Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

5 Confirmed dead 6 including the shooter.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Plymouth.html

---------- Post added at 22:00 ---------- Previous post was at 21:20 ----------

Very sad...... Im glad the shooter is also gone :(

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

A terribly sad day for our city.:(

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

Dreadful, and all the more shocking because these events are so rare here.

The Telegraph has done some background on the murderer - in time I suspect we will discover that there could, and probably should, have been some sort of mental healthcare intervention long before now.

This article looks like it’s not paywalled via Apple News: https://apple.news/AS26zSZ6sT6yl6npFS9ecRg

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

Apparently his parents are among the dead. He blames not being able to lose weight and attract a girlfriend as part reasons for the shooting, pathetic.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/plymouth-s...073537933.html

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

l saw the video the morning and although l am clearly no expert on mental illness to me he looked mentally very unstable and was rambling incoherently all the time.

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

It's early but these 'Red Pill/Black Pill movements' that target vulnerable and isolated young men on the Internet need to be looked at. It's a rabbit hole of YouTube videos, personalities and communities that draw them in and seem to radialise them.

I am not sure that's what happened here but he clearly tapped into that world somehow and we've seen it before in the U.S.

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

More to the point how did he happen to have a shotgun?

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

Shotguns and rifles can be legally owned in the UK, which means they are easier to come by. You have to have proper criminal connections to get hold of the sort of stuff regularly used in mass shootings in America: pistols, semi automatics and the like, because there is no legal means of owning one, so there are no country sports shops where you can buy one. I imagine most farms have a shotgun somewhere - one could be taken in a burglary and then sold by a man down the pub, or something similar. I imagine this person’s internet habits made it easier for him to find someone willing to sell.

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

In the report I heard on BBC TV it said he was a member of a gun club and held a gun licence.

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

Shotguns are relatively easy to get, once you pass the police checks, and have a lockable shotgun cabinet.

A guy I worked with had about 6, they were various types, used them for grouse hunting and on a farm for pest control, as well as belonging to a gun club

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

You are quite right as the Chief Constable in his press conference about a hour ago stated that he did hold a gun licence.

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

IF as reported it was a pump action shotgun that was used I’m pretty sure these are banned in the U.K. ?

IF mental health played a part (which initially it would appear that it does) then in due time there needs to be (and I’m sure there will be) an investigation into how the individual was allowed a firearms permit

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

Pump-action shotguns are indeed illegal, but if he was a gun club member then he is several steps closer to the sort of people who might know someone who knows someone.

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

Indeed, my knowledge of firearms licensing is fading as I’m no longer directly working with the police but I thought recertification and inspections were required on an annual basis. Not that this may have stopped events occurring.


YouTube have just announced they’ve terminated his account, a tad late me thinks:(

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

More details starting to come out tonight.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-58206101

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

He had his firearms licence revoked in December but it was reinstated last month after he attended an anger management course.

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

You dont generally need a firearms licence for a Shotgun, you need a shotgun licence, they are not the same thing.

Pump action shotguns (and semi automatic ones) are not illegal.
On a shotgun licence they are restricted to holding 3 rounds maximum.
Shotguns with a greater capacity than 3 must be held on a Section 1 Firearms Certificate.

(which is what it sounds like he held).

Yes they usually happen here in the US where most people are so gun happy!

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

This case seems to underline the fact that our gun laws are not fit for purpose.Also that the oversight needs beefing up a hell of a lot.

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

There are many legitimate reasons for having a shotgun or a rifle. We already have some of the toughest firearms restrictions in the democratic world and tightening them further would be grossly disproportionate. The fact that we only get an incident like this on a decadal basis rather proves that by and large, the laws we have do work.

The vast majority of firearms deaths in this country are not caused by legally held guns in the hands of unfit people; they are overwhelmingly caused by illegally held guns used by criminals to kill other criminals (which is of course not a reason to let them get on with it).

There has been a very unfortunate confluence in this case of a licensed shotgun and some of the darker nonsense that interests angry, lonely young men on the internet. Our focus here should be on combating these online quasi-cults and in providing mental healthcare.

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

Having read up a bit more about the group this person relates to that is incels I think that we need to stop allowing them to spread their hatred of women and their extremist views that could almost be described as terrorism against women and anyone they regard as preventing them from having their god given right to have sex with any woman of their choice.

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

I think you’ve missed a point here and that’s the issue & retraction of fire arms permits.

Try getting life insurance if you’ve suffered a mental health condition such as depression (even if it was ten years ago) and you’ll find the prices exorbitant.

However, a firearms permit can be returned after attending an anger management course ?

There’s an imbalance here that needs to be addressed. To my mind by all means own a firearm if required but it should be a one strike and your permit is revoked

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

I agree - however (and Maggy please correct me if I’ve misread you) when discussion turns to laws “not fit for purpose” it tends to be code for banning stuff, especially in this case where Maggy identified “oversight” as a distinct issue.

The way the licensing and supervision works does indeed require serious attention, however I’m not convinced that one crime of this nature per decade demonstrates that the availability of shotguns in the general population is a problem.

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

Oversight needs to be much more rigorous but unfortunately we still don't have a police force that is back up to previous numbers but are expected to perform as if they had those missing numbers of personnel.This young man should NEVER have got his licence back on at this point in time if they had truly been aware of his online activities.

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

It seems in this case that they weren’t aware of that stuff. His license was confiscated because of an allegation of assault which ultimately didn’t result in a trial or a conviction.

“Police gave him his gun back” is making for lurid headlines this morning but based on what we know so far they may not have had any reason to keep withholding it.

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

AIUI, Incels (Involuntary Celibate) men resent not being able to get a girlfriend & have sex. As a result, they target women and men in stable long standing relationships.

It seems to be borne out of jealousy, but sex is pretty easy to obtain, even if it's with a woman who isn't too fussy with who she goes with, has multiple partners or wants money for agreeing to it.

Finding a decent long term partner is the hard part, not obtaining sex.

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

Great point.

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

Spot on.

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

It might have been spot on if you actually read all of it ;
If they did not (and there is no evidence atm they did) then it appears they had no reason not to.

As usual, the hysteria about gun ownership runs riot, when the reality is we have about the toughest laws in the world, and legally owned gun crime is incredibly rare.

If as much hysteria was directed at illegally owned guns, it would stop a lot more.

Yea it would Paul but I dont think we could ever hope to get rid of all guns.... They will get them if they really want them...

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

Part of the problem is society showing that sex is the be all and end all of relationships. Look at media that belittles celibacy and ridicules chastity.

If we feed the idea that sex is what’s needed and missing it is abnormal why so surprised when those who are unable to achieve that “goal” become disenchanted. Not to excuse expressing that disenchantment in this manner but society has created the situation and now has to deal with it.

Maybe we need to teach our kids that remaining celibate is a good thing. And the media shouldn’t mock those who are celibate but celebrate with those that choose that way and support those finding it difficult.

Celebrate celibacy!

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

Can you point out any examples where the media has mocked those who are celibate, or where media "belittles celibacy and ridicules chastity", please?

The only things that spring to mind is where the media reported on those supposedly celibate priests who molested children, and that’s highlighting criminal acts and abuses of power, not mockery.

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Haven't some celebrities been mocked for "self-partnering" Wasn't one Emma Watson?

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

Being single is not the same as being celibate…

https://www.vogue.co.uk/news/article...m-little-womenAnd it was Piers Morgan, so…

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

Ummmm..... if everyone remained celibate, the human race would cease to exist :erm:

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

:D:D:D

Re: Multiple fatalities in Plymouth
 

Because of the "incels" term used, this attack could be changed to a terrorist attack.