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-   -   Deportation of illegal migrants (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33711109)

Sephiroth 13-06-2022 17:35
Deportation of illegal migrants
 

The Court of Appeal has upheld the High Court's decision not to stop the Government's intended deportation of various illegal migrants.

https://www.gbnews.uk/news/court-of-...-flight/316494

Quote:
Court of Appeal judges have rejected a last-ditch legal bid to block a flight due to relocate asylum seekers to Rwanda on Tuesday.

Mr K 13-06-2022 18:00
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125147)

The Court of Appeal has upheld the High Court's decision not to stop the Government's intended deportation of various illegal migrants.

https://www.gbnews.uk/news/court-of-...-flight/316494
Asylum seekers not illegal migrants. Seems that hardly any will actually go anyway due to various appeals. Going to be a very expensive plane. Still, all red meat headlines for those that like that sort of thing.

mrmistoffelees 13-06-2022 18:05
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
11 people on the first flight apparently out of 140 issued with the notice of deportation... expected to go down even further. seems like a great use of money ?

Mr K 13-06-2022 18:24
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36125151)
11 people on the first flight apparently out of 140 issued with the notice of deportation... expected to go down even further. seems like a great use of money ?
It's down to 8 now including a victim of torture. Aren't we a lovely country? Prince Charley was right.

Sephiroth 13-06-2022 18:29
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36125149)
Asylum seekers not illegal migrants. Seems that hardly any will actually go anyway due to various appeals. Going to be a very expensive plane. Still, all red meat headlines for those that like that sort of thing.
Of course they are illegal migrants when they chuck their phones overboard and destroy their documents. They are economic migrants who are gaming the system.

Mr K 13-06-2022 19:03
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125157)
Of course they are illegal migrants when they chuck their phones overboard and destroy their documents. They are economic migrants who are gaming the system.
You don't know that's true of all Asylum seekers. Doubtless there are some 'economic migrants' tbh honest we need them as not enough of our own population are prepared to do the crap jobs for the min. wage.

There are genuine victims of torture and war zones. This country has a proud history of being a refuge. A civilised nice place. Not any longer, what's changed? The Union Jack gets paler and less respected by the day.

Sephiroth 13-06-2022 19:12
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36125160)
You don't know that's true of all Asylum seekers. Doubtless there are some 'economic migrants' tbh honest we need them as not enough of our own population are prepared to do the crap jobs for the min. wage.

There are genuine victims of torture and war zones. This country has a proud history of being a refuge. A civilised nice place. Not any longer, what's changed? The Union Jack gets paler and less respected by the day.
I put it to you that such victims will have their documents with them unless they have been previously stolen.

Besides which, what's wrong with these people seeking asylum in your darling EU?

Mr K 13-06-2022 19:29
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125161)
I put it to you that such victims will have their documents with them unless they have been previously stolen.

Besides which, what's wrong with these people seeking asylum in your darling EU?
Nothing, over half a million asylum seekers in th EU last year over 10 times our numbers. Germany alone took over 4 times what we have. It's a horrible World out there, we don't have to be horrible too.

nomadking 13-06-2022 19:32
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36125160)
You don't know that's true of all Asylum seekers. Doubtless there are some 'economic migrants' tbh honest we need them as not enough of our own population are prepared to do the crap jobs for the min. wage.

There are genuine victims of torture and war zones. This country has a proud history of being a refuge. A civilised nice place. Not any longer, what's changed? The Union Jack gets paler and less respected by the day.
Very few, if any, keep their documents etc. Otherwise we would know exactly where to send them back to. They keep them until the last stage of their journey into the UK. EG If they fly in, they have them getting onto the plane, but are missing once they reach the UK.

How are France and all the many other countries they've passed through war zones?
Even when they are settled in safe countries, complete with a home, job etc, they still insist on invading the West.
They have travelled long distances, often hundreds of miles, through the country they are meant to be fleeing, and they do that completely safely.

Then you have the classic of safely travelling all the way through another country which others are claiming asylum from that "unsafe" country. Eg people travel through "unsafe" Libya, but people from Libya flee saying it's unsafe. People travel through the likes of Guatemala and Mexico, yet people from those countries claim those countries are unsafe.:confused:
Border Control bend over backwards in order to let them in. EG Somebody gets off a plane, and suddenly doesn't have any papers, but is informed that if they claim to be a child, they have to be let in. Guess what happened? They were let in, put into care, of course skipped from there.:mad: Eg "So you've come from Brazil to join your brother who's already here illegally. OK then, you're in".:mad:

Sephiroth 13-06-2022 19:34
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36125164)
Nothing, over half a million asylum seekers in the EU last year over 10 times our numbers. Germany alone took over 4 times what we have. It's a horrible World out there.
That doesn't negate the argument against taking in these migrants. Perfectly fit men, is whom I mean, whose bona fides are unknown and thus their security risk to our trusting people.

Mr K 13-06-2022 20:24
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125166)
That doesn't negate the argument against taking in these migrants. Perfectly fit men, is whom I mean, whose bona fides are unknown and thus their security risk to our trusting people.
Either you've been on the pop, or are suffering a bout of xenophobia. Don't worry I'm sure John Redwood will build you a wall round Wokingham, you can wave your little England flag. As long as Waitrose is included (staffed by those pesky immigrants), I'm sure you'll be fine....

mrmistoffelees 13-06-2022 21:02
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125161)
I put it to you that such victims will have their documents with them unless they have been previously stolen.

Besides which, what's wrong with these people seeking asylum in your darling EU?
Because there’s no requirement for them to seek asylum in the first safe country

https://fullfact.org/immigration/ref...-safe-country/

Sephiroth 13-06-2022 21:13
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36125171)
Because there’s no requirement for them to seek asylum in the first safe country

https://fullfact.org/immigration/ref...-safe-country/
That's the pity of it. It is an economic migrant's charter.

nomadking 13-06-2022 21:43
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quite simply, you can't claim you're truly fleeing danger, if you go from a safe place to an unsafe one. Eg safe in France, unsafe crossing the channel.
You can't claim a country is unsafe, when you leave half of your family behind to face the "danger".

1andrew1 14-06-2022 08:50
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125161)

Besides which, what's wrong with these people seeking asylum in your darling EU?
What's wrong with returning these people back to the EU country they were last in? Brexit.

ianch99 14-06-2022 11:53
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125147)

The Court of Appeal has upheld the High Court's decision not to stop the Government's intended deportation of various illegal migrants.

https://www.gbnews.uk/news/court-of-...-flight/316494
Really disappointed that you support this racist, immoral and expensive vanity project. I thought you were better than this.

BTW, your right wing trope that people crossing the channel in boat (because there is no legal route) are all economic migrants is false:

https://fullfact.org/immigration/sco...omic-migrants/

Quote:
WHAT WAS CLAIMED
The vast majority of people coming across the Channel are economic migrants, they are not asylum seekers.

