Hamas Israel War
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67041679

Really don’t know where to start with this. Somewhat surprised it’s not a thread on here already. One thing’s for sure, the bloodshed is only just starting. And it’s also worth noting that there is video circulating of Hamas using drone-dropped grenades to very precisely take out Israeli tanks. There are only two militaries in the world that so far have developed the skills to do this. Hamas has been trained either by Ukraine or by Russia. I wonder which it is.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Israel will hit them hard and all we will see then is Hamas crying about it

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Only two militaries have put it into practice publicly.

Given it's quite a primitive technology, if a military of relative novices like Ukraine without any assistance (no laughing at the back) could develop it then there's no reason to expect that the Iranians or anyone else couldn't do the same. Or a well known group of mercenaries active in North Africa. Indeed Russia have been heavily reliant on Iran for drones, not the other way around.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

terrorists?

BBC calls them militants.

Sky calls them Hamas fighters as well as militants.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

A man who takes up arms in order to randomly kill, rape and take hostages is a terrorist. If Hamas was the recognised army of a recognised country, then the these men might, at best, be considered war criminals. But it isn’t. And they’re not.

The language of “militant” and “fighter” represents years of well-meant attempts to be even handed and neutral in reporting on Palestine-Israel but here and now it’s plain equivocation. These men sit in precisely the same category as the Al-Qaeda terrorists who hijacked planes on 9/11 and used them to murder 1,000s of people in New York and Washington.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Wasn't there an incident yesterday where settlers attacked a Palestinian village and killed people? Not saying two wrongs make a right or excusing anything or even that they're as bad as each other, just that it happened

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

They attack, beat up and occasionally kill each other all the time. Nobody covers themselves in humanitarian glory in that part of the world and much of the time they’re as bad as each other.

The fact that these things happen doesn’t excuse or justify today’s events in the slightest. In fact it’s safer not to casually link the two even in conversation, just so as that remains clear.

A lot of the people I follow for Ukraine analysis have started talking about this today so sadly on my Tw*tter feed I’ve seen some stuff I would rather not have (not everyone uses the ‘sensitive content’ screen when sharing graphic video sadly). Seriously, this was a planned and co-ordinated rape-pillage-destroy expedition that would have shamed the Vikings.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Is that the one which was a response to an attack on Israelis?
Did Hamas get thousands of rockets and plan all this overnight?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

In other words it’s safer to censor debate than engage with the fact Israel also commit war crimes in the occupied territories.

It doesn’t excuse or justify. It is absolutely a catalyst.

---------- Post added at 23:56 ---------- Previous post was at 23:55 ----------

And round and round we go.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I think whatever "victories" they may claim they made today will be short lived, this is not going to end well for Hamas.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Or the innocents Hamas surround their weapons caches with in an attempt to dissuade Israel from attacking

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

If I was Israel, I would completely destroy Gaza, just flatten it.

I know that’s what Hamas want, but i would give it to them in spades.

Give them 24hrs warning, then flatten it.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

As Hezbollah won the previous war.

Arabs ain't humans. Flatten them. Shame on you. Despicable person.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Pretty much what they think as well (perhaps not flatten, but certainly attack).

[BBC Coverage]

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

That's the problem, the fact these things happen is what leads directly to this and Jerusalem has been in my timeline for weeks, starting with the assaults on people at the mosque, then those extremist Jews spitting at Christians, almost as if there was something brewing with hindsight, lots of conspiracies on there now about Russian involvement and the Taliban asking for passage to join the fight through Syria

Well well, look whose crawled out the woodwork just in time, it's the zionists number one defender, so much so you are Mark Regev and I'm claiming a fiver

She knows you well Pierre :D

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Did I say anything that is untrue? I did check about the attack you referred to but didn't specify. Your implication was somehow it was linked to the attack by Hamas.
Palestinians barricaded themselves in the mosque,and blocked access for others.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

The residents of Gaza were all out on the streets celebrating the murder of innocent men women and children.

Terrorists parading the body of a young female murdered German tourist in the back of a truck. Half naked, so probably been raped too.

OAPs gunned down at a bus stop.

The list of atrocities is long.


But, yeah, I’m despicable.

When Gaza is destroyed, and the Palestinians are surrounded by rubble of course Israel will then be accused of being the bad actor.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Bad guys on both sides. But you've to ask who has invaded who, and occupying the other's territory. Why Western reporting and Govts are so biased to one side, who aren't exactly angels themselves. Any criticism of Israel isn't antisemitic, whatever the wrongs of the past doesn't give them a free ticket to do whatever. Its situations like this that causes terrorism to thrive.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

While we are sat in a nation that essentially has invaded and kept control over many countries over the years and still keep hold of one of them pretty close by we can hardly hold judgement on a country such as Israel can we

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

That is utter bollocks and the language of a terrorist sympathiser.

Twitter X, is awash with videos that make you sick to your stomach, such as a girl being executed in front of her parents, brother and sister.

I don’t recall Israel doing that.

But they’ll be dropping a lot of ordnance on Gaza over the next weeks, and rightly so.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Including white phosphorus in civilian areas apparently


Let me guess you're going to call my step father and closest thing I had to a dad a self loathing Jew next because he's as disgusted by Israels behaviour over the years as I am and his now deceased mother who was made stateless by the nazis, bet you'd have supported the daily mail in their campaign to stop Jewish people fleeing hitler coming here

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I'm sure if/when Israel raze Gaza to the ground everyone will be out with their Palestinian flags, donating money and weapons and pushing Palestine to conscript every man of fighting age to push to fight for every inch of their own territory (and beyond, it'll be the only way they can truly be safe after all).

Or at least that's where my flowchart has got me, but maybe I'm not following it correctly.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Why does anyone with an ounce of humanity in them need to condemn such a heinous act, it goes without saying and I doubt there is a person on this forum who supports what's happened but here you are going all woke demanding condemnation.

Oh yes it points exactly to my beliefs in that I don't like extremists of any brand and the term has transformed from a perfectly reasonable and laudable ambition of 100+ years ago into what we see today

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Been announced has it? I assume you have a link, I’ll wait.

Unless you’re going to refer to something that was incorrectly reported years ago. WP were used in 2009 to produce instant smoke and noxious fumes to flush out personnel and combatants. They are not a primary incendiary device.

---------- Post added at 19:05 ---------- Previous post was at 18:48 ----------

Also Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005.

They removed everything, even their dead.

There could have been a way forward, but Hamas took over two years later. Hamas are a terrorist organisation no different than ISIS or the Taliban. Israel had no choice but to defend themselves against Hamas and introduce restrictions.

If Hamas had not gained control of Gaza, things could have been very different.

It’s like the U.K. giving the people of Co. Tyrone independence, pulling out all the loyalists and anything else British. Only for the IRA to take control and continue to fire rockets and set bombs etc.

Ham

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Thus far you’re correct. It is an intractable problem and, sad to say, it is never going to have a political resolution - not in the lifetime of anyone living today. The reasons for that are complex and nuanced and routinely misunderstood, especially by those who think that telling the history from 1948 onwards is an adequate approach to it. It really, really isn’t - the seeds of 1948’s conflict were already decades old by that point.

It does. Today it stands condemned for deploying medieval tactics in its pursuit of statehood (and it is a cold irony that as a state it would stand condemned in international law for behaviour half as egregious as this).

In the longer run, it may yet stand condemned in the eyes of moderate Palestinians, once they realise their dreams of statehood are further away than ever. The re-occupation of Gaza by Israel is now inevitable. Its retaliation against Hamas is likely to be wide-ranging. Gaza will be unrecognisable 18 months from now. I wouldn’t even put money on it continuing to exist at all in the long run.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

It’s inevitable. Israel left Gaza, they had a real chance of statehood. Israel is not likely to ever do that again this century.

