Cable Forum - Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

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Mick	15-08-2021 12:12

Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

BREAKING: UK Parliament to be recalled due to deteriorating situation in Afghanistan.

https://news.sky.com/story/parliamen...ation-12382157

papa smurf

15-08-2021 12:35

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36089811)

BREAKING: UK Parliament to be recalled due to deteriorating situation in Afghanistan.

https://news.sky.com/story/parliamen...ation-12382157

"deteriorating situation"

it's a total balls up.

Jaymoss

15-08-2021 12:37

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Well I do not see how they can go back in now. 20 years and many lives wasted. 3 months and the Taliban are on the edge of talking over the country again. Dunno what they thought was going to happen tbh

mrmistoffelees

15-08-2021 12:55

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Now, it might just be me, but I can’t see the taliban suddenly listening to what the U.K. government says.

Hundreds of U.K. combat forces life’s lost over the past twenty years,
and ultimately for what ?

A cataclysmic, shambolic foreign policy failure by the U.K. the US and all other NATO forces

Mick	15-08-2021 13:27

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Neil @afneil

Biden’s strategy to end 20-year US involvement in Afghanistan — leaving Afghan forces to hold off Taliban for months as negotiators try to hammer out a peace deal — is in shreds. Also in Feb he promised to consult US allies. But the cut and run in Afghan was a US fait accompli.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piers Morgan @piersmorgan

Biden’s desertion of Afghanistan will be his Vietnam - a self-inflicted wound of disastrous proportions. Incredible, and utterly shameful, that the most ‘woke’ US President in history has left millions of women to the merciless murderous clutches of the world’s worst misogynists.

Troop withdrawal was initially a President Trump decision. However, Biden is the President now, this is on his watch, he reversed many of Trump’s policies on day one, he could have done same here. But collectively, this is a joint NATO disaster, that the world has sleepwalked in to.

1andrew1

15-08-2021 13:36

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Not sure what Parliament can do next week as by the Taliban will have captured the country by then. I guess it will just be about how many refugees we can take in.

jfman

15-08-2021 13:46

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36089819)

Not sure what Parliament can do next week as by the Taliban will have captured the country by then. I guess it will just be about how many refugees we can take in.

I’m going to guess not many. Ultimately the burden will fall on Iran, we will keep sanctions on them and be completely unsurprised when these people and their children grow up to hate us.

Jaymoss

15-08-2021 13:48

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36089816)

I for one was not sleepwalking. It was always obviously going to happen

Taf	15-08-2021 13:51

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

The peace agreement was made effectively giving the Taliban the right to take over peacefully, after a withdrawal of coalition military, providing they prevented groups like Al-Qaeda from operating on Afghan soil.

But such groups just operate from Pakistan with the blessing of the Pakistani Secret Service.

Democracy there is now dead, and cooperation with the West is unlikely ever again, especially as the Taliban are in talks with China.

Jaymoss

15-08-2021 13:52

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36089820)

I’m going to guess not many. Ultimately the burden will fall on Iran, and we will keep sanctions on them and be completely unsurprised when these people and their children grow up to hate us.

The West made the Taliban anyway just because we did not want the Russians to have a foothold in the region. Same thing happened when the West supported Iraq against Iran

mrmistoffelees

15-08-2021 13:59

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36089816)

Agree on that with one addition and one correction.

1) Biden wasn’t involved in secret talks with the taliban
2j As others have said, blatantly obvious what was going to happen/is happening

OLD BOY

15-08-2021 14:16

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

It’s those Afghans who worked with us against the Taliban I feel sorry for. We should not have left them behind. They are now doomed.

What a way to behave. I hope the US and UK governments don’t expect any help from the native population when invading any country in the future. I am ashamed that we have abandoned them to their fate.

Mick	15-08-2021 15:22

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

BREAKING: Afghan President Ashraf Ghani has fled to Dushambe, Tajik media reports

Damien

15-08-2021 16:04

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

When the consequences of leaving were so obvious and brutal to people who've gotten used to the rights you encouraged them to make use of then you simply can't just abandon them. This is terrible.

Mick	15-08-2021 17:18

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

LATEST: Prime Minister Boris Johnson is chairing an emergency Cobra meeting to discuss the rapidly deteriorating situation in Afghanistan, Downing Street source confirms.

Taf	15-08-2021 17:40

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36089824)

The West made the Taliban anyway just because we did not want the Russians to have a foothold in the region. Same thing happened when the West supported Iraq against Iran

Quote:

The Taliban, or "students" in the Pashto language, emerged in the early 1990s in northern Pakistan following the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Afghanistan. It is believed that the predominantly Pashtun movement first appeared in religious seminaries - mostly paid for by money from Saudi Arabia - which preached a hardline form of Sunni Islam.

The promise made by the Taliban - in Pashtun areas straddling Pakistan and Afghanistan - was to restore peace and security and enforce their own austere version of Sharia, or Islamic law, once in power.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11451718

They were, and still are, supported and aided by Pakistan's ISI.

Damien

15-08-2021 17:40

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

What can he do now? "Opps! Oh well"

jfman

15-08-2021 17:45

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36089848)

What can he do now? "Opps! Oh well"

Prevents Starmer’s first question being “was this not worth interrupting your weekend for?”.

Chris

15-08-2021 17:53

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf (Post 36089847)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11451718

They were, and still are, supported and aided by Pakistan's ISI.

Indeed. We didn’t make the Taliban directly; we made their grandfathers, the Mujahideen who resisted Soviet occupation in the 1980s. We trained and equipped them and through them bequeathed their whole society with the knowledge of how to take over a country via guerilla warfare.

SAS tactics combined with sheer religious fanaticism is a powerful mix.

peanut

15-08-2021 18:02

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

What really can you say apart from what a total clusterf..

Don't see the point in discussing it in parliament, the horse has well and truly bolted.

Mick	15-08-2021 18:58

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

NEW: Canada has initiated a huge humanitarian effort
by accepting Afghan refugees, they will take 20,000.

---------- Post added at 17:27 ---------- Previous post was at 17:09 ----------

Kabul has fallen. U.S President Biden, in hiding.

---------- Post added at 17:58 ---------- Previous post was at 17:27 ----------

BREAKING: KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — Taliban official says they will soon declare the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan from the presidential palace in Kabul.

peanut

15-08-2021 19:15

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

All Trump's fault - according to Biden. No surprise there then.

Carth

15-08-2021 19:40

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Cobra Meeting:

Boris: Right chaps, any ideas on the current situation?

The Room: mumble mumble . . Vulcan Bombers . . mumble mumble . . face masks . . mumble . . flock wallpaper . . mumble mumble . . bloody Aresnal . . mumble . .

Hugh	15-08-2021 19:45

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36089863)

All Trump's fault - according to Biden. No surprise there then.

Not quite - he’s taken responsibility for the decision.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-...n-afghanistan/

Quote:

When I came to office, I inherited a deal cut by my predecessor—which he invited the Taliban to discuss at Camp David on the eve of 9/11 of 2019—that left the Taliban in the strongest position militarily since 2001 and imposed a May 1, 2021 deadline on U.S. Forces. Shortly before he left office, he also drew U.S. Forces down to a bare minimum of 2,500. Therefore, when I became President, I faced a choice—follow through on the deal, with a brief extension to get our Forces and our allies’ Forces out safely, or ramp up our presence and send more American troops to fight once again in another country’s civil conflict. I was the fourth President to preside over an American troop presence in Afghanistan—two Republicans, two Democrats. I would not, and will not, pass this war onto a fifth.

Mick	15-08-2021 19:52

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Statement by Donald J. Trump, 45th President of the United States of America:-

Joe Biden gets it wrong every time on foreign policy, and many other issues. Everyone knew he couldn’t handle the pressure. Even Obama’s Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates, said as much. He ran out of Afghanistan instead of following the plan our Administration left for him—a plan that protected our people and our property, and ensured the Taliban would never dream of taking our Embassy or providing a base for new attacks against America. The withdrawal would be guided by facts on the ground. After I took out ISIS, I established a credible deterrent. That deterrent is now gone. The Taliban no longer has fear or respect for America, or America’s power. What a disgrace it will be when the Taliban raises their flag over America’s Embassy in Kabul. This is complete failure through weakness, incompetence, and total strategic incoherence.

peanut

15-08-2021 20:11

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

They are both as bad as each other. Trump started it with his 'America first' foreign policy.

Damien

15-08-2021 20:12

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Yes, it's Biden who takes responsibility for this. Trump probably would have done the same thing and was planning as much but Trump lost and, as Mick says, Biden could have reversed this decision.