OUR VERDICT
There is no evidence for this. Research carried out by the Refugee Council shows the majority of nationals from the countries most represented in small boat arrivals are granted asylum. The Home Office doesn’t publish statistics covering asylum claims following small boat arrivals specifically.

Sephiroth 14-06-2022 13:15
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36125220)
Exactly! This site was set up as a just that..not a site to moan about politics.The clue is in the title of the forum.CABLE Forum.:rolleyes:
... and the other clue is in the section titled: CURRENT AFFIARS".

Mick 14-06-2022 13:22
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
There seems some intent on causing trouble by the usual shit stirrers. Enough. Or you get topic banned. Simple.

Discussing what the point of this forum is after 19 years in existence, is utterly ridiculous.


Sephiroth 14-06-2022 13:27
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36125218)
Really disappointed that you support this racist, immoral and expensive vanity project. I thought you were better than this.

BTW, your right wing trope that people crossing the channel in boat (because there is no legal route) are all economic migrants is false:

https://fullfact.org/immigration/sco...omic-migrants/
There's not a scintilla of racism in me - let's make that clear.
All those actually granted asylum are most welcome.

I object to fit young men, leaving their country, passing through many safe countries, intending to draw on our benefits system for their own benefit.

I also object to the people trafficking that allows them to leave France, something French law enforcement does little (so it appears) extinguish .

I object to us not knowing which of those illegal migrants are terrorist in nature.

I object to illegal immigrants who purposefully destroy their means of identification; their bona fides must be questionable.

My remarks are directed at the illegal migrants; the ones granted asylum are not my target.

Btw, where do they get their money from to pay the traffickers? I'll lower myself even more in your estimation - I smell the whiff of Saudi Arabia or Iran (take your choice).

Pierre 14-06-2022 13:37
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36125149)
Asylum seekers not illegal migrants. Seems that hardly any will actually go anyway due to various appeals. Going to be a very expensive plane. Still, all red meat headlines for those that like that sort of thing.
economic migrants.

Mick 14-06-2022 13:58
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36125218)
Really disappointed that you support this racist, immoral and expensive vanity project. I thought you were better than this.

BTW, your right wing trope that people crossing the channel in boat (because there is no legal route) are all economic migrants is false:

https://fullfact.org/immigration/sco...omic-migrants/
I don’t agree with the Rwanda plan, on the simple terms that it is not cost effective, however, I can’t let this ridiculous assertion from you slip.

It’s not racist to protect our borders. It’s not racist to challenge people coming here illegally, yes, illegally.

And it’s certainly not racist to discourage hundreds of thousands to cross a dangerous shipping lane to get here, we also need to get the people smugglers out of business.

On the the grounds of compassion, by all means-Process their application, if they are not genuine asylum seekers, they need to be booted out, not end spending years in this country at tax payers expense, trying to travel through every loophole they can find, we have enough freeloaders in this country as it is.

1andrew1 14-06-2022 14:07
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36125236)
economic migrants.
Those pesky facts disagree strongly with you.
https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...8&postcount=16

papa smurf 14-06-2022 14:20
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36125239)
Those pesky facts disagree strongly with you.
https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...8&postcount=16
What is so dangerous about France that they need to escape to the UK?

1andrew1 14-06-2022 14:25
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36125242)
What is so dangerous about France that they need to escape to the UK?
Macron. :D

Julian 14-06-2022 14:36
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36125239)
Those pesky facts disagree strongly with you.
https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...8&postcount=16
TBF the link in that post states categorically:

Quote:
The Home Office doesn’t publish statistics covering asylum claims following small boat arrivals specifically
So it is relatively meaningless. ;)

Pierre 14-06-2022 14:51
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian (Post 36125244)
So it is relatively meaningless. ;)
correct.


Quote:
OUR VERDICT
There is no evidence for this. Research carried out by the Refugee Council shows the majority of nationals from the countries most represented in small boat arrivals are granted asylum. The Home Office doesn’t publish statistics covering asylum claims following small boat arrivals specifically.
For an organisation called "fullfact" the above is an opinion in the absence of information.

papa smurf 14-06-2022 14:59
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36125245)
correct.




For an organisation called "fullfact" the above is an opinion in the absence of information.
Tbf if they called themselves the lefty leaning rubbish site even the leftist wing nuts wouldn't use it.

1andrew1 14-06-2022 15:48
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36125245)
correct.
For an organisation called "fullfact" the above is an opinion in the absence of information.
It's not based on an opinion it's based on a survey. This is the best-available evidence as the Home Office chooses not to publish its own data. FullFact could have worded it more clearly, though.

Quote:
Research carried out by the Refugee Council shows the majority of nationals from the countries most represented in small boat arrivals are granted asylum.


---------- Post added at 15:48 ---------- Previous post was at 15:00 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36125246)
Tbf if they called themselves the lefty leaning rubbish site even the leftist wing nuts wouldn't use it.
FullFact was co-founded by an Etonian, Conservative donor but never mind.

papa smurf 14-06-2022 16:00
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36125247)
It's not based on an opinion it's based on a survey. This is the best-available evidence as the Home Office chooses not to publish its own data. FullFact could have worded it more clearly, though.



---------- Post added at 15:48 ---------- Previous post was at 15:00 ----------


FullFact was co-founded by an Etonian, Conservative donor but never mind.
Should rename it bullfact or something close to that;)



The way things are going i have my doubts the pilot will be on the plane

nomadking 14-06-2022 16:21
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Where they are unnecessarily putting themselves in danger, when they are currently in a safe situation, clearly demonstrates "WANT" rather than "NEED". At that point they can no longer claim to be seeking safety.
About time common sense was applied.

1andrew1 14-06-2022 16:25
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36125252)
Should rename it bullfact or something close to that;)
I can't see they've done anything left or right wing here. They've just said that there's no Home Office data but there is a survey. It wasn't worded particularly very well so posters on here assumed that because there was no Home Office data, FullFact had made it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36125252)
The way things are going i have my doubts the pilot will be on the plane
:D

ianch99 14-06-2022 16:36
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36125238)
I don’t agree with the Rwanda plan, on the simple terms that it is not cost effective, however, I can’t let this ridiculous assertion from you slip.

It’s not racist to protect our borders. It’s not racist to challenge people coming here illegally, yes, illegally.

And it’s certainly not racist to discourage hundreds of thousands to cross a dangerous shipping lane to get here, we also need to get the people smugglers out of business.

On the the grounds of compassion, by all means-Process their application, if they are not genuine asylum seekers, they need to be booted out, not end spending years in this country at tax payers expense, trying to travel through every loophole they can find, we have enough freeloaders in this country as it is.
I agree, it’s not racist to protect our borders. However, the ones that come across the channel in small boats are mostly from the Middle East and do not have access to a legal channel through which to claim asylum in the UK hence the attempts made via boats. The Ukrainians refugees, in contrast, have been given a legal route to the UK.

To sum up, even if a Ukrainian, for some reason, decided to travel to the UK via boat without a Visa/Permission To Travel Letter there is no way they would be on that plane.

Sephiroth 14-06-2022 16:41
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36125253)
Where they are unnecessarily putting themselves in danger, when they are currently in a safe situation, clearly demonstrates "WANT" rather than "NEED". At that point they can no longer claim to be seeking safety.
About time common sense was applied.
Ianch99 and MrK urgently need to disagree with with you!

ianch99 14-06-2022 16:43
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125234)
There's not a scintilla of racism in me - let's make that clear.
All those actually granted asylum are most welcome.

I object to fit young men, leaving their country, passing through many safe countries, intending to draw on our benefits system for their own benefit.

I also object to the people trafficking that allows them to leave France, something French law enforcement does little (so it appears) extinguish .

I object to us not knowing which of those illegal migrants are terrorist in nature.

I object to illegal immigrants who purposefully destroy their means of identification; their bona fides must be questionable.

My remarks are directed at the illegal migrants; the ones granted asylum are not my target.

Btw, where do they get their money from to pay the traffickers? I'll lower myself even more in your estimation - I smell the whiff of Saudi Arabia or Iran (take your choice).
I am not accusing you of being racist, only that you seem to support a policy that has all the hallmarks of such. As I mentioned to Mick, you will not see any Ukrainians on these flights even if, for some reason, they arrive here by small boat.

You are normally cogent in your arguments but this project, as Mick points out is much more expensive that processing these peoples in the UK so I am puzzled why you are in support?

Lastly, can you provide the evidence that underwrites your deductions that these people are a) illegal b) economical migrants and c) terrorists and d) sponsored by militant Islam?

Sephiroth 14-06-2022 16:44
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36125256)
I agree, it’s not racist to protect our borders. However, the ones that come across the channel in small boats are mostly from the Middle East and do not have access to a legal channel through which to claim asylum in the UK hence the attempts made via boats. The Ukrainians refugees, in contrast, have been given a legal route to the UK.

To sum up, even if a Ukrainian, for some reason, decided to travel to the UK via boat without a Visa/Permission To Travel Letter there is no way they would be on that plane.
Then they should claim asylum in one of the safe countries through which they have passed while they still have their documents (which they needed to pass through).

Why haven't you addressed the matter of thrown away documentation and the reasons that may be behind this?

ianch99 14-06-2022 16:47
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125258)
Ianch99 and MrK urgently need to disagree with with you!
Is this a £5 or £10 argument? :)

---------- Post added at 16:47 ---------- Previous post was at 16:44 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125260)
Then they should claim asylum in one of the safe countries through which they have passed while they still have their documents (which they needed to pass through)
Why should they if they only speak English and/or they have relatives or friends here? There is no legal obligation for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125260)
Why haven't you addressed the matter of thrown away documentation and the reasons that may be behind this?
Again, where your evidence for this?

Sephiroth 14-06-2022 17:23
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36125262)
Is this a £5 or £10 argument? :)

---------- Post added at 16:47 ---------- Previous post was at 16:44 ----------



Why should they if they only speak English and/or they have relatives or friends here? There is no legal obligation for this.



Again, where your evidence for this?

For a start Nigel Farage's video showing them dumping their mobile phones into the sea.

https://www.gbnews.uk/news/nigel-far...rcepted/285414

Are you seriously asserting that the bulk of male migrants without documentation haven't thrown them away?

Jaymoss 14-06-2022 17:27
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
It is obvious to any reasonable person they dump their documents so they can not be sent home. No docs = no idea where they are from so where would you send them. Now they have an answer send them to Africa. I wonder how many of the bleeding hearts would be willing to put a few up and feed them and so on. Can be sure it is not many

papa smurf 14-06-2022 17:28
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125274)

For a start Nigel Farage's video showing them dumping their mobile phones into the sea.

https://www.gbnews.uk/news/nigel-far...rcepted/285414

Are you seriously asserting that the bulk of male migrants without documentation haven't thrown them away?
That makes them spies in my book.

ianch99 14-06-2022 18:01
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36125277)
It is obvious to any reasonable person they dump their documents so they can not be sent home. No docs = no idea where they are from so where would you send them. Now they have an answer send them to Africa. I wonder how many of the bleeding hearts would be willing to put a few up and feed them and so on. Can be sure it is not many
"bleeding hearts"? God, you are special.

---------- Post added at 18:01 ---------- Previous post was at 17:54 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125274)

For a start Nigel Farage's video showing them dumping their mobile phones into the sea.

https://www.gbnews.uk/news/nigel-far...rcepted/285414

Are you seriously asserting that the bulk of male migrants without documentation haven't thrown them away?
Farage, the author of the racist "Breaking Point" Brexit poster, is your evidence? Again, where is your proof that significant numbers of asylum seekers throw away their documentation?

Mick 14-06-2022 18:07
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36125259)
I am not accusing you of being racist, only that you seem to support a policy that has all the hallmarks of such. As I mentioned to Mick, you will not see any Ukrainians on these flights even if, for some reason, they arrive here by small boat.

You are normally cogent in your arguments but this project, as Mick points out is much more expensive that processing these peoples in the UK so I am puzzled why you are in support?

Lastly, can you provide the evidence that underwrites your deductions that these people are a) illegal b) economical migrants and c) terrorists and d) sponsored by militant Islam?
Again, it’s not a racist policy, to send asylum seekers to Rwanda, the legal challenges to stop tonight’s flight have failed, just today, the UK Supreme Court approved the flight can go ahead, if there was any hint of racism attached to the plan, it would be deemed absolutely illegal.

1andrew1 14-06-2022 18:19
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36125286)
Farage, the author of the racist "Breaking Point" Brexit poster, is your evidence? Again, where is your proof that significant numbers of asylum seekers throw away their documentation?
That statement could be correct but as it stands has no statistical basis. We've seen one person on a boat of 40 throw their phone over board.

mrmistoffelees 14-06-2022 18:20
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36125238)
I don’t agree with the Rwanda plan, on the simple terms that it is not cost effective, however, I can’t let this ridiculous assertion from you slip.

It’s not racist to protect our borders. It’s not racist to challenge people coming here illegally, yes, illegally.

And it’s certainly not racist to discourage hundreds of thousands to cross a dangerous shipping lane to get here, we also need to get the people smugglers out of business.

On the the grounds of compassion, by all means-Process their application, if they are not genuine asylum seekers, they need to be booted out, not end spending years in this country at tax payers expense, trying to travel through every loophole they can find, we have enough freeloaders in this country as it is.
Pritti might have changed this recently, but if not, it's never been illegal to try and enter the UK, source https://ecre.org/uk-january-channel-...fully%E2%80%9D


I'd also agree, it's not a racism issue, it's a humanitarian issue

Mick 14-06-2022 18:36
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36125295)
That statement could be correct but as it stands has no statistical basis. We've seen one person on a boat of 40 throw their phone over board.
It stands to reason that those who throw their documents away and they do, do it, are not genuine asylum seekers. They’re playing the system, causing a ruckus with genuine asylum claims.

Pierre 14-06-2022 18:40
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36125289)
Again, it’s not a racist policy, to send asylum seekers to Rwanda.
There is a racist element to this whole thing, but it’s not that.

If say the Government had declared they had done a deal with Canada, and they were going to send them to Canada. There would not be anything like the furore that there is now.

It’s because people think that Rwanda is beneath the “Asylum Seekers”, which is a bit Racist.

Sephiroth 14-06-2022 18:45
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36125286)
"bleeding hearts"? God, you are special.

---------- Post added at 18:01 ---------- Previous post was at 17:54 ----------



Farage, the author of the racist "Breaking Point" Brexit poster, is your evidence? Again, where is your proof that significant numbers of asylum seekers throw away their documentation?
I'll try not to lose my temper. It's video footage. Do you dispute it?

Itshim 14-06-2022 18:54
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
:clap:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36125297)
It stands to reason that those who throw their documents away and they do, do it, are not genuine asylum seekers. They’re playing the system, causing a ruckus with genuine asylum claims.


---------- Post added at 18:54 ---------- Previous post was at 18:53 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125299)
I'll try not to lose my temper. It's video footage. Do you dispute it?
If it doesn't fit there argument of cause they do

Mad Max 14-06-2022 20:31
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36125277)
It is obvious to any reasonable person they dump their documents so they can not be sent home. No docs = no idea where they are from so where would you send them. Now they have an answer send them to Africa. I wonder how many of the bleeding hearts would be willing to put a few up and feed them and so on. Can be sure it is not many
Bang on, they're here to work the system, economic migrants imo, just look at the boats, they are filled with young men, why don't they stay in France? It's a safe country.
I don't think our NHS/Schools etc etc can take any more, some must be at breaking point, especially in the south east.

Julian 14-06-2022 20:54
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Unlikely that the flight will leave with any passengers as a court in France has ruled that at least one of the deportations should not take place.

Moderate irony alert......

Mr K 14-06-2022 21:11
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian (Post 36125310)
Unlikely that the flight will leave with any passengers as a court in France has ruled that at least one of the deportations should not take place.

Moderate irony alert......
Quelle surprise ....

You'd swear there wasn't any real policy here and it's just been a deliberately created fuss, to get red top headlines , make courts enemies, get Europe involved, to divert attention from the chief muppet....

Chris 14-06-2022 21:20
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61806048

Quote:
The European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) says it has blocked the removal of one of seven passengers due to depart on Tuesday night.
I felt a great disturbance at the Daily Mail … as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced …

TheDaddy 14-06-2022 21:27
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36125218)
Really disappointed that you support this racist, immoral and expensive vanity project. I thought you were better than this.

BTW, your right wing trope that people crossing the channel in boat (because there is no legal route) are all economic migrants is false:

https://fullfact.org/immigration/sco...omic-migrants/
And I thought you were better than screaming and hiding behind "racism", wonder how many other people have done that without ever even meeting an asylum seeker. I've worked with a fair few and they'd laugh themselves horse at fullfact assertions, once they’re comfortable in company they matter of factly say they all lied to get here and I don't blame them particularly, if I was in their place I probably would to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125234)
There's not a scintilla of racism in me - let's make that clear.
All those actually granted asylum are most welcome.

I object to fit young men, leaving their country, passing through many safe countries, intending to draw on our benefits system for their own benefit.

I also object to the people trafficking that allows them to leave France, something French law enforcement does little (so it appears) extinguish .

I object to us not knowing which of those illegal migrants are terrorist in nature.

I object to illegal immigrants who purposefully destroy their means of identification; their bona fides must be questionable.

My remarks are directed at the illegal migrants; the ones granted asylum are not my target.

Btw, where do they get their money from to pay the traffickers? I'll lower myself even more in your estimation - I smell the whiff of Saudi Arabia or Iran (take your choice).
There's an argument that it has to be young, fit men making the crossing as they're best equiped to survive the journey across to France and then from France to here, I dont totally buy it but it's not beyond the realms of fantasy.

The destroying of documents is interesting and dishonest imo, they're either lying about where they're from or they've failed the application in Belgium or France

I think it more likely they get money from working illegally than as international terrorists

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36125247)
It's not based on an opinion it's based on a survey. This is the best-available evidence as the Home Office chooses not to publish its own data. FullFact could have worded it more clearly, though.



---------- Post added at 15:48 ---------- Previous post was at 15:00 ----------


FullFact was co-founded by an Etonian, Conservative donor but never mind.
Exactly never mind

1andrew1 14-06-2022 22:13
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Paul Brand ITV, Tonight
CONFIRMED - the flight will not be taking off after all asylum seekers were pulled off
https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/sta...16792160591878

nomadking 14-06-2022 22:18
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36125316)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61806048



I felt a great disturbance at the Daily Mail … as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced …
That Court itself has ruled several time that deportations are an administrative matter, and therefore nothing to do with the Court.:confused:

Chris 14-06-2022 22:27
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36125325)
That Court itself has ruled several time that deportations are an administrative matter, and therefore nothing to do with the Court.:confused:
I haven’t a clue about that. What I do know is that low rumbling noise coming from London is the sound of a hundred keyboards being thrashed to death by the Mail’s Op Ed desk.

mrmistoffelees 14-06-2022 22:47
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36125298)
There is a racist element to this whole thing, but it’s not that.

If say the Government had declared they had done a deal with Canada, and they were going to send them to Canada. There would not be anything like the furore that there is now.

It’s because people think that Rwanda is beneath the “Asylum Seekers”, which is a bit Racist.
Or, could it be that Rwanda does not historically have a particularly great human rights record ? Something Boris himself has commented on in the past.

Mick 14-06-2022 22:48
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
I’m reading many libs aren’t really celebrating this tonight, as they now know this now means the UK expedite leaving the jurisdictional foreign power grab of the ECHR.

Hugh 14-06-2022 23:05
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
The ECHR which we help found, And was actually proposed by Winston Churchill and set up mainly by British lawyers

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro...f_Human_Rights

Quote:
On 5 May 1949, the Council of Europe was created in London, the members of the Council consider that the UN Declaration seeks to ensure the universal and effective recognition and application of the rights set forth therein.
Quote:
The European Court of Human Rights, which enforces the European Convention on Human Rights, is the best known body of the Council of Europe. The Council of Europe (CoE) (French: Conseil de l'Europe, CdE) is an international organisation founded in the wake of World War II to uphold human rights, democracy and the rule of law in Europe.[11] Founded in 1949, it has 47 member states, with a population of approximately 820 million, and operates with an annual budget of approximately 500 million euros.[12]

The organisation is distinct from the 27-nation European Union (EU), although it is sometimes confused with it, partly because the EU has adopted the original flag of Europe created by the Council of Europe in 1955,[13] as well as the anthem of Europe.[14] No country has ever joined the EU without first belonging to the Council of Europe.[15] The Council of Europe is an official United Nations observer.[16]

Mick 14-06-2022 23:20
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
All it will take is a repeal of the parts of the Human Rights Act, which forces UK to commit to ECHR decisions.

ianch99 14-06-2022 23:44
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36125318)
And I thought you were better than screaming and hiding behind "racism", wonder how many other people have done that without ever even meeting an asylum seeker. I've worked with a fair few and they'd laugh themselves horse at fullfact assertions, once they’re comfortable in company they matter of factly say they all lied to get here and I don't blame them particularly, if I was in their place I probably would to.



There's an argument that it has to be young, fit men making the crossing as they're best equiped to survive the journey across to France and then from France to here, I dont totally buy it but it's not beyond the realms of fantasy.

The destroying of documents is interesting and dishonest imo, they're either lying about where they're from or they've failed the application in Belgium or France

I think it more likely they get money from working illegally than as international terrorists



Exactly never mind
I'm not screaming, don't exaggerate. My point stands: you will not see Ukrainians on these flights, they are processing the people from the Middle East.

As for destroying of documents, again, I ask where is the evidence? Phones are not passports ..

---------- Post added at 23:44 ---------- Previous post was at 23:41 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125299)
I'll try not to lose my temper. It's video footage. Do you dispute it?
You can lose your temper if you wish, it doesn't change the facts. I ask again where is the evidence the majority of asylum seekers are destroying their documents? Phones are not legal identity documents, I am surprised to have to point this out.

GrimUpNorth 14-06-2022 23:47
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
If nothing else HM Gov has succeeded in getting us to discuss something other than our lying slime ball PM, so there will those in Downing Street marking today as a success. The rest of us however will see this as another public example of how crap we can be and the whole world will be cringing with embarrassment (whatever side of the debate you're on).

ianch99 14-06-2022 23:56
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
The funniest part of all of this is that Rwanda will send their refugees to the UK as part of the reciprocal arrangements. I can also hear the Daily Mail keyboards :)

nomadking 14-06-2022 23:56
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Link

Quote:
On that subject, the Court noted that, in general, exclusion orders were not characterised as criminal within the member States of the Council of Europe. Such orders, which in most States could also be made by the administrative authorities, constituted a special preventive measure for the purposes of immigration control and did not concern the determination of a criminal charge for the purposes of Article 6 § 1. The fact that they were imposed in the context of criminal proceedings could not alter their essentially preventive nature. It followed that proceedings for rescission of such measures could not be regarded as being in the criminal sphere either. The Court therefore concluded that decisions regarding the entry, stay and deportation of aliens did not concern the determination of civil rights or obligations or of a criminal charge, within the meaning of Article 6 § 1.
Conclusion: Article 6 inapplicable (fifteen votes to two).

1andrew1 15-06-2022 01:02
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth (Post 36125338)
If nothing else HM Gov has succeeded in getting us to discuss something other than our lying slime ball PM, so there will those in Downing Street marking today as a success. The rest of us however will see this as another public example of how crap we can be and the whole world will be cringing with embarrassment (whatever side of the debate you're on).
The UK was starting to look like a sensible country again with its robust support for Ukraine. Then the government seeks to amend an international deal unilaterally and then its first deportation to Rwanda is deemed unlawful by the courts.

What a farce! Carry on Johnson, as no one says.

TheDaddy 15-06-2022 01:14
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36125335)
I'm not screaming, don't exaggerate. My point stands: you will not see Ukrainians on these flights, they are processing the people from the Middle East.

As for destroying of documents, again, I ask where is the evidence? Phones are not passports ..

---------- Post added at 23:44 ---------- Previous post was at 23:41 ----------



You can lose your temper if you wish, it doesn't change the facts. I ask again where is the evidence the majority of asylum seekers are destroying their documents? Phones are not legal identity documents, I am surprised to have to point this out.
Migration watch claimed it was 98% not so long ago, is it true, I dont know but how do you deport a failed applicant if you font know where they're from

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36125340)
The funniest part of all of this is that Rwanda will send their refugees to the UK as part of the reciprocal arrangements. I can also hear the Daily Mail keyboards :)
That's funny? We are sending people to a place where anyone who disagrees with the regime potentially has to move here to be safe and you find that amusing

Sephiroth 15-06-2022 07:35
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36125335)
I'm not screaming, don't exaggerate. My point stands: you will not see Ukrainians on these flights, they are processing the people from the Middle East.

As for destroying of documents, again, I ask where is the evidence? Phones are not passports ..

---------- Post added at 23:44 ---------- Previous post was at 23:41 ----------



You can lose your temper if you wish, it doesn't change the facts. I ask again where is the evidence the majority of asylum seekers are destroying their documents? Phones are not legal identity documents, I am surprised to have to point this out.
I think you're being deliberately obtuse. Where are their identity documents then?

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/new...tity-documents

Quote:
Deliberate destruction of documentation by tens of thousands crossing the Channel in boats without prior permission must be treated as prima facie evidence of asylum abuse where such persons seek protection (as 98% do). Such actions are already a criminal offence.

Yet we increasingly take tens of thousands of people in who we cannot identify – immediately injecting them into the heart of British society.

This is naive, negligent madness.

As the Crown Prosecution Service has said: “The destruction of documents disables the authorities from establishing where an entrant came from, in order to increase the chances of success of a claim or application and/or to thwart removal… These offences have the real potential to undermine the whole system of immigration control.”

1andrew1 15-06-2022 08:46
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125348)
I think you're being deliberately obtuse. Where are their identity documents then?

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/new...tity-documents
I don't think that anyone disputes that destroying identity documents sounds dodgy. We all get that. But the above is not evidence that it is happening. And as Ian pointed out, a mobile phone is not an identity document.

From the Farage video, it seems that one person on the boat gets their trip across the channel free if they recruit enough people to join them. It makes sense that this person would have the contact details of the people smugglers and would not want to share these details with the authorities for fear of reprisals from the people smugglers hence throwing their phone overboard.

Sephiroth 15-06-2022 08:57
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36125344)
The UK was starting to look like a sensible country again with its robust support for Ukraine. Then the government seeks to amend an international deal unilaterally and then its first deportation to Rwanda is deemed unlawful by the courts.

What a farce! Carry on Johnson, as no one says.
Carrie on Johnson, you surely meant!

mrmistoffelees 15-06-2022 09:00
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36125350)
I don't think that anyone disputes that destroying identity documents sounds dodgy. We all get that. But the above is not evidence that it is happening. And as Ian pointed out, a mobile phone is not an identity document.

