Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

After what I had seen yesterday.

Get them out.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

It's a tough one. Who's to say that if the troops pull out, they won't turn to some kind of martial law? It hardly seems the most settled place in the world. It's a horrible situation, but how bad might it be without the troops there?

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

When the whole reason for the war (well the official one) has been shown to be a complete sham and the British, in the supposedly calm part, cannot trust the people they are training not to hand people over to insurgents I would have to agree.

I think we need a clear timetable to get the troops out. Possibly leave a bare minimum there to complete the training then get them home as soon as possible.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

there will never be a right time to pull them out,so i'm with you skunk4you pull em out now.
you just can't help some people.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Yes, get them out ASAP. Especially after yesterdays escapades, they're in even more danger than they were before. Let Bush and his soldiers deal with it. They're all bloody savages anyway.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Yep its a bloody farce:mad:

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

I need to ask the question.
Why did the tank not just run them all over I know I would off.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

because of rules of engagement/civilians at risk

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

It was a armoured vehicle not a tank, and the tyres were on fire

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Why after what you saw yesterday? And if that is so bad why are you not also asking to pull troops out of Northen Ireland? After all Lt Col Tim Collins refered to what happened in Basra last night to "a busy night in Belfast".

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

The majority of Iraq is actually working very well and is getting back on it's feet.It's just pockets of the country that have these problems.

The problem is that where and when things are going well it's not so 'sexy' for the media to report that.Much more interesting to fasten on to the negative and fail to really report on the positive because it is so much more exciting to look at bombs and conflict than looking at schools and hospitals being built.

After all no one has been reporting on the upside in NI have they?But as soon as there are riots the media are there reporting about it as if it had affected the whole of NI when in fact it was only in certain parts of the country. :rolleyes:

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

N.I is british and iraq isnt

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

What about are troops right to survive???????? :mad:
__________________

Northern Ireland is part of the uk is it not? Thats why they need to stay put there.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

It's difficult,

We need to have a set of realistic goals, and a timetable to achieve them, in order to withdraw with some dignity.

My prediction though:

The second that we and the yanks pull out the whole thing will descend into a bloody civil war.

Following the ensuing war that will last several years (with us supplying arms to the side we want to win). An islamic extremist faction will win and run country and be eben more tyranical and terrible than Saddam and be a breeding ground for more terrorists.

Hold on a minute??

Haven't I just described what happened to Afghanistan after the Soviets left :rolleyes:

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

I don't think the Army in Belfast have to worry about being handed over to the IRA etc if they were arrested by the PSNI.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

I'd still put my foot down. Why where they not carring guns for self defence?
Where was the back up?

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

I assumed he was referring to the petrol bombing, stone throwing etc as he said what he had seen.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

So thats it, we have 19 pages on call centres and only 18 posts on our troops in iraq, My thoughts on what is more important to the british public have now been crushed. :(

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Its a British Empire thing, even though Iraq was never in the Empire, Britain has a long history of invasion, occupation, and the pulling out leaving a Civil War (Israel, Ireland, United States, India to name a few).

Britain should never have gone in in the first place. They could pull out now, or pull out in 5 years time. Either way, they keep their tradition going.

By the way, a soldier joins the army to stand in front of a machine gun at the behest of his general. Why do they not expect to get killed? Have the rules of war changed. Do they decide by playing tiddly winks now?

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

People dont join the army to get shot, they join because they are proud to serve & defend there country, myself and all my brothers have served and are proud to have done so, what has happened is not war it is plain savagery :td:

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Define 'very well' and 'back on its feet'. I don't particularly define them in the context of vast amounts of reconstruction aid vanishing into the pockets of corrupt businessmen we put in charge (more than vanished in the oil for Iraq scandal). Nor in not having reliable electricity and water, or it being impossible to move around safely (the BBC had to send someone by military transport plane to Basra because they didn't have anyone on the ground and it was too dangerous to travel overland. Nor in having huge numbers of unemployment, hundreds of whom are murdered every month while looking for work, or in having a vast upsurge in criminality, including kidnapping, quite independently of terrorist activity. Nor in an oil-rich country having petrol shortages (hmm - sounds familiar). Nor in having quasi-judicial death squads taking people away and shooting them (hang on, didn't Saddam's boys do that?).

I really think that things are far, far worse there than is reported, simply because reporting is so difficult (another journalist murdered in Basra this week). It's not a new Vietnam, it's the first Iraq, which will be spoken about in 30 years as one of the great foreign policy failure of all time, in managing to make Saddam's rule look like an oasis of peace and good government.

Countries that are 'working very well' don't simultaneously have the world's largest suicide bombing campaign at the same time as the world's largest theft and the world's costliest military operation.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

We might as well. It looks like the Iraqis are bent on self-destruction anyway.

