Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

16 and 17-year-olds, plus 33,000 foreign nationals, will be able to vote in the 2021 Welsh Assembly election.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-50561883

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

A new Govt. will take a 16 year old, up to the age of 21. Arguably the most important time of their lives? Why shouldn't they have a say? Give them a bit of credit, they are your future.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Of course they should be able to vote at 16 as its pretty condescending to say they don't know enough to be able to come to a informed decision before they vote.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Seph answered your question in his last post. Young people still in full time education have little experience of the world and have an idealistic sense of the world. They also tend to believe what their left-wing teachers tell them.

You are expecting them to vote when they have only very recently woken up to politics and what is happening around the world.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Labour was the driving force behind this, backed by the Welsh nationalists. Desperate for votes I suspect.

Not so long ago they argued that a jihadi bride should be allowed to return to the UK as she probably did not understand what she was doing at age 16 when she left. But she understands enough to vote?

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

She'll understand enough to vote Labour the terrorists best friend.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Exactly, look at Stanley Johnson, so old and wise he got on TV and told the British public just what idiots they are!

Quote:

Maybe a youth Parliament with one elected representative to the Welsh assembly? But votes at 16 is a ridiculous proposition - I fear that it will take hold in the UK. Next it’ll be they can be MPs, too young to buy alcohol, too young to drive but allowed to legislate there on. Quite ridiculous.

Old enough to pay tax.

At least you’ve been honest enough that when you were young you were more left wing/less right wing, so merely see it as a function to gerrymander election results by restricting the franchise.

The real fear of course is that 16-17 year olds vote for their economic interests much like pensioners do.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

I remember being potentially liable for tax when I was just 14 years old(Summer holiday job).

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Potentially.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Personally I'd raise the voting age to 21. Along with Drinking, smoking, gambling.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Wouldn't have reached the tax allowance. I was still "assessed".

Child showbiz stars must pay tax. Don't know how it works nowadays, but back then it was added to a parents tax. My father had to declare it.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Here's the Conservative case for extending the vote to 16 and 17 year olds - https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/...-at-16-and-17/

In a worst case, with the voting age being 18, you could be essentially disenfranchised until you are nearly 23 under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act. In this time, you could have been working for 6 years or studied for A Levels, got a Degree and be 2/3 of the way through a Ph.D. at the other end of things.

I would suggest that the years from 16 to 23 years old are some of the years that will have the largest impact on your life. There are other life events of course but those years are certainly up there and the breadth of opportunity is never wider than at this point. Not being able to have an influence in how the country is run seems unfair to me.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Indeed, a sixteen year old can choose to defend their country, yet is denied a voice in how that country should be run.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

They can't fight on the front line until they are adults,and that is aged 18.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

I know, but you don't have to be on a front line to be at risk. Although of course the risk increases significantly.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

What do they do that puts them at risk?

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

I dont know off hand, but I'm sure there are some... even the training they would undertake puts them at a degree of risk both physically and mentally?


'Thanks very much for your service you're grown up enough for that, but not to decide who should run our country' ?

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Nor to fight for it.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

If the government . . whoever that turns out to be . . gives 16yr olds the vote, then they'd better start treating them as adults and pay them the benefits they currently aren't allowed until they reach 18.

I'm sure there will be more age related anomalies, but this one is a starter.


edit: oh, and stop giving them anonymity in court too

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

OK, so service to country isn't enough?
Paying tax isn't enough?

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Would be a different story if they had a greater propensity to vote Conservative.

The generation who have squandered this countries wealth for the last 40 years want to pull up the drawbridge and cling onto this failed model for their lives.

Adding more younger voters who can see the obvious disparities in the system would go against that.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

They are kids who are providing service to their country. Additionally they are paying taxes into this country that are then spent by people who they have no choice in selecting.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

I think the voting age should be lowered to 16. I don't think the arguments about their lack of knowledge are convincing because we don't apply a mental capacity test before people are entitled to vote. People at 18 don't become suddenly able to make an informed judgment and neither are all adults making an 'informed' decision. People vote for all sorts of reasons and it's a bad path to go down for others to decide if those reasons are valid or not.

They are deemed wise enough to be tried as an adult for crimes, to join (if not fight) the army and to pay taxes. If we think they are able to make these decisions for themselves and to pay for the services the government provides then they should be able to vote.

In the end voting is a right, not a privilege, and so you need a very good reason to deny people that right.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

They don't suddenly become more knowledgeable and mature at 16. Children can be in a situation where they pay tax, then again if you're going to use that argument, what happens to those who don't pay tax, or incorrectly declare it(eg Jeremy Corbyn).

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Fair enough, then exclude anyone under the age of eighteen from paying tax ? and don't allow them to enlist in the armed forces.


Sound reasonable?

---------- Post added at 15:00 ---------- Previous post was at 14:59 ----------

As with everything there's balance required. there will be a proportion of sixteen year olds with a lot wiser heads then those over the age of eighteen.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

The post of the last few weeks need l say more..:tu:

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

It’s an arbitrary line at 16 just as much as it is 18. People go on about “world wisdom” achieved by 16 and 17 year olds without any real evidence for it.

Why don’t we restrict the franchise to the well educated? Property owners? Landed gentry? They’re all obviously ridiculous ideas. However so is the notion that someone is so much wiser simply because they are older.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

One could equally argue that the media coverage of many issues indicates just how impressionable the entire electorate is - with minor issues inflated in the absence of evidence.

Even outwith the political sphere - the MMR vaccine is one example of the people being influenced against the evidence.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

It's only an axiom if it's true, otherwise it's circular reasoning...

I know quite a few older people who seem to get less wise as they get older, who refuse to entertain new ideas or thoughts or approaches, and are quite fixed and rigid in their thinking - wisdom is experience, knowledge, and good judgement, not just having lived longer.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

So, you can cho off at each end and you have the rump which matches the axiom.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Again, only if you take your initial premise as true (which I don't), and then accept your secondary premise (which, again, I don't).

I believe that wisdom comes from self-insight (the ability to understand that you don't know everything), and anything you do know could be proven incorrect by different information and understandings, self-awareness of yourself in the context of the era you live in and and your family history (as we are all shaped by our experiences), understanding that priorities and values(including your own) are not absolute, and an awareness of life’s ambiguities.

tl:dr - we don't know everything, we should realise we don't know everything, we should try to always learn more, and try not to think in absolutes.

ymmv ;)

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

You should be much more suspicious of someone who thinks they have everything figured out than those who openly admit ignorance. ;)

(I, of course, do know everything but that's a coincidence)

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

“Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein ;)

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Well it wasn’t so long ago they were down ‘pit so why not?

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

At the age of 7 in some cases until later it became illegal for a boy under 12 to work down a mine.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Just as well jfman wasn't around then as he would have been campaigning for 7-year-olds to have the vote! :D

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

l somehow doubt it OB.;)

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Once Arthur Scargill got involved no one was actually working down the mines;)

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

16 year olds can be easily influenced as well

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

So can 65 year olds.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Influence is an interesting argument. A big factor is how different age groups get their information and what they do with it. This paper is quite interesting - https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ion_as_leveler

Unsurprisingly, it shows that social media is a large influencer with the young while traditional print and TV media has a greater impact in older groups. There is a definite 'push' vs.'pull' effect here. Good social media advertising will be well targeted tote receiver and the parties who are good at this will have some success. In this case, information is 'pushed' to the receiver. In print media, we tend to buy papers which reflect us and our values and so to an extent confirms what we think already - the recipient 'pulls' the information.

This works to the extent where groups of people with certain political alignments are almost defined by the media they consume such as centre left 'Guardianistas'.

So, are the young more easily influenced than the old? By influenced, I mean more likely to change their mind on who to vote for. Probably yes but the question is why? I can think of a few reasons;

• Using a broader church of media reduces confirmation bias
• Use of the resources such as the internet allows a deeper level of fact checking
• Interaction with a broader demographic (see this forum as a good example)
• Political advertising can be targeted or 'pushed' to the audience

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Influencing has become so much easier and far reaching due to the magic of the internet and TV.

We are all targeted by influencing all day long, but the 'older' generation have learned (by experience) that much of it is just a con job.

Political influencing is no different to the bombardment of product advertising that hits us whenever we turn something on, they're just trying to 'sell' you a person/promise/idea instead of a product . . actually no, most political parties are now a product too ;)

It's up to the individual and their mindset, coupled with prior experience, which is usually the factor in deciding whether a 'product' is worth all the hype thrown at you about it.

Younger people - in my opinion - are more easily swayed by bull pooh than those who have experienced treading in it a few times :D


edit: see sig below :Yes:

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Or, to put it another way, the young are more open minded that the old.

The number of times I have heard older people recite what they have been told by the Express and Mail which are, at best half truths and at worst lies suggests that they are influenced.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Oh I'm not saying the older generation aren't influenced, but I think the younger ones are more 'open' to being influenced.

There are people of both generations that are easily led (as the saying goes) but it's only life experiences that allow people to judge and trust the information delivered to them . . if they can be bothered to do so ;)

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

A fresh sponge soaks up more syrup,but the syrup just runs off an old sponge;)

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Most of us were idealists when we were young. Then reality got in the way and we realised that things were not so cut and dried.

Experience of life changes that innocent perspective.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

If they could raise £300k in the next six days it would pay for 10 extra nurses this year ;)

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

tbf, they only need to pay for 6 of them, as 4 would be staying on, but still count as new nurses, apparently... ;)

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

I'd say Hugh spotted the obvious and wasn't fooled by the shysters, if you omit to mention certain key facts in an attempt to gain greater political capital out of it you're still a lying piece of crap not worthy of the office held

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Like not mentioning the Kremlin slipped jezza a dodgy dossier.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...nhs-documents/

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

So now the definition of "more" includes those who aren't additional, