Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/s...re/4285488.stm
The lowest of the low:mad: , if found guilty they should be put away for a long time.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Their actions were a little bit drastic, but their cause is admirable IMO. :shrug:

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Lets just hope these bullies get what they deserve.

Whilst I do not approve of experimentation on animals, I abhor bullies even more, there is never a justification for it.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Sorry to disagree with you (no change there then ;)) OB, but "a little bit drastic" is not what I'd call that.

The way that family has been treated by some (not all) of the campaigners/activists is nothing short of criminal.

To me it's utterly hypocritical to treat fellow human beings in a worse way than the treatment they claim is being given to the animals in their care.

I am fully behind anyone that wants to treat animals properly, but when there are people in our world dying of starvation or suffering in other very preventable ways, you have to wonder what kind of twisted individual spends all their waking hours doing something like this instead of helping their fellow man. (I'm not saying it's a worthless pursuit, I'm just pointing out the seemingly misguided priorities)

I don't know first hand, the conditions or treatment of the guinea pigs at this farm. But I doubt very much that they're being treated like the family that own them. :mad:

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

What exactly did they hope to achieve? Why dig up someone's remains? That is disgusting, sick, and depraved. I wonder what the maximum sentence is?

As for their cause OB, what exactly was it?

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

To stop the family (the lady was related to) breeding animals for testing. I don't agree with what they did, but I certainly agree with their cause.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

And of course you're absolute and undeniably safe in the knowledge that nothing you've bought in your entire life has been tested on animals.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

How anyone can condone this, apart from the body snatching.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

And no medical treatments required by you or members or your family were tested on animals as well.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Please feel free to open a thread on animal rights, I opened this one to highlight the **** that desecrated the last resting place of an old lady.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

I only buy products that state that neither the product or the ingredients have been tested on animals. I also don't buy other products made by companies that do test on animals, such as Iams catfood (owned by Proctor and Gamble, who do test on animals). Good enough for you?
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Sorry marky. :)

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Well, they may believe in their cause, but that doesn't give them the right to act the way that they did. One assumes that what the family were doing was legal; whether it is moral in other people's eyes is another matter. The protestors could have taken the same course of action as you do; they could have campaigned for a change in the law; they could even have appealed to the family's better nature. But what can never be condoned is the range of actions taken against the family. Furthermore, digging up a dead relative's remains just goes beyond word; I would like to see the remains re-interred, ideally with these "campaigners" alongside them.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

I don't believe I once said it was legal, or that I condoned their actions. I support their cause though.

Campaigns to stop animal testing have been going for years, and despite there being alternatives to animal testing, no legislation has been brought forward to change things - nor does their appear to be any official support for this cause on the horizon. I don't agree with their actions, but they obviously felt they had nothing left to do. And lets face facts, it worked... :disturbd:

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

What about medication? A lot of medication that keeps people alive (cancer treatments for example) are tested on animals. There was a case a while ago when one of the leaders of these 'animal rights' hooligans was found out to be taking pills tested on animals and when asked she said 'Well, you cant expect me to just die' :td:

These people are sick, they are willing to let humans die, then bully and assault those who are trying to save life's. All the time thinking they are morally superior because they are saving an 'animal;. Well as the womens case shows, some tend to think different when its their lifes at stake

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Yes, sadly it did work.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

No medication I take comes from any labs that test on animals.

Sorry, did I miss abit of the article that says so?

There are plenty of ways to test nowadays that doesn't have to inlcude animals. The problem is, it's usually more expensive, which means a bit less profit.....

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Let's face it... they are terrorists, let them be tried as such.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

You categorise them with the fanatics that killed 50+ people on the 7th July?

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Categorise, yes; compare, no.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

?? Julian said Try them as terrorists - what, try them like the failed suicide bomber?

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

You have to admit there are a chilling number of similarities in respect of their preparedness to endanger, threaten and take lives to further their cause OB.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

They threatened. I don't think they're anywhere near like the suicide bombers, but that's my opinion. :shrug:

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Terrorism > Use of violence to achieve ends

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

They engineered a campaign of terror. Their means and methods were different, but they terrorised a family.

At the end of the day, whether you agree with the cause or not, it's sad that a family has been stopped from going about their lawful everyday lives, by the unlawful actions of others.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

I think it's a shame all round. A shame that the family couldn't do something a little more ethical than breed guinea pigs for testing, a shame that the protesters couldn't have protested in a more civil way, it's a shame some poor old lady has be exhumed in the most disgraceful and undignified way. But it's not a shame the business has closed down at all.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

That's debatable. However, whilst laws can be enforced, ethics can't. And let's not forget that the lady was just a relative, not even what the protestors would call an "offender".

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

No, it's not debatable, it's my opinion. Which I won't change.

Yes, I know she was a relative, thanks. Little point in them digging up a complete and utter stranger really... :erm:

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

I know this is off topic but i did a google on orangebird



From 1972 when Walt Disney Worldââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s Magic Kingdom opened, through the mid 1980ââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s, there was a concession stand in Adventureland called the Sunshine Terrace, where guests could get a Citrus Swirl.

The stand still exists, but the animatronic Orange Bird that turned his head and flapped his wings is gone.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

NO point in them digging up anyone. And so what, she was a relative? Do you think that makes it any more acceptable? In your opinion of course.

It is a shame that people who have not broken any laws have had to give in to a group of law-breaking, anarchic extremists. I hope they set up business elsewhere, and make a whole lot more profits than before. Oh, and that's my opinion, so it's not debatable.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

No!!!!! I've already said I don't agree with what they did. How many more times to I have to type it out??? :rolleyes:

I guess I know your stance on animal testing then....

I wouldn't be so arrogant to suggest it was. :)

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

None, Ever? Many Many medical treatments have been tested on animals. How would you know that no treatment you have ever taken has been tested on animals

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Because I know what I take, I know who produces the medication I take, and I know their stances on animal testing. :rolleyes:

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

You would possibly guess wrongly, as you don't know. Furthermore, that is not the issue here. The issue is about a group of freaks who think that disagreeing with somebody else's choice of job entitles them to terrorise and dig up bodies.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

No, you're right I don't know - I could only assume from :)

You say freaks, I say passionate, if a little extreme. :)

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

I'm trying to find a link atm... but afaik this family has tried to return to farming sheep/cattle etc.

The fanatics have said that this will still make them a legitimate target for action.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Let's hope their farming methods are little more ethical then.... :erm:

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

That merely states my attitude towards people in business. Legal business, I might add.

And if it's a question of definition, someone digging up a grave just yells "FREAK", IMO. But if you think that it's merely "a little extreme", then fair enough.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4708677.stm is a link to some of the story.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Don't you mean "pople who are a little extreme"? ;)
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And let's hope their legitimate business is hugely successful.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

I personally couldn't give a monkies about whether they have a sucessful business or not. :)

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

I just think it would be justice if their business were to do well, after the treatment they have suffered at the hands of passionate, slightly extreme, freaks; or should I just say, animals who don't deserve to be saved themselves. It would also be a reward for their courage in facing up to these bullies.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

That's the difference between you and I - I cannot overlook the type of business they run, therefore I'm glad it's closed, and I would not under any circumstances want them to do well running anything similar.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

There are a lot of businesses that I don't think are particularly pleasant, but "live and let live" and all that. Unfortunately the world can't be shaped to please or appease any one group od individuals.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Not good enough for me. I assume that you have never had medical treatment, and will refuse any medication or invasive hospital treatment that you might require in the future?

Not only do I condem the terrorists behind this, I condemn there cause. While I think its wrong to be in the furious persuit of elixir of life, to prevent HLS, and that Oxford University research laboratory from giving young, otherwise healthy, people, and children the chance to leave fulfilling and enriching lives is grotesque.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

What do these companies like the Body Shop test their products on? Humans?

