Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly38wr66dro

They now have to decide what the tree was actually worth, which is a material concern in criminal damage cases.

Both these fools are now locked up on remand, but they will certainly be spending a lot longer in jail after their get sentenced in July.

I seriously can’t get my head round what they thought they were achieving.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

it's a lot of fuss for a tree, we've only got 3 billion of them in the UK.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

I keep thinking something along the lines of legendary status. Foolish way to become part of history but some do some strange things.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

I kind of have to agree to this, whilst I’m aware of its significance. It seems odd that we have prisons running at nearly at 100% capacity and yet we choose to remand individuals who represent minimal risk to people in society.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Yep, the whole reaction to this is just way OTT.
Same with that other one the pub cut down, its just a tree.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Yep they are insane rotters, and should be sent down for it. However a week long trial? There are for worse crimes being committed every day with 1 % of the coverage and court time.

Make them plant and pay for 10 000 trees would be an appropriate sentence, or as is more likely, send them inside for a few weeks , and then let them out to sell their nutty story to the papers ( which are made from trees..). Then be a benefit burden to the state...

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Two of them tried together on 2 counts each - having served on a couple of jury trials, I think that is about the time required. It depends how much of the evidence is contested, really. And these two Einsteins thought they could convince the jury it was all some big coincidence that their phone and their car were tracked to and from the Gap, and that one of them had a video of a tree being chopped down, geolocated to the same place.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Just stop oil throwing paint at a painting it is just a painting no big deal

Well it is criminal damage and the tree is or historical importance as is the painting. No difference.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

So what is meant to be the basis for the valuation?

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

What's the going price of logs

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Did the tree attract tourism ? if so there is loss of revenue from that to consider in damages. It is not as simple as saying it is just a tree

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

There isnt one, since it was never for sale (or going to be), in fact, who "owned" it.

---------- Post added at 22:06 ---------- Previous post was at 22:06 ----------

It really is.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

It did attract tourism, having really begun to be very famous when it featured in Robin Hood Prince of Thieves in 1990. There will be lost tourism costs, but also costs associated with disposal of the tree and grounds maintenance costs with nurturing its replacement over several years to come.

It really isn’t “just a tree”, no matter how perplexing all this is to those who think in such black and white terms. ;)

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

A pair of knobheads whose motivation, I know not.

But, guilty only of being a public nuisance at the most, by any reasonable person, and they should never have been incarcerated, if they have been, at all …ever.

There’s tens of thousands of real crimes that impact people every day, that are ignored by the police.

This, is not a major criminal offence, if it’s criminal at all.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

It’s criminal damage, according to law and the decision of a jury - and as the damage exceeds £5k it is subject to up to 10 years in jail. :shrug:

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Nearly All that agreed……..it is just a tree.

Who owns it?

Because, surely only whoever owns it can claim against it, and can they prove they own it?

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

I agree with you

If it attracted tourism then there is a tangible loss of revenue. How you would measure that I do not know but there is a loss

---------- Post added at 22:47 ---------- Previous post was at 22:45 ----------

what about the hotels that put up tourists who come to see the tree from the film? the cafes and restaurants that fed them? it could be argued they lost potential income.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Irrelevant. The hotels don’t own the tree, and therefore have no claim over it.

They may lose revenue, but they have no recourse against the lumberjacks.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

The landowner, and therefore the owner of the tree, is the National Trust. Expect them to include costs borne by any local tenant of theirs as part of the overall damage cost.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Tourists ? How many, given its in a 34 year old film for about a minute.
I've seen the film at least twice and still dont really remember that small scene, I had to look it up.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

It was just a tree now it's just fire wood, let's not elevate it to sainthood.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Ok lets change it up

Do you think it is ok these guys went and cut down the tree?

If not do you think playing down as just a tree serves any good? afterall knocking down a castle must be ok too because it is just stone or filling in a lake because it is just water

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

i think some good can come from this, the logs can be donated to pensioners who have log burners to keep warm

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

So everybody that cuts down a tree should be prosecuted in the same way?
The reactions are disproportionate to the act.
Nothing special about a tree at the bottom of a valley.
Still nowhere near a valuation of over £600,000.
Compare that with £10,000 of damage to a Van Gogh painting.
Nobody would have an overnight hotel stay just to get a selfie with it.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

I think this really goes to show the differences between each other. :(

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Reality check

To build the Royal Navy's ships, particularly during the late 1700s and early 1800s, an estimated 1.2 million oak trees were felled. This was primarily for constructing ships of the line, with a large ship like HMS Victory needing around 6,000 trees.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Link

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

I don’t think anyone thinks it’s ok that anyone cut down a tree nor the fact that there was also damage to Hadrians Wall due to the felling.

