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1andrew1 20-05-2025 11:24
Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Down to fourth place in the polls.

Quote:
A new voting intention poll has placed the Conservative Party in fourth place behind the Liberal Democrats, with Reform UK still in front with a clear lead.

According to the YouGov poll for Sky News/The Times, Nigel Farage‘s Reform are up to 29 per cent, with Labour trailing on 22 per cent after dropping a point.

The Lib Dems are third on 17 per cent, with the Conservatives down to 16 per cent after slumping another two points.

The survey looks set to increase pressure on Kemi Badenoch, the Tory leader, after her party’s historically poor performance at the local elections.
https://www.politics.co.uk/news/2025...dems-new-poll/

papa smurf 20-05-2025 11:43
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Reform in first place quite the achievement
Nigel Farage‘s Reform are up to 29 per cent, with Labour trailing on 22 per cent after dropping a point.

The Lib Dems are third on 17 per cent, with the Conservatives down to 16 per cent after slumping another two points.

Sephiroth 20-05-2025 13:16
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Labour on (a lowly) 22% is more than they deserve.

Russ 20-05-2025 13:20
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36196848)
Let's see if we can get them down to 6th to 7th.

papa smurf 20-05-2025 13:24
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36196856)
Labour on (a lowly) 22% is more than they deserve.
Lets see if we can get them down to 6th or 7th

1andrew1 20-05-2025 13:34
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36196857)
Let's see if we can get them down to 6th to 7th.
I expect once they acknowledge and get a new leader, the Conservatives will reclaim 3rd place.

Badenoch is a dream come true for Reform UK and Labour but she won't be there at the next election.

Sephiroth 20-05-2025 13:47
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36196859)
I expect once they acknowledge and get a new leader, the Conservatives will reclaim 3rd place.

Badenoch is a dream come true for Reform UK and Labour but she won't be there at the next election.
Not sure about that, but I know what you mean.

My party leader has chosen a front bench of professional back-stabbers; in other words, previous leadership contenders whom she is keen not to have them plotting here downfall. But plotting her downfall, they are; that's what our politicians are generally like.

Although she might not be there at the next election, (or even if she is still there), a front bench cleanout is required and new blood brought in from the back benches, carefully introduced as to there credentials and with sensible, achievable policies to offer.

I think this is too much to hope for.

Russ 20-05-2025 15:09
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36196859)
I expect once they acknowledge and get a new leader, the Conservatives will reclaim 3rd place.

Badenoch is a dream come true for Reform UK and Labour but she won't be there at the next election.
At the rate the Tories are joining Farage’s loopy lot there won’t be a Conservative Party at the next election.

Sephiroth 20-05-2025 15:14
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36196861)
At the rate the Tories are joining Farage’s loopy lot there won’t be a Conservative Party at the next election.
Yes - a possibility for all intents and purposes.

But Reform isn't as loopy as you as you like to think. Farage needs to consolidate by coming up with workable policies that people can see as achievable. If he can't do that, then we'll be even more sunk at the next GE.

Conservatives need to shape up along the lines I've already described.

Russ 20-05-2025 15:39
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36196862)

But Reform isn't as loopy as you as you like to think.
Oh I’m not so sure. In his haste to be seen as a legitimate party he recruited more than the average number of fruitcakes to join his ranks, later weeding some of them out by claiming to have “improved” (also known as ‘created’) the party vetting process.

Sephiroth 20-05-2025 15:49
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36196863)
Oh I’m not so sure. In his haste to be seen as a legitimate party he recruited more than the average number of fruitcakes to join his ranks, later weeding some of them out by claiming to have “improved” (also known as ‘created’) the party vetting process.
That is indeed a possibility - basically prejudiced people (some might call far right-wing). I expect Farage to ensure that candidates selected for the GE are probably clean. That's some task but may well be necessary.

Essentially, the people being polled sign up to Farage's message in the context of a pox on the other parties. The nearer we get to the GE, the public will want to be confidant that the 'fruitcakes' do not rule the party.

Me? I'm a paid up Conservative and my party's upper echelon fall into a different sort of 'fruitcake' category.

As for Labour, bustards doesn't cover it.

1andrew1 20-05-2025 15:54
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36196860)
Not sure about that, but I know what you mean.

My party leader has chosen a front bench of professional back-stabbers; in other words, previous leadership contenders whom she is keen not to have them plotting here downfall. But plotting her downfall, they are; that's what our politicians are generally like.

Although she might not be there at the next election, (or even if she is still there), a front bench cleanout is required and new blood brought in from the back benches, carefully introduced as to there credentials and with sensible, achievable policies to offer.

I think this is too much to hope for.
There's also the question of what the Conservative Party actually stands for in 2025. Some of its previous strengths have been trashed.
  • Efficiency through privatisation - this mantra worked well for it in the 1980s but some are now coming back to bite the Party (think Thames Water, British Steel, railways, nuclear power).
  • Party of sound governance and finance - high budget deficit, poor Brexit deal, rapid turnover of PMs, PPE scandal and bankrupt Conservative councils like Slough and Woking have put paid to this reputation.
  • Party of law and order - see Partygate, PPE scandal, BoJo keeping his mates like Chris Pincher and Owen Paterson in place despite their misdemeanours.
  • Party for business - poor Brexit deal, advocating for Brexit against British business' wishes, Liz Truss' calamity stint and the general economy. (They were unlucky with the inflation resulting from Ukraine invasion)
  • Party of low taxation - introduced highest tax burden since WW2. (Since higher under current government)

Russ 20-05-2025 16:03
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36196865)
There's also the question of what the Conservative Party actually stands for in 2025. Some of its previous strengths have been trashed.
  • Efficiency through privatisation - this mantra worked well for it in the 1980s but some are now coming back to bite the Party (think Thames Water, British Steel, railways, nuclear power).
  • Party of sound governance and finance - high budget deficit, poor Brexit deal, rapid turnover of PMs, PPE scandal and bankrupt Conservative councils like Slough and Woking have put paid to this reputation.
  • Party of law and order - see Partygate, PPE scandal, BoJo keeping his mates like Chris Pincher and Owen Paterson in place despite their misdemeanours.
  • Party for business - poor Brexit deal, advocating for Brexit against British business' wishes, Liz Truss' calamity stint and the general economy. (They were unlucky with the inflation resulting from Ukraine invasion)
  • Party of low taxation - introduced highest tax burden since WW2. (Since higher under current government)
Barring a miracle of Biblical proportions I genuinely (and happily) believe the Tories are a spent force who will not be taken seriously as a potential government for decades.

Bullshitting Boris truly left a lasting legacy but certainly not the one he hoped for.

Maggy 20-05-2025 17:59
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
How long were the Tories in power before Starmer was victorious?

thenry 20-05-2025 20:26
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
14 years wasn't it.. I think.

How many years was it with a condom on :shocked:

Sephiroth 20-05-2025 20:40
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenry (Post 36196879)
14 years wasn't it.. I think.