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Sorry, I wasn't aware my ethics and subsequent actions were up for your verification... :rolleyes:

I do everything I can and obtain all the knowledge within my grasp to make sure I have no part of animal testing. The only medicatio I have is the contraceptive pill, which I know is produced by a pharmaceutical company who do not test on animals.

There are PLENTY of other ways to test - but the companies don't want the extra costs.
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Don't know, I don't shop there.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

It's more likely the pharmaceutical companies that don't want the cost, not the likes of this poor family who have had to put up with so much. Surely the protest should be against them?

Ethics are all very well, but where is the line drawn? Do these protestors think that animal testing (where at least some people see a tangible benefit) is wrong, but Hala butchers go untroubled? Do they attack people who wear sheepskin jackets? Do they firebomb factories that make shoes from leather? Do they attack anyone who uses a toothpaste that is made by a company who produce products tested on animals?

Or do they just dig up random bodies, knowing that it's probable that somewhere there will be a link with someone who has done something they don't agree with?

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

That's why I said "companies like", how do the companies you purchase from test their products?

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Timeline of this sorry saga......
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It seems that all the extremists are doing is forcing research with animals to be transferred abroad to countries with slacker laws regarding such research......bit of an own goal really.
link

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Yes, I suppose you could say they were "a little extreme"... :rolleyes:

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

There is no medication worth a damn that wasn't tested on animals at some point. Its a key step before it gets approved for testing on humans, and then approved for general use. Some may have been 40 years ago or more, but they still were.

Anyway, push come to shove, if your life, of the lives of your family and possible future children depended on it, your stance on this would go out the window.

Not really. Theory and computer simulations are all well and good, but you can never garantee that it would be safe, let alone work. The only way you can do that is with live animal testing. There are not enough humans available to test all the cures and medical procedures that we are persuing.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Unfortunately you picked the wrong company to hold up as an example. The Body Shop prides itself on "never" having tested on animals (only the human variety), unlike Boots for example.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Which means they will do more of it and raise the stakes higher... :(

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

It also means that the bullies won.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Is that testing of the final product as a whole, or testing of every single ingredient in the final product?

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

You should do your homework. There are plenty of other choices including use of cell cultures, corneal and skin tissue cultures, corneas from eye banks, and mathematical models. It's not about enough human volunteersd at all. It's about COST. If I eat a foxglove, I won't die. If my horse eats them, she will. I can't believe there are so many gullible people that trust the testing of chemicals, toxins etc intended for human use on animals. :dunce:

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Given the sources for most of the products I would say probably no part ever.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

All Tescos own brands claim that neither the ingredients or the final products are tested on animals.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

No, Animals. http://www.thebodyshopinternational....at_believe.jsp

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

I do do my homework. Sticking with your point... cell, corneal and skin tissue cultures, these solely and exlusively come from volunteer human donors? And what garantees are there that if these tissues react well, that it won't cause a problem elsewhere?

As was on here the other day, scientists are trying to 'cure' Down's syndrome babies. A worthwhile pursuit, I think. They are inducing Down's syndrome in other animals, to help understand how to cure it. How on earth can you cure Down's syndrome without animal experimentation? You just can't By the looks of it, what you are arguing for, will lead to more Thalidomide clones, where testing on animals was rushed, or just plain missed/faked. If Thalidomide was testing conclusively on animals, then we wouldn't have Thalidomide babies.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Nice..... :dozey:

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

What's so special about the 31st December 1990? Any animals before then were SOL?

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Erm, I'd trust the test on human skin rather than rabbits skin.... I really don't get why people think because a little drop of something didn't burn a rabbits eye out that it won't burn a humans out... :erm:

How does anyone manage to conclusively state that some chemical/product didn't make a guinea pig sick, so it won't make me sick?

No I am not arguing for that and frankly, that's a ridiuclous suggestion. :rolleyes: And by the by, why would there ever be a case of someone faking an animal test? :erm:

The Body Shop have been selling products (and the ingredients in them) for 15 years that have not been tested on animals. Yet I haven't seen a single bit of bad press about a product reating badly with a human.

There are plenty of other ways to test. By pharmaceuticals do not want to spend the money researching and developing them. End of.
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Nicer than this. :rolleyes:

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Should you ever (and lets hope not) need treatment for a serious illness would you refuse that treatment on the grounds of animal testing? (Most cancer and HIV treatments are products of animal testing. Even if the actual treatment wasnt tested on animals. The technology and science behind the pill would have been found out via animal testing)

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Damn right I would! I'm not some 14 year old veggie (because animals are cute etc...) I'm a 30 year old woman, who has strong beliefs and the courage of my convictions. I will not in anyway supoprt any company or product that tests on animals. Period.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

AFAIK the Body Shop do not sell medication as such. It's more beauty type products. What about real medication?

Of course, if the protestors feel so strongly about it, maybe those that are caught for the crimes in question should have testing done on them? It would be a fitting punishment, plus they would be able to say that they were preventing animal testing in some small way...

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

How about if it was a relative of yours and the decision was yours to make? :erm:

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Your ignorance is almost endearing....

Not testing on animals DOES NOT mean that humans have to queue up to have substances squirted in their eyes. Scientists mamaged to create a whole frigging sheep and grow a human ear on a mouse FFS. Whats stopping the pharamaceuticals from running similar studies and tests to create human tissue to test on????????????? :rolleyes:

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Can we make a point here of separating the cosmetic side and the medical side of animal testing.

I disagree with testing on animals to make cosmetics, there are now ways (such as recreating human skin) to test these safely.

I fully agree with testing on animals for medical gain. Curing diseases and life endangering illness are all right by me. Also we NEED to use animals for this as well as they need to be tested on real life objects, human made skin cells or organs wont work.
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Because we are talking cancer and HIV, the body is a lot lot more complex than human tissue.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

It would be down to the morals of the relative. ie. My dad doesn't give a hoot either way about animal testing. So I would l let the doctors used whatever they suggested.

My views are mine. I will not force them on other people. But when people tell me there's no other safe choices to animal testing, it ****es me off. Because there is.
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And your point is?

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

And your apparent illiteracy isn't. I don't recall mentioning anyone having "substances squirted in their eyes". Unless you are so ignorant that you think that is the limit of animal testing?:dunce:

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Personally speaking I find a lot of the actions of these extreme animal protestors appalling. I spoke to a friend recently who told me that the UK have much more rules and regulations regarding testing on animals. Therefore if these animal rights protestors succeeded in stopping all UK animal testing (which I very much doubt they will) then the testing will just be done elsewhere, without as much care taken over the animals.


Furthermore I abhor the actions of these people, who are, in my book, terrorists. I have heard awful stories about them, does anyone else remember a few years ago a journalist got branded witha hot iron for exposing a story on them? Also some guy got beaten to within an inch of his life for working for a company who has some dealings with animal testing.

Violence is an awful, awful way of getting your point across and it saddens me that in this case it has worked, because that will simply encourage this sort of behaviour. It is disgusting, and I would like to know how these extremists would act if a member of their own family needed life saving drugs that had been tested on animals.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

:erm: because we know the genetic makeup of thumpers eye is almost identical to the makeup of our own, just as rats have similar genetic predisposition and well monkeys and humans share something like 99+% dna and biological makeup, thus testing on them and proof that testing on them has not caused harm means less testing is needed (and with lower risk) on humans.
I don't think any scientist involved in this stuff enjoys testing on animals, just considers it a necessary part of the evolution of new lifesaving products (on the pharmacutical side), it is probably a lot less necessary for cosmetics, but what do I know about developments in that field (or medicine for that matter).

