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Paul K 30-09-2005 10:01
Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
BBC
Quote:
Uninsured drivers are to face automatic fines of at least £60 in an attempt to reduce rising levels of illegal driving in the UK.
New laws being announced by the government will give police access to insurance company records.
Currently police have to catch uninsured drivers using their cars in order to prosecute them.
But the new powers will make it illegal to own a car without insuring it or declaring that it is not being used.
As well as the fines, the new powers will mean uninsured drivers could have their vehicles seized or crushed.
Quote:
The planned change will mean police can automatically send out fines based on insurance company records.
Cameras that can read number plates - such as those used in London's congestion charging zone - will also be used to trap uninsured drivers.
Even if this move only takes 50% of the uninsured idiots off the road it has to be a good thing.

Derek 30-09-2005 10:04
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Yep,

After seeing the hassle my G/F went through when someone uninsured hit her this gets a :tu: from me.

SMHarman 30-09-2005 10:08
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
So how is that different to now, I got a £60 fine for failing to return my SORN on time. If you don't have a cover note (or MOT) you cannot get your road tax, whats the news here? Why has it taken 8 years of Labour government to think about getting tough on this?

Angua 30-09-2005 10:56
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMHarman
So how is that different to now, I got a £60 fine for failing to return my SORN on time. If you don't have a cover note (or MOT) you cannot get your road tax, whats the news here? Why has it taken 8 years of Labour government to think about getting tough on this?
Agree. A neighbour frequently seems to be in possession of cars with out of date tax discs, so unlikely to be insured.

If you have no MoT your car is not insured. Perhaps there now needs to be a better check kept on cars having an MoT.

NitroNutter 30-09-2005 11:12
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua
Agree. A neighbour frequently seems to be in possession of cars with out of date tax discs, so unlikely to be insured.

If you have no MoT your car is not insured. Perhaps there now needs to be a better check kept on card having an MoT.
sorry but this is not quite correct, if your car is not of a satisfactory road worthy condition your car is not covered even by a valid policy, it is set out this way because a MOT certificate is only proof of road worthiness the moment it is issued, (and even then is no guarantee), how ever a car can be without an MOT ie its juts expired and has not yet been renewed but the vehicle can still be of a satisfactory and safe condition, where as many with a current MOT have infact deteriated beyond road worthiness and need attention. Of course not having a current MOT is an offence, but it having one or not does not reflect the condition of the vehicle, nor its insurable cover with your insurance schedule.

What does concern me with this is, are the type of people who on a continual basis drive without insurance etc, now going to shop for cars from the scrap yard which are almost certainly going to be in a dangerous condition, as this is where they are likley to return soon anyway and will be picked up far cheaper than most 2nd hand rotboxes, that may still have some roadworthiness about them. Really a law also needs to be introduced to stop scarp dealers selling complete cars to joe public, but that would bring about a big problem with claimants wanting salvage (to purchase back their written of car), which does return insurance companies funds, and thereby helps to a certain extent of keeping premiums lower, higher premiums may mean more uninsured drivers.

Jon M 30-09-2005 11:25
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
£60 fine isn't good enough IMO, they should at the very least have their vehicle empounded until valid insurance is produced and ideally given a criminal conviction that stays on their record.

marky 30-09-2005 11:28
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua
Agree. A neighbour frequently seems to be in possession of cars with out of date tax discs, so unlikely to be insured.

If you have no MoT your car is not insured. Perhaps there now needs to be a better check kept on card having an MoT.
they do all new mot,s have a computer print out instead of being hand written and the info put on a national database ;)

me283 30-09-2005 11:31
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
It's a nice idea, bt on further thought I can't say I'm that impressed with the move. Uninsured drivers are a concern, but this £60 fine will not impact the real dangers of people who don't register their car in the first place.

Secondly, going by the computer is not foolproof. There is a central register of vehicles covered by insurance companies, and I recently asked my insurers to check this register for the car which struck me - I did not claim on my own insurance, and the other driver refused to provide his details later on. The vehicle concerned was not shown. This may be because it was a "fleet vehicle" ie the company had a policy that covered "any vehicle in it's possession/ being used for it's business". These policies are becoming rarer, as most insureres ask you to state precise vehicle details now.

Finally, this does not address the real proble. An uninsured driver will now (potentially) be fined £60, which doesn't help the driver of the car that is hit by the uninsured driver; what it does help is the government's finances. Some help that is.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon M
£60 fine isn't good enough IMO, they should at the very least have their vehicle empounded until valid insurance is produced and ideally given a criminal conviction that stays on their record.
That is a much better idea IMO... but it doesn't earn Tony's lot a whole heap of money in fines :rolleyes:

Pierre 30-09-2005 11:44
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Absolutely nowhere near harsh enough.

Once again the government are shown to be weak, imposing weak penalties.

Let me see:

Pay anywhere typically between £300 - £2500 in insurance

Or don't pay insurance and if you happen to get caught pay £60.

:rolleyes:

If you caught driving without insurance it should be a minimum £1000 fine and automatically banned for a year.

ZrByte 30-09-2005 11:58
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
BBC


Even if this move only takes 50% of the uninsured idiots off the road it has to be a good thing.
The bit I dont get is where this leaves people in my situation, we have my old car uninsured but taxed right outside our house, the way I understand it I could be vulnrable to this new fine yet I dont see what I have done thats illegal :shrug:

marky 30-09-2005 12:00
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZrByte
The bit I dont get is where this leaves people in my situation, we have my old car uninsured but taxed right outside our house, the way I understand it I could be vulnrable to this new fine yet I dont see what I have done thats illegal :shrug:
If its parked on the road it needs to be insured if its on the drive then no ;)

ZrByte 30-09-2005 12:05
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marky
If its parked on the road it needs to be insured if its on the drive then no ;)
I dont see why, if its parked on the road it needs to be roadworthy and taxed (12month mot and 5 months tax would seem to suggest it fills those criteria). Maybe its just something I havent thought of but I dont see how it could possibly need insuring if it is just sitting outside my house waiting to be collected by an auction.

marky 30-09-2005 12:08
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZrByte
I dont see why, if its parked on the road it needs to be roadworthy and taxed (12month mot and 5 months tax would seem to suggest it fills those criteria). Maybe its just something I havent thought of but I dont see how it could possibly need insuring if it is just sitting outside my house waiting to be collected by an auction.
If a car(1) parked in front of it and car(2) hit your car , wich caused you car to hit car(1) car(1) would have to go through your insurance, if that makes sense :erm:

altis 30-09-2005 12:14
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
We could have a national 3rd party insurance based on a petrol levy.

Inescapable!

Drive further - pay more tax.

Drive a big car - pay more tax.

Great theory but I can't ever see it being accepted.

ZrByte 30-09-2005 12:16
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marky
If a car(1) parked in front of it and car(2) hit your car , wich caused you car to hit car(1) car(1) would have to go through your insurance, if that makes sense :erm:
That does make sense though the reason I didnt think of that one was because I always thought it was the person who caused the accident in the first place who everybody would claim from, unless my vehicle was on the road and it was further driver error from myself that caused me to hit the next vehicle.
Now if I understood your example correctly you just mean that car (1) would go through my insurance either to claim off me so my insurance can claim off car (2) insurance or just go through my insurance company to claim from car (2). I just dont see why that is needed :shrug:

marky 30-09-2005 12:32
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Even though your insurance wouldnt part with a penny its just the way it is, but without it both companys would be after you, because you car should not be there.:spin:

Ramrod 30-09-2005 12:40
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
A step in the right direction but I agree that the fine needs to be higher and a ban should also be imposed as well........

marky 30-09-2005 12:42
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
I wonder how many have licences to lose with a ban.