How many years was it with a condom on :shocked:
On what?

thenry 20-05-2025 22:15
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Well David was the dominant one. And Nick had cling film on. :shrug:

1andrew1 28-05-2025 09:41
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Sky News promoting its interview with Cummings with this prediction from him.
Quote:
Kemi Badenoch will be gone as Tory leader within a year - and there are plots already under way to oust her, Dominic Cummings has said.

The former Number 10 aide also claimed the Conservative Party "might be dead".
https://news.sky.com/story/nigel-far...-says-13375541

Russ 28-05-2025 10:49
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
The former Number 10 aide also claimed the Conservative Party "might be dead".
Ooooh don’t tease us like that!!

Damien 28-05-2025 11:07
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
I usually think you have to take the proclaimed death of one of the two main parties with a large pinch of salt. It's been said of both of them so many times over the years. Tories in '97, Labour in '10, but especially in '19 and now the Tories again.

What gives me some cause for doubt is that Reform does seem a real threat to them. They are not gaining at all from Labour's unpopularity, and Badenoch doesn't have a good read on the country outside of Twitter. Farage is much better at connecting with what people are feeling.

The other side of that is that Reform at the moment has less broad appeal. About 30% of Conservative voters are going for Labour over Reform in a hypothetical match-up. There is a reason why Labour are trying to position Reform front and centre over the Tories because, if the Tories got their act together, they're still a bigger electoral threat. Farage is a big turnoff for moderates and the centre ground. I am not sure of they are capable of broading that appeal in the way Cameron and Johnson did to win their elections.

Chris 28-05-2025 11:24
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Reform’s support is skin deep. It has councillors (and MPs) who don’t show up to work and who resign and swap parties. It is quite possible it could do very well in the next election but at some point it will do well enough that the spotlight is properly on them and that’s when it’ll go bad.

The Scottish Socialist Party was a thing at Holyrood - formed in 1998, got one seat in the first Scottish parliament, six seats in the second, and then utterly beclowned themselves with a series of stunts and pronouncements that would make a student activist blush. They lost all their seats in 2007 and gave up contesting Scottish elections prior to the 2021 vote.

Populists are great at pointing out problems and getting people angry enough at what’s wrong to support them on the basis that they made people agree with them that everything’s awful. Whether they are as good at implementing workable solutions, especially solutions that take time, cost money, don’t have universal support and which involve some people winning and some people losing, is another matter.

The Tories are the most successful political party in the world for good reason. They have a depth of support and a heritage. They may look awful now but they’ve looked awful before.

denphone 28-05-2025 16:56
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36197206)
Sky News promoting its interview with Cummings with this prediction from him.

https://news.sky.com/story/nigel-far...-says-13375541
Exaggerated media hyperbole as if my memory serves me right they were saying the same thing about the Labour party several years ago.

1andrew1 10-06-2025 18:18
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Tories secured most donations of any UK party in first quarter of 2025, data shows

The Conservatives raked in more donations than any other big UK political party in the first three months of 2025 as backers returned to the fray, while Nigel Farage’s Reform UK failed to secure big-ticket supporters.

The Tories received more than £3.3mn in donations in the first quarter, the Electoral Commission said on Tuesday. In the same period, the governing Labour party received £2.3mn, while Reform and the Liberal Democrats received just £1.5mn.

Kemi Badenoch’s party received its single biggest donation of £1mn from gaming entrepreneur and new donor Jeremy Elliott San in February, according to figures published by the UK elections watchdog.

Media reports suggest he donated a further £1mn ahead of the local elections in England in May, though data for that period has yet to be published.

The rise in donations for the Conservatives reflects enduring support for one of the most successful political parties in the democratic world, from both new and historic backers.
https://www.ft.com/content/f97d0740-...b-7578f1a1904b

Hugh 10-06-2025 19:02
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Un-paywalled version

https://archive.ph/1twxo

Hugh 04-08-2025 13:02
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-tory-failures

Quote:
Truss accuses Badenoch of not telling truth about Tory failures

The Conservative leader, Kemi Badenoch, is not telling the truth about the “real failures of 14 years of Conservative government”, the former Conservative prime minister Liz Truss has said.

Writing in the Telegraph, Truss said: “In a recent speech Kemi said: ‘From now on, we are going to be telling the British people the truth even when it is difficult to hear.’ If she’s not willing to tell the truth to her own supporters, the Conservative party is in serious trouble.”

Truss’s comments came after Badenoch’s own Telegraph article in which she claimed the current Labour government was failing to heed the warnings of the disastrous mini-budget that defined Truss’s short-lived premiership.

The former prime minister has been fighting a desperate battle to rewrite the narrative around her 45 days in office in 2022. She released a memoir and embarked on a campaign tour that allowed her to talk up her record and offer her views on the political landscape in the UK and US.

In her Telegraph article, she claimed her mini-budget would have helped the UK escape a “doom-loop” of low growth and high taxes. “Yet, it was sabotaged by the Bank of England and the Treasury – which didn’t want to be challenged and wanted to cover up their failings – and Conservative MPs who either didn’t believe in supply-side economics or cravenly wanted preferment under a Sunak premiership.”

But Truss has faced an uphill battle – not least when she was mocked by the campaign group Led By Donkeys, which unfurled a banner during one of her appearances bearing the phrase: “I crashed the economy.” It also included a picture of a lettuce – a reference to a Daily Star livestream stunt that sought to determine whether Truss’s battle to survive in No 10 could last longer than a 60p iceberg lettuce from Tesco.

Illustrating her criticism of the current Labour government, Badenoch invoked Truss’s failures in No 10. “Picture the scene: a new prime minister and chancellor spending billions without also making the necessary savings to offset their splurge and balance the books. The markets react adversely, interest rates spike and the cost of living gets worse with prices soaring.

“For all their mocking of Liz Truss, Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves have not learnt the lessons of the mini-budget and are making even bigger mistakes,” she wrote in the Telegraph on Saturday.

Hitting back, Truss wrote: “She is wrong. Labour is doing the opposite of the mini-budget, which is why the country is headed for disaster.”

And listing several policy recommendations that place her close to the US president, Donald Trump, politically, Truss added: “It is disappointing that, instead of serious thinking like this, Kemi Badenoch is instead repeating spurious narratives. I suspect she is doing this to divert from the real failures of 14 years of Conservative government in which her supporters are particularly implicated.”

Sephiroth 04-08-2025 16:07
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Truss has her reputation to protect. There is no doubt, that her measures were intended to stimulate economic growth; as in her heart was in the right place. But she wasn't in her right mind when she announced £45bn of unfunded tax reductions without consulting the relevant regulators (OBR/BoE).

Quote:
Writing in the Telegraph, Truss said: “In a recent speech Kemi said: ‘From now on, we are going to be telling the British people the truth even when it is difficult to hear.’ If she’s not willing to tell the truth to her own supporters, the Conservative party is in serious trouble.”
BI hope that Kemi's words were sincere and not the usual weasel words that all politicians use in one scenario or another. So, in that regard, not only is Truss right, but the Conservative Party IS in serious trouble. Very serious trouble. Kemi's front bench is infested with those who caused the past Tory failure. What's worse, people at large know this and say this.

Kemi needs to meet me for a curry and implement my advice which starts with a front bench clear-out and the introduction of the 2024 intake. Also she realistically needs to acknowledge that a large proportion of Reform UK are natural Conservatives and to win them back, an accommodation with Reform UK is necessary.

1andrew1 04-08-2025 16:56
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36200430)
Her lack of self-awareness is the casualty here.

thenry 06-10-2025 15:52
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
The failed leadership candidate James Cleverly speaks. Little applause. Sums him up to be honest. Fake.

Sephiroth 06-10-2025 16:06
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
People are not yet ready to believe what the Conservatives say.

---------- Post added at 16:06 ---------- Previous post was at 16:02 ----------

They propose £47 billion spending cuts! If they are serious, for budgetary purposes, they'll need at least to halve that and recalculate their spending priorities.

Paul 06-10-2025 17:05
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
I believe the cuts are over 5 years, not all in one go. Still seems a lot though.

1andrew1 06-10-2025 17:18
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36204196)
People are not yet ready to believe what the Conservatives say.

---------- Post added at 16:06 ---------- Previous post was at 16:02 ----------

They propose £47 billion spending cuts! If they are serious, for budgetary purposes, they'll need at least to halve that and recalculate their spending priorities.
They're making wild promises as they've calculated they won't win but want to put the pressure on Reform and Labour.

Sephiroth 06-10-2025 17:21
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Nevertheless, it's a firm rule to at least double cost estimates and halve savings/income estimates.

Pierre 06-10-2025 21:08
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36204196)
[COLOR="Blue"]People are not yet ready to believe what the Conservatives say.
It’s not about belief, they are currently irrelevant. Labour are only relevant because they are in government……for now.

Nobody is interested in what they have to say

Mr K 06-10-2025 23:15
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Oh dear... Bet its lousy chocolate too.
https://metro.co.uk/2025/10/06/kemi-...-bar-24356118/
Quote:
Kemi Badenoch is trying to become the next leader of Britain, but can she even spell it?

A bizarre printing error discovered at the so far disastrous Conservative Party Conference has brought more shame on Sir Keir Starmer’s supposed opposition.

Her signed chocolate bar, handed out to journalists and supporters for free, reads: ‘When Labour negotiates, Britian [sic] loses.’

Image removed, way too big, resize it first.

1andrew1 07-10-2025 07:44
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36204227)
Oh dear... Bet its lousy chocolate too.
https://metro.co.uk/2025/10/06/kemi-...-bar-24356118/


Image removed, way too big, resize it first.
Quite clear that the Party can't be trusted to run a bath let alone the country!

damien c 07-10-2025 08:01
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36204233)
Quite clear that the Party can't be trusted to run a bath let alone the country!
Very true but that is easily a statement that can be made about all the politicians, not a single one of them is trustworthy, none of them is interested in anything but themselves.

MP's are merely put in place by the Unions, Corporations etc and then we get a "Choice" of which set of clowns we want to "Run" the country.

Never trust a politician with it's mouth open, anything that comes from it is a lie.

Pierre 07-10-2025 09:12
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36204233)
Quite clear that the Party can't be trusted to run a bath let alone the country!
Don't worry they're 2-3 election cycles away from being anywhere near government.......unless in coalition.

Damien 07-10-2025 09:26
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
The uselessness of both party leaders is why I think the next election is a tough call. They'll both be different by then.

Labour are quite lucky the Tories are so dire because they would prefer a straight fight against Reform to squeeze the left vote and maybe even the Lib Dem vote. I think a more serious, less reactionary Tory Party would pose a much bigger threat to them.

Mr K 07-10-2025 16:21
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
That Jenrick bloke seems like a bit of a racist self serving nob. Just saying...
Wonder what his boss really thinks about him ( dont turn your back on him is my advice !)

Carth 07-10-2025 16:28
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36204260)
That Jenrick bloke seems like a bit of a racist self serving nob. Just saying...
Wonder what his boss really thinks about him ( dont turn your back on him is my advice !)
Like all the others, a few valid points amongst the dross

damien c 07-10-2025 17:44
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36204260)
That Jenrick bloke seems like a bit of a racist self serving nob. Just saying...
Wonder what his boss really thinks about him ( dont turn your back on him is my advice !)
Why is he racist??

Hugh 07-10-2025 17:47
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36204265)
Like all the others, a few valid points amongst the dross
Ah, the old "at least the trains ran on time" trope - it’s where they ran to was the problem…

Carth 07-10-2025 17:54
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36204279)
Ah, the old "at least the trains ran on time" trope - it’s where they ran to was the problem…
?

?

?

nobody mentioned trains, I simply said that, like others, whatever he says will resonate with some but not all.

:p:

Paul 07-10-2025 18:19
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by damien c (Post 36204278)
Why is he racist??
He wasnt, its just another of those words people throw around.

Pierre 07-10-2025 18:20
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by damien c (Post 36204278)
Why is he racist??
Don’t worry, it’s Labour’s way of saying Working class nowadays.

Mr K 07-10-2025 18:45
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by damien c (Post 36204278)
Why is he racist??
https://www.itv.com/news/central/202...ation-comments

Carth 07-10-2025 18:51
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Maybe people should be asking the (not so obvious or important) question -

Why did he not see any white faces if the place is nicely integrated?

Were they hiding?

Mr K 07-10-2025 19:15
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36204298)
Why did he not see any white faces if the place is nicely integrated?
If he did he'd keep quiet. Ruin his story and ambitions. Colour of face is meaningless these days, and makes lazy assumptions

Hugh 07-10-2025 19:16
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36204298)
Maybe people should be asking the (not so obvious or important) question -

Why did he not see any white faces if the place is nicely integrated?

Were they hiding?
Perhaps his blinkers restricted his viewing… ;)

He’s a politician - don't you normally doubt their every utterance?

peanut 07-10-2025 19:22
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
I think basically it's where they put them (immigrants). Where I live there's a known area called 'Little India'. You don't feel safe or welcome in that area as well as other grouped areas. What they need to do is segregate more so and not house immigrants in one specific area.

By saying that I suppose I'm now a racist.

thenry 07-10-2025 19:30
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Highfields?

papa smurf 07-10-2025 19:30
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Around here you mostly only see only white people, the "foreigners " are mostly white eastern Europeans who run shops lots of shops

damien c 07-10-2025 20:20
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36204297)
Doesn't make him racist at all, he is if it's true pointing out that what most people who are black say, when they say "Not enough black people here" but they don't get called racist.

Now if he is lying about not seeing another white person, then call him out for lying but you cannot call him out as racist if it would be fine if he wasn't white!

Funny thing is, the word racist has lost its meaning, you look at someone who isn't white, you're a racist, you say hello to someone you're a racist.

To many people use the word Racist for things that are not and people need to get thicker skin and stop beign so sensitive!

---------- Post added at 20:20 ---------- Previous post was at 20:14 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36204303)
I think basically it's where they put them (immigrants). Where I live there's a known area called 'Little India'. You don't feel safe or welcome in that area as well as other grouped areas. What they need to do is segregate more so and not house immigrants in one specific area.

By saying that I suppose I'm now a racist.
I think there are places like that now throughout the whole country and it's getting worse.

There is a block where I live, whose daughter has been gropped twice by Asylum Seekers, both times they have been reported to the police, both times the police said "No evidence" despite her having bruises on her arm from where she was grabbed and her school shirt ripped, no suprise the shop's CCTV footage was not available.

The people that did it live in a HMO and the council have just approved another 2 HMO's on the same street despite 50+ objections from the residents of the street.

I won't go to London, I refuse because it is not safe anymore.

Pierre 07-10-2025 20:37
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36204297)
Why? do you think he is racist ?

---------- Post added at 20:37 ---------- Previous post was at 20:35 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36204302)
Perhaps his blinkers restricted his viewing… ;)

He’s a politician - don't you normally doubt their every utterance?
Regardless of any projection.

If he didn’t see another “white face”, And to be fair the chances are he didn’t.


Why is stating that racist?

Mr K 07-10-2025 20:45
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36204319)
Why do you think he is racist ?
Why is he making skin colour an issue? It means nothing.. I've been to Birmingham, there are white people.
Granted he's only made such a statement to further his own ambitions and get himself in the headlines. He could possibly not be racist, but has to pretend to be so, to get votes? Makes him even more repulsive. It's a sad twisted country.

thenry 07-10-2025 20:48
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
They all want to speak freely but forget they are really in the closet. I bet it washes, why they are in the closet, but it rarely does. Thick!

Pierre 07-10-2025 21:19
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36204325)
Why is he making skin colour an issue? It means nothing.
No, it means lots of things, in fact contrary to MLK, according to modern commentators it means more than the content of your character….. . They would say you skin colour defines who you are …(they’re wrong, but they been allowed to propagate it)

Quote:
I've been to Birmingham, there are white people
Well done, you’ve been North of Watford, a bet you got a nose bleed. Yes there are white people……I mean that very statement says it all……yes there are white people. (Btw why are you making skin colour an issue?)

peanut 07-10-2025 21:22
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
It's mainly about integration. Bundling the same types together isn't working and causing an issue. That's my take on it.

Hugh 07-10-2025 21:52
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Some context…

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...mingham-claims

Quote:
In the remarks in March, Jenrick was recorded as saying: “I went to Handsworth in Birmingham the other day to do a video on litter and it was absolutely appalling. It’s as close as I’ve come to a slum in this country. But the other thing I noticed there was that it was one of the worst integrated places I’ve ever been to. In fact, in the hour and a half I was filming news there I didn’t see another white face...

… Jenrick’s comments about Handsworth related to a video about litter and fly-tipping that he recorded for GB News. In the footage, he talks about being in Handsworth but is actually pictured walking down a street in nearby Aston. There are no interviews with any local people. A clip of flytipping in Aston put on Facebook by a Liberal Democrat councillor, Mumtaz Hussain, is also shown. Jenrick later went to interview residents in the Conservative area of Sutton Coldfield about flytipping.

Sephiroth 07-10-2025 22:36
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36204325)
Why is he making skin colour an issue? It means nothing.. I've been to Birmingham, there are white people.
Granted he's only made such a statement to further his own ambitions and get himself in the headlines. He could possibly not be racist, but has to pretend to be so, to get votes? Makes him even more repulsive. It's a sad twisted country.
So why pick on Jenrick?

Chris 07-10-2025 22:45
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36204335)

If we’re offering context, then the quote in full context is important. Even the Graun managed to provide that, admittedly 10 paragraphs down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenrick
That’s not the kind of country I want to live in. I want to live in a country where people are properly integrated. It’s not about the colour of your skin or your faith – of course it isn’t. But I want people to be living alongside each other, not parallel lives. That’s not the right way we want to live as a country.”
In context, the comments address failure to integrate. His observations may be accurate or they may not be, but they are very obviously not racist, as some have tried to claim.

1andrew1 07-10-2025 23:24
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36204341)
So why pick on Jenrick?
This is a case of people reacting to Jenrick's words, correctly or incorrectly But I do appreciate that as he works for GB News, he must adopt their victim mentality or risk losing his work there.

Hugh 08-10-2025 00:26
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36204342)
If we’re offering context, then the quote in full context is important. Even the Graun managed to provide that, admittedly 10 paragraphs down.



In context, the comments address failure to integrate. His observations may be accurate or they may not be, but they are very obviously not racist, as some have tried to claim.
Not a claim I have made…

However, the fact he was filming in one area whilst commenting on another, may cast some doubt on his veracity…

Chris 08-10-2025 07:30
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36204346)
Not a claim I have made…

However, the fact he was filming in one area whilst commenting on another, may cast some doubt on his veracity…
If he’d said something like “Here I am in Handsworth and …” then perhaps. But he didn’t. He said “I went to Handsworth the other day and …”. In which case it’s difficult to see what the actual problem is. I frequently discuss issues of interest whilst not standing in the exact place where I observed them. That isn’t controversial, unless I’m claiming to be reporting on-the-spot, and again, Jenrick wasn’t, and wasn’t claiming to be either.

The Left has a clear agenda here, which is to paint any discussion of racial issues as inherently racist. It’s a tired playbook and one you shouldn’t fall for.

Damien 08-10-2025 08:41
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Here is what he said:

Quote:
I went to Handsworth in Birmingham the other day to do a video on litter and it was absolutely appalling. It’s as close as I’ve come to a slum in this country. But the other thing I noticed there was that it was one of the worst integrated places I’ve ever been to. In fact, in the hour and a half I was filming news there I didn’t see another white face

That’s not the kind of country I want to live in. I want to live in a country where people are properly integrated. It’s not about the colour of your skin or your faith, of course it isn’t. But I want people to be living alongside each other, not parallel lives. That’s not the right way we want to live as a country.
He is the one who brought race into it.

Why is it a failure of integration that he didn't see 'another white face'? For all we know, the people he saw were English people, with a Brummie accent, who support Villa and England in the football and attend Edgbaston when a test match is on. We don't know.

If he wants a genuine discussion about groups living in entirely different cultures, with little common ground or interaction, then don't start it by talking about people's skin colour. Skin colour is not a measure of integration.

Chris 08-10-2025 09:22
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36204353)
Why is it a failure of integration that he didn't see 'another white face'? For all we know, the people he saw were English people, with a Brummie accent, who support Villa and England in the football and attend Edgbaston when a test match is on. We don't know.
Yes, indeed, because Birmingham’s massively integrated like that.

Quote:
If he wants a genuine discussion about groups living in entirely different cultures, with little common ground or interaction, then don't start it by talking about people's skin colour. Skin colour is not a measure of integration.
Well, thank you at least for demonstrating another page of the Left/metro-liberal playbook - claiming “we don’t know” stuff we actually very easily do know (c.f. “How do you know I’m a man?” Posited by obviously male trans-rights heckler at a conference women’s event yesterday). It’s just another facet of the same narrative, designed to ensure you can’t even talk about a subject.

You only have to spend an hour or so walking through these places - and I have, incidentally, spent some time living and walking in the fringes of Brum and Smethwick some years ago - to see who’s embracing Britishness and who’s forming enclaves.

