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-   -   Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33710408)

1andrew1 28-09-2021 10:58
Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Joins LNER and Northern Trains in being run by the state.
Quote:
Southeastern trains taken over by Government after £25,000,000 breach

Southeastern trains will be taken over by Government after a probe discovered that millions of pounds of taxpayers’ cash had gone undeclared.

Transport Secretary Grant Shapps said that since October 2014, the company has not declared more than £25 million of historic taxpayer funding which should have been returned.

He described this as a ‘significant breach’ of the franchise agreement.

Fares, tickets and services will be unchanged for millions of commuters who use the service when the Government’s Operator of Last Resort (OLR) takes over....

The move will come into force on October 17.

Further investigations are being conducted and the Government said it will consider options for more action, including financial penalties.

Southeastern is run by Govia and operates services across south-east England, covering London, Kent, East Sussex and the High Speed 1 Lines.
https://metro.co.uk/2021/09/28/south...each-15327037/

Mr K 28-09-2021 11:17
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Maybe they could use the opportunity to tackle the absurd fare prices. Hardly encouraging anyone back to the workplace. Cheaper to fly from city to city in the UK.
Its what happens when profit is put before service.

BenMcr 28-09-2021 13:40
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36094991)
Maybe they could use the opportunity to tackle the absurd fare prices. Hardly encouraging anyone back to the workplace. Cheaper to fly from city to city in the UK.
Its what happens when profit is put before service.
That could be tackled no matter who runs the actual trains - unfortunately even after the effective nationalisation of the railways last year, the fares still went up this year as part of government policy.

mrmistoffelees 02-10-2021 22:33
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
I was looking at booking travel to go to our Paris office, until a confirmed covid case closed it.

It would cost me more (significantly more) For a return from Middlesbrough to London kings cross in cattle class than it would for me to get a Eurostar premier return from St P to Gare du Nord

Utterly ridiculous

OLD BOY 04-10-2021 15:21
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36094991)
Maybe they could use the opportunity to tackle the absurd fare prices. Hardly encouraging anyone back to the workplace. Cheaper to fly from city to city in the UK.
Its what happens when profit is put before service.
The high fares are due to the government decision to cover the cost of railway modernisation partially through fares charged to the users of the service who will benefit from it.

Charges normally go down rather than up when they are privatised. That’s because the private sector can take a profit from efficiency savings and still have money left for price reductions.

Nationalised industries tend to be very inefficient because the financial discipline just isn’t there and jobsworths are tolerated.

1andrew1 04-10-2021 17:48
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36095774)
The high fares are due to the government decision to cover the cost of railway modernisation partially through fares charged to the users of the service who will benefit from it.

Charges normally go down rather than up when they are privatised. That’s because the private sector can take a profit from efficiency savings and still have money left for price reductions.

Nationalised industries tend to be very inefficient because the financial discipline just isn’t there and jobsworths are tolerated.
There's not really much of a link between investment in rail and the fares box. The issues around fares are:
- Very confusing pricing offers.
- Historical fares structure built on BR's approach of having to up prices to reduce demand rather than investing in more capacity. Hence the cost per mile for tickets varies depending on the line used with the East Coast route the most expensive.
- Government decision to increase fares by 1% plus inflation to move cost of railways more towards passengers and away from taxpayers.

jfman 04-10-2021 18:01
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36095774)
The high fares are due to the government decision to cover the cost of railway modernisation partially through fares charged to the users of the service who will benefit from it.

Charges normally go down rather than up when they are privatised. That’s because the private sector can take a profit from efficiency savings and still have money left for price reductions.

Nationalised industries tend to be very inefficient because the financial discipline just isn’t there and jobsworths are tolerated.
Yawn cry me a river. Never heard so much tosh in all my life.

Charges go down in industries where there is genuine competition. However for many fares on many routes all we have are regional monopolies. Anything squeezed out in profits follows the classic model of privatising the profits and nationalising the losses once TOC subsidies run dry.

Halcyon 05-10-2021 10:50
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
All trains should be re-nationalised.

BenMcr 05-10-2021 10:58
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcyon (Post 36095898)
All trains should be re-nationalised.
They have been / will be to a point but you'll still get private firms contracted to run the services on behalf of the government.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...n-for-rail.pdf

Quote:
A new public body, Great British Railways, will run and plan the rail network, own the infrastructure, and receive the fare revenue. It will procure passenger services and set most fares and timetables. This will bring the whole system under single, national leadership with a new brand and identity, built upon the famous double arrow. This will mark the end of a quarter century of fragmentation.
Quote:
Great British Railways will contract with private partners to operate trains to the timetable and fares it sets, in a similar way to London’s successful Overground service. The contracts will include strong incentives for operators to run high-quality services and increase passenger demand. Contracts will not be one size fits all, so as demand recovers, operators on long-distance routes will have more commercial freedom to help attract new passengers in partnership with Great British Railways. Freight is already a nimble, largely private sector market and will remain so. It will benefit from national co-ordination, new safeguards and a rules-based access system that will help it to grow and thrive.

Chris 05-10-2021 13:57
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
It looks like a move towards something that looks more like a management contract model than a franchise.

OLD BOY 06-10-2021 17:56
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcyon (Post 36095898)
All trains should be re-nationalised.
Clearly, you weren’t around when the nationalised British Rail was operating their dusty old trains with British Rail turned-up sandwiches.

Carth 06-10-2021 18:49
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36096121)
Clearly, you weren’t around when the nationalised British Rail was operating their dusty old trains with British Rail turned-up sandwiches.
I think there are a few commuters that would rather have a dusty old train than a 3 hour wait on a cold wet platform ;)

Hugh 06-10-2021 19:09
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36096121)
Clearly, you weren’t around when the nationalised British Rail was operating their dusty old trains with British Rail turned-up sandwiches.
Ah, the joys of privatisation…

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...2&d=1633540163

Chris 06-10-2021 19:14
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36096138)
Still less crowded than some Japanese commuter routes. At least we’ve never had to employ uniformed crammers to shove people into carriages. :D

heero_yuy 06-10-2021 19:15
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Ah yes the joys of the old slam door southern region carriages. The couldn't care less attitude of the staff and the dirty stations.

Do we really want to go back to that?

Hugh 06-10-2021 19:25
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Perhaps lack of investment, be it private or state, is the issue?

Most European counties treat rail travel as a utility, in that good rail transport benefits the consumers and the country, so is worth subsidising.

Carth 06-10-2021 23:53
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Lots of investment in HS2 . . . possibly the priorities are wrong?

Chris 07-10-2021 00:07
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36096214)
Lots of investment in HS2 . . . possibly the priorities are wrong?
No, for once the priority is right, though arguably it should have been built the other way round, so as to improve connectivity in central and northern England before connecting it back to London.

All the complaining about it is just classic British short termism, typified by the argument that the money should have been spent on further capacity for the west coast main line - this might have been quicker and cheaper but it wouldn’t have delivered the step-change required.

Electrically powered mass transit by air is still a very distant prospect, so investing in rapid electric rail is essential if we are going to want to maintain the ability to travel about without loading shedloads of co2 into the atmosphere.

pip08456 07-10-2021 01:17
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36096217)
No, for once the priority is right, though arguably it should have been built the other way round, so as to improve connectivity in central and northern England before connecting it back to London.

All the complaining about it is just classic British short termism, typified by the argument that the money should have been spent on further capacity for the west coast main line - this might have been quicker and cheaper but it wouldn’t have delivered the step-change required.

Electrically powered mass transit by air is still a very distant prospect, so investing in rapid electric rail is essential if we are going to want to maintain the ability to travel about without loading shedloads of co2 into the atmosphere.
So we need more nuclear power for when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow.

Hugh 07-10-2021 01:19
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36096229)
So we need more nuclear power for when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow.
I agree - we need a mix.

pip08456 07-10-2021 02:21
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36096232)
I agree - we need a mix.
Of course we do, it's common sense. That is in short supply atm though.

1andrew1 07-10-2021 10:09
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36096229)
So we need more nuclear power for when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow.
More urgently, we need storage for gas and electricity. But that's another discussion. ;)

pip08456 07-10-2021 10:18
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Storage for electricity would cost not billions but trillions. Shale gas would have put us in a better position.

Have a listen to this.

https://twitter.com/talkRADIO/status...16664961699840

OLD BOY 07-10-2021 15:26
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Ultimately, nuclear fusion seems to be the answer, but that is still some years away yet.

pip08456 07-10-2021 17:26
Re: Southeastern Trains nationalised over breach of trust
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36096350)
Ultimately, nuclear fusion seems to be the answer, but that is still some years away yet.
That does not mean nuclear fission is not an alternative to gas generation of electricity.


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