ZrByte 30-09-2005 12:43
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marky
Even though your insurance wouldnt part with a penny its just the way it is, but without it both companys would be after you, because you car should not be there.:spin:
The irony is that I have a driveway at my disposal but since it is just under half a mile away I have no way of getting the car there without insuring it. Since every 1 day cover company I have seen wont touch a car over 10 years old I cant even get it insured in the short-term :)
No matter really though since its getting collected at the end of next week.

Angua 30-09-2005 12:46
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marky
Even though your insurance wouldnt part with a penny its just the way it is, but without it both companys would be after you, because you car should not be there.:spin:
If it is legally parked on the road and has a current tax disk then the car has every right to be there. If it did not have a tax disk but did have a SORN it could be towed away. It is the Tax that entitles the car to be on the public highway.

SMHarman 30-09-2005 12:51
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZrByte
I dont see why, if its parked on the road it needs to be roadworthy and taxed (12month mot and 5 months tax would seem to suggest it fills those criteria). Maybe its just something I havent thought of but I dont see how it could possibly need insuring if it is just sitting outside my house waiting to be collected by an auction.
It is on public property, not private.
It is on a road so should be roadworthy (hence the word)
Road tax entitles a car to use the "queens highway" to drive on it or park on it.

marky 30-09-2005 12:53
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua
If it is legally parked on the road and has a current tax disk then the car has every right to be there. If it did not have a tax disk but did have a SORN it could be towed away. It is the Tax that entitles the car to be on the public highway.
Nope it needs at least 3rd party liability insurance or it is not legally parked , That is why you need insurance to tax a car ;)

Angua 30-09-2005 12:55
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marky
Nope it needs at least 3rd party liability insurance or it is not legally parked , That is why you need insurance to tax a car ;)
The local abandoned vehicle chap will not tow a vehicle away with a current tax disk (even though he does liase with the local police and could well be able to find out if the insurance is up to date). :shrug:

marky 30-09-2005 12:58
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua
The local abandoned vehicle chap will not tow a vehicle away with a current tax disk (even though he does liase with the local police and could well be able to find out if the insurance is up to date). :shrug:
That cant work, because a car can be insured with a motor traders policy, so the actual car is not on the policy, :spin:

MovedGoalPosts 30-09-2005 12:59
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
Absolutely nowhere near harsh enough.

Once again the government are shown to be weak, imposing weak penalties.

Let me see:

Pay anywhere typically between £300 - £2500 in insurance

Or don't pay insurance and if you happen to get caught pay £60.

:rolleyes:

If you caught driving without insurance it should be a minimum £1000 fine and automatically banned for a year.
You are on the right lines, but in fact it should be more your fine is the cost of a years insurance policy (whatever that might be) plus the penalty fine, plus the driving ban.

Worth noting that many who drive uninsured are also banned. If you don't have a vaild licence, by definition, you will be uninsured.

Angua 30-09-2005 13:00
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marky
That cant work, because a car can be insured with a motor traders policy, so the actual car is not on the policy, :spin:
But he does know who the owner is and chases them to remove said car.

me283 30-09-2005 13:18
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marky
That cant work, because a car can be insured with a motor traders policy, so the actual car is not on the policy, :spin:
Motor trader policies are having stronger restrictions placed on them these days. Also, you can no longer tax a vehicle using a trader's policy, unless the vehicle is registered to the trader himself.

TigaSefi 30-09-2005 13:39
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Seriously why are you all continually surprised that Labour often churn out ill thought out and badly conceived "plans" and laws? They are the most incompetence government i have lived under so far and that saying something since I have been livin' since '75!!!!

me283 30-09-2005 13:50
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Like I said before, I see this as another revenue stream a la speed cameras. Yes it will catch some offenders, but the worst ones will not be caught. Meanwhile, Gordon's money chest gets a timely top up.