It is not racist to draw attention to observable facts. It is utter foolishness to continue to insist certain topics can’t be discussed, are inherently evil or are unknowable.* The longer the metropolitan commentariat class continues to peddle these absurdities, the angrier people who can see it’s untrue will get. And *that’s* when you have an actual problem, because people - voters - turn to extremists when they think the mainstream parties aren’t listening.

*Lots of young women in Rochdale and elsewhere stand as witnesses to what happens when important issues are shut down just in case they’re seen as racist. Seems like we’ve learned nothing.

Sephiroth 08-10-2025 09:40
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36204344)
This is a case of people reacting to Jenrick's words, correctly or incorrectly But I do appreciate that as he works for GB News, he must adopt their victim mentality or risk losing his work there.
I think you're somewhat off here, Andrew.

The vultures seize on the bit they want in order to knock a Tory off his perch. As I'm sure (?) you'll agree, generically Jenrick was right; little or no sign of integration and we all know what these ghettos eventually bring.

The BBC devoted nearly all of yesterday's 5PM news programme to Jenrick and the reporter's bias was sickeningly obvious.

Hugh 08-10-2025 10:02
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36204359)
I think you're somewhat off here, Andrew.

The vultures seize on the bit they want in order to knock a Tory off his perch. As I'm sure (?) you'll agree, generically Jenrick was right; little or no sign of integration and we all know what these ghettos eventually bring.

The BBC devoted nearly all of yesterday's 5PM news programme to Jenrick and the reporter's bias was sickeningly obvious.
One has to wonder which Conservative Party member decided to leak a recording of a six month old Aldridge-Brownhills Conservative Association dinner, and why?

Pierre 08-10-2025 10:16
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36204301)
If he did he'd keep quiet. Ruin his story and ambitions. Colour of face is meaningless these days, and makes lazy assumptions
doesn't sound very diverse.

Sephiroth 08-10-2025 10:21
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36204361)
One has to wonder which Conservative Party member decided to leak a recording of a six month old Aldridge-Brownhills Conservative Association dinner, and why?
You're just being mischievous and not at all serious.

Do you believe that Jenrick's comment on integration was racist?

Pierre 08-10-2025 10:23
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36204353)
Skin colour is not a measure of integration.
I'm going to have that engraved, and I'll bring it out every time time some body complains about the whiteness of any particular team, group, etc.

Chris 08-10-2025 10:56
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36204366)
I'm going to have that engraved, and I'll bring it out every time time some body complains about the whiteness of any particular team, group, etc.
Here’s your starter for 10 - Scottish Labour leader Anas Sarwar complaining that there are too many white people in various places.



Apparently skin colour is in fact a valid observation when the skin is white.

Hugh 08-10-2025 11:02
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36204365)
You're just being mischievous and not at all serious.

Do you believe that Jenrick's comment on integration was racist?
Why is it mischievous to wonder why, six months after an event, someone leaks a recording about one of the challengers to the current Leader of the Conservative Party?

About Jenrick’s comment - as someone on this forum frequently says

Quote:
use your imagination

1andrew1 08-10-2025 11:58
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36204365)
You're just being mischievous and not at all serious.
I think the person who leaked it during the Conservative Party Conference is the mischievous one. ;)

Sephiroth 08-10-2025 12:22
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36204374)
I think the person who leaked it during the Conservative Party Conference is the mischievous one. ;)
But not the irritating one.

Damien 08-10-2025 17:36
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36204357)
Yes, indeed, because Birmingham’s massively integrated like that.

Well, thank you at least for demonstrating another page of the Left/metro-liberal playbook - claiming “we don’t know” stuff we actually very easily do know (c.f. “How do you know I’m a man?” Posited by obviously male trans-rights heckler at a conference women’s event yesterday). It’s just another facet of the same narrative, designed to ensure you can’t even talk about a subject.

You only have to spend an hour or so walking through these places - and I have, incidentally, spent some time living and walking in the fringes of Brum and Smethwick some years ago - to see who’s embracing Britishness and who’s forming enclaves.

It is not racist to draw attention to observable facts. It is utter foolishness to continue to insist certain topics can’t be discussed, are inherently evil or are unknowable.* The longer the metropolitan commentariat class continues to peddle these absurdities, the angrier people who can see it’s untrue will get. And *that’s* when you have an actual problem, because people - voters - turn to extremists when they think the mainstream parties aren’t listening.

*Lots of young women in Rochdale and elsewhere stand as witnesses to what happens when important issues are shut down just in case they’re seen as racist. Seems like we’ve learned nothing.
You cannot tell how integrated someone is by the colour of their skin. It was the lack of white people he was commenting on, suggesting that it was a failure of integration. He didn't provide any other example. Integration is about language, culture and participation in society. The colour of your skin is not a proxy for these discussions.

This is a gaslighting technique, where he defends that statement by pretending it was the following sentence about concerns about integration that people are objecting to. He is smarter than that; he knew what he was doing. It's not the first time he has used white people in connection with his claimed concerns about integration. When talking of a decline of British people in certain areas, he makes sure to specify 'White British'. He also knows, as we all do, that this is taking place when some - not all - right-wing commentators are pushing the idea that you cannot be deemed English and black. If it was a one-off, you could claim he phrased it badly, but it isn't.

As for the metropolitan commentariat class, I think the objections to what he said would extend far beyond them, which is why he has to pretend he was saying something else. He'll keep dallying with this language 'white british' instead of British, making comments on skin colour, then get faux-offended when challenged it saying he is simply talking about integration until such a time he feels confident enough to say what he means. If we are at the point where ethnicity is now a valid concern, then we're already at the extremes. It's not what I want the mainstream parties pandering to.

Sephiroth 08-10-2025 18:02
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
You have to start with a UK made up with its white ethnicity right up to WW2. Immigrants such as they were from the now previous colonies, integrated fairly well, without losing their traditions.

After WW2, the UK imported a lot of Caribbean workers to fill the labour shortage cause by the war. That has worked out fairly well, albeit human nature tends to a certain degree of ghetto-isation - sort of herd comfort.

In the 1970s, Kenya & Uganda decided that they didn't like Indians. So they were chucked out and the UK , to its credit, took them in. I recall from the time that India didn't want to know.

Recently, the UK did the right thing in taking in Hong Kong citizens who wished to escape Chinese oppression.

So far, all the racial groups described above have blended into the UK economy to an extent that we are all comfortable with.

But then it all went wrong, particularly starting with the Blair era and Middle East & Afghanistan turmoil. Over those 30 years, people of that particular culture have flooded into the UK with very little compatibility with UK culture. Please see 7/7 and subsequent terrorist murders for details, along with Rotherham and similar northern towns with strong ghetto elements. There are no-go areas in London where whites, particularly women. walk at their peril.

@Damien might care to bear history and culture in mind before castigating Chris and others' similar words.

Damien 08-10-2025 18:27
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
But you're again talking about culture. My objection to what Jenrick said was that he, not for the first time, brought race into it. As you've pointed out, there are people whose families have been here for generations and are English.

He could walk into communities that you have described, not see a white face, but be looking at a tremendously successful integration story.

Sephiroth 08-10-2025 18:40
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36204385)
But you're again talking about culture. My objection to what Jenrick said was that he, not for the first time, brought race into it. As you've pointed out, there are people whose families have been here for generations and are English.

He could walk into communities that you have described, not see a white face, but be looking at a tremendously successful integration story.
I understand what you are saying but remember, Jenrick specifically said it's not about skin colour. The term "white" should not be taken in a narrow context.

The thing that's probably bothering you and like minded people, is that "British/English" is not detectable by colour and thus the term "white" tends to racism.

But if the term "white" is used in my context, then there's nothing wrong with it.

Chris 08-10-2025 20:08
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36204383)
You cannot tell how integrated someone is by the colour of their skin.
No, but you can make reasonably confident predictions about the level of integration across a district if houses that were once entirely occupied by white families, are now entirely occupied by black or brown ones. The nuance you are refusing to see is that he is commenting at the level of community, not pointing the finger at individuals. As you point out, he’s not dumb, he obviously knows there are limits to what you can infer about an individual based on their presentation, whether that be race or any number of cultural markers.

Quote:
It was the lack of white people he was commenting on, suggesting that it was a failure of integration. He didn't provide any other example. Integration is about language, culture and participation in society. The colour of your skin is not a proxy for these discussions.
Again - when presented with an individual human being shorn of all context, of course you can’t. Put that individual in a network of streets that are entirely inhabited by people of the same race, none of whom had family in the UK prior to about 1950, and you absolutely can make sufficient inference to begin to identify a problem.

Quote:
This is a gaslighting technique,
Dead right. Here it comes:

Quote:
where he defends that statement by pretending it was the following sentence about concerns about integration that people are objecting to. He is smarter than that; he knew what he was doing. It's not the first time he has used white people in connection with his claimed concerns about integration. When talking of a decline of British people in certain areas, he makes sure to specify 'White British'. He also knows, as we all do, that this is taking place when some - not all - right-wing commentators are pushing the idea that you cannot be deemed English and black. If it was a one-off, you could claim he phrased it badly, but it isn't.

As for the metropolitan commentariat class, I think the objections to what he said would extend far beyond them, which is why he has to pretend he was saying something else. He'll keep dallying with this language 'white british' instead of British, making comments on skin colour, then get faux-offended when challenged it saying he is simply talking about integration until such a time he feels confident enough to say what he means. If we are at the point where ethnicity is now a valid concern, then we're already at the extremes. It's not what I want the mainstream parties pandering to.
… where he has said something he knows is liable to wilful misunderstanding, and has therefore explicitly drawn attention to the likely misunderstanding and provided added reassurance that this is not what he means, but you go on and insist that he means what you need him to mean anyway, because he’s dared raise a subject which is verboten amongst metropolitan lefties.

It seems to me you’ve been so careful to curate your acceptable beliefs and opinions that you’re quite unable to believe Jenrick might simply mean what he says. It’s a pity because those who choose to see issues in this way (or to be wilfully blind to them, as the case may be) have poured so much energy into controlling what may be said, they’ve rendered themselves unable to engage with the arguments when people inevitably get fed up and start saying them anyway.

There has been a sea-change in public discourse over the past few years - I refuse to believe you’re so deaf you can’t hear it. But until you’re ready to engage with it as opposed to labelling it ‘gaslighting’ (and by making that accusation you’re actually doing the very thing you’ve accused Jenrick of doing), you’re going to be powerless to stop it. At this point by the way I mean ‘you’ very much in the plural, i.e. all those whose instinct reply along the lines of ‘you can’t say that’ when forced to confront the protests of the lumpen proles.

Damien 08-10-2025 21:13
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36204387)
… where he has said something he knows is liable to wilful misunderstanding, and has therefore explicitly drawn attention to the likely misunderstanding and provided added reassurance that this is not what he means, but you go on and insist that he means what you need him to mean anyway, because he’s dared raise a subject which is verboten amongst metropolitan lefties.
Well, we have a difference of opinion on his motivations. You think he was making a point about groups integrating into wider society and the danger of them forming enclaves away from everyone. I think he was tapping into a rising ethnonationalism within the UK.

This wasn't the first time he reached for 'white' as a shorthand for talking about integration, and I don't think it will be the last.

Quote:
It seems to me you’ve been so careful to curate your acceptable beliefs and opinions that you’re quite unable to believe Jenrick might simply mean what he says.
I curate my beliefs the same as everyone does. My politics have changed over time, but not as much as Jenerick, who's gone on quite the political journey over the last 10 years. Maybe it's genuine, or maybe he is the one curating his opinions based on what's politically expedient for him at the time.

Quote:
There has been a sea-change in public discourse over the past few years - I refuse to believe you’re so deaf you can’t hear it. But until you’re ready to engage with it as opposed to labelling it ‘gaslighting’ (and by making that accusation you’re actually doing the very thing you’ve accused Jenrick of doing), you’re going to be powerless to stop it. At this point by the way I mean ‘you’ very much in the plural, i.e. all those whose instinct reply along the lines of ‘you can’t say that’ when forced to confront the protests of the lumpen proles.
I know there is a sea-change in discourse, it's just I disagree with a lot of it. I don't think it's wrong to want to stop illegal migration. I don't think it's racist to say that. What I do disagree with most at the moment is the talk of going after migrants who have Leave to Remain, and discussions on who counts as English. The latter was never on the table when I was growing up, and now it's relatively common in the right-wing 'commentariat. It's that argument I think Jenerick is trapping into.

A popular view into why this sea-change happened is that the left got too confident, got too wrapped up in its own bubble, lost connection with the wider public and pushed views totally alien to them. I think the online right is starting to make the same mistake, giddy on how much the cultural pendulum has swung back in their direction, and Jenerick is too encased in that world.

I am not really sure what else to say, other than to see where he goes next.

1andrew1 15-10-2025 11:34
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Thoghtful article on why the Conservative Party has been severely weakened by Brexit
Quote:
How Brexit drained the Tories’ talent pool

The party can’t keep expecting successful people to pretend that leaving the EU was a good idea

Given the scale of the damage it has done to the United Kingdom’s reputation, the hurdles it has placed on businesses, tourists and consumers, it can seem a little eccentric to note that Brexit has also been an utterly rotten deal for the Conservative party.

It brought the premiership of David Cameron to an abrupt end and took the frontline career of George Osborne, the Tories’ most brilliant strategist, down with it. The reconfiguration of British politics and voting it helped to accelerate means that the party has lost, probably for ever, the electoral coalition that helped it to win in 2015 — smaller, yes, in terms of votes gained than those of 2017 or 2019, but one largely comprised of voters with a direct self-interest in economic dynamism and an appetite for tax cuts.

And far from sending Nigel Farage into retirement once and for all, as its advocates once claimed would be the case, Brexit has put him in a position from where he could become Britain’s next prime minister — potentially relegating the Conservatives to minor party status in the process.

More damagingly still, Brexit destroyed the party’s relationship with the chunk of the electorate that the Conservatives will always need if they are not only to win elections but to govern effectively: successful people in the middle of their careers.

Not everyone whose journey on the Eurostar used to end with a near-frictionless arrival at St Pancras feels an emotional connection to the European project. Nor does every small business owner who no longer trades with the continent experience a pang of regret when they are reminded that the UK is no longer in the single market. But they do all experience a sense of irritation at barriers to their pleasures or their profits having been erected against their will.

If you remove the already large group of people who would make excellent Tory MPs but are doing perfectly well for themselves in jobs they enjoy, and then require the remainder to believe Brexit has turned out to be a good decision, or pretend they do, your talent pool becomes very shallow indeed. The Conservatives’ current approach is a bit like saying you can only fully participate in the political life of the party as long as you don’t own a television — sure, you will get some good people, but not very many.
https://archive.ph/Np6JE

Sephiroth 15-10-2025 13:51
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 

Quote:
Given the scale of the damage it has done to the United Kingdom’s reputation, the hurdles it has placed on businesses, tourists and consumers, it can seem a little eccentric to note that Brexit has also been an utterly rotten deal for the Conservative party.
Above quote from the article is key. As is:

[QUOTE]And far from sending Nigel Farage into retirement once and for all, as its advocates once claimed would be the case, Brexit has put him in a position from where he could become Britain’s next prime minister — potentially relegating the Conservatives to minor party status in the process. [/QUOTE

The first quote puts the author into the Remain camp. Thus we have to treat his assertion that "Brexit has drained the Tories' talent pool" in that light.

In the rest of his article, he further asserts that because Brexit has made everything more difficult, the British talent pool of businessmen has deserted the Tories.

Well, the 2024 election result supports that assertion, at least to a degree. But the 2019 election result proved the significant public support for Brexit, as did the Referendum.

Brexit is a political failure due to not exercising our freedoms effectively.

This takes me to the second quote. Putting Farage closer to becoming victory is an expression of British will as currently expressed in the polls.

The public now disbelieve both Labour and Tories. The latter need to demonstrate their capability at political level to regain trust (culling the front bench of previous losers would be a good start). Talent pool would follow any success in the popularity stakes.

If the talent pool joins Reform UK, then they will have a fair chance at demonstrating their future competence.

Carth 15-10-2025 15:16
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Give over explaining stuff Seph, you and I both know Brexit is the standard fall back excuse for when nothing is going your way and the Govt. have no way to fix things :D

Sephiroth 15-10-2025 15:27
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36204720)
Give over explaining stuff Seph, you and I both know Brexit is the standard fall back excuse for when nothing is going your way and the Govt. have no way to fix things :D
If I and others) follow your advice, Carth, the Remainers will prevail in this forum.

In defiance of you (!), I remind the Remainers that we are a sovereign country run by a bunch of t*ssers. It's up to Reform or the Tories to come up with doable plans to set the country right.

I also remind Remainers that we have Ireland (perfidious government) to our west; France (an even more perfidious government) to the east. Hungary's and Slovakia's governments are Putin fans and stirring things up politically.

1andrew1 15-10-2025 15:35
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36204715)

Above quote from the article is key. As is:
Quote:
And far from sending Nigel Farage into retirement once and for all, as its advocates once claimed would be the case, Brexit has put him in a position from where he could become Britain’s next prime minister — potentially relegating the Conservatives to minor party status in the process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36204715)
The first quote puts the author into the Remain camp.
Whllst it's information not opinion, I agree the author has used more colourful language than a civil servant might use! ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36204715)
Thus we have to treat his assertion that "Brexit has drained the Tories' talent pool" in that light.

Obviously I don't think we do, his argument stands or falls on its own merits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36204715)
In the rest of his article, he further asserts that because Brexit has made everything more difficult, the British talent pool of businessmen has deserted the Tories.

Well, the 2024 election result supports that assertion, at least to a degree. But the 2019 election result proved the significant public support for Brexit, as did the Referendum.

Brexit is a political failure due to not exercising our freedoms effectively.

This takes me to the second quote. Putting Farage closer to becoming victory is an expression of British will as currently expressed in the polls.

The public now disbelieve both Labour and Tories. The latter need to demonstrate their capability at political level to regain trust (culling the front bench of previous losers would be a good start). Talent pool would follow any success in the popularity stakes.
I think the article is suggesting the talent pool is significantly reduced due to the Conservatives not openly acknowledging the damages of Brexit on British business. This places it at odds with British business, which it traditionally been alongside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36204715)
If the talent pool joins Reform UK, then they will have a fair chance at demonstrating their future competence.
The smaller pro-Brexit business talent pool will be split across two parties. I'm not sure where the far larger anti-Brexit business talent pool will go. Some may avoid politics altogether and some may join the Lib Dems until Conservative Party front-benchers can openly acknowledge the damage of Brexit on British business.

thenry 22-10-2025 08:58
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Robert Jenrick, the shadow justice secretary, has said that he would probably support banning women wearing burqas in public.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...e-news-updates
I get these ladies confused with religious figure heads like imams.

Damien 22-10-2025 10:15
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
In addition to that (I don't think we should ban it), the Tories' immigration plan is very much matching reform and quite nasty: https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/katie-...ent-5HjdFgC_2/

I'll link to the actual legislation: https://publications.parliament.uk/p...234/240234.pdf

Quote:
3 Revocation of Indefinite Leave to Remain in certain circumstances

(1) Indefinite leave to remain in the United Kingdom is revoked with respect to a person ("P") if any of the following conditions apply.

(2) Condition 1 is that P is defined as a "foreign criminal" under section 32 of the UK Borders Act 2007.

(3) Condition 2 is that P was granted indefinite leave to remain after the coming into force of this Act, but would not be eligible for indefinite leave under the requirements of section 2.

(4) Condition 3 is that P, or any dependents of P, have been in receipt of any form of "social protection" (including housing) from the UK Government or a local authority, where "social protection" is defined according to the Treasury's Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses, subject to any further definition by immigration rules.

(5) Condition 4 is that P's annual income has fallen below £38,700 for six months or more in aggregate during the relevant qualification period, or subsequent to receiving indefinite leave to remain.

(6) A person who has entered the United Kingdom—
  • (a) under the Ukraine visa schemes;
  • (b) under the Afghan Citizens Resettlement Scheme;
  • (c) under the Afghan Relocations and Assistance Policy; or
  • (d) on a British National Overseas visa,
is exempt from the requirements of Condition 2, Condition 3, and Condition 4.

(7) For the purposes of subsection (5) –
  • (a) The condition applies only to earnings that have been lawfully reported to, or subject to withholding of tax by, HM Revenue and Customs; and
  • (b) The relevant sum of annual income must be adjusted annually by the Secretary of State through immigration rules to reflect inflation.

(8) The Secretary of State may by immigration rules vary the conditions set out in this section.
This is a mass deportation of people who are here legally. There is no exception for pensioners who've since retired, whose salary is below £38,000, and who receive social protection in either pensions or other benefits. People who may have families here, lives here, have worked here, and who did everything legally and by the rules set out.

This isn't Reform. It's actually slightly worse than reform as far as I can see.

I don't like the way this country is going. I may be wrong but I also don't think most people in the country support this whatever they say on X.

Chris 22-10-2025 10:54
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
The internationalist Left’s chickens are coming home to roost. The whole point of an immigration policy that excludes people who came here legally is to address the claim that many of them should not have been allowed to come here legally in the first place. It is a deliberate unpicking of prior policy, rather than simply accepting the ratchet effect of being unable to undo something which should arguably never have been allowed.

Personally I think there should be more effort to create voluntary resettlement schemes before going in hard in the way this act would. And I’m generally not a fan of enabling clauses that give secretaries of state too much leeway to vary the rules. However, I find some parts of this country unrecognisable any more and I don’t accept that it is racist to object to rapid social change, well within the span of a generation, in order to facilitate people to whom we have no legal or moral obligation. We are not the world’s health and social care system.

When mainstream politicians start to advocate for moves like this, it is only ever because they have begun to detect this is what their voters want. We do still live in a democracy and it should not be anathema in a democracy to propose doing what voters are asking for. As has been observed on this forum on and off over many years, the previous Labour administration is known to have operated an immigration policy designed to ‘rub the Right’s noses in it’. Nobody has sought to address the long-term consequences of such cack-handed social engineering since then, and here we are reaping them now in the policy proposals of a major UK political party.

Damien 22-10-2025 11:18
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
I would be surprised if this is what people want. The polling suggests otherwise.

This isn't a tightening of immigration rules; this is a huge deportation effort. I don't think it's practical, but leaving that aside, when you get to the tens of thousands of people being deported, many of whom may have been here most of their lives, then I think there will be a backlash.

There are so many people whose entire lives are here, such as those who moved here legally from the EU as far back as the 1970s, who will be subject to deportation from the UK for nothing other than not being British citizens. It doesn't matter if they followed the rules, did everything asked of them, and contributed to society. Few exceptions will allow them to stay. I believe there are 4 million or so EU citizens with Leave to Remain, and because of how long that EU route has been open, many will be retired and therefore subject to deportation.

This is online brain rot from the Tories and Reform. Too much time engaging on X, getting angry at the online left, and radicalising themselves from ordinary people who'll want immigration curtailed and order restored, but have shown little support for deporting the people the Tories are now intentionally going after. The right are just as capable of living in a bubble and getting carried away with recent success to understand there is a limit to what people will accept.

Pierre 22-10-2025 11:30
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36205082)
In addition to that (I don't think we should ban it), the Tories' immigration plan is very much matching reform and quite nasty: https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/katie-...ent-5HjdFgC_2/

I'll link to the actual legislation: https://publications.parliament.uk/p...234/240234.pdf



This is a mass deportation of people who are here legally. There is no exception for pensioners who've since retired, whose salary is below £38,000, and who receive social protection in either pensions or other benefits. People who may have families here, lives here, have worked here, and who did everything legally and by the rules set out.

This isn't Reform. It's actually slightly worse than reform as far as I can see.

I don't like the way this country is going. I may be wrong but I also don't think most people in the country support this whatever they say on X.
They may be here legally, but they have no right to stay.

If they are foreign nationals that are on benefits, why do we want them here? When we have people that have served their country on the streets.

If you're not a british citizen and you've come here for work.....when the work stops then you go back. You shouldn't be allowed to collect benefits.

If you've married and/or had a family and made your life here, then become a british citizen.

---------- Post added at 11:30 ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36205087)
and contributed to society.
For me, this is the bottom line.

The only think to agree is the length of time, and whether they're allowed to access benefits if they lose their job.


https://www.migrationcentral.co.uk/p...eign-nationals

Stop foreign nationals claiming benefits and you can plug Reeves' 22Billion black hole

Damien 22-10-2025 11:51
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36205088)
They may be here legally, but they have no right to stay.
I think they do, if they've come here legally and fulfilled the requirements. To retrospectively remove that from everyone is a very radical policy. It goes beyond anything we've seen in Western countries, including Trump, who isn't going after Green card holders.

Quote:
If they are foreign nationals that are on benefits, why do we want them here? When we have people that have served their country on the streets.
Well, it depends on the benefits and why, doesn't it? If someone has worked a decent amount of time and is in receipt of child benefit, or they've earned their state pension and paid NI contributions, then why not?

Quote:
If you're not a british citizen and you've come here for work.....when the work stops then you go back. You shouldn't be allowed to collect benefits.

If you've married and/or had a family and made your life here, then become a british citizen.
This is a requirement that most countries don't ask of residents. It's why we have ILR, Green Cards and Visas. It also costs something like £2,000 to become a citizen.

The other thing here is the consequences to our relations with other countries when we embark on one of the most aggressive deportation policies that we can remember, including sending millions of EU citizens back to Europe.

This is all boiling frog in water stuff. We've gone from we have to stop the boats to the mass deportation of millions of legally here citizens, with the only exception being if they're currently working and earning more than £38,000. The BNP didn't go this far back in the early 2000s. I can't think of a recent democratic country that's gone this far.

The only saving grace is that it's completely unworkable.

Sephiroth 22-10-2025 11:54
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Didn’t the Germans do something similar to the Jews?

Carth 22-10-2025 12:12
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
On the face of it, it does seem like a nasty indiscriminate policy . . depending on your views I guess.

It's a pity that the Government can't be as 'nasty' as this dealing with Drugs, Knife Crime, Gang Culture etc

I'd rather have safer streets than empty streets :D

Sephiroth 22-10-2025 13:07
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
I feel safe in streets populated by people of Indian, Chinese, Jewish heritage.

papa smurf 22-10-2025 13:10
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36205102)
I feel safe in streets populated by people of Indian, Chinese, Jewish heritage.
you won't like it here then

Damien 22-10-2025 13:10
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
As I said, I don't think it will happen. It would cause havoc domestically as you tried to actually implement it. When people actually see the stories of pensioners having their pension taken away and told to leave, families split up, e.t.c, then it's not so easy to defend, and people will object. Not to mention how practically difficult it would become.

Internationally it would cause problems too. There are Brits in Europe with their equivalent of Leave to Remain who might be worried they would get the same treatment back.

I think they're only doing it to appeal to the Online right, the ones who spent a great deal of time judging other people's Englishness. Other than the polling, I have looked for right-wing reactions otherwise of X but could only find an article in The Spectator condemning it.

Still, it's a published policy from the party of the opposition so something to take seriously.

Sephiroth 22-10-2025 13:22
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Reform will need to reverse that policy. There would be a whole raft of laws they would need to introduce to negate common law and that would be beyond them or, indeed, any party that tried to govern through democratic institutions.

1andrew1 22-10-2025 13:28
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Are the Conservatives playing the long game here? They know they can't win the next election. By adopting this policy, they are encouraging Reform UK to continue with their policy knowing it will all fall apart if Reform UK try to deliver on it.

Pierre 22-10-2025 13:55
Re: Conservative Party's chronicles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 3620509)

The other thing here is the consequences to our relations with other countries when we embark on one of the most aggressive deportation policies that we can remember, including sending millions of EU citizens back to Europe.
Let's not dance around the issue.

I don't think they'll be sending back EU citizens...........


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