Mick	15-08-2021 20:21

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Reuters News Agency:Afghan Media now Reporting of Several Explosions in Afghanistan Capital, Kabul.

Damien

15-08-2021 20:24

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36089871)

Reuters News Agency:Afghan Media now Reporting of Several Explosions in Afghanistan Capital, Kabul.

People fighting back? The Taliban aren't going to be so stupid as to attack Western forces that are in the process of leaving are they?

Mr K	15-08-2021 20:31

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

God knows how the families of the 454 British troops and civilians that have died in Afghanistan feel. What was it for?

Mick	15-08-2021 20:52

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Democrat Leader of the House of Representatives:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nancy Pelosi @SpeakerPelosi

The President is to be commended for the clarity of purpose of his statement on Afghanistan and his action. The Taliban must know the world is watching its actions. We are concerned about reports regarding the Taliban’s brutal treatment of all Afghans, especially women and girls.

WTF is she smoking? :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 19:52 ---------- Previous post was at 19:37 ----------

Local journalist reporting a Taliban leader saying tonight: “I was detained in Guantanamo bay camp for several years”, reported to have stated this while inside the presidential palace in #Kabul. #Afghanistan

Hugh	15-08-2021 20:54

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36089878)

God knows how the families of the 454 British troops and civilians that have died in Afghanistan feel. What was it for?

Ah, the old "sunk cost" fallacy...

456 have died so far, let's add some deaths/serious injuries to show their sacrifice wasn't in vain... :rolleyes:

Mick	15-08-2021 21:12

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

President Biden last month boasted that the Afghan army was one of the best equipped in the world. That this was state of the art, latest US military equipment they had and it is now in the hands of the Taliban, who today released hundreds of terrorists being held at Bagram airbase. The clock has been reset back 20 years, the World will be plunged in to a refreshed era of major Terrorism.

Chris

15-08-2021 21:21

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Biden has royally screwed up. Who cares that that preening fool Trump cut a deal with terrorists - what could the Taliban have actually done about it had Biden decided to keep troops in country? His NATO allies and his own generals were all warning him just how quickly the Taliban would start partying like it’s 1999 in the absence of western forces to stop them.

Give it 5 years and the whole country will be a jihadi boot camp; a couple more and western capitals will be on permanent security alert. The only way this ends is with a permanent external security presence in Afghanistan. The US seems to have managed it on the Korean Peninsula. They could have managed it here, and they wouldn’t have done so alone. I predict that this is Biden’s legacy, and time and history won’t easily heal it.

Damien

15-08-2021 21:25

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36089891)

Yes although there is an argument that the Taliban might take against allowing Afghanistan to become a place for terrorists to seek refuge. They are focused on keeping themselves in power and won't want to invite a Western response down the line. Islamic terror networks in recent years also seem to be more focused on encouraging lone-wolf attackers as well.

Chris

15-08-2021 21:31

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Those terror networks have been constrained by their reduced training opportunities. They will no longer face such restraints on training once a terrorist regime is running Afghanistan. I don’t think the Taliban are suddenly going to become responsible global citizens when their religious ideology is hard-wired for holy war against crusaders and zionists.

Mick	15-08-2021 21:53

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Pentagon, yes, that’s not a typo, Pentagon (Not President?) authorises additional 1,000 U.S troops to Afghanistan to aid evacuation efforts bringing total troop deployment to 6,000.

Wtf is the U.S President?

Hugh	15-08-2021 21:55

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36089894)

??

https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle...d3d3ca6b0953f2

Quote:

Biden orders 1,000 more troops to aid Afghanistan departure

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Joe Biden authorized on Saturday an additional 1,000 U.S. troops for deployment to Afghanistan, raising to roughly 5,000 the number of U.S. troops to ensure what Biden called an “orderly and safe drawdown” of American and allied personnel.

Mick	15-08-2021 22:07

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

That was yesterday, this 1,000 is on top of the 5,000 already deployed Hugh.

Damien

15-08-2021 22:15

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36089899)

That was yesterday, this 1,000 is on top of the 5,000 already deployed Hugh.

The Fox News Pentagon reporter is saying Biden authorised it:

Quote:

BREAKING: President Biden orders 1,000 more paratroopers from 82nd Airborne to Kabul to evacuate Americans. 6,000 U.S. troops will now be on the ground in Afghanistan.

https://twitter.com/LucasFoxNews/sta...95373520924675

I don't think it means much. It's that it has to be his order so Pentagon requests and he accepts.