NitroNutter 30-09-2005 17:25
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
What really gets me is theres been an easy way to administer MOT/Insurance and road fund licence yet how ever many governments have been in power since the introduction of these requirements not one of them has thought how to combat the problem in a clear and concise way.

Today you can get a dodgy MOT pretty easy, you can go buy an insurance policy 3rd party only basic cover saying you only do 2000-3000 miles a year, and there by the monthly premiums are cheaper, you pay the first payment usually mounting to about 2 months, get your Tax disc and now it appears your all legal.

And thats the ones who arent blatantly driving around with nothing.

The way to do this so reducing who is getting away with either is pretty simple. And even easier today if theres now a national MOT database.

Abolish road fund licence as we know it.
Add a 1p per litre to cover a portion of the lost licence,
add a few % to the Vehicle insurance premium Tax to ensure the government break even.
Insurance cannot be obtained without the vehicle having a valid MOT in the database, the underwriters would have access to that database. The underwriters then send out an Insurance disc similar to the Tax disc of today, if the 12 months are paid up front then the disc covers that, if the premium is paid by DD then a maximum of a quartely Insurance disc is automatically sent out as and when required. As the MOT database will also have milage details no milage tricks can be pulled either.
An underwriter has to be government approved anyway so have as much credibility as a post office
This is now a fair Tax as those who drive less pay less by the fuel and reduced milage insurance, but obviously pay some more if they have a higher grouped car for insurance.

me283 30-09-2005 18:03
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NitroNutter
What really gets me is theres been an easy way to administer MOT/Insurance and road fund licence yet how ever many governments have been in power since the introduction of these requirements not one of them has thought how to combat the problem in a clear and concise way.

Today you can get a dodgy MOT pretty easy, you can go buy an insurance policy 3rd party only basic cover saying you only do 2000-3000 miles a year, and there by the monthly premiums are cheaper, you pay the first payment usually mounting to about 2 months, get your Tax disc and now it appears your all legal.

And thats the ones who arent blatantly driving around with nothing.

The way to do this so reducing who is getting away with either is pretty simple. And even easier today if theres now a national MOT database.

Abolish road fund licence as we know it.
Add a 1p per litre to cover a portion of the lost licence,
add a few % to the Vehicle insurance premium Tax to ensure the government break even.
Insurance cannot be obtained without the vehicle having a valid MOT in the database, the underwriters would have access to that database. The underwriters then send out an Insurance disc similar to the Tax disc of today, if the 12 months are paid up front then the disc covers that, if the premium is paid by DD then a maximum of a quartely Insurance disc is automatically sent out as and when required. As the MOT database will also have milage details no milage tricks can be pulled either.
An underwriter has to be government approved anyway so have as much credibility as a post office
This is now a fair Tax as those who drive less pay less by the fuel and reduced milage insurance, but obviously pay some more if they have a higher grouped car for insurance.
Well it's not a bad idea. One other benefit would be that if you have an accident you can see the other car's insurance details immediately (sore point with me at the moment!). However, it could also be open to abuse, on the insurance side of things.

Jules 30-09-2005 20:16
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
I think that any one caught driving a car without insurance should have the car taken off them untill they can prove it is insured

AndrewJ 30-09-2005 20:20
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
So if I going through my test bought a car ( which i plan on doing ) for when I pass and have to park it on my road.

I would have to insure it? or declare it?

Jules 30-09-2005 20:24
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
As far as I know if it is on the road it has to be taxed and insured even if you do not drive it

me283 30-09-2005 20:26
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
As far as I know if it is on the road it has to be taxed and insured even if you do not drive it
That's right. And to tax it, you must have insurance and valid MOT.

marky 30-09-2005 20:30
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
But on the bright side saxo, A person that has held a full uk driving licence for over 3yrs can sit in the passenger seat while you drive ;)

