate. Most now live in inner city ghettos equivalent to those of the USA cities, displacing native people and forming an under class with very different religions and cultural values to our own, creating social problems for all of us. The problems of crime, violence, racial and religious tension (of which the wearing of the burka is only one manifestation), competition for jobs and housing are not going away any time soon. Many think immigrants restrict individual freedoms and democratic processes and are concerned that continued immigration is destroying respect for and love of, the history and traditions of the UK and through ethnic replacement, which may be leading to native British people losing control over their own country. The net effect IMO is the erosion of the institutions and values we have created for ourselves and ironically are those values which make the UK attractive to outsiders.

I have to say there are grounds for doubting both the viability and the desirability of multiculturalism. The most obvious outcome is the violence of civil disorder. It is an experiment that has gone seriously wrong.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

I have no interest in searching with Mr Google, I prefer to stick to the facts that I experience first hand.

We can all go and find some dubious facts that support our claim from Mr Google, no matter what our views are.

Fact... The vast majority of foreign workers come here to make lots of cash to spend back in their homeland. They do not contribute as much to the UK economy as british workers.

The government is not interested in persuing illegal workers with false NI numbers, because they are paying tax and NI and would be an admission that the illegal immigration problem is far worse than they would have us believe.

You can only judge whats going on by speaking to these people, not by reading other peoples biased views.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

You (and I) may think so .... but its founder has doubts :erm:

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

The majority of immigrants are "of the Muslim persusasion"? Do you have a stat for that? Most immigration to this country is from within the EU so I'm a litle dubious of that assertion.

Multiculturalism has failed? Well in that racism is prevalent and increasing, I guess so.

Terrorism? C'mon. You block Muslims from entering the country on the basis of the actions of a tiny, tiny minority of people who follow that faith?

Hardly surprising we are less densely populated than the US. The issue in the UK is almost exclusively in London and the SE and that is down to economic and planning policy.
Many believe immigrants restrict individual freedoms and democratic processes. Whilst they may believe that (see my point about the prevalence of racism) can you provide any evidence to suggest this is the case?
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We can find evidence, backed by research, which confirms, denies or challenges our opinions. You have made your mind up and no amount of hard evidence is going the change that. Always good to encounter an open mind

No it's not a fact, it's your opinion.

Again, fact or opinion?

Well I'm assuming these people are no longer here given your opinion of immigrants, especially illegal ones, I presume you've reported them, no doubt accompanied by a girlfriend ;) , to the authorities.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Shoot... I'm more than happy to contribute to your somewhat unrepresentative sample.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

My current girlfriend (for the past 18 months) is a filipino, she has spent 3 years legally in this country and spent around 3 years in Saudi before that. There is a very strong community of filipinos in Cardiff, with the majority (around 3000 I think) working for the health authority. I have met a lot of them at various parties I have been invited to, and they are a very close community.

They tend to be very keen on making a pound if they can, I think this is genarally due to coming from a background where there is a fair amount of poverty. They tend to take on a venture that will make a pound, where we wouldn't bother for such a small amount. If you need telephone cards Mr X buys them in bulk, Rice is bought in bulk by Mr Y and Booze is supplied by Mr Z. Thats how their community works.

They all seem to live in similar circumstances, my girlfriend shares a 3 bedroom house with 3 other filipino women with one downstairs room converted into the fourth bedroom. (an example of less contribution to the economy) They are all very similar in their goals, ie: to work as many hours as they can to send money back home and purchase property and businesses.

In the past 6 years my girlfriend has worked in foreign countries and bought numerous properties back home, in the last 18 months she has done the following.

*Started a taxi company with Tuk Tuks in Manila.

*Started a company distributing Coffee and Herbal Teas in Manila.

*Bought a piece of land in front of the government department in Manila where driving licences are issued to open a drug testing centre.

*Bought 20 acres of land, installed irrigation pumps and is currently growing vines.

*Bought a plot of land with 2 derelict bungalows.

*Bought a house overlooking the bay in Manila.