They won't fight the evil within, but don't mind having a go at those that are supposed to be their allies.

There was a funny line on one of the newspapers this morning about this. It said "Full Story Inside".
I had to laugh - like we'll ever hear the full story...

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

I think we should take the troops out. It will only lead to more deaths and suicide missions if we dont.
We need to keep a close eye on whats going on there, but we should take the troops out.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

I'm merely pointing out that we are not seeing the whole of the story only that which the media sees fit to show us.Plus about the BBC team having to use Military transport..well so they have all through the conflict.It's called imbedding.Mind I hadn't heard that story-do you have a link? :erm:

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

I don't think Iraq will ever be stable. I wish the troops could pull out. Then I could see my friend whoose been there for 3 years.

Sian

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Actually Orior, I think you history is a little lacking here....

Britian left Isreal after the UN resolution to make Isreal a soverign nation.... There was an ongoing terrorist campaign by various Jewish terrorist organisations against the British armed forces and administration in Palastine.

Ireland.... well the formation of the Irish Republic as a soverign nation ended a terrorist campaign in Ireland... The fact that republicans continued to kill other Irishmen after the British withdrawl can hardly be laid at the feet of the British.... The Irish got their own nation, but just couldnt be happy in it....

America.... A revolution that saw the British leaving the commonwealth of states to their own devices after a series of political and military screw-ups that still boggle the mind. Again, a new nation was formed post British departure, and as far as I'm aware, the Civil War in America had bugger all to do with Britain...

India.... there was a history of political dissent in India before WW2, but the cost of Indian support of Britain during WW2 was Indian independance. The trouble post Empire was a long standing hatered between Muslims and other religious groups in the Sub-Continent.... Yes the redrawing of the maps pre and post withdrawl caused dislocation on a massive scale. But the same can be said when the map of Europe was redrawn post WW1 and WW2...

Last point.... Soldiers are paid to ''stand'' infront of machineguns at the behest of their generals... That went out the window after WW1 thankfully. Soldiers are paid to ''Kill The Enemy'' and are ordered not to die as it causes a lot of hassle for the Regiment. There are Very few things worth dying for, but lots of things worth killing for...

And its time to bring the lads home, and indite Tony Blair and the lying B*stards who got us into this cesspit of a country. Let America be the worlds policeman, there are too many problems at home to be finding more in a place we are as welcome as a fart in a car on a hot day.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Fair point Earl. He who writes the history determines the outcome though eh?

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

You run the risk of be killed in a war when you join the Army. It isnt holiday camp. People may join with the best intentions but at some point the Government will send you to war and you will fight, and some will die

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Funny you should say that...

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives....TalAfar-X.gif

Gotta love Cox & Forkum. http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/000671.html

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Should never have gone in.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Point taken, but when they cant fight back it stinks :td:

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

The very worst will be if we are seen to run away..Lets us leave by all means but on our own terms and to a ratified timetable.Of course if the Iraqi government asks us to leave earlier than the timetable... ;)

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

No way, we should have never gone in in the first place, such a needless loss of life on all sides but now we are there, we stay. We ****ed the country up even more then under Saddam (or to a greater degree, the Americans) so we stay until it stabilises to a point where its own government can be left to take full control. Yes, there may of been oppression under Saddam and all the pro-war, pro-bush nuts, exclaim the official line that removing him from power was a good alternative to WMD but if we just left now we are leaving the door open for Al-Zakawi and other retards to take advantage of all those who are desperate and have been through dispair and create an equally bad situation as before.

You can't just lay waste to a country then leave, and if you didn't like the scenes yesterday, well to be frank, welcome to war. Its not all fine and dandy for the people with the bigger bombs, people are going to get hurt on all sides. Pictures like those yesterday just stir up emotion like seen here.

If we don't want it turning into the next failure that is Afghanistan; a breeding ground for terrorists then we have to stay. With Saddam gone, and our forces gone, it'll be a haven for Al Qaeda. The campaign isn't finished, it isn't finished until there is a working government and working law and order.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

No I dont think so Orior, certainly the vistors will write history as they see it. But no matter what official historians try to tell us, the truth of most conflicts will out eventually. Time needs to pass before an unbiased opinion of any historical even can truely be written, but eventually the dogma of victors and loosers will fall away and ''hopefully'' a truer understanding of events can be recorded....

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Quite. But since we're talking about the two most media-savvy and manipulative Governments on the planet, don't you think they could get the truth out, if the truth was that the country was 'getting back on its feet'? What is this great unspoken truth that illustrates how the country is 'getting back on its feet'?

Instead we have got what turn out to be a succession of lies ('we're going in to disarm Saddam of his WMDs','the insurgency is a small number of ex-regime elements','the insurgency will stop when we capture Saddam','We're going in to stop terrorism','things will get better after the election','things will get better after the constitution is ratified','100,000 police have been trained','We have no differences with the Iraqi Government'). Given that history, anything coming out of Washington and London needs to be taken with a hefty pinch of salt.

You can't argue with the graph of US deaths, which has steepened over time (despite the greater security around US forces), indicating that the country is getting progressively more violent.

Who are, er, part of the media. Bias can swing both ways (ask Fox News). And if capturing insurgents is what you celebrate two and a half years after the invasion (while ignoring the body count back in Baghdad), that's really rather indicative of how low expectations now are ('beacon of democracy' hopes replaced by 'hope the civil war isn't too bad after we pull out and that Iran isn't running too much of the country').

An Iraqi film maker writes in the Grauniad today:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...575416,00.html

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

It seems like the military action was carried out without serious consideration given to what to do in the aftermath.

The flattening of the prison was something I'd have expected from the Yanks, but not the Brits. There will be militants using that and twisting it so that it becomes a symbol of "Westerner's interference" and just ignoring Iraqis.

Allowing loads of other prisoners to escape was stupid too.

As for whether the troops should come out, of course they should. Their job is now largely done. If a presence is needed, it should be clearly working with the Iraqi military - units paired up so that you have the benefits of Western experience and technology with Iraqi cultural and geographical knowledge.

Remember the story about a group of Military Policemen (MPs) who were trapped in a police station by a mob of Iraqis? And the sergeant who refused to leave his men despite a way out being shown to him? I knew him. Simon Hamilton-Jewell was a member of the judo club I went to down South. Despite showing incredible restraint, and eventually surrendering, Simon and his army colleagues were murdered. My father went to HJ's funeral.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Listen up i have lost family in iraq because both our country and america can't leave well enough alone. Unless they come over here killing like Hitler did stay out the way and get our troops back.
And as for Northern Ireland come on its been going on since 1983 and will continue to go on until the bueracrats get out.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Sorry but N.I has been going on for a lot longer, ive no doubt a date will soon be posted.
And sorry about your lost family.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Just checked on history site sorry you are right got onenumber wrong its been happening N.I since 1953.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

More like 1641, or thereabouts.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/timelin...sh_rebel.shtml

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

We aren't referring to when they came over here to help the scots and William Wallace more along the lines of since our beloved country tried to enforce our criminal justice system as is it and rules on education and religions etc which given by the britannia encyclopedia website is 1953 if you like you can talk to my Nan on the matter she is 89 and was born and raised in Ireland for 35 of those years

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Troops went in in 1969 (this time). You could go back to the 12th century when the Normans invaded (my ancestors) if you wanted to be pedantic - British military meddling in Ireland has gone on for centuries (partly from the occasionally legitimate fear that the island would be used by other enemies of Britain, which hasn't been the case since 1945 (one benefit of the EU, I suppose - the French are hardly likely to respond to spats over the CAP by sending troops to Dublin).

As for flattening the prison, I'd expect nothing less of a British commander who thinks his troops are in danger. It's what soldiers do. It does, however, rather jar with the 'things are getting better and it's all a media con' line being spun by the politicians - it's more like something you'd see in Sierra Leone than a fledgling democracy 'getting back on its feet'. Proper countries don't need heavily armed SAS lads in mufti running around trying to find out what the bad guys are doing.

? Heavily armed, are they? Those paperclips can give you a nasty nick when used in the right hands.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Crikey - you ever heard of punctuation?

The FACT is that the IRA has been around at least since 1916, so you're still way off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

I suppose - the French are hardly likely to respond to spats over the CAP by sending troops to Dublin).
The french couldn't beat us at a game of war if they tried i mean come it wasn't so long ago they complained about the paramount channel playing Sharpe and sharpe's sword for nearly a month because it showed them as yellow bellies

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Yellow bellies who conquered most of continental Europe under one of the greatest military leaders ever.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Always nice to see Iraqis protest, it is a legitmate human right they haven't had for 40 years.

Does make me smile though, when Iraqis protest UK/US forces. Either they have no concept of irony, or they have very short memories.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Well, if two British policeman had been murdered on the streets of London by foreign fighters who then went on to demolish a prison to free some of their number, I think you'd be pretty weed off as well, and your protests would certainly not be 'ironic'.

Likewise, just because we kicked out Saddam in the name of freedom and democracy doesn't mean the Iraqis are somehow to be laughed at when they notice the lack of, er, freedom and democracy, and that the liberation has magically turned into an occupation.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

What you mention pales into insignificance when you are talking about having Saddam and his sons are your country's leaders.

If you were Iraqi you'd be dead a long time ago, with your mother, wife and daughters raped in front of you. If you were lucky, you would get away with the rapes and a beating, avoiding the wood chipper feet first.

If I was Iraqi, i'd think myself damn lucky the coalition forces came in, and some some fracas/confusion about police, on balance with Saddam/Uday/Qusay, I know what i'd rather have. However, my anger would be directed at the cause of this. The Iraqi police is filled with rebels and insurgents. They refused to hand the soldiers over at the Iraq's government's direct order. They brought this on themselves. The Iraqi government wern't happy at the action, but they understood it. A senior minister mentioned this in a phone call to Britain. However, the war in Iraq is very much a propaganda war, and it isn't only western leftist journalists stirring the s**t. Locals and middle east/Arab journalists are stirring it as well - and getting through to the locals and are very effective. The more moderate, accurate journalist, leftist or impartial isn't getting heard so the press, especially local are very much breeding the situation.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Actually, the troubles in Northen Ireland have been going on since a long time BEFORE 1983..

Sorry about your loss, but say we do pull out of Iraq. What happens to the country then? Anarchy?

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

The situation is a bit tricky. The Iraqis aren't anywhere near good enough to stand up for themselves, so we have to help. However, our presence is inciting trouble, that's making it tricky for the Iraqis in the first place. Its a vicious circle.

I would start whole and complete pullouts of confined cities (remaining at a safe distances, so they can return at short notice if deemed nescessary), as a test case. See what happens. Does the insurgency continue and Iraqi security forces fail? Or does the violence calm down and the Iraqis can take care of themselves? Hopefully, the latter would happen, and other forces can start pulling out.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Punky: Good idea.. I personally have voted we should stay, but we shouldn't stay indefinately. That would start to look like we have annexed Iraq, which isn't good.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

our lads and lasses out there are superb and doing a brave job.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

There was however 12 years of mass slaughter of Shiites
12 long years while the rest of the world stood back and let it happen
12 long years while men and boys were dragged from their beds to be shot in the back of the head and dumped in mass graves.
But hey, maybe that doesn't bother you?
It does me.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Well, yes and no. If Iraq is so naturally split along Shiite and Sunni lines, and it takes behavior of Saddam to keep it together, should Iraq remain as one country? Isn't the only reason Iraq is there is because the UK just drew a vague line around a few tribes and cities and decided to call it Iraq.

I can't see what the problem is with annexing the country. Give the kurds Kurdistan in the north. They've fought impossible odds for their freedom for decades, they deserve it. If they wern't getting oppressed from Saddam, they were getting oppressed from Turkey. If Shiites and Sunnis aren't big or mature enough to live together then just give everyone their own bits and have done with it.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Think part of the problem would be the location of oil fields in part of Iraq, isn't most of the oil production in one part of the country? If so the people left in the half without access to something that would bring them a lot of financial security would be very upset.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

I did think of that. The problem wouldn't be oil supply in general, but in quantity. Dividing the country into 3 logical parts would mean everyone gets some oil, but some would get more than most (Kurdistan would do worse, but they'd consider their freedom to be more important) The Shiites in the south I think would have more oil than the Sunnis...

The oil would be controlled and sold through anyway OPEC, so shouldn't be a problem really.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

The problem with that is the fact that most of the oil fields in Iraq are either in Kurdish northern Iraq. Or Shiite southern Iraq with a desert region dominated by Sunnis in the middle. If Iraq is carved up on ethnic grounds, then alot of Sunnis become improvished very quickly. All thats gonna do is breed even more anger and hatered in the Middle East. And if there is a full fledged civil war in Iraq, you can depend on all oil producing nations panicing about their ability to pump crude, and prices will start an uncontrolled upward spiral....

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Why do you think it was all about oil?

If it was, why are we still paying so much for the damn stuff?

:dozey:

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Perhaps because, while the things Saddam did were terrible, we have allowed other leaders to do similar things where there is no oil.


Profiteering?

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

Yep.


Well, the US State Dept did come up with a plan for the aftermath, as they could see what could happen. But the Pentagon ignored it.


The Administration & the Pentagon thought it would all be a cakewalk. And Rummy & co thought it would be ****-easy with all the "shock & awe" bombing & a (relatively) small number of troops, no need for the "Powell Doctrine", no need for vast nos of troops to handle the aftermath & the security. Just quickly topple Saddam, liberate the country, & then parade through the streets while all the Iraqis happily throw flowers at the feet of the soldiers etc.



Should we pull out?


I don't know.


If we pull out soon all at once, the country will surely fall apart.

But if we stay, our very presence will continue to exacerbate the problem, & fuel the insurgency.

Stay for a short while then pull out "when Iraq is ready"? Well, when is that? How long would it take to train the Iraqis effectively & help them build up sufficient security forces? Especially considering it now seems that insurgents & radical groups & so on already have a presence/following amongst the police etc in some areas.


I think we - & they - are screwed either way.

Re: Is it time to pull British troops out of Iraq?
 

"Blair denies Iraq pull-out date"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4279618.stm