Russ 30-09-2005 20:31
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
I think that any one caught driving a car without insurance should have the car taken off them untill they can prove it is insured
No, I wouldn't be happy with that. If I was on my way to work or another important appointment and was pulled over by the police for a spot check only to find the database which stores my details was incorrect which made it appear I was uninsured then I'd be more than a little annoyed to have my car taken away.

marky 30-09-2005 20:34
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
I think that any one caught driving a car without insurance should have the car taken off them untill they can prove it is insured
I take it thats after the 7 days you get to produce your insurance ;)

me283 30-09-2005 20:36
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marky
I take it thats after the 7 days you get to produce your insurance ;)
I was in Poland last week, and it is the law there that you must have your insurance with you at all times. If you are stopped and you cannot produce it, the police may impound the car on the spot. They don't always do it, but they have the power to.

AndrewJ 30-09-2005 20:36
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marky
But on the bright side saxo, A person that has held a full uk driving licence for over 3yrs can sit in the passenger seat while you drive ;)
Could be handy :) really if I need to dump it off road will use my parents unused driveway lol.

I fancy a TD engined car about M reg but less then £500, not bothered about dings and dangfs just mechanically sound with power steering.

marky 30-09-2005 20:45
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
I think the whole insurance database is a great idea, it would save police time in stopping people for spot checks, and then if they do stop you, you still have 7 days just incase theres a mistake.

zoombini 30-09-2005 20:50
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
IMO this won't make much difference.
Those thatd rive without it will just not pay up anyway.

Jules 30-09-2005 21:25
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
It should be made law that you carry your documents or maybe photocopies of them at all times

Angua 30-09-2005 21:28
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
It should be made law that you carry your documents or maybe photocopies of them at all times
If photocopies they should be signed by a notary (to make sure they are not forged).


BTW Jules :notopic: nice to see you back from your hols :tu:

MovedGoalPosts 30-09-2005 21:41
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Insurers already work with the police to maintain a database linked to the PNC system which police can access which indicates if a car might be uninsured.

Problem is that in this country it is a given right that we are not obliged to carry any driving documents with us. Technically if a police officer asks a driver to show his licence, the failure to provide is an offence, but the 7 day wonder process is the legal get out.

Blame the civil liberties bods who would object very strongly to us carrying any driving documents, licence, insurance, etc, just like they object to anyone having to carry the Identity cards if they come in (which IMO would make those pointless - but that's :notopic:). Changing that arrangement would be a major change in UK law, one that is most unlikely.

marky 30-09-2005 21:42
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
It should be made law that you carry your documents or maybe photocopies of them at all times
:idea: I got it a chip & pin driving licence with all info on it :D

Russ 30-09-2005 21:55
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
It should be made law that you carry your documents or maybe photocopies of them at all times
It is law that you carry your documents with you when in the car but you get 7 days' grace to produce them if you don't have them on you when stopped by the police.

Chrysalis 30-09-2005 22:18
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Have you ever thought the reason they got away with it for so long is that more petrol is sold which means more tax is paid?

marky 30-09-2005 22:21
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Sorry if this is slightly off topic, but do you still get 14 days to tax a car :confused:

Russ 30-09-2005 22:22
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marky
Sorry if this is slightly off topic, but do you still get 14 days to tax a car :confused:
No, that's not slightly off topic at all. It's VERY off topic.

And no you don't.

me283 30-09-2005 23:43
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marky
Sorry if this is slightly off topic, but do you still get 14 days to tax a car :confused:
That's a common myth.

I like the idea of a chip and pin licence/insurance card; but how would it be updated?

homealone 01-10-2005 00:05
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
I like the idea of a chip and pin licence/insurance card; but how would it be updated?
at a pin enabled petrol pump - pepp, for short ;) :cool:

me283 01-10-2005 00:07
Re: Uninsured drivers face crackdown
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homealone
at a pin enabled petrol pump - pepp, for short ;) :cool:
Sorry, I wasn't very clear with my question. What I meant was, how would the card be updated with insurance details? If it were the same card as the driving licence, that is?


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