However, I’d like anyone to justify why they should be held on remand until sentencing? Its been done as a public appeasement rather than anything else

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Another reality check… ;)

In Medieval England, trespass against the vert, meaning harming or damaging the forest's vegetation, carried severe penalties, including fines, mutilation, and even death, depending on the severity of the offense. Punishments for disrupting the forest's natural state varied significantly, with fines being common for minor infractions and more severe punishments, such as blinding or cutting off limbs, for those who disturbed deer or boar

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

You've said it yourself. Explain why the need for it to be a public appeasement if it was 'just' a tree?

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

If you read up on my earlier post I’m not saying that the tree doesn’t hold significance.

Justify why someone who is convicted of a violent offence can be given bail until sentencing , however for this offence the pair are remanded. Because after a quick Google


‘Remand before sentencing, or custodial remand, should be used as a last resort, only when there are compelling reasons to believe the defendant will not appear for court or might pose a danger to the public if released. Specifically, a judge might remand someone in custody if they believe the defendant is likely to abscond, commit further offenses while on bail, or might interfere with witnesses or the course of justice’

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

further reality check it's 2025;)

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

The law basically. Destruction of anything of value over £5k could be imprisonment for up to 10 years. Which kinds makes it a serious offence.

One of the 'idiots' wanted to be put on remand for their own protection.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

well protected trees yes. There are laws on cutting down trees too. Do you advocate law breaking on open forum?

---------- Post added at 12:28 ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 ----------

do you know these persons history?? their record?

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

No, do you ? Your point holds no relevance whatsoever as many people that are convicted of violent or sexual offences are granted bail before their sentencing hearing

The limited availability of prison places would suggest that those convicted of the most serious offences should be remanded. Unless of course you think that two counts of criminal damage is more serious than sexual assault/manslaughter etc. ?

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

No but I simply do not make assumptions and jump to conclusions without evidence.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

The answer to your question is in the link in the OP.

I have read elsewhere additionally that for one of them there is a flight risk.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Where somebody else cuts down a tree, protected or not, it might just about make local news. It wouldn't make national news and wouldn't be valued at over £600,000. Any record they might or might not have is irrelevant.
Just a massive unjustifiable over-reaction.

---------- Post added at 18:23 ---------- Previous post was at 18:21 ----------

Why would they need protection? If they do, then arrest those attacking and harassing them.That especially includes the media.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

I disagree so lets draw a line there

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Yup thanks i went back and reread. If the judge believes that the pair are at risk from retaliation or vendetta action from the public then imho that’s a bigger issue than the tree being chopped down in the first place

Wasn’t aware of the flight risk

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

In their defence did they make clear money doesn't grow on trees should a fine of some sort be levied against them :shocked:

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

No, thats never been in question.

The massive over reaction is the issue.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

I really don't like the idea that anyone should think that cutting down a landmark oak tree is neither here nor there. Oak trees are rather special historically because of our naval history and the fact it takes so much time for an oak tree to grow to such a size as this should have afforded it some respect. I don't understand what was going through the mind of these two idiots except perhaps a reliance on too much alcohol.

The act was disrespectful and does require some sort of measured response or we could face people just chopping down and defacing our natural landmark trees and destroying other historical treasures just for fun. It was vandalism of the worst sort.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

I thought it was a sycamore tree

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Wasn't an Oak tree. Not a landmark. Not a historical treasure.
Just a hysterical over-reaction. Still no explanation of why it was worth over £5,000, never mind £600,000.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Its not worth anything unless you can sell it, and afaik, there were no plans to do that.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Sorry I thought it was an Oak.My mind is all over the place today.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

These people had no right to go and destroy a tree that did not belong to them.


However, talking about lengthy prison sentences is absolutely barmy!
Wasting tax payers money to keep these two in prison....what a joke!
They should be made to do a five year tree planting programme or active work to re-populate the forrests / or other envionmental work.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

They should get 10 years max. They should build gallows from the wood and hang them both from it. They should get a fine and plant trees via community service... Yes it's just a tree.