1andrew1

16-08-2021 00:10

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Good article here on why Afghanistan fell so quickly

Quote:

Low morale, no support and poor politics explain why Afghan army folded

Former western military officials and independent academics say the collapse of the Afghan armed forces reflects widespread public disillusionment with President Ashraf Ghani’s government, chronic corruption and mismanagement within the armed forces, and a sheer lack of confidence among the troops that they could win against the Taliban without US military and intelligence support.

“The problem with the army was not lack of training or weapons. The most important thing in war is politics,” said Mike Martin, a former British army officer and author of a book about Afghanistan’s decades-long conflict, An Intimate War...

“The Taliban political franchise was able to peel off bits of the government because the government did not tend to its constituents enough — the tribes, clans, militias and ethnicities. That is the fundamental issue,” Martin said. “The army commanders just surrendered in return for amnesty, which the Taliban granted them and let them go home.”

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...es&ocid=UCPNC2

---------- Post added at 23:10 ---------- Previous post was at 21:23 ----------

Biden's words did not age well. Neither have Johnson's. Strange that these politicians failed to see what everyone else did.

Quote:

I would just say to the Taliban that they have made the commitment that I read out to the House, in their negotiations with General* Khalilzad. They must abide by that commitment. I am sure that they will be aware that there is no military path to victory for the Taliban. There must be a political and negotiated settlement for the political crisis in Afghanistan, and the UK will continue to work to ensure that that takes place. I believe that can happen - I do not believe that the Taliban are guaranteed the kind of victory that we sometimes read about.

Boris Johnson, House of Commons, 8 July 2021.
* Not a General, he's a diplomat, but that's the least of the issues with this statement.

TheDaddy

16-08-2021 03:31

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36089870)

Yes, it's Biden who takes responsibility for this. Trump probably would have done the same thing and was planning as much but Trump lost and, as Mick says, Biden could have reversed this decision.

Donny would have done it quicker, he praised Biden for doing it and criticised him for doing it at a slow pace. Personally I think Biden is to blame for this, American generals ran the clock down on donny in the hope someone sane would take over and they got joe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36089878)

God knows how the families of the 454 British troops and civilians that have died in Afghanistan feel. What was it for?

Nothing, I went to school with someone who died on 9/11 and with another who died in Afghanistan and I can't work it out

noel43

16-08-2021 10:34

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36089884)

Ah, the old "sunk cost" fallacy...

456 have died so far, let's add some deaths/serious injuries to show their sacrifice wasn't in vain... :rolleyes:

We shouldn't have been there in the first place. Most of the brit
Population didn't want this war. Tony Blair wanted to sit at the top table with the big boys. Tony's wife said I would never let my son join the army while he was sending out lads to fight.

mrmistoffelees

16-08-2021 11:06

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by noel43 (Post 36089929)

Regardless of if the war was just or not, the fact is it happened, IMHO we have a duty of responsibility & care to the people of Afghanistan.

Already this morning it's being reported that women are being turned away from their places of work, five people have been killed during stampedes at Kabul airport..

Mick	16-08-2021 11:22

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36089932)

Some really heartbreaking footage of Afghan civilians at a Kabul Airport, trying to stop a U.S Military jet from taking off so they can all climb aboard.

Meanwhile, Wall Street Journal is not holding off any punches this morning:

Quote:

President Biden tries to duck responsibility for the worst U.S. humiliation since the fall of Saigon in 1975, writes The Editorial Board

1andrew1

16-08-2021 11:38

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Some good analysis by Sky News on who's to blame for this bad scenario. I was interested to see the point about NATO leaders and whether the rest of NATO could have continued in the country without US backing.

Quote:

The finger of blame can be pointed in many directions:

• at Donald Trump for negotiating a bad deal with the Taliban last year;

• at Joe Biden for the secretive and sudden way in which he pulled US troops out;

• at Boris Johnson, Jens Stoltenberg and other NATO leaders for failing to agree a framework to keep forces in the country, even without American support;

• at President Ashraf Ghani for isolating much of his country and alienating provinces and local leaders;

• and at Afghan forces, who after years of training and mentoring, and equipped with trillions of dollars of high-tech equipment, seemingly gave up with little fight.

The truth, I'm afraid, is always far more nuanced in these situations, as much as our natural instinct wants a single fall guy. And this isn't a one-off.

https://news.sky.com/story/afghanist...tions-12382625

mrmistoffelees

16-08-2021 11:42

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36089935)

Yep, I've got Sky news on in the background. As you say, heartbreaking.

IMHO Whilst Biden should be aportioned the majority of the blame here (As he could of changed position) Trump can't be allowed to escape completely guilt free. Both have used the withdrawal as an attempt to secure victory in elections (Biden in the upcoming mid terms) NATO (inc UK) have showed that it's follow the US.

My worst fear is that the NATO organisations are allowed to leave. Then, the crackdown begins.

noel43

16-08-2021 11:49

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36089936)

What about who started this Bush and Blair. Blair has made a fortune out of this.

mrmistoffelees

16-08-2021 11:52

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by noel43 (Post 36089938)

What about who started this Bush and Blair. Blair has made a fortune out of this.

Right now, what's more important ? Bush & Blair being held accountable? Or, the imminent humanitarian crisis ?

Carth

16-08-2021 11:58

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Hindsight and the blame game . . the media are on a roll again :rolleyes:

What of the future?

Will civil contractors be falling over themselves chasing the £millions to be earned rebuilding Afghanistan infrastructure?

Will Doctors & Nurses be heading there in droves to tend the sick?

Will airlines be confident of scheduling flights in & out?

I know that I wouldn't go anywhere near the place :no:

noel43

16-08-2021 12:03

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36089939)

Right now, what's more important ? Bush & Blair being held accountable? Or, the imminent humanitarian crisis ?

People being made accountable aswell

mrmistoffelees

16-08-2021 12:16

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by noel43 (Post 36089941)

People being made accountable aswell

I asked you which is more important ?

noel43

16-08-2021 12:26

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36089942)

I asked you which is more important ?

Both

Mick	16-08-2021 12:32

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Humanity comes before accountability. Nearly everyone is to blame, so it’s no good every country pointing at the other. It’s a joint disaster. But the U.S will be the one every one is looking at.

TheDaddy

16-08-2021 12:44

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by noel43 (Post 36089929)

I think the population was fine with Afghanistan, not that we had a choice if we wanted to stay in NATO

papa smurf

16-08-2021 12:45

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Just to recap on what Joe said......

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...l-video-latest

1andrew1

16-08-2021 13:13

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36089820)

I’m going to guess not many. Ultimately the burden will fall on Iran, we will keep sanctions on them and be completely unsurprised when these people and their children grow up to hate us.

Quote:

Ben Wallace also refuses to predict how many asylum seekers will arrive in UK after 41,000 settled last time Taliban was in control

https://news.sky.com/story/afghanist...force-12382060

jfman

16-08-2021 13:25

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36089942)

I asked you which is more important ?

Which is more achievable?

While we can find billions in “defence” expenditure to go on these sojourns into far flung lands at the behest of the USA we suddenly become “an island of limited resources” when it comes to humanitarian aid.

Hugh	16-08-2021 13:34

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Interesting article on how the Taliban took over the provinces (behind a paywall, but you may be able to read it using "private browsing" or an Incognito tab on Chrome.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...lapse-taliban/

Quote:

KABUL — The spectacular collapse of Afghanistan’s military that allowed Taliban fighters to walk into the Afghan capital Sunday despite 20 years of training and billions of dollars in American aid began with a series of deals brokered in rural villages between the militant group and some of the Afghan government’s lowest-ranking officials. 

The deals, initially offered early last year, were often described by Afghan officials as cease-fires, but Taliban leaders were in fact offering money in exchange for government forces to hand over their weapons, according to an Afghan officer and a U.S. official. 

Over the next year and a half, the meetings advanced to the district level and then rapidly on to provincial capitals, culminating in a breathtaking series of negotiated surrenders by government forces, according to interviews with more than a dozen Afghan officers, police, special operations troops and other soldiers. 

Within a little more than a week, Taliban fighters overran more than a dozen provincial capitals and entered Kabul with no resistance, triggering the departure of Afghanistan’s president and the collapse of his government. Afghan security forces in the districts ringing Kabul and in the city itself simply melted away. By nightfall, police checkpoints were left abandoned and the militants roamed the streets freely.

Quote:

The pace of the military collapse has stunned many American officials and other foreign observers, forcing the U.S. government to dramatically accelerate efforts to remove personnel from its embassy in Kabul. 

The Taliban capitalized on the uncertainty caused by the February 2020 agreement reached in Doha, Qatar, between the militant group and the United States calling for a full American withdrawal from Afghanistan.

Some Afghan forces realized they would soon no longer be able to count on American air power and other crucial battlefield support and grew receptive to the Taliban’s approaches. “Some just wanted the money,” an Afghan special forces officer said of those who first agreed to meet with the Taliban. But others saw the U.S. commitment to a full withdrawal as an “assurance” that the militants would return to power in Afghanistan and wanted to secure their place on the winning side, he said. The officer spoke on the condition of anonymity because he, like others in this report, was not authorized to disclose information to the press.

 The Doha agreement, designed to bring an end to the war in Afghanistan, instead left many Afghan forces demoralized, bringing into stark relief the corrupt impulses of many Afghan officials and their tenuous loyalty to the country’s central government. Some police officers complained that they had not been paid in six months or more.

Mick	16-08-2021 19:19

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

BREAKING: U.S President Joe Biden to return to Washington DC, from Camp David and will deliver an address at 8:45pm UK time from the White House regarding the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan.

1andrew1

16-08-2021 20:02

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36089970)

BREAKING: U.S President Joe Biden to return to Washington DC, from Camp David and will deliver an address at 8:45pm UK time from the White House regarding the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan.

Interesting.

I suspect it will be focused on a US audience and talking about how he's going to get their loved ones home and less about the mess that's being left behind.

papa smurf

16-08-2021 20:15

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36089973)

Interesting.

I suspect it will be focused on a US audience and talking about how he's going to get their loved ones home and less about the mess that's being left behind.

I suspect he'll explain that he is an imbecile and not fit to run a bath let alone the USA.

Damien

16-08-2021 20:30

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36089970)

BREAKING: U.S President Joe Biden to return to Washington DC, from Camp David and will deliver an address at 8:45pm UK time from the White House regarding the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36089973)

Interesting.

I suspect it will be focused on a US audience and talking about how he's going to get their loved ones home and less about the mess that's being left behind.

He'll just say America couldn't be there forever, too many people lost lives, blah blah blah.

It can't be reversed now. They've screwed it all up. There is nothing he can say to justify or stop this failure of American foreign policy. He wanted to meet this pointless 9/11 deadline and here we go. Well done. That's gone really well.

Biden should be on the phone to his former boss to thank him for having killed Bin Laden because that's the only thing that has stopped this 20-year-effort from achieving literally nothing.

jfman

16-08-2021 22:16

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

I wonder when they recorded Sleepy Joe.

papa smurf

16-08-2021 22:31

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36089996)

I wonder when they recorded Sleepy Joe.

10 minutes after they pumped the idiot full of drugs.

Mick	16-08-2021 22:41

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Took no questions, he doesn’t like them press people does he much?

jfman

16-08-2021 22:43

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

I reckon that was just a canned audience and no actual press were present.

papa smurf

16-08-2021 22:44

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36090000)

Took no questions, he doesn’t like them press people does he much?

He knows the press would have torn him to shreds over this.

Mick	16-08-2021 22:44

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Incredibly, his schedule shows he’s not staying in Washington DC either. He’s heading back to Camp David to finish his vacation.

1andrew1

16-08-2021 22:47

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36090002)

He knows the press would have torn him to shreds over this.

Genuine question - would they really have done so?

papa smurf

16-08-2021 22:51

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36090004)

Genuine question - would they really have done so?

Yes that's why he ran away from them.

jfman

16-08-2021 23:14

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36090004)

Genuine question - would they really have done so?

24 hour news channel chasing that “TV moment” where they make an old guy who shouldn’t even be there slur his words? Almost certainly.

Accountability in American politics might even be less important than accountability here, such is the extent the population have been polarised. The Halliburton dividends reaping the rewards of war have long since been paid.

progers

16-08-2021 23:39

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36089841)

LATEST: Prime Minister Boris Johnson is chairing an emergency Cobra meeting to discuss the rapidly deteriorating situation in Afghanistan, Downing Street source confirms.

Closing the door after the horse has bolted!

RichardCoulter

17-08-2021 02:29

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Upsetting to see people so desperate to leave that they tried to hang onto the outside of a plane before dropping to their deaths.

The future looks terrible for those deemed to have helped the USA & the USA, gay people & women in particular.

papa smurf

17-08-2021 09:16

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 36090026)

Yes good old joe has blood on his wrinkled hands.

Mr K	17-08-2021 09:37

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36090030)

Yes good old joe has blood on his wrinkled hands.

He was continuing the same policy as your buddy Donny. 'America First bring our troops home....' All conveniently forgotten now?

Same as with Iraq. We want quick military solutions but aren't prepared to follow it through in the years afterwards, and are gobsmacked when the countries revert to chaos when we lose interest.

Maggy

17-08-2021 10:09

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36090031)

:tu:

Plus damned when we do,damned when we don't. Maybe it's time to stop trying to sort out every tottering government/regime. Yes it worked in WW2 but it's not worked every time since.

mrmistoffelees

17-08-2021 10:25

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36090031)

From a time perspective we followed it through. We spent twenty years fighting the taliban and training their military & police and providing them with equipment.

But we (and by we i mean NATO) failed by

Not understanding the complex political/historical situation in Afghanistan

Allowing the corruption to continue unabated in the military & police.

it's hardly surprising that they collapsed/withdrew when they hadn't been paid for months & had no resupply

Pierre

17-08-2021 10:51

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36090031)

He was continuing the same policy as your buddy Donny. 'America First bring our troops home....' All conveniently forgotten now?
.

why didn't he not continue it then?

nomadking

17-08-2021 11:02

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Link

Quote:

President Barack Obama had promised to end the war, so on Dec. 28, 2014, U.S. and NATO officials held a ceremony at their headquarters in Kabul to mark the occasion.
...
In a statement, Obama called the day “a milestone for our country” and said the United States was safer and more secure after 13 years of war.
“Thanks to the extraordinary sacrifices of our men and women in uniform, our combat mission in Afghanistan is ending and the longest war in American history is coming to a responsible conclusion,” he declared.
...
Obama had scaled back military operations over the previous three years, but he failed to pull the United States out of the quagmire. At the time of the ceremony, about 10,800 U.S. troops remained, a decrease of almost 90 percent from the surge of forces that he had sent to Afghanistan in his first term. Obama promised to withdraw the rest of the troops by the end of 2016, coinciding with the end of his term in office, save for a residual force at the U.S. Embassy.

1andrew1

17-08-2021 11:18

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36090037)

why didn't he not continue it then?

US public opinion favoured an exit I guess. Doesn't excuse it though.

---------- Post added at 10:07 ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36090035)

Yes, the government machinery and economy was in no state to function when we pulled out. All well and good providing weapons but you need a functioning state in place too after an occupation that can stand on its own too feet. We knew that in WW2.

---------- Post added at 10:18 ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 ----------

UK has a moral responsibility to rescue everyone in Afghanistan who assisted us and to take in its fair share of refugees resulting from the Taliban taking over. Nigel Farage may not like it but it's the least we can do.

The same applies to the other countries involved including of course the USA.

peanut

17-08-2021 11:23

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36090040)

UK has a moral responsibility to rescue everyone in Afghanistan who assisted us and to take in its fair share of refugees resulting from the Taliban taking over. Nigel Farage may not like it but it's the least we can do.

The same applies to the other countries involved including of course the USA.

One argument that was discussed on TV this morning is where will they go when we struggle to even look after our own.

1andrew1

17-08-2021 11:34

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36090044)

One argument that was discussed on TV this morning is where will they go when we struggle to even look after our own.

We made them our own by getting involved in the first place.

nomadking

17-08-2021 11:42

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36090040)

The Afghanistan occupation will definitely generate history books and case studies on how not to re-construct a country for many years to come.

---------- Post added at 10:04 ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 ----------

US public opinion favoured an exit I guess. Doesn't excuse it though.

---------- Post added at 10:07 ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 ----------

Yes, the government machinery and economy was in no state to function when we pulled out. All well and good providing weapons but you need a functioning state in place too after an occupation that can stand on its own too feet. We knew that in WW2.

---------- Post added at 10:18 ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 ----------

UK has a moral responsibility to rescue everyone in Afghanistan who assisted us and to take in its fair share of refugees resulting from the Taliban taking over. Nigel Farage may not like it but it's the least we can do.

The same applies to the other countries involved including of course the USA.

All 35 MILLION of them?
Here's an idea, why don't they remain there, get off their backsides and do something about it themselves.

jfman

17-08-2021 11:56

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36090047)

All 35 MILLION of them?
Here's an idea, why don't they remain there, get off their backsides and do something about it themselves.

Maybe they would if every 20 years or so we didn’t arm the other side to the teeth.

Carth

17-08-2021 11:59

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36090045)

We made them our own by getting involved in the first place.

You maybe did, I certainly didn't.

Some of us knew better than to get involved . . what was that quote about history and same mistakes or something?

:p:

Pierre

17-08-2021 12:00

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36090040)

UK has a moral responsibility to rescue everyone in Afghanistan who assisted us and to take in its fair share of refugees resulting from the Taliban taking over.

I don't think we do.

Damien

17-08-2021 12:02

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

We certainly have a moral responsibility to those who've helped us and are now at risk of death for doing so.

nomadking

17-08-2021 12:05

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Anybody would think that Afghanistan was the only place on the planet that a certain section of the World population insists on taking over chunks of the World.:rolleyes:

1andrew1

17-08-2021 13:20

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36090049)

You maybe did, I certainly didn't.

Some of us knew better than to get involved . . what was that quote about history and same mistakes or something?

:p:

The UK got involved regardless of whether we thought it was a bad idea or not.

jfman

17-08-2021 13:34

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Capitalism in action. Human lives are simply another commodity from which to extract usefulness before discarding. Especially the non-white ones.

On the plus side with their use of bribery, presumably using drug money, at least the Taliban are learning how to make effective use of their limited resources.

mrmistoffelees

17-08-2021 13:46

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36090044)

One argument that was discussed on TV this morning is where will they go when we struggle to even look after our own.

Do we struggle? Or, as an example. do we set policy, then choose not to help. unless a footballer gets involved and there's a public outcry ?

---------- Post added at 12:46 ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36090050)

I don't think we do.

Why don't we? we're partially responsible for mess the country finds itself in.

TheDaddy

17-08-2021 13:59

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36090061)

The UK got involved regardless of whether we thought it was a bad idea or not.

We were obligated to be involved, another NATO country was attacked, mind you that was back in the day when our word meant something

Carth

17-08-2021 14:03

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36090063)

Do we struggle? Or, as an example. do we set policy, then choose not to help. unless a footballer gets involved and there's a public outcry ?

Oh yes, we're struggling alright.

Social services, Elderly care & support, Health services, Housing, Education, Disability support, Mental health, Unemployment, Policing . . . just a few of the areas that don't have the resources needed.

And before people mention that these (or any) refugees will fill vacancies in key areas . . how are we going to pay them if we can't afford to recruit anyone now?

mrmistoffelees

17-08-2021 14:09

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36090069)

Pretty much all of those apart from unemployment are due to ‘austerity’ by central government.

I presume you havent seen today’s employment figures ?

nomadking

17-08-2021 14:17

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

And when in the past 1,000 years was Afghanistan peaceful?

1andrew1

17-08-2021 14:23

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36090069)

We're one of the richest countries in the world so there's no question of whether we can afford to fund these services. It's a question of whether we choose to.

papa smurf

17-08-2021 14:52

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36090075)

And when in the past 1,000 years was Afghanistan peaceful?

1933 to 1973

nomadking

17-08-2021 15:14

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36090084)

1933 to 1973

Under a single ruler(Mohammed Zahir Shah), who was prepared to quash the tribal revolts that occurred. The central point being, all the revolts, assassinations, etc had nothing to do with the "West", it was all their own doing. They didn't coexist peacefully. Sny "rebels" didn't have the numbers/firepower to overturn things. Nowadays they do.

Carth

17-08-2021 15:23

Re: Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36090073)

Pretty much all of those apart from unemployment are due to ‘austerity’ by central government.

I presume you havent seen today’s employment figures ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36090076)

We're one of the richest countries in the world so there's no question of whether we can afford to fund these services. It's a question of whether we choose to.

I guess you'd both like the coffers to open up and release a never ending stream of £Billions into the country then?

Let me be the first to congratulate you both on advising the Govt to borrow a fortune to send into a black hole with no discernible return. There's a reason for austerity measures . . . not that I'm going to mention bankruptcy (ooops I did) or the 40% tax hike on those who work for a living :D

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