From the Farage video, it seems that one person on the boat gets their trip across the channel free if they recruit enough people to join them. It makes sense that this person would have the contact details of the people smugglers and would not want to share these details with the authorities for fear of reprisals from the people smugglers hence throwing their phone overboard.
Not only that, it's actually a criminal offence

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/new...tity-documents

Sephiroth 15-06-2022 09:02
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36125350)
I don't think that anyone disputes that destroying identity documents sounds dodgy. We all get that. But the above is not evidence that it is happening. And as Ian pointed out, a mobile phone is not an identity document.

From the Farage video, it seems that one person on the boat gets their trip across the channel free if they recruit enough people to join them. It makes sense that this person would have the contact details of the people smugglers and would not want to share these details with the authorities for fear of reprisals from the people smugglers hence throwing their phone overboard.
Andrew, Ian isn't being objective.

You're well capable of objectivity. Justifying the chucking away of mobile phones is bizarre. These people arrive in the UK without documentation they must have had in order to traverse Europe. This makes them cheats. Aren't we in the realms of, here?

Mr K 15-06-2022 09:08
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
A £300k bill for a plane that went nowhere.... I suspect they knew it would never go and just wanted to change the headlines. In which case the public's money well spent.

Maggy 15-06-2022 09:13
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36125356)
A £300k bill for a plane that went nowhere.... I suspect they knew it would never go and just wanted to change the headlines. In which case the public's money well spent.
:tu:
I doubt it will work.It's too juicy a story for the media to abandon completely and it will soon be back in the headlines about Boris being completely useless as PM.

1andrew1 15-06-2022 09:15
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125355)
Andrew, Ian isn't being objective.

You're well capable of objectivity. Justifying the chucking away of mobile phones is bizarre. These people arrive in the UK without documentation they must have had in order to traverse Europe. This makes them cheats. Aren't we in the realms of, here?
Would they have needed documents to travel across Europe? The Shengen area is quite big!
Quote:
What countries are in Schengen region?
Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland.
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sc...hengen-visa_en

GrimUpNorth 15-06-2022 09:23
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Yesterday was the busiest small boat day since mid April so the threat of flying people to Rwanda is a successful deterrent :dunce:

papa smurf 15-06-2022 09:40
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
time for plan B

Chris 15-06-2022 09:51
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth (Post 36125360)
Yesterday was the busiest small boat day since mid April so the threat of flying people to Rwanda is a successful deterrent :dunce:
Or, the successful stalling tactics are a reassurance to those using the small boats. :shrug:

Don’t get me wrong, we shouldn’t be doing this - but short-sighted observations that look great on Twitter don’t ultimately help anyone, and in any case the question is really a moral one, not a practical one. We shouldn’t be doing it even if it does work.

ianch99 15-06-2022 11:02
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36125345)
Migration watch claimed it was 98% not so long ago, is it true, I dont know but how do you deport a failed applicant if you font know where they're from



That's funny? We are sending people to a place where anyone who disagrees with the regime potentially has to move here to be safe and you find that amusing
MigrationWatch UK has an anti-immigration agenda so can hardly be claimed to be an authoritative source.

You obviously have not come across dark humour. I find it ironic that we send asylum seekers to Rwanda and we get a plane load back in return. I find that hilarious :)

---------- Post added at 11:02 ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125353)
Carrie on Johnson, you surely meant!
I like it :)

1andrew1 15-06-2022 11:49
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125353)
Carrie on Johnson, you surely meant!
:D:D:D

Sephiroth 15-06-2022 12:16
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 

I'd just like to make clear where I stand on all this lest one or two of you regard me as an anti-immigrant hawk.

1/
I, like other reasonable people on this thread, object to Muslim males, without identity documents, seeking asylum in the UK when there's the whole of Europe for them to claim asylum. Rationale revolves round not knowing whom we would be receiving, nor their affiliations, nor their jihadist/terrorism leanings given past terrorism events, particularly from Muslim migrants to the UK..

2/
I, like other reasonable people on this thread, fully support genuine refugees from anywhere who seek to come to the UK on any valid legal premise - be that UK law, ECHR or UNHCR treaties. In that regard, I expect them to have a valid basis for fleeing their country, able to reasonably prove this and I'd be sympathetic to families or women with children.

3/
I, like other reasonable people on this thread, do not want to set a precedent for millions of Muslims coming to this country and totally destroying our culture by reason of their numbers and eventual possible domination of politics (an agenda I ascribe to either/both of Saudi Arabia/Iran). Diversity is not a democratic principle; it has the potential to destroy indigenous culture.

4/
Because we are signatories to the ECHR, we must abide by its rules. I believe that those rules should be updated to deal with the present trafficking crisis and the Guvmin needs to tell us what it is planning in that regard. My rationale is simply to look at 1930s Germany, when that country turned to institutional racism without there being any backstop (not that such a backstop would have worked); whilst I don't expect that to happen here, creeping exceptions to human rights can occur in any democracy and I don't want to see that here.

5/
I don't like the EU - specifically the power-grabbing Commission. But, when we were in, I did approve of Free Movement and was content with the Single Market/Customs Union. But UK sovereignty has trumped all that. We now need to get the UNHCR/EHCR articles updated. That'll take some time but in the meantime, we must find legal methods to stop the people trafficking.


Paul 15-06-2022 12:59
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125381)
I, like other reasonable people on this thread, object to Muslim males, without identity documents, seeking asylum in the UK when there's the whole of Europe for them to claim asylum.
I object to anyone seeking asylum in the UK if they are passing through Europe to do so.

If they are genuinely fleeing, they should be seeking it in the first country they reach, not crossing several of them (and a dangerous sea) just to get to the UK.

Hugh 15-06-2022 13:58
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36125365)
time for plan B
His music isn’t to everyone’s taste, but I’m not sure playing it will be that much of a deterrent…

mrmistoffelees 15-06-2022 14:09
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36125392)
His music isn’t to everyone’s taste, but I’m not sure playing it will be that much of a deterrent…
Dunno, repeated blasts of 'Stay Too Long' will probably be more successful than the current shambles.


I can't help wondering if we still had access to EuroDac if that could help with those repeatedly attempting crossings.

GrimUpNorth 15-06-2022 14:39
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
My comments & suggested edits in red

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125381)

I'd just like to make clear where I stand on all this lest one or two of you regard me as an anti-immigrant hawk.

1/
I, like other reasonable people on this thread, object to Muslim males, without identity documents, seeking asylum in the UK when there's the whole of Europe for them to claim asylum. Rationale revolves round not knowing whom we would be receiving, nor their affiliations, nor their jihadist/terrorism leanings given past terrorism events, particularly from Muslim migrants to the UK..

1. Maybe consider replacing reasonable people with paid up Conservatives?

2/
I, like other reasonable people on this thread, fully support genuine refugees from anywhere who seek to come to the UK on any valid legal premise - be that UK law, ECHR or UNHCR treaties. In that regard, I expect them to have a valid basis for fleeing their country, able to reasonably prove this and I'd be sympathetic to families or women with children.#

2. Maybe consider adding something along the lines of making the process for the people you [the Conservatives] approve of a bit easier, like visa applications for Ukrainians in Ukrainian instead of just English? Saying and doing are quite different, it's a shame we have a government that likes to say things but when it comes to the doing is all to often lacking.

3/
I, like other reasonable people on this thread, do not want to set a precedent for millions of Muslims coming to this country and totally destroying our culture by reason of their numbers and eventual possible domination of politics (an agenda I ascribe to either/both of Saudi Arabia/Iran). Diversity is not a democratic principle; it has the potential to destroy indigenous culture.

3. Just ingrained Conservative dogma, also see comment for para 1.

4/
Because we are signatories to the ECHR, we must abide by its rules. I believe that those rules should be updated to deal with the present trafficking crisis and the Guvmin needs to tell us what it is planning in that regard. My rationale is simply to look at 1930s Germany, when that country turned to institutional racism without there being any backstop (not that such a backstop would have worked); whilst I don't expect that to happen here, creeping exceptions to human rights can occur in any democracy and I don't want to see that here.

4. Consider deleting all text after the first sentence. It's time for the Conservatives to stop thinking they can just change rules that are a bit inconvenient or will upset the harder right of the party. As Mrs G says, it's time for Boris to grow a pair and represent the whole country and not just a few people hiding away in a WhatsApp group.

5/
I don't like the EU - specifically the power-grabbing Commission. But, when we were in, I did approve of Free Movement and was content with the Single Market/Customs Union. But UK sovereignty has trumped all that. We now need to get the UNHCR/EHCR articles updated. That'll take some time but in the meantime, we must find legal methods to stop the people trafficking.

5. Was this because most of the EU is white and not on the whole Muslim i.e. looks like most of us. I feel the impacts of the loss of cheap foreign labour is starting to bite and maybe just maybe, like other reasonable people on this thread leavers are starting to see the impact.

Sephiroth 15-06-2022 14:48
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth (Post 36125395)
My comments & suggested edits in red
You just don't like Conservatives.

Mad Max 15-06-2022 14:57
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125381)

I'd just like to make clear where I stand on all this lest one or two of you regard me as an anti-immigrant hawk.

1/
I, like other reasonable people on this thread, object to Muslim males, without identity documents, seeking asylum in the UK when there's the whole of Europe for them to claim asylum. Rationale revolves round not knowing whom we would be receiving, nor their affiliations, nor their jihadist/terrorism leanings given past terrorism events, particularly from Muslim migrants to the UK..

2/
I, like other reasonable people on this thread, fully support genuine refugees from anywhere who seek to come to the UK on any valid legal premise - be that UK law, ECHR or UNHCR treaties. In that regard, I expect them to have a valid basis for fleeing their country, able to reasonably prove this and I'd be sympathetic to families or women with children.

3/
I, like other reasonable people on this thread, do not want to set a precedent for millions of Muslims coming to this country and totally destroying our culture by reason of their numbers and eventual possible domination of politics (an agenda I ascribe to either/both of Saudi Arabia/Iran). Diversity is not a democratic principle; it has the potential to destroy indigenous culture.

4/
Because we are signatories to the ECHR, we must abide by its rules. I believe that those rules should be updated to deal with the present trafficking crisis and the Guvmin needs to tell us what it is planning in that regard. My rationale is simply to look at 1930s Germany, when that country turned to institutional racism without there being any backstop (not that such a backstop would have worked); whilst I don't expect that to happen here, creeping exceptions to human rights can occur in any democracy and I don't want to see that here.

5/
I don't like the EU - specifically the power-grabbing Commission. But, when we were in, I did approve of Free Movement and was content with the Single Market/Customs Union. But UK sovereignty has trumped all that. We now need to get the UNHCR/EHCR articles updated. That'll take some time but in the meantime, we must find legal methods to stop the people trafficking.


Brilliant post, well said.

TheDaddy 15-06-2022 15:16
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36125375)
MigrationWatch UK has an anti-immigration agenda so can hardly be claimed to be an authoritative source.
Even if they're exaggerating by half it's still an obscenely high number and I'd say they're a better source than fullfacts opinion piece

Quote:
You obviously have not come across dark humour. I find it ironic that we send asylum seekers to Rwanda and we get a plane load back in return. I find that hilarious :)[COLOR="Silver"]
It's dark humour now, looked to me like someone gloating about a few people getting triggered without seeing the bigger picture and still not seeing it apparently, much like when you were saying it was racist because Ukranians werent being treated like this whilst ignoring we've spent the last 6 years telling Europeans to get out of the country

1andrew1 15-06-2022 16:16
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36125402)
Even if they're exaggerating by half it's still an obscenely high number and I'd say they're a better source than fullfacts opinion piece
FullFacts was not an opinion piece. Julian and Pierre misunderstood it and I don't blame them them as it could have been clearer. But it was no opinion piece.

ianch99 15-06-2022 16:29
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36125402)
Even if they're exaggerating by half it's still an obscenely high number and I'd say they're a better source than fullfacts opinion piece



It's dark humour now, looked to me like someone gloating about a few people getting triggered without seeing the bigger picture and still not seeing it apparently, much like when you were saying it was racist because Ukranians werent being treated like this whilst ignoring we've spent the last 6 years telling Europeans to get out of the country
I'd prefer an unbiased source that proved that most channel crossing individuals are passport discarding economic migrants with an option on Islamic terrorism. Call me Mr Picky :)

Your point on telling Europeans to Foxtrot Oscar after Brexit and then allowing a few back as refugees is an interesting one.

---------- Post added at 16:29 ---------- Previous post was at 16:27 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125398)
You just don't like Conservatives.
But Seph, this lot are not "Conservatives" as most people with an awareness of the past would define them. They are light years away from the "One Nation" Conservatives, and those of the Thatcher & John Major eras.

TheDaddy 15-06-2022 16:36
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36125408)
FullFacts was not an opinion piece. Julian and Pierre misunderstood it and I don't blame them them as it could have been clearer. But it was no opinion piece.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36125410)
I'd prefer an unbiased source that proved that most channel crossing individuals are passport discarding economic migrants with an option on Islamic terrorism. Call me Mr Picky :)

Your point on telling Europeans to Foxtrot Oscar after Brexit and then allowing a few back as refugees is an interesting one.
Where do you think MigrationWatch got that figure from, made it up? Or from Baroness Hoey who said it in the House of Lords on 25/11/21 except she said most of the 98% claiming to be asylum seekers destroyed documents

1andrew1 15-06-2022 16:53
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125381)

We now need to get the UNHCR/EHCR articles updated. That'll take some time but in the meantime, we must find legal methods to stop the people trafficking.
Other countries in the EU successfully returned migrants to other countries; using the Dublin Agreement; we just didn't use it much. We need to get closer to our friends in the EU and re-join the agreement. Our current threats to break international treaties make this pretty hard at the moment.

I'm not sure trying to change UNHCR/EHCR articles is the way to go. Having locations in Europe where asylum-seekers could apply for asylum and be accepted or declined in a timely manner seems a sensible way of reducing numbers coming in by small boats.

TheDaddy 15-06-2022 17:04
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36125414)
Other countries in the EU successfully returned migrants to other countries; using the Dublin Agreement; we just didn't use it much. We need to get closer to our friends in the EU and re-join the agreement. Our current threats to break international treaties make this pretty hard at the moment.

I'm not sure trying to change UNHCR/EHCR articles is the way to go. Having locations in Europe where asylum-seekers could apply for asylum and be accepted or declined in a timely manner seems a sensible way of reducing numbers coming in by small boats.
What's in it for France or the EU as a whole to re admit us to Dublin agreement?

You don't think this was their plan all along, knowing the law would stop this is a perfect excuse for dumping ECHR and they know a fair proportion of the country will support them, this is the party of law and order :rofl: don't like or get caught out by the law, change it, break the law rewrite it, law stops your policy dump the law givers, this trend could have serious ramifications for us all in the end

Hugh 15-06-2022 17:49
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36125415)
What's in it for France or the EU as a whole to re admit us to Dublin agreement?

You don't think this was their plan all along, knowing the law would stop this is a perfect excuse for dumping ECHR and they know a fair proportion of the country will support them, this is the party of law and order :rofl: don't like or get caught out by the law, change it, break the law rewrite it, law stops your policy dump the law givers, this trend could have serious ramifications for us all in the end
By doing that, they would beggar up the Good Friday Agreement…

https://committees.parliament.uk/wri...ce/23735/html/

Quote:
Written evidence from the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission (HRA0044)

The NIHRC provides this submission to the Joint Human Rights Committee (JCHR) on the Independent Human Rights Act Review (IHRAR).


The NI Context

The Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement 1998 created a duty on the UK government to incorporate the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) into domestic law “with direct access to the courts, and remedies for breach of the Convention, including the power for the courts to overrule Assembly legislation on the grounds of inconsistency”.[1] This incorporation was achieved through the HRA.[2]


The continuing centrality of human rights protection and a commitment to the GFA, is evidenced through the NI protocol to the EU/UK Withdrawal Agreement. The UK government made a commitment to “no diminution of rights under the Rights, Safeguards and Equality of Opportunities” section of GFA.[3] Given the UK government’s commitment to uphold the GFA and ensure no diminution of rights, we would caution against any proposals, which diminish access to remedies for ECHR violations through reform of the HRA.


In keeping with commitments under the GFA, the ECHR is embedded into the Northern Ireland Act 1998 (NIA), with sections 6 and 24 requiring compatibility with Convention rights. While the IHRAR is not reviewing the content of the Convention rights, potential recommendations for changes to operational mechanisms may consequently affect the NIA.

TheDaddy 15-06-2022 17:52
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36125417)
By doing that, they would beggar up the Good Friday Agreement…

https://committees.parliament.uk/wri...ce/23735/html/
It doesn't appear they've been that bothered about beggaring it up so far tbf

Sephiroth 15-06-2022 18:03
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36125410)
<SNIP>


But Seph, this lot are not "Conservatives" as most people with an awareness of the past would define them. They are light years away from the "One Nation" Conservatives, and those of the Thatcher & John Major eras.
I can't argue with that, Ian. Doesn't make me wrong, though.

ianch99 15-06-2022 19:25
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125420)
I can't argue with that, Ian. Doesn't make me wrong, though.
I take your point about the illegal(?) disposal of identity documents making it harder to be processed but as to the exact numbers involved, that remains to be proven.

However, this whole project is not really about if those chosen have or have not documents when they get off their boats, it is, as Chris alluded to, an affront to our sense of morality & duty of care as a nation. We are just better than this.

Sephiroth 15-06-2022 19:47
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36125429)
I take your point about the illegal(?) disposal of identity documents making it harder to be processed but as to the exact numbers involved, that remains to be proven.

However, this whole project is not really about if those chosen have or have not documents when they get off their boats, it is, as Chris alluded to, an affront to our sense of morality & duty of care as a nation. We are just better than this.
It's more complex than that. Morality cuts in more than one way. It seems immoral to me that illegal migration causes the Guvmin to spend millions (c. £5m/day --> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2006820.html ) when poor citizens can't afford to buy food or travel to their medical appointments and so on.

The Guvmin's duty to the UK people also includes knowing who is entering our country. These fit young men are economic migrants (at least mainly) - and where did they get the money to pay the traffickers? What's going on there?

mrmistoffelees 15-06-2022 19:58
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125433)
It's more complex than that. Morality cuts in more than one way. It seems immoral to me that illegal migration causes the Guvmin to spend millions (c. £5m/day --> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2006820.html ) when poor citizens can't afford to buy food or travel to their medical appointments and so on.

The Guvmin's duty to the UK people also includes knowing who is entering our country. These fit young men are economic migrants (at least mainly) - and where did they get the money to pay the traffickers? What's going on there?
I’d be willing to bet that that c. £ 5m a day when calculated on a per head basis is a lot less than the estimated £500k it was going to cost to fly seven or eight people to Rwanda. Where does that sit with your view on immorality ? Considering as you say citizens can’t afford to buy food etc.

Sephiroth 15-06-2022 20:02
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36125435)
I’d be willing to bet that that c. £ 5m a day when calculated on a per head basis is a lot less than the estimated £500k it was going to cost to fly seven or eight people to Rwanda. Where does that sit with your view on immorality ? Considering as you say citizens can’t afford to buy food etc.
I think you're being shallow here. In the wider picture, if they stick 100+ illegal migrants on a flight, then the figure changes dramatically. One has to start somewhere.

mrmistoffelees 15-06-2022 20:11
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125436)
I think you're being shallow here. In the wider picture, if they stick 100+ illegal migrants on a flight, then the figure changes dramatically. One has to start somewhere.
it would still be greater spend per head to fly them to Rwanda imho even at the figures you quote

---------- Post added at 20:11 ---------- Previous post was at 20:06 ----------

Please excuse the fag packet maths but £4.7m divided by approx 37,000 (iirc) so that’s £127 per day on accommodation, even adding extras on still some way to go to get it up to the cost of the flight….

GrimUpNorth 15-06-2022 22:12
Re: Deportation of illegal migrants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125398)
You just don't like Conservatives.
No, I just don't like this lot.


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