Got to admit, it's very divisive. Maybe if they owned up and pleaded guilty and gave a reason it might have helped them. But they didn't. I hope that choice goes against them and they pay the price for it.

As for 'just a tree'.. It was a world famous tree. It brought tourism and photographers from all over to a world heritage site. It bought joy to people and there will be local businesses that will now lose out because it.

The point is that it's not just the tree, it's the anger and stupidity that is hard to quantify that 2 idiots could do something like that for what, fun? And spoil and natural beauty spot for all and that something that has stood for over 150 years and bought pleasure to many. That is what I find really sad.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Where’s all the outrage about Mitchells & Butlers (the owners of Toby carvery) felling a five hundred year old oak tree ?

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Create a post and I will post my outrage

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Pun intended ?

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

There was some (well quite a bit) but I guess the difference is they did it in good faith based on advice they were given, not as a malicious act.

Still, again, just a tree ......

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Both of them sent to jail for 4 years and 3 months each. And the one with the chainsaw has had his Range Rover confiscated.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Legends.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

:confused:

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

You mean legendary stupid and dumb, right ?

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

This

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Treemendous legends :)


i think the punishment is a bit harsh, i would have thought community service wood [see what i did there] suffice

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Idiots don’t become legends. Idiots become infamous, or notorious. Perhaps both.

These two are A-grade, ocean-going idiots.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

If you say so :rolleyes:

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Guessing you didn’t bother to read any of the details of the case then.

But sure, go on thinking that destroying something you know is meaningful to an enormous number of people, and then laughing about it on social media, somehow means these are just your regular mad geezers who you just know are a great laff down the local on a Friday night.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

I don't know what you're on about.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Stupid, idiotic, yes.

4 years inside, no.

Ridiculous, Pakistani rape gang participants have received similar.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

In a criminal damage case the sentencing range is determined by the financial loss. Their defence accepted it was in excess of £5,000 (The National Trust has spent 10s of £ks on remedial work with more to come, and English Heritage will spend around £7k repairing Hadrian’s Wall, which is a bargain considering it’s 2,000 years old and a world heritage site).

The cultural significance of the tree and the Wall and the fact they bragged about it to their mates were aggravating factors.

Rape gang offences are another matter entirely and ought to be dealt with rather more seriously than they are.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Let me clarify. They are not legends, just idiots.
Only a fool would consider them to be legends of any sort.

---------- Post added at 22:14 ---------- Previous post was at 22:11 ----------

Dont forget the 3 months as well.
It does seems a bit OTT, even for idiots like them.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

That's your opinion. Written in history will be their names associated with the tree.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Nothing special about the tree. In any other location or even just viewed from a different angle, it's just a tree. A clue is in the term "Gap". It's the "gap" that makes it anything.
Is there any evidence that many people knew about it before the appearance in the film?

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

No such evidence is required. :shrug:

It has a value well in excess of £5k *now* - prosecution and defence agreed so. That’s all that’s necessary for the offences to be dealt with on the more serious scale for criminal damage.

It is also relevant that the National Trust and English Heritage have now spent far in excess of this on mitigating measures.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Average range of sentence for others has been 5 to 7 months. Upper range of guidelines is 4 years, and that might be for damage well in excess of £1m. These are the official CPS and sentencing guidelines.
If you viewed the tree from 90 degrees from how it's normally pictured, it would just be a tree with no special meaning.
What mitigating measures, and what have they got to do with any damage?
The sentencing was way out of proportion and arises from the hysteria surrounding events.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

Before we go any further, did you watch the sentencing hearing? Because a qualified crown court judge explained exactly, in considerable detail, how she arrived at the sentence, with reference to the sentencing guidelines, that (I take a wild guess) she understands significantly better than you do …

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

That tree will be forgotten in 20 years and so will their names by association, it's a weird idea anyway, they give up years of their lives and a range rover just to get their names remembered for one of the lamest crimes in history, these leg ends are hardly the Krays or Jimmy Saville

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

It was well outside of the sentencing guidelines.

Re: Pair guilty of cutting down Sycamore Gap tree
 

It was no such thing, as you’d understand if you’d listened to a subject matter expert explaining it rather than skim-reading a few documents off the internet and assuming you know best.