Gaza will be taken over by Israel, and it will be a bloody conflict.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

You mean the Muslim Brotherhood

fatah and their corruption is the direct reason hamas got into Gaza, it basically died with Arafat and he had the best deal his people could have got and couldn't bring himself to grasp it

Ever considered that such insane acts emanate from a desperate and hopeless situation and their families actually benefit financially from their deaths btw


Considering it took Israel 4 years to admit what they did I fear you're going to have a long wait

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

You’re talking gibberish now? Not sure how any of that relates to my post. Sleep it off and reply tomorrow.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Another serious news thread spoilt by the same faces bickering

Will just go read a newspaper instead

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I wonder if Jeremy Corbyn has phoned his friends in Hamas and asked them if they’d kindly stop raping, kidnapping and murdering people.

Friends in Hamas. Specifically. These people.

To think that Corbyn and his fellow travellers were (albeit briefly) allowed to run one of our two major political parties is all the more chilling. Whatever you think about Boris Johnson and his legacy, what would the alternative have been, had that utter shower been in charge of our government today? To even imagine the equivocation coming out of Downing Street is awful.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67047034

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

You don't really need to imagine he's actually said this on Twitter:

Horrific.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Corbyn is horrific, yes. There’s an entire essay to be written on exactly what he means by ‘occupation’ - there are plenty on the British far left who use that word to describe Israel’s very existence, on the basis that the Israeli state is illegitimate and therefore all ‘Israelis’ are occupiers. Assuming he doesn’t think this way would be being …. generous.

Telling also that his preference is for equivocation like ‘immediate cease fire’ rather than specifically calling on his friends in Hamas to stop the very specifically war-crimey things they’re doing, release civilian hostages and return to Gaza.

An immediate cease fire does rather imply that Hamas gets to continue to occupy those Israeli settlements it has captured and to hold on to the people it has kidnapped. I wonder what reasons he might offer the Israeli government for not immediately retaking its sovereign territory by force and attempting to rescue its citizens.

As a contrast, I offer Keir Starmer’s statement, which says in part that “Labour stands firmly in support of Israel's right to defend itself, rescue hostages and protect its citizens … The indiscriminate attacks from Hamas are unjustifiable and have set back the cause of peace." He has also deliberately used the word ‘terrorism’ in relation to Hamas’ actions, a designation that not everyone on the British left would be willing to admit.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Sounds like you are grasping at straws to insert your own fanciful prejudice to give meaning to Corbyn’s words that isn’t actually there.

Considering everyone predicts the current trajectory to be more war and more bloodshed he’s clearly right that the status quo is not sustainable.

Pierre and yourself have quite eloquently outlined the alternative - essentially a genocide.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I don’t think my view of Corbyn is at all fanciful when his comments are taken in the round, especially in the context of who he has chosen to be seen with, and who he has called his friends over many years. But in the grand scheme of things that’s a sideshow and I have no intention of going on about it for the next 10 pages.

What’s more concerning is that when you look at the conflict, all the way back to its 19th century roots, I think it becomes clear that if there is ever a permanent ‘solution’ it will have been wrought by one side pretty much eliminating the other. If there isn’t a solution then we will continue with a version of the status quo. A state and a non-state, uneasy neighbours occasionally flaring up into murderous cycles of bloodletting.

The so-called ‘two-state solution’ died some time ago but nobody is yet willing to stand up and say so.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Because Hamas pays the families of suicide bombers

You wanted proof, the last time Israel committed that particular war crime it took them 4 years to admit it, hence you'll have a long wait

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Hamas have given us a vivid reminder of the evils of the current Islamist extremes. They are content to die for their faith and here is the result. Saying that, this is a significant failure for the Israeli security services. They are supposed to have Gaza locked down by sea and land but we see 1000's of missiles being smuggled in, assembled and fired into Israel.

What is interesting are the "normal" reactions from both sides where they condemn the other side yet dance around the reasons and underpinnings of these events. Corbyn is a classic example of this. He will not condemn the attacks in clear language yet will pivot back to the behaviour of Israel.

As you can see on this forum, no sensible debate can be had without recognising the faults on both sides. Gaza is the worlds largest prison camp. It has minimal healthcare, water & electricity rationed by Israel and 40% unemployment. Generations have been born in this camp with literally no hope. No wonder the likes of Hamas seduce them. In a way, Israel helped to form Hamas. By refusing to take seriously the PLO and its attempts to pursue a two state solution, it effectedly spawned Hamas and led us here today.

Both sides are signed up a predominantly Old Testament moral code: "an eye for an eye" with the inevitable "sow and ye shall reap". Like some here are doing, everyone in Gaza are treated as terrorists:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67045078

It is sad that world will, quite correctly, focus on the Israelis killed by Hamas, however the innocents killed by the retaliatory IDF bombs will be lost to history.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Irony overload.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Gaza is reliant on Israel because of it's geographical location and it seems to be overcrowded. Not a lot of scope to build an economy, unless Egypt is going to hand over some territory.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Explain

---------- Post added at 10:13 ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 ----------

Gaza is effectively part of Israel. Looking through the lens of Ultra-Zionism, I guess it makes sense to want the to ship some of the Palestinians to Egypt. However, Egypt is not Palestine.

Ultra-Zionism is an often religiously motivated movement to extend the State of Israel to subsume the Palestinian territories, aligning with a perceived goal of reclaiming the "Promised Land" of the Old Testament.

The Palestinian Authority seeks the West Bank as the heartland of a future independent state and so the current Likud administration, the most hard-line for years, is actively countering this:

Netanyahu government makes West Bank settlement expansion its priority

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Any expansion of Gaza would have to come from Egypt. Israel can't be blamed for Gaza's geographical location.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Israel can absolutely be blamed for it’s location and expansion. They aren’t some passive actor, or a victim of chance, when they seize Palestinian land to give it to Israeli settlers.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

You really know very little about this subject.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

You may find this informative

https://www.britannica.com/place/Gaza-Strip

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

That’s the Israelis onto air strikes on refugee camps taking in the Palestinians fleeing their homes.

I presume the “you must condemn Hamas before you can speak of Israeli war crimes” brigade will be out any minute now to unequivocally condemn this.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Don't hold your breath. Only actions against Israel seem to have a mandate for condemnation.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

The deliberate targeting of civilians by any military force should be condemned.

I look forward to your condemnation of the same…

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

“Any military force” sounds a bit Corbyny to me.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Exactly! How about we look around the world and see just how many powder keg situations exist at present that both east, west,north and south are covering their ears and eyes to. How many people on both sides of any of those situations are desperate for those in charge to just shut the f*** up and start to looking at finding ways to make peace.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

What people forget is Israel is an occupying force, . Build settlements in occupied land, which is against international law. Would you fight if England was occupied or just let them get on with the occupation. Reason Britain or usa will not complain of this, is the Jewish vote in both countries.

---------- Post added at 14:29 ---------- Previous post was at 14:27 ----------

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

@noel43

I agree with you but I don't participate in this thread. Chris's thread title is bigoted, no major non-Israeli news organization call Hamas terrorists.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

and yet you just did ... :erm:


Hamas is designated as a terrorist group by the UK [and the EU] as well as the USA.

In fact, by Australia, Canada, European Union, Israel, Japan, Organization of American States, Paraguay, United Kingdom, United States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

(The EU and OAS is over 50 countries in total)

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Well his bias permeates almost every post he makes on the subject you can’t really exempt a thread title. He’s not had much to say about his hypothetical Russian link in the OP, and even less to say about arms from Ukraine turning up in the Middle East.

However it’s important to challenge where people seek to censor opposing thought through their use of language - such as the obligation to criticise Hamas before being permitted to criticise Israel. They’ll criticise opponents for playing the “both sides” card yet are unable (or unwilling) to criticise Israeli actions on their own merit when they are the most egregious breaches of international law and condemned universally by human rights organisations.