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

No, but I thought I'd better stay at the level of the company I'm keeping. :)

The best arguments to come up in this thread in favour of testing on animals is that there aren't enough human volunteers. Lame lame lame.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

I believe it was picked as an arbitary date. What I find interesting about the date is that Body Shop commenced trading
http://www.anitaroddick.com/aboutanita.php
14 years before the cut off date. And I bet a lot of useful products they sell today were tested on animals between '76 and '90.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Possibly because this thread isn't about the merits of animal testing; it's actually about people who dig up corpses, remember, the people you describe as "a little extreme"...

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Nice dodge on the Down's syndrom point :rolleyes:

There are never any garantees, but a damn sight more than inventing some random chemical and giving it to a human with absolutely no human testing at all. Maybe you should do your homework. Testing kills many, many animals before they find a mixture that is tolerable to humans. How many live human test subjects would we have if we abolished all testing on animals? Not many i'd suspect. We only have a few as it is, and that's only after we show them assurance and evidence, that the drug won't adversely affect them.

What, pray tell, was my ridiculous suggestion? That all medication should be thoroughly tested on animals before being license on humans? Yeah, totally ridiculous. Thalidomide was an example of what happened with partial animal testing, can you imagine what it would be like if nothing was tested on animals?

Sorry, some people have more important things to worry about than bloody bubble bath, or anti-wrinkle cream. Like curing Down's syndrome.

Let's just pretend your version of the world is correct and it is simply a case of money (which I proven, it isn't). If drug development cost 3 times as much, or more likely 20 times as much by eradicating animal testing, you'd think we'd get anywhere near the amount of drugs available? Not by a damn shot. You can forget about anti-HIV/AIDS drugs for the 3rd world right away. Solely testing on humans and synthetic tissue is not an option (see next paragraph), let alone not viable.

Great, so cloning is more ethical than animal research? Like I said, if you'd do your homework, you'd know its not just tissues that are important here, its how a body reacts as a whole. You think we could see what Thalidomide did to babies by testing on skin tissue? If a drug caused schitzophrenia/dillusional behavior, you'd see that testing on tissue would you? Heart attacks? You'd see that on skin tissue as well would you? Humans share 95% DNA with rats. Our body is very smiliar to most other mamals, particularly for curing diseases. Animal testing works, that's why they do it.

Testing on anirmals isn't nice, I wish it didn't have to be done (honestly) but its a necessary evil.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Time for you to start shopping elsewhere

http://www.liberation-mag.org.uk/Tesco.htm

So as I was saying, do you seriously expect us to believe that you've NEVER purchased a product that has either as a whole, or had it's ingredients tested on animals?

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Not really, it is about risk management, surely better to maim a couple of rats, than a couple of humans, human testing is the last step and prior to animal testing there are a lot of steps too, these scientists dont just make up a goo and stick it in Basils eye to see what happens, they have a pretty good idea it should be safe, this is to confirm their findings (from scientific knowledge, computer modeling, testing on cultures etc).

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

:clap: :gpoint:

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Sorry mate, i'll shut up...

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

I've made my points and I'll leave it at that.

On topic - yep, digging up a corpse is sick.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Is that what they were doing there?

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

It really is sick I agree. And also disgusting on a practical level. I reckon the perpetrators must have a screw loose.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

It also sickens me that several teenagers have got away without charge for trashing a childs grave at a local graveyard, they had pushed the stone over and kicked the toys left there across the graveyard,

http://www.thisisbolton.co.uk/lancas...ews/NEWS0.html
It makes me want to cry

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Awww, no reply on Tesco's animal testing policy? ;)

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

That is SO appalling how can anyone be so cruel.

Re: Five held in grave theft inquiry
 

Yes, sorry - If they state on the back of their shampoo or whatever that neither the product or ingredients are tested on animals, I'd buy it. If it doesn't state it, I don't.