UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

UK demands access to Apple users' encrypted data.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20g288yldko

Personally I dont use Apple, but IMO the UK govt is way out of order and Apple should tell them to "shove it".

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Sums up who it's really aimed at.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Apple are big and wealthy enough to fight this off like they did when the FBI came knocking. It would interesting to see what they would do if Trump did something similar.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Fair enough, Apple users are a bit suspect.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

This will be applied to Google and Meta as well. I hope Apple fights back as hard as it can.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Yes, are Apple and Google as vulnerable to US state appropriation of data in a similar way to China with TikTok or does their size preclude this?

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

How exactly would this work, would the government have access to everyone's data for no particular reason or would it be for people suspected of criminal activity?

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

They'll tell you its the second reason, but in reality, it'll be the first.

Yes they are getting as bad as the US GOVT!!

I sure hope Apple doeant give in!!

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Nothing could be as bad as that.

No your right my friend!!!!

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Bang out of order. The government know enough about us already. This is not good.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

What have folks got to hide? Undeclared income? dodgy torrent data? Or even worse?
The Govt knows best surely? ;)

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

i have no problem with the gov accessing my phone as long as i can accesses theirs in this spirit of nothing to hid

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

You can, Freedom of Information Act. Maybe the Govt wants it to work both ways?

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

:rofl:

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Not sure I want to read those 'charming' WhatsApp messages from what we've learnt so far!

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

At the end of the day the people are going to have to decide upon two things.

1) What is more important to them, their own personal privacy or law enforcement agencies being able to find child sex abusers, terrorists etc. As most people won't have been affected by such acts, I suspect that they will opt for the former.

2) Who rules our country and decides how the law should operate, the elected government of the day, or website owners?

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

It's very good of you to give us 2 options

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

They would refuse on the grounds of national security which is the standard cop out.

Now that sounds excellent!!

I doubt they would agree though!

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

What additional options would you say are available?

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

This is your fantasy not mine :)

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

You are taking the mick, I hope. :p: It's not a question of having anything to hide. Governments have a very poor track record on data safety. They already know, or are finding out, things they don't need to know and shouldn't. I got asked for bank statements by the DWP - when they've just been given ridiculously broad powers to look at people's bank accounts. "Oh, he's got an ISA, he might be hiding 1000s'.

Yeah. I didn't immediately declare it, granted, but that's because mine has precisely 1p in it, and has had since March '22. I got it years ago and I keep it open just in case. But in fact my bank balance has never even reached 5 figures. I mean never.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

I get that it is important to uncover all those doing dodgy things but essentially the government are labelling everyone as that and at the end of the day it is invading my privacy.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Welcome to communism

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

What you calling our beloved labour party.:erm:

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Are we discussing the Investigatory Powers (Amendment) Act 2024 that received Royal Assent in April 2024?

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Well, we can't have it both ways can we. To uncover dodgy activity we're going to have to accept innocuous things no longer being private or retain our privacy and accept that terrorist plots, paedophile activity etc etc will go undetected.

I have asked if anyone has ideas for a third way that satisfies both, but nobody seems to have any suggestions.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

You make the same mistake as the idiots requesting this.
It WILL NOT suddenly stop "terrorist plots, paedophile activity etc etc".
They will simply move on to using something else, all that will be affected is OUR privacy.

There is no "third way". The answer is as simple as its always been, leave it alone.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

There’s already a third way IIRC it’s a criminal offence to not provide the police access to a secured device under s49 RIPA (or something like that) it carries a two year custodial sentence but this is very rarely used.

Surely a simple action would just to make it an automatic ten year sentence

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

I'm sure that they will move onto using a different service to circumvent this, yes, but to not do so is akin to someone saying that they won't install a burglar alarm because burglars will choose other unalarmed houses.

The answer would be for other houses to install a burglar alarm too, which is an analogy for the government to change the law to allow itself access to all messaging services.

However, this means we are then back to the situation where the electorate must decide whether it favours personal privacy or easier detection of crimes like terrorism, paedophilic activity etc.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

The fact you actually believe this shows you dont understand.

In that example, which isnt really close at all, it would be like giving the burglers the keys to your house, so when they break in, they dont have to kick down the door first.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

You do have to ask about the rights of people who need to communicate securely, maybe with family in other parts of the world with unfriendly governmental actors. Or whistle blowers etc.
If you build in a backdoor for the government, how long before that backdoor is compromised? What about a future government?
I don't want anyone other than myself and intended recipients to be able to access my data. The fact that the same secure platforms are used for illegal purposes doesn't mean we weaken the platform for everyone. We don't ban cars because some people use them illegally or irresponsibly.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

You make some valid points. It'll be interesting to see how this turns out.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Which they use all the time.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Apple has pulled the advanced encryption features now: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgj54eq4vejo

Pathetic policy.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

As you particularly know only too well, I'm part of a paedophile hunter group. my team nor I claim to know it all (it's a case of "you build a bigger mouse trap, we'll build a bigger mouse") but I can assure you this will do little if anything to deter the preds. I suspect you know they rarely work alone and will simply collaborate to find newer ways to exchange /access material without getting caught.

You may slow them down temporarily, but you won't stop them.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Looks like this is a compromise so that the law enforcement agencies can access material if necessary, without having to build a back door or master key. Apple say that they don't want to do this as to do so could eventually be used to allow unauthorised people in.

---------- Post added at 18:59 ---------- Previous post was at 18:49 ----------

Things like this are always a game of cat and mouse. Just as your group intend to dynamically react to the way that child sex abusers change their methods to try to escape detection, it looks like wider society is doing the same.

I suspect that the vast amount of child exploitation goes undetected, but that doesn't mean that everybody should stop trying to eradicate it.

It's also not confined to trying to prevent & detect child sex abusers, it's also being done to deal with other unlawful activity like terrorism.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

i wonder if this will have an impact on i phone sales

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Its not a compromise at all, Apple have been forced to remove this service to UK users.

The only people this will affect are normal UK users. Great own goal by our incredibly stupid government. :rolleyes:

As has been said many times, if you think this will have any effect at all on criminals, you are as naive as the idiots who forced apple into this position.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Not massively I wouldn't think. I don't think Android has this (outside of a third-party service) and not a lot of Apple users had the featured turned on. I didn't actually turn it on.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

About time these guys got booted. Has a government ever gone from such a big majority to being so hated in such a short space of time?

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Wouldn't make a difference. Both parties are like this. The law in question was passed by the Tories.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Speak for yourself. How would someone boot them and who do you suggest replaces them? Hopefully in a few years time, when election time arrives, it won't be the previous incompetent and corrupt shower back in.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

It needs to become a voter loser to bring these policies in but it simply isn't because the public doesn't care, the media never properly explains to them the dangers and instead paints those who defend encryption as defending the worst kind of criminals.

Again Labour wanted to bring some of this in before 2010, Cameron wanted to do so but was stopped by the Lib Dems, the Tories then passed it and Corbyn's Labour abstained (i.e let it pass) and now Labour are continuing it.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

CIA looking into UK's reported backdoor request to Apple encryption
Tulsi Gabbard, the US director of national intelligence, has said that a request from the UK to Apple for a backdoor to be put in their encryption would be a "clear and egregious violation" of American's privacy and civil liberties.



https://news.sky.com/story/cia-looki...ption-13317592

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

As if the CIA didn't want us to do this. Five Eyes means anything we get, they get.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

People interested in this topic may find this two part programme interesting:

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/...itcoin-creator

It's primarily about trying to find out about the person(s) who invented Bitcoin, but has a lot of interesting information as to why governments don't like companies or individuals being able to do things on the internet without them being able to access the information and the lengths that they'll go to in order to circumvent this.

They had a fear that people would use Bitcoin to evade paying tax and that, with no money, this would cause governments/democracy to fall. One man had an aggressive police raid for money laundering due to his involvement with Bitcoin.

There are those who would welcome the fall of democracy and the current form of governments (including the grandson of Milton Freedman, whose theories were used by Thatcher).

Some believe that countries should become the equivalent of companies with citizens being reclassified as customers, that groups with a common bond should be allowed to live together and rule themselves ie white supremacists.

It was also said that democracy & freedom were now "surplus to requirements".

At the end the conclusion from the narrator was that the old ways of doing things were now a thing of the past and that things have changed, particularly the election of Trump and the involvement and capability for the richest man in the world, Elon Musk, to influence how things are done.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

UK backs down in Apple privacy row, US says ;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdj2m3rrk74o

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

An Apple a day keeps the lawsuits away :D

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Let's wait to see if they turn it back on.

Finally they are being smart :)

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

I do hope so.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Doesn't look like they will, it will still apply to UK Citizens.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Mustn't do anything that could upset labours lron grip on what we think never mind do

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Labour and Tories. Most of these things were enacted/passed under the Tories and supported and taken up by Labour.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

They are trying again.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c740r0m4mzjo

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

They can 'demand' all they like, heck they can even stamp their feet and wave their arms around if they feel the need to.

I could demand that they act like grown ups in the house of commons . . . won't happen :D

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

We can totally trust this government with data……….

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

I'm pretty sure Apple has already given them the finger :upyours:

But for some reason the our stupid Govt still seems to think thay have some god given right to tell people and companies in other countries what to do.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Apple can't give them the finger. Apple will likely try to fight it, but Parliament controls the laws, and companies have to abide by those laws. Apple won last time because it used the weight of the US Government to force the UK to back down. This time, the Government has limited the request to apply only to the UK so no reason for the US Government to care.

Basically, Apple will lose this fight. iCloud Backups will be available for the security services and police to investigate. WhatsApp messages will be next.

Don't like it? Vote against it. This fight started over 10 years ago. The Lib Dems stopped the Tories from doing the snoopers' charter in 2013, they lost the next election, and the Tories won. Since then, the Tories, and now Labour, want more and more of your data and the media and voters don't care and vote for them anyway.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

I'm not so much worried about this one as I am a future Russian-leaning Reform government.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

No they dont, Apple are not a UK company.
The UK has no rights to tell them to do anything.
Sure .. they could try blocking Apple if they refuse, but given how much its used in the UK, how long do you think that would last.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

They do if they want their goods and services peddled here, they won't be banned, just fined every day they don't do the government's bidding

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Again, not a UK company, why would they pay any fine ?

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Being US-owned doesn't mean you can break UK laws, regardless of what we think of those laws.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

An example of that would be Apple putting USB-C connectors in iPhones to comply with EU rules.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Apple has to abide by the laws of the country in which it is operating. If it impacts the rest of their business, then they might go nuclear and resist, but it will not. They'll challenge it as far as their legal routes to do so exist, but then they'll comply.

I like hearing this!!

Thanx Paul.... Good for Apple!!

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Of course it does, they are UK laws, they dont apply in the US. They may choose to follow them, but they are not forced to.

Again, Apple choose to do that because at the end of the day, it wasnt much of an issue technically, but clearly was in their interest to do so.

Comply how ? Its technically impossible to do so, they dont have master keys or backdoors. The only way to comply would be to add such keys or backdoors to their encryption. They are not going to do that.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Their UK arm does have to follow UK laws. They have a business based here, selling products locally. It's not the same as a business run entirely out of the US where they are out of reach of the UK authorities.

They'll just turn off End to End encryption in the UK.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Yet the EU fined apple half a billion quid a couple of months back and were threatening £50 million a day if they didnt comply with EU law

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

We are not the EU, but you can all believe as you wish.
Seems you all want Apple to give away your security, good luck with that.
I have always stayed well away from them, and will continue to do so.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

I don't want Apple to give away our security. I am saying companies operating in the UK have to abide by UK laws.

This won't stop at Apple; they'll go after WhatsApp as well.

Re: UK trying to access your private data on Apple.
 

Apples not in the EU either, so why the fine? Why have they changed the way their app store works so they don't have to pay a daily fine?

I don't think anyone has said they want apple to make their systems less secure, we just know what's likely to happen based on past precedent