Conflating criticism of Israel with antisemitism another classic of the genre.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

It is possible to criticise both sides - you should try it…

---------- Post added at 16:15 ---------- Previous post was at 16:14 ----------

If that’s your default viewpoint, most things would… ;)

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I think you are being harsh here. I think "terrorist" is an accurate description of these people who carried out these attacks. Killing unarmed old & young civilians is a clear example.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Does that make Israel a terrorist state?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Maybe so. Was the Marquis (WW2) in France considered terrorists ''no'' they were classed as freedom fighters. Israel is an occupying force and Hamas is trying to get them out of Palestine. Lets face we do what usa says, most of those countries mentioned rely on america in some form or other.

---------- Post added at 16:52 ---------- Previous post was at 16:48 ----------

I believe isreal bombing and destroying civilian high rise buildings is also terrorism. Any attacking force can say enemy forces were hiding in building.

---------- Post added at 16:52 ---------- Previous post was at 16:52 ----------

Yes has been for a long time.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Only because they're scared to call them what they are.

What do you call someone that murders a daughter in front of her parents, Sister and Brother?

A freedom fighter?

What do you call someone that kidnaps a young German tourist from a music festival then gang rapes and murders her then parades her half naked body around in a pick up, whilst inviting others to spit on it?

The poor oppressed?

What do you call someone that machine guns three old ladies waiting for a bus.

Brave?

No, I think terrorist sums them up perfectly. They're not soldiers, Militants or guerillas. They're Criminals.

---------- Post added at 17:08 ---------- Previous post was at 16:58 ----------

Did they do any of the following?

If you want to compare Hamas to the Maquis, I would happily do so if they just attacked the IDF, or other strategic targets.

I don't know about you but I'm not for the raping of young women, and cold blooded murder of OAPs and Children.

If you are, then good for you.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

A customary glance at anyone’s favourite search engine will find the IDF have raped Palestinian women and girls in the past. Does that make everyone who supports their actions, their war crimes, “pro-rape”?

Or is it just important if the victim meets a certain profile.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Both are bad…

If one doesn’t condemn Hamas raping and killing civilians, does that make one "pro-rape"?

Or is it just important that the perpetrators meet a certain profile?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Chris’ thread title accurately reflects the designation given Hamas by the British government, also the EU, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Japan. So away with you and whistle. And even if you wish to try to draw a distinction between Hamas as a political movement and this weekend’s actions, I am simply not going to debate with you or anyone else whether the scenes we witnessed yesterday in southern Israel are terrorism or not. These were the actions of terrorists, perpetrating terrorism. If you wish to equivocate on this, shame on you.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

This is about to get bigger. 100,000 troops being assembled by IDF to wipe out Hamas, 300,000 reservists being called up to bolster the IDF to repel further incursions.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...9&d=1696869074

IMHO (and many others) this is all sponsored by Russia via their proxy Iran and to distract from Ukraine. The failure of the West to give more timely resorces needed for Ukraine to win rather than defend has caused this.

Russia welcomes weakness, get ready for another war in the Balkens with Serbia and Kosovar. The more they can distract the West and face no repercussions the more they will do so. Just like Hitler in the 1930.s

We have learnt nothing from history.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

In some contexts, I would say yes. Things get more complicated when trying to apply simple labels to state-level entities.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

There's many stories of allegations

The below was Convicted and rightly jailed, for his crimes.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ending...stinian-woman/

I've read the story, there was nothing I could see about him then murdering her and parading her corpse around the streets, they must of left that bit out.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

So it'd have been alright if they left her alive then?

Pro-rape but anti-murder, at least we know where the line is I guess.

---------- Post added at 18:07 ---------- Previous post was at 18:05 ----------

Both are bad, as you say.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Definitely , having been to the area a few times , Israel definitely terrorises the ordinary poeple of Gaza . That said it is not except able action but the world really has no interest in upsetting israel . As it was put to me ,and make of this what you will . What would happen if the UN desided that a group of people need a homeland and moved them in to Yorkshire driving out the people there

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

My good friend Seph has comprehensively gave his thoughts on that last point.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Pro-rape? Wow, that’s a peach even for you.

I suppose a terrorist sympathiser will say anything as they know the ground they’re on is so weak.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Au contraire, Pierre.

You introduced the idea.

Something something terrorist sympathiser something weak ground.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I stand by it. Anybody trying to justify Hamas’s actions must be OK with it?

I’’m not trying to justify anything that the IDF has done in the past but trying equate the despicable isolated actions of bad IDF soldiers, passing them off as systemic to the IDF, to the “planned” and obviously “systemic” atrocities of Hamas is disingenuous and just plain wrong.

I’m not pro-Israel, I’m anti-terrorist.

This rhetoric coming out that Israel had it coming, is bull shit, and anyone that says otherwise is an idiot and a terrorist sympathiser.

This is not how you win peace, but Hamas doesn’t want peace. Israel would negotiate, but it can’t negotiate as Hamas’s terms are the destruction of Israel.

The ball really is in the Palestinians court. Renounce Hamas. Accept Israel’s right to exist, and they may be able to negotiate a future.

Three Islamic nations, two wealthy ones, have already acknowledged Israel. Morocco, Bahrain and the UAE.

This really could be Hamas’s last roll of the dice.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

"May be able to negotiate a future"

Doesn't sound very concrete.

It might be Hamas's last roll of the dice but every civilian massacred by Israel in the coming days will be someone's mother, father, brother, sister, etc. There will always be someone willing to carry out a reprisal and always someone else willing to finance it. Try telling them the average Israeli isn't fair.game.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I agree with a lot of what you say but in terms of you point:

In this case, you would clearly condemn the state terrorism that Israel is inflecting on the civilians in Gaza, correct?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

It isn’t, but carry on this way, there is no future. Not a good one, anyway.


And that’s different to victims of Hamas in what way?

And that’s different to Israel’s reprisals now, how?

The IDF is well financed

Try telling the average Israeli, they wouldn’t be better off with all Palestinians either removed from Gaza. Or have Gaza under full Israeli control.

It works both ways but the big difference is Israel can and, if necessary, will subjugate Gaza to prevent a reoccurrence of this incident.

Try as it might, Hamas cannot subjugate Israel.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I don't doubt that there are Israelis for whom nothing short of the genocide of the Palestinian people is an objective. Being a nation state simply legitimises it at the ballot box.

It's not really a question of who has the most money or most resource Hamas aren't really operating at a level they can reasonably expect to eliminate Israel. Neither will their successors. This exercise has demonstrated the innovative and intuitive ways that they can strike Israel where it hurts at a scale nobody expected. The main achievement is psychological. How safe are new settlements going to be?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

If you can point me towards the incidents of state planned and executed acts of terrorism, where they have purely intentionally and purposefully targeted civilians for the sole intention to senselessly kill women and children for no other reason than to make a political point.

Then yes, I would absolutely condemn it.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

What about bombing a refugee camp and killing scores of civilians as "collateral damage". A price worth paying?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

That genocide of the Israelis is the Palestinian objective

The Palestinians appointed Hamas at the ballot box.

That was my point.

They can’t eliminate Israel, when you’re in an un-winnable situation, the sensible thing to do is negotiate a way out, that way you may come out with something.


It’s the equivalent of giving Israel an insect bite, not nice and it will irritate for sometime, and Israel will scratch that bite for a long time. They will also be minded to ensure in future they have plenty of insect repellent.


Oh, a hell of a lot safer now, thanks to Hamas…………how safe will Gaza be?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I think we are on the cusp of a world war, especially since Russia has pulled out of the nuclear treaty and a build up of activity with NK

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

No no, you’ll have to provide something before this incident. That camp would not have been targeted before Saturday. There may be Hamas operatives in that camp, making it a legitimate target.

I’m pretty sure all the people at the music rave were not legitimate targets, the 3 old women at the bus stop were not IDF or hiding IDF soldiers.

The girl executed in front of her parents and siblings was not an IDF commander.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

How many will take the risk of.living there having seen the brutal rapes and slaughter of their fellow Israelis? The best intelligence services in the world asleep at the wheel and the Iron Dome being caught out by a couple of paragliders with assault rifles doesn't bode well for long term safety at the border zone.

Israelis have a choice where they can live, those in Gaza don't.

---------- Post added at 21:44 ---------- Previous post was at 21:40 ----------

So Israel can commit war crimes but Palestinians have to observe international law. Gotcha.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

No idea, but if you think Israeli security and IDF strength will be lessened by this incident. I know you’re not that daft.

Every future Israel election will be fought off the back of this for decades.


But it does. The amount of money and resources that will be thrown at this. Hamas have guaranteed maximum attention and resources for the IDF and MOSAD for a generation or two.

All Israelis live there despite knowing that all of their neighbours want them dead. They’re not going to flee. Have you not looked at any of their history? They’ll fight for their state.

This will only harden their resolve.

Perhaps, Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Lebanon or Syria will allow Palestinians to relocate to their countries? Been a bit quiet on that front.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Are they committing war crimes? Are you the current sole arbiter at The Hague?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

No you didn’t. You started in 1948. Regional history did not begin there.

If you’re genuinely interested in regional history, try again, this time discussing Ottoman land reform, early Zionism and the British Mandate.

Clue: if you don’t go back at least as far as 1858 you’re doing it wrong.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Whether the risk is high or low is irrelevant if the perceived risk of terror is high. I cant even take a full size toothpaste on a plane because some guy almost blew his shoes up twenty years ago. Would you live there with your wife or daughters?

And round and round we go.

You are kidding yourself on if you think it's not already so disproportionate as to be irrelevant. What terror groups have to offer is innovative, often suicidal, methods.

As will Israel's reprisals on innocent Palestinians to the Palestinian people.

We aren't queuing to take in anyone either.

---------- Post added at 22:10 ---------- Previous post was at 22:08 ----------

If you are wilfully ignoring what you can clearly see with your own eyes, or worse you think nits a reasonable response, you can't really complain about the next terrorist attack on Israel or the one after that.

We are going round and round a bit so i will bid you good night at this point I'm sure the thread will still run and run.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

It’s a good point, only the subjugation of Gaza in the short to medium term would help, and that is probably will happen.

indeed, one side has previously offered concessions and a willingness to negotiate, the other hasn’t, only death to Israel, let’s keep spinning.

major questions will be asked, this will make it more disproportionate. They always break through. The CIA didn’t stop 9/11, MI5 didn’t stop 7/7 or Manchester.

Israel has faced suicide bombers before, many times, this will come as no surprise to them.

No doubt.wonderful isn’t it? Imagine if one side would negotiate in good faith how different things might be?

are we advocating the elimination of the Israeli state? Or are we asking for peace?

I don’t have access to any intelligence, it may be a legitimate target, there may be Hamas sheltering there. I don’t know. Do you have access to those intelligence reports?


You seem to have unrivalled access to intelligence for the area. Impressive.

Good night. I think people need to reconsider the terms terrorist and terrorism. I’m not sure everyone understands it.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Funny how "whataboutary" is suddenly valid for some forum members when defending Hamas terrorists.
Anyone defending them should be totally ashamed of themselves.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

You won't find a single post where I've defended them.

It's not 'whataboutery' - that relates to completely unlinked events. Politicians telling unrelated lies, different corruption, the Lawrence Fox and Chris Packham discussion the other day.

The actions of Israel and Palestinian terror groups are absolutely intertwined. Always have been and always will be.

For the avoidance of doubt:

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...0&postcount=72

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I didnt mention any names, but clearly a guilty conscience kicking in.

Still, for the "avoidance of doubt", in which post have you condemed them ?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I've linked above.

It's not a guilty conscience it was an obvious reference to me. Unless I've guessed incorrectly in which case you can correct me. It's worth noting once again nobody will find a single post where I've defended Hamas.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

How can anyone not see this? It is the fuel that drives this whole sorry story. By not condemning both sides, it allows one side to claim the moral high ground.

The people who claim that children killed by Israeli bombs are not victims of terrorism in the same way that the Israeli's killed by the Hamas terrorists are the real problem here.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages