Cable Forum - [Updated] HS2 gets the green light

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Chris

31-01-2020 08:59

[Updated] HS2 gets the green light

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51319261

Quote:

However, it strongly advises against cancelling it, saying HS2 would benefit the UK transport system and that there were no "shovel-ready" alternative upgrades to existing railways.
The review also says calls for just one section of the railway to be built to control costs would not be value for money.
And it says scrapping the scheme would have a detrimental impact on the UK's "fragile" construction industry.

Looks like it’s going ahead, although the Beeb says el gov won’t decide until next month.

I think if they’re serious about improving northern connections they should be beginning HS3 right now.

jonbxx

31-01-2020 10:23

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

I saw an interesting Twitter thread on the costs of HS2 this morning - https://twitter.com/RAIL/status/1222812020896141314

That is some crazy procurement process!

HS2 will run close to where I live and it's about as popular as a cup of cold sick around here

papa smurf

31-01-2020 10:32

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Can't see how it will improve travel to and from Cleethorpes, therefore it's not worth doing.
Once it gets to Birmingham it will be canned due to un-affordable cost ,if it was in any way designed to help the north it would start in the north.

tweetiepooh

31-01-2020 10:53

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

What would be the point of starting in the north? You could travel from one "poor" spot to another quickly.
One of the ideas is to move people out of London and the South East. Once there is an easy, fast commute from Brum maybe some companies/departments would move there, then you expand out further.
But like lots of large infrastructure projects the UK is quite small, you can't do the thing without badly disrupting people "in the way". This can be less of an issue in larger countries where it's
1)Easier to build around people
2)Anything to improve connectivity is welcome for the large distances covered.

papa smurf

31-01-2020 10:56

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh (Post 36024011)

What would be the point of starting in the north? You could travel from one "poor" spot to another quickly.
One of the ideas is to move people out of London and the South East. Once there is an easy, fast commute from Brum maybe some companies/departments would move there, then you expand out further.
But like lots of large infrastructure projects the UK is quite small, you can't do the thing without badly disrupting people "in the way". This can be less of an issue in larger countries where it's
1)Easier to build around people
2)Anything to improve connectivity is welcome for the large distances covered.

That's the attitude the north always gets.

Scrap it I've heard enough.

nomadking

31-01-2020 10:56

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36024009)

But then what could improve travel to/from Cleethorpes?

HS2 isn't just about London to Birmingham. It's also about relieving the pressure on the other destinations on the current routes between those 2 places. All the passengers that travel between London and Birmingham would no longer affect London/Birmingham to Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, etc.

It all depends on the level of demand for direct routes, London-Birmingham, Birmingham-Manchester, etc.

Damien

31-01-2020 11:11

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Good, just build it now. Idiots.

tweetiepooh

31-01-2020 11:12

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Well I know that there are people in and around Birmingham looking forward to seeing their property prices soar on HS2 service starting.

And those other places, true it may help them but London is the centre of the universe (according to London). It's all about helping people who work in London be able to move to somewhere else but still be close to London.

papa smurf

31-01-2020 11:13

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36024013)

But then what could improve travel to/from Cleethorpes?

HS2 isn't just about London to Birmingham. It's also about relieving the pressure on the other destinations on the current routes between those 2 places. All the passengers that travel between London and Birmingham would no longer affect London/Birmingham to Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, etc.

It all depends on the level of demand for direct routes, London-Birmingham, Birmingham-Manchester, etc.

investment in local services all over the UK,not a line that gets a few people to London 15 mins quicker.

heero_yuy

31-01-2020 11:18

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

It would be cheaper to move Cleethorpes closer to London. :erm:

papa smurf

31-01-2020 11:28

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36024018)

It would be cheaper to move Cleethorpes closer to London. :erm:

That's a lot of sand to lug around.

nomadking

31-01-2020 11:30

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36024017)

investment in local services all over the UK,not a line that gets a few people to London 15 mins quicker.

It's not about speed. Any faster journey times are merely a consequence of new tracks and their routes. Most routes would improve in speed if you could build from scratch and have a choice of path for the route.

Link

Quote:

By freeing up space on existing lines, for new local train services, passengers and freight, HS2 helps ease congestion and over-crowding. Travelling by train becomes a more convenient and enjoyable option for everybody, regardless of how far they’re going.
The West Coast Main Line is Europe’s busiest mixed-use railway, accommodating fast inter-city services, stopping commuter trains and freight. By putting high speed services on a dedicated line, HS2 will allow more trains and fewer delays along this route. Freight transport will also benefit from this.

How often do local services currently have to stop and let a faster inter-city service go by?

Mr K	31-01-2020 12:26

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36024012)

That's the attitude the north always gets.

Scrap it I've heard enough.

Me too. Sometimes I think the poster in question is out to deliberately provoke for some reason.

Pierre

31-01-2020 13:48

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh (Post 36024011)

What would be the point of starting in the north? You could travel from one "poor" spot to another quickly.
One of the ideas is to move people out of London and the South East. Once there is an easy, fast commute from Brum maybe some companies/departments would move there, then you expand out further.
.

Yes, we're all destitute up here, everyone on the breadline, queuing in food banks, dressed in rags............

While everyone South of Watford Gap all eat cake.

nomadking

31-01-2020 14:28

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Transportation doesn't yet(although give it time) on a quota system. You don't turn up and get sent to Cleethorpes(or wherever) because not enough people have gone there this week.

North of Watford Gap has it's own separate rail proposals, Northern Powerhouse and Midlands Engine. In that sense more northern areas are benefiting.

Quote:

HS2 will directly serve: Birmingham Curzon Street, Carlisle, Chesterfield, Crewe, Darlington, Durham East Midlands Hub (Toton), Edinburgh, Glasgow, Interchange (Solihull), Lancaster, Leeds, Liverpool, Lockerbie, London Euston, Manchester Airport, Manchester Piccadilly, Newcastle, Old Oak Common, Oxenholme, Penrith, Preston, Runcorn, Sheffield Midland, Stafford, Warrington, Wigan and York.

London is the only listed place south of Watford Gap.

Paul	31-01-2020 15:24

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

You could greatly improve the road system for £100bn ... even build that fabled east coast motorway.

Hugh	31-01-2020 15:50

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36024028)

Thameslink, Crossrail, East West Rail, and Crossrail2 are fairly major infrastructure projects...

Thameslink - Thameslink Programme is an ambitious 10-year programme of extensive infrastructure enhancements and the delivery of 115 new trains that will bring faster, more frequent, more reliable, better connected journeys for passengers – transforming north-south travel through London.

Crossrail - The Elizabeth line will link Reading and Heathrow in the west with Shenfield and Abbey Wood in the east, via new 21km tunnels under central London

Crossrail2 - A number of options are being considered for Crossrail 2. These include a major new tunnel across London from Wimbledon to Alexandra Palace, with an option to connect to existing rail networks between south west and north east London. This would create routes from stations such as Kingston and Surbiton through central London to Tottenham Hale and beyond. Crossrail 2 would serve London Victoria station and the proposed new high-speed terminal at London Euston.

East West Rail - The East West Rail scheme will re-establish a rail link between Cambridge and Oxford to improve connections between East Anglia and central, southern and western England.

nomadking

31-01-2020 16:00

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36024039)

The East-West Rail scheme is completely new. It highlights there isn't much connection between those areas at the moment. To travel from Oxford to Cambridge by train you would probably have to go via London. Other routes involving Coventry might be possible.

The HS2 system is about longer journeys. In the London area there is a huge demand for local commuter travel. That needs addressing. It's not spending just for the sake of spending. The demand is undeniably there.

papa smurf

31-01-2020 16:22

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36024032)

You could greatly improve the road system for £100bn ... even build that fabled east coast motorway.

That would get my vote,Lincolnshire is tractor central and full of trucks doing 40mph.

Stuart

31-01-2020 17:16

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36024017)

investment in local services all over the UK,not a line that gets a few people to London 15 mins quicker.

This is essentially what a comedian on the BBC's The News Quiz said. He said yes HS2 would get people to the North faster, but that's not the problem. It's getting around the North using public transport that is.

I don't have extensive experience of the public transport around the UK, but I've got family in the Midlands and the North. Whenever I visit them, I find it noticeably harder to get public transport to actually get to them (I can't drive), and usually end up getting a cab. Get off the train near most London stations and it's likely the longest you'll have to wait for a bus is 20 minutes.

Obviously, I haven't seen all the figures for HS2, but from what I have seen, I don't think the scheme has been justified. Maybe it will help by reducing congestion on existing tracks and services. I actually think it's likely because whenever I've been to chester, if the service goes via Birmingham, a lot of people get on or off..

Chris

10-02-2020 23:39

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

HS2 to be built in its entirety, Boris to announce

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51443421

Maggy

11-02-2020 10:05

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Anyone want to open a book on how much the costs and timeline will soar?

denphone

11-02-2020 10:13

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36024619)

Anyone want to open a book on how much the costs and timeline will soar?

l will open a book as there is good money to be had.;)

papa smurf

11-02-2020 10:14

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36024619)

Anyone want to open a book on how much the costs and timeline will soar?

The cost will double,as for time,how long is a piece of string?

---------- Post added at 09:14 ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36024622)

l will open a book as there is good money to be had.;)

Good money thrown away with this folly:(

Mr K	11-02-2020 11:16

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

chronic waste of money that could cripple this country for decades. So many better uses, social care, the NHS, foodbanks, the crumbling branch lines in the North, flood and coastal defence. Seems more like a trophy piece, for a spoilt rich boys train set.

Pierre

11-02-2020 17:44

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36024629)

chronic waste of money that could cripple this country for decades. So many better uses

Quote:

social care,

personal and family responsibility.

Quote:

the NHS

bottomless pit that needs reform, you could put in the amount HS2 would cost every year and it would still need more the way is it currently run.

Quote:

foodbanks,

. Jobs, and investment creating more jobs. Investment in Birmingham was already on the up. Certainty will now accelerate that. People need jobs not handouts.

Quote:

the crumbling branch lines in the North

is part of the deal.

Quote:

flood and coastal defence.

already been 30million spent in the Calder Valley and that did great at the weekend. This whole area needs a rethink.

Quote:

Seems more like a trophy piece, for a spoilt rich boys train set.

It seems to a Labour way of thinking to invest in large capital projects that improve the nations connectivity.

Quote:

At this time, there was general political support for new motorways, although there were occasional protests about individual schemes. This situation continued into the 1970s (Figure 14), by which time the Labour Party, initially in London and subsequently nationally, became increasingly hostile to major road schemes.

https://trl.co.uk/sites/default/file...0go%20next.pdf

Paul	11-02-2020 19:23

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Government pledges £5bn for bus services and cycling routes.

Great, more money wasted on schemes to delay everyone. :rolleyes:

Improve the bloody roads you muppets. :dozey:

Damien

11-02-2020 19:35

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Buses are important for people who can't drive.

denphone

11-02-2020 20:46

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36024651)

Buses are important for people who can't drive.

And quite a few services have been cut these past few years.

Pierre

11-02-2020 22:28

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36024032)

You could greatly improve the road system for £100bn ... even build that fabled east coast motorway.

Isn’t that the A1?

Apart from a few small sections when you get to Alnwick and Berwick, it’s all Dual Carriageway. And they made it proper motorway from Leeds to Scotch Corner, plus remove all the roundabouts.

I don’t think there can be many complaints on the investment on the A1.

Paul	12-02-2020 04:46

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36024651)

Buses are important for people who can't drive.

Roads are important for people who can drive.

Hugh	12-02-2020 10:12

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36024679)

Roads are important for people who can drive.

About half the population have a driving licence, and about 74% of those above 17 have a full licence.

Some interesting stats here - https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures....icences/latest

1andrew1

12-02-2020 12:02

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36024008)

Yes, I've seen that too. It's added £20bn to the cost unnecessarily. To its credit, The Spectator got the author to write it up for them as well. I note BoJo criticised HS2 for the cost over-runs rather than the civil service procurement.

---------- Post added at 11:02 ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36024041)

East-West scheme is 90% reinstating a line that was closed in the 1960s, although the Bedford to Cambridge section may contain new sections. Oxford to Bicester has already been resinstated. https://eastwestrail.co.uk/the-project

The HS2 announcements yesterday all seemed logical. Euston seems an issue so a good idea to look at it separately. Connecting HS2 it into Northern Powerhouse Raul/HS3 is needed.

I expect the bit about bringing forward the Birmingham to Crewe section is essentially political to show people in the new Conservative seats that something is actually happening.

Paul	13-02-2020 13:20

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36024661)

Isn’t that the A1?

Nope, definitely not.
The A1 may end up near the east coast north of Darlington, but not in the south or midlands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36024661)

I don’t think there can be many complaints on the investment on the A1.

No complaints here, even though i'll rarely use the A1.

papa smurf

13-02-2020 13:31

Re: Review “strongly advises” not to can HS2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36024752)

Nope, definitely not.
The A1 may end up near the east coast north of Darlington, but not in the south or midlands.

No complaints here, even though i'll rarely use the A1.

It's no where near cleethorpes 62 miles away if memory serves.

Chris

15-02-2020 12:50

Re: [Updated] HS2 gets the green light

Totalitarian government says it could build HS2 in a fraction of the time and cost ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51512831

:rofl:

Carth

15-02-2020 13:26

Re: [Updated] HS2 gets the green light

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36024876)

Totalitarian government says it could build HS2 in a fraction of the time and cost ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51512831

:rofl:

I think it's a great idea.

They could build everything out there using top quality materials, then ship it to us in kit form via Amazon.

Only snag might be if they don't answer the emails asking why the parts don't fit together :D

Chris

15-02-2020 13:46

Re: [Updated] HS2 gets the green light

The bigger problem would be when they discover they can’t deal with an eco-protest camp by just opening fire.

papa smurf

15-02-2020 14:33

Re: [Updated] HS2 gets the green light

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36024879)

The bigger problem would be when they discover they can’t deal with an eco-protest camp by just opening fire.

We could put it to a vote then shoot them :shrug:

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