Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

I cannot watch BBC news ATM all they are banging on about is how the police handled the gathering in Clapham Common.


Oh! They did go on about the heavy-handed police but didn't mention that it was an illegal gathering, and as such they should NOT have been there.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

It really wasn’t that clear cut.

An official vigil was planned and the organisers went to the high court when the police threatened to shut it down. The judge refused to rule on it and told the police and the organisers to sort it out amongst themselves. That’s when it went sideways - instead of accepting the judge’s recommendation to collaborate the Met dug its heels in and started threatening the organisers with £10,000 fines. They had no choice but to cancel the official event at that point, however by now it was so late in the day a lot of people had firm plans to be there anyway. So instead of an orderly event with stewards provided by the organisers the Met was left to deal with a disorganised crowd.

The Met’s response was cack-handed in the extreme and also inconsistent with its approach to other recent events in the capital. Other police forces around the UK were waiting for the Met to take the lead on this before deciding how to proceed but seem to have been so frustrated at its mule-headedness they generally just allowed protests in other cities to go ahead, with only light-touch policing where necessary.

I don’t know how high up the chain of command this went, but whichever idiot decided to continue threatening the organisers with maximum fines even after the judge advised them to collaborate, really needs a sound kicking. A stewarded event with civilians in high vis would have been a completely different prospect.

Re: Coronavirus
 

And how would an "orderly" event have been any different. It would've have been even larger number and even more disorganised and aggressive by the protestors. Define "recent events" that weren't under different rules? Eg Piers Corbyn has been arrested several times.

Re: Coronavirus
 

No. You first define - or rather, prove - your assertion that an orderly event would have been even more disorganised and aggressive. Please and thank you.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Bottom Line

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national...t-home#history

Feel free to read the whole page, let me know in which section it says it was a 'reasonable excuse' and therefore allowed.

Re: Coronavirus
 

As I posted this morning, a high court judge refused to rule on whether an event per se was a reasonable excuse or not. He asked the organisers and the police to agree together, a reasonable way forwards. The wording “reasonable excuse” in law is used precisely to provide leeway in unusual circumstances and to avoid criminalising behaviour unless it’s absolutely necessary to do so.

It was the police’s attempt to continue to pursue absolute prohibition that allowed things to get out of control. The organisers had dozens of crowd marshalls ready to assist, but they couldn’t do anything because the police threatened them with maximum fines as event organisers.

Re: Coronavirus
 

As long as the law is applied equally...

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yes I read that about the Judge Chris, but that just implies to me that the Judge made a weak decision - laying responsibility onto others instead of himself.

Quite why the women wanted to have a vigil/protest (whatever) during lock down, to highlight and bring attention to something that was already filling up every type of media outlet is beyond me (probably because I'm male? ).

They knew the rules regarding lock down as well as anybody else.


edit: no idea what that means Hugh

Re: Coronavirus
 

Actually the judge demonstrated perfectly why the question you asked has no straightforward answer - and that the law intends that to be the case. There is meant to be room for compromise here. The Metropolitan Police seems to have missed that, and made no attempt to engage after the judge explicitly stated that they ought to.

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

ahh OK Chris, thanks for clearing it up that it's the police at fault then ;)

but seriously, we've seen media frenzy when the police don't do their job, when the do their job but are racist, when they drag their heels on their job, when they rush their job, when they want to do their job but have their hands tied, etc etc

There are complaints because there aren't enough women/multicultural/disabled in the force, that they're corrupt, that they protect their own etc.

Seems to me that anyone who wants to be in the force in the circumstances must be a complete nutter . . they would be better off staying unemployed and running a drugs ring from home :p:

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

If someone throws a punch, then that's the fault of the person who threw the punch. If a crowd whose presence was anticipated is poorly managed so that tempers flare, then that's the fault of those whose job is to manage crowds. There is evidence here of poor forward planning for an event that was not obviously disallowed under covid regulations.

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

The fact the police said yes and then no to the vigil, suggests someone high up said it couldn't go ahead because of Covid restrictions.

I get the message about women wanting to feel safe walking the streets at night, not just in London but everywhere. However, if people attending a mass rally, holding candles and standing shoulder to shoulder in solidarity, you know, the usual emotional fluff, is going to stop a sadistic and predatory murderous person, now and in the future, then they need to have their heads examined and certainly, those idiots holding signs saying abolish the police, won't help either.

That said, I am critical at the inconsistency of police action or inaction at certain protest events during lockdowns. Last week, Rangers fans were able to celebrate their victory, Black Lives Matter protests occurred, unimpeded by police.

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

Agree with much (if not all) of that. Inconsistencies all over the place and it makes you wonder what the criteria is to allow some things and not others.
Front line plod must be confused to heck when told they can't do today what they did yesterday and vice versa . . poor buggers end up with all the crap

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

In these pandemic times people need to use their brains. I have no problem with people wanting to pay respects to someone who has died...BUT.... They need to either do it virtually, or do it alone.

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

I'm more concerned with the narrative and themes being pushed. especially the Meme that has the sentence "protect your daughter" crossed out and replaced with "educate your sons" it was also visible at the vigil.

I educate my sons not to murder anyone, not just women, that's pretty much taken as read. I teach my sons not to hit women and treat them with respect, and to have self respect. I would say any parent would do that.

There will be situation were boys are in abusive households and witness domestic violence - there is no guarantee they will grow up to emulate that. I was one such boy and I saw my father hit my mother and vice versa, many times. Even witnessed by mother attack my father with a kitchen knife. Never once have I ever laid hands on women, and never would.

the hashtag #not all men has been rubbished, akin to #alllivesmatter as men not getting the point.

Considering that twice as many men are murdered than women, by men and that men are far more likely to be randomly murdered, by a massive % by a man they have never met before. Perhaps men should be holding a vigil to end violence against men by men?

I would suggest that you can educate your sons as much as you want, but if they grow up to be a murdering psychopath that's probably more to do with their mental make up rather that their education.

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

I'm annoyed at the dick that sent them in, if the dick worked for me she would be bouncing down the car park on her bony arse on the way to the jobcentre.

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

I think there is a difference here though in that we're talking about two types of crime that are quite specific. I.E Sexual assault and domestic violence.

With men killing men it's often due to a multitude of reasons. One of them is knife crime and there are campaigns against that and occasionally protests. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47965184

You walk around some areas of London and you'll see special bins into which knives can be deposited and you'll see charity workers trying to raise money for anti-knife crime charities.

So there are efforts to stop men murdering men but that category is so broad that they're focusing on specific causes.

I think the 'educate your sons' is less about the obvious thing of not committing an assault or murdering someone and more about behaviour that isn't violence, maybe not even technically a crime, but adds to the threat women feel in the street such as catcalling, bothering random women for a phone number on the street or otherwise being a bit of a creep.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Same people would have been there, in ADDITION to others.
They had the option to leave peacefully, but they chose otherwise.

Perhaps they would prefer fewer male teachers at primary level, and fewer fathers present.
Oops, they've done that. How did that work out?

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

Don't get me wrong, I believe we have a right to protest.


I was outside Parliament in late 2019 with loads of leavers, it was peaceful, yes a few people did block the street and stop traffic and were moved on (I don't know if anyone was arrested).


But there was no pandemic.


As a Son, Brother and Uncle I believe that EVERYONE should be able to walk down the street safely and not just women, but many chose to respect the law and light a candle in their window and stay safe.


But we know that people will go to places like this just to cause trouble, and if you chose to ignore the police when told to leave, then you must pay the price and have nobody to blame but yourself.


Many times in the last year have I needed to see family and my mum before she did, but the law said no, so I stayed and home and suffer by myself (Yes I do live with dad), but I do sometimes feel very lonely.

---------- Post added at 19:48 ---------- Previous post was at 19:44 ----------

Another Illegal gathering, but will the BBC use the word Illegal? I think not.


https://news.sky.com/story/sarah-eve...calls-12246564

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

I am all for protesting against domestic violence, having witnessed it first hand. This was afaik not domestic violence, we are yet to be told the motive. It may or may not have been sexually motivated, we don’t know yet.

Of course I’m all against intimidating women and girls and creepy behaviour etc, but in regards to how young men/boys and young women/girls interact and behave a wider discussion is needed in the round. I of course will have a discussion with my boys about “no means no” etc, but it will probably be more around don’t get yourself into a stupid situation with a girl.

Demonising boys is not the way forward, and I’m. It saying everybody is, but some of the rhetoric around this is very disturbing.

---------- Post added at 20:09 ---------- Previous post was at 19:56 ----------

Do you have the link to that NK.

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

Link to what exactly?
Erin Pizzey, champion of women's rights, says radical feminist plans to let victims of domestic abuse get away with murder are an affront to morality

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

The link to the article you quoted from, which you have just given me. Thank you.

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

I note the article is over 12 years' old!

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

How is stabbing somebody 22 times, anything but attempted murder?:confused:

Link

If he had been killed, it's much more likely there would've been a vigil for her, than for him.

---------- Post added at 21:53 ---------- Previous post was at 21:51 ----------

So what? Doesn't change the fact, that a large number of women are also violent.

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

Can you please define 'large' in this context.

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

Why didn't they just hold the vigil at a later date when it would have been legal? Why does a vigil have to be immediate? It's not like Sarah would have minded and would have liked her memory and passing be even more sensational. the whole issue lent no dignity to her passing.

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

Show a bit of respect, Dame Dick...

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

The whole thing is entirely the fault of the idiots that turned up.

If they had stayed at home, like they should have, it would have been a complete non event.

What was the point - what would it have (or did it) actually achieve ?
The answer is basically nothing, no killer is going to stop because of some silly gathering in London.

Some woman was quoted as saying all they wanted to do is stand with other women.
Well guess what, we'd all like to stand with our families & friends, and go out - but atm, we cant, thats the rules. Suck it up.

Seems like another example of the stupidity of people who cant think for themselves anymore, just sheep doing what the latest [anti] social media fad tells them.

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

I think after these events Lame Duck is going to be more appropriate.

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

Feminist mouth piece on R4 tis morning:

"I know that if I meet any man in his 30's that he will have at some point in his life behaved inappropriately towards a woman"

went totally unchallenged by the presenter. Here's the narrative, all men are dangerous , not a matter of if, but when, they will attack a woman.

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

It's worse than you portray.

She's probably right because at some point they redefined harassment to include almost any unwanted attention.

I've never once met anyone in a pub or nightclub whose opening line was "I'm thinking of chatting you up". So as soon as that has commenced and not reciprocated it's unwanted attention. Whether you take the hint after 30 seconds or 30 minutes it's unwanted.

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

Is their ultimate aim the end of the human race?

Why are these acts of civil disobedience referred to as vigils?

They are protests pure and simple and a chance to stick two fingers up to authority. :rolleyes:

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

They are a way of channeling grief and frustration. A couple of generations ago this sort of thing would have been formally channelled via organised religion - the Church of England for the most part, though other denominations, like the Methodists, were very good at channelling energy for social action. I'll spare you a sociology/theology essay but suffice it to say, our society is presently in flux because there is no broadly agreed way of dealing with the feelings these sorts of tragedies throw up. Until there is, conflict like this is inevitable.

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

It looks like the police response really was not appropriate, if they needed to they could have monitored the event, collected evidence and then dealt with any activity like breaking covid restrictions as needed.


It's also leading to more powers to the "officials" to declare a gathering illegal and prosecute those involved. Want to protest? Better do it quietly then. I went on a number of the "March for Jesus" events in the 80's and 90's. All properly organised and all very noisy and being a march stretching for some distance with the larger ones. Wonder if "noise issues" would prevent them happening now? Likely wouldn't get the go ahead because it's anti-something that we are not allowed to be anti.

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

Did I actually here correctly that some woman group called for a 6pm on all men?

If so lets look at that.
How many businesses would be closed, like retail nightclubs, oh yeah and A&Es would have a very limited function.

Plus this world be illegal as it would discriminate.

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

Some Baroness who's name I forget first mooted this.

Imagine the outcry if it had been suggested that all women had to stay in after 6pm.

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/g...d-b923587.html



https://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news...ot-fit-govern/


https://www.thenational.scot/news/19...omen-murdered/

Re: Sarah Everard Vigil and the Met Police
 

Or there’s this example from Adrian Chiles

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/143507...just-standard/

Re: Coronavirus
 

Precisely. It *could* be argued that protesting to make things safer for a large percentage of the problem *is* a reasonable excuse to leave the house. Especially bearing in mind there is evidence that the Black Lives Matter protests in the summer had little effect on the Covid figures. https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/24/black...ases-12899049/

Now, the Police were there to enforce the law. Fair enough. They are employed to do that. That does not mean the law is a good one. I'm not a lawyer, but from what I have read, there are a lot of laws our government has passed in the name of Covid that are at best dubious, and at worst, potentially illegal.

Beyond the fact that a large section of the population actually feels that we as a society are not doing nearly enough to protect them (which is a terrible reflection on us), what worries me about this is the government talking about making it an offence to cause a disturbance in a protest. Depending on how this is implemented, this could effectively remove our right to protest peacefully.

Let me explain that. While it is annoying to have to have a protest block roads or train tracks, or close off a major landmark, those protests tend to be the ones that have the most impact. Remember the BLM protests? Yes, they were annoying, but they got people talking about Racism, and started a dialog that will hopefully improve things. The Extinction Rebellion protest? Got people talking about Climate Change. Much as I think they are a good thing, how many online petitions have had a similar impact? Not saying protest needs to cause inconvenience to have an impact, but it can help.

Going back to this protest, I think the Met could have handled this a lot better. They gave permission, then withdraw it two days before the protest. Then it sounds like they went in very heavy handed against a bunch of women. At the very least that's not a good look considering the protest was triggered by a Metropolitan Police officer allegedly killing an innocent woman and hiding her body. Note: I say allegedly because at the time of writing, he has been charged, but not yet convicted.