The 4 of them share a house and work as many hours as they can manage to basically become property magnates in their own country, this is the general trend amongst all her associates that I have met attending many parties and BBQ's with them. (PS: They eat rice at BBQ's)

The illegal immigrant that I reported has to my knowledge not been found, she like most of them uses many different names and moves around a lot after coming over here on a fake South African passport.
After making many enqiries about her and her friends, by some very underhanded methods I was able to learn a lot more about illegal Zimbabweans in this country, I have even seen an illegal passport and some other illegal South African and Zimbabwean documentation.

I believe my small experience is the tip of a very large iceberg.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

2003 stats indicate 71% of immigrants granted settlement originated from Asia or Africa ( source: Economic & Social Research Council). Countries whose populations are 90% to 100% Muslim include Afghanistan, Algeria, Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Libya, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Niger, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Somalia, Syria, Tajikistan, Tunisia, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, and Yemen (source: Middle East Policy Council). Note that most of these are Asia, Arab and African countries (plus some East European for good measure).


Probably unreasonable to most PC people, but still we are importing the enemy amongst us.

How about the Prevention of Terrorism Act, stop & search, ID cards, 90 day detainment without arrest. IMO all come about with increase in terrorism and immigrant presence.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Do you have a link for the ESRC data please? Some food for thought in the meantime:

"For the past five years we have had 150,000 or so more people immigrating EACH YEAR than emigrating. What Migration Watch doesn't tell you is that this migration has been cyclical and that during much of the postwar period we lost population. Where were they then, lamenting that we were losing a city the size of Birmingham every five years?

But who are these people? The stats used by Michael Howard in support of his "I Believe" conceal some interesting subtleties. Take 2003. In that year 362,000 people left and 513,000 came in - a difference of 151,000. Of those departing, 191,000 were Brits and 171,000 were foreigners. And of those coming in, 277,000 were British returnees and 246,000 were Auslanders . Bear with me. That means that 88,000 more Brits came in than went out and 75,000 more outsiders. Sooo... more than half of that city the size of Birmingham is made up of excess returning Britons.

But the other half is not all knife-wielding Kurds, pimping Albanians and benefit-defrauding West Africans. Of 2003's foreign workers in the UK, 519,000 were from EU states, 127,000 from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, 87,000 were Aussies and Kiwis, 72,000 were Americans, and 500,000 were from other countries, most notably the Philippines, Japan and South Africa.

Still with me? Because this is where it gets interesting. When Michael Howard says that the problem is not ethnicity but numbers - and given that asylum seekers will now make up only about a quarter of the net inflow - the implication is that he will crack down significantly on all these EU, US, Australian and Filipino wannaworks...." http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1397647,00.html

And that Brum suggestion has also been shown to be highly misleading here: http://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/quote.jsp?id=165

And the dangers of such a blurring of the lines regarding immigration (which so often hides a racial agenda, though not terribly well).

"I feel the shadows closing in. In Sittingbourne on Friday night, 2,000 residents, interlaced with members of the BNP, turned up at a meeting called by the council to discuss the establishment of short-term accommodation for asylum-seekers undergoing induction. Many accused asylum-seekers of high levels of criminality, of wanting to poison the water supply, of depriving British people of health facilities, of sexually harassing indigenous women and of terrorism. What is one to do with such unreason? " This is of course, from an opinion piece so not fact as such!
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comme...882497,00.html






Ah, if in doubt, throw out the PC line



That the Govt are acting like loons is not the fault of immigrants.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

http://www.esrcsocietytoday.ac.uk/ES...ts/index1.aspx

Well we could throw stats and figures around all day, but can you deny there are a great many immigrants entering UK daily and most are muslim.

Fact: terrorists and illegals are entering the UK.
Fact: there are those amongst us who will protect the rights of the wrongdoing minority, in the name of correctness, at the expense of the law abiding majority.

I take it then you perceive no threat ?

Can I ask you - Do you welcome unregulated immigration, immigration with strict regulation, deportation of failed assylum seekers, deportation of illegal immigrants.

How do you feel about the rights of all / any EU resident (think what that extends to now and in the future) to arrive in the UK, to work or not and enjoy the same benefits as native Britons.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Perhaps you could explain your meaning of "Wannaworks" are you talking about people who come to this country with a job already obtained, or ones who arrive here with no job. You will find that people such as the filipinos who have to take conversion courses in their own country before they are allowed to work on the UK health service, are very annoyed about immigrants turning up here and not being expected to follow the procedures like they did.


"Sexually harassing indigenous women" Yes I have seen it, so has many other people. Just go into a city centre bar like "Life" "Walkabout" "Kiwis" "Lava Lounge" etc in Cardiff and look at those Kurds who dont wash mauling and groping women. I have had many women come upto me and chat because they are trying to get away from the perverted passport seeking creeps.

Oh and when the womans boyfriend takes exception and lays one on them its called a racist attack.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Thanks - interesting source which also shows the highest recorded outflow of migrants from the UK to the EU; the highest level of immigration and emigration for a decade (global movement gaining pace?) and net migration at just 150,000; that 28% of employers seeking to employ migrants, with the number rising to 40% for organisations employing over 500 people; Iraq, Zimbabwe and Afghanistan toping the asylum application list (can you spot any connection there?); only 13,000 people were granted asylum in 2003.

Yes, most migrant recruiters are in London; as I said before this is a conseqnence of economic not immigration policy.

We could.... but I'm grateful for the fact that your are supporting your opinion with some evidence. I don't agree with your analysis mind ;) I don't mean to sound patronising saying that and hope you don't take it that way; I'm just tired of people submitting empty posts that simply reveal their prejudices rather than their knowledge Well yes because net immigration levels are not excessively high and, as Aaronovitch pointed out, migration is cyclical


In response - an opinion; in suggesting we shou;d keep out all Muslims and bar expression of the faith, we are over-reacting.
No, that's an opinion, not fact. An opinion not borne out by reality I might add (in my opinion!)



More concerned about getting run over by a lunatic driver frankly; it's called risk assessment

Who said anything about unregulated immigration? All I seek is a fair system which takes into account the real risk of persecution which people may face (in places like Congo, Zimbabwe etc to where we are currently repatriating with seemingly gay abandon) and does not discriminate according to race.

Well we are free to do the same across Europe. Do you think the word 'union' implies anything like, I don't know, unity?

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Yep, that's best... stick with something less up-to-date, that happens to support your views more strongly...:rolleyes:
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Not really. A motion is proposed, it is voted on, and either passed or not. Hardly complicated.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

I didn't say it. See above; fair and just system


So born and bred Brits don't sexually harass each other? Blooming Australians coming over here, importing their culture and undermining our Great British Way Of Life :rolleyes: Don't wash? - no entry restrictions in these establishments then? Go to any town or city centre pub and you'll see drunk, leery, lairy blokes harassing and/or fighting. Hardly exclusive to Kurds is it? Perhaps they're just trying to adopt the Great British Way of Life :) Every cloud eh.

Surely you're not advocating or supporting the use of violence which is, of course, illegal and therefore you would be in breach of CF's T&Cs.
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No I'll stick to stats which are presented without a political agenda and are drawn from a survey of the entire nation :rolleyes:
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An extraordinary example of political illiteracy.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Stats which just "happen" to support your own agenda?

And illiteracy? Oooooh! Nasty sentiment from a self-confessed bigot, whose jealous tendencies and hypocrisy have been exposed elsewhere...:D

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Stats which are independent of my and your opinions

Oooh, gosh, you have cut me down to size. 1. Political illiteracy, nt illiteracy. Not a nasty sentiment, but an opinion of your understanding of political mechanisms. If you think democracy begins and ends in majority voting then you are indeed in need of an education. 2. No, you called me a bigot, not me. I disagreed with your analysis - as did from memory at least one other poster - but it doesn't bother me that you throw such nonsense about. 3. I'm certainly not a hypocrite, but I am opinionated and seek to justify my opinions with reasoned argument.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

just to take this back to the initial question about the views of the Dutch stance, personally I see nothing wrong with what they are proposing. At the end of the day, it is in Holland, and nowhere else. Surely the Dutch are intitled to have a country that THEY rule?

A point was also made early on in the tread about the dutch having seen the way over tolerance has made things in other countries. It made me think, our monarchy are meant to be defenders of the faith, but what faith are they defending these days?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not prejudice against race / religion, etc. To be honest, I don't really follow religion myself, so I'm in no position to put down any sort of religion and would not attempt to do so, but I do feel this country (or the UK as a whole) has become far too obsessed with pleasing every other culture to the point it seems to steer away from pleasing the christians / English. For instance, in recent years, some schools have banned the flying of St. Georges cross during sports events and St. Georges day incase it upsets other cultures. Now there's this whole thing of banning 'Father Christmas' for the same reason. Who's country is this these days??? Can't fly The English flag in England? Come on...

I think that this is exactly the kind of thing the Dutch are trying to prevent before it's too late, and fair play to them, I say.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

1. Your opinion, not mine.
2. You said you were happy to be called one - want a link?
3. So you criticise others for doing something that you then admit you would like to do yourself? Sounds hypocritical to me...

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

That was in 2003. I believe the popular figure now is 250,000 net.

Cheap imported labour. Good for business and Govt, but bad for natives looking for work.

But how many denied asylum still remain here, including those using UK Tax payers cash to fight their case ?

Irrelevant .. there are ghettos all over UK. Birmingham, Leicester, Bradford.

I don't know the answer to this, maybe better immigration checks. All I do know is I am uncomfortable living alongside foreigners who could well be harbouring bad if not lethal thoughts about my fellow natives and our beliefs.

We'll have to agree to differ. I see many people supporting illegals right to challenge our immigration laws and Tax funded legal challenges in the Courts.

That is a risk at least you have *some* control over by being aware whilst on the roads. Suicide bombers give no warning and as I said you can't identify a terrorist until the bomb has gone off.

Likewise, but it appears to be very inefficient at present, possibly due to underfunding and overload.

IMO it appears the majority coming in are from the poorest EU nations of the old Communist Block, what are called economic migrants. It would be unusual if there was an equal exchange of Brits going out there. A great many of those from these countries are poorly educated and rely on UK Benefits.

My wife was recently in college alongside a Rumanian girl who stated that if she stayed in tertiary education for 3 years (free to her of course) she then also qualified for free housing. How can that be right ?

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Really? A recent court case might suggest otherwise... :rolleyes:

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

A welcome intervention by the courts to temper political ineptitude. Sadly the political intent shows no sign of diminishing in the face of a never ceasing onslaught by people who believe that the UK is "a soft touch" and sections of the media who never cease to demonise immigrants and asylum seekers.

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

An intervention that shows your post to have been inaccurate, or misleading, or both. My word, you get more accuracy in a tabloid!

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Where does that figure come from?



Labour is an international commodity whether, in the UK's case, from immigration, emigration (don't forget) and outsourcing. I do not like the exploitation of cheap labour but we are all complicit - including me - in that we all buy from supermarkets, use NTL (with its outsourced labour) etc



Don't know, for obvious reasons.



There are deprived areas all over the UK. I thought a key criticism of immigration/economic policy was overpopulation - which, if anything, is centred in the South East.



The answer to me is not to stereotype Muslims because of the actions of others and to be realistic and pragmatic about the risk and how it is addressed.



Not challenging our immigration laws but ensuring they applied correctly and fairly.



I'm just being pragmatic. I'm much, much, much more likely to be run over. And of course I have very litle control over other drivers.



It is unsatisfactory, whether that's due to overload I'm unsure. Certainly asylum applications have fallen.



You're not harking back to the scare stories dating back to EU enlargement are you?

She may not be correct?
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No. You can try and twist my words all you want. It reflects poorly on you but that is not my problem

Re: Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?
 

Not twisting anything. You posted something inaccurate; no, blatantly wrong. I proved it. No problem for me. Problem for you though, as it shows you are not as right as you would like to think. Also unfortunate for you that, unlike the Guardian, you can't print an apology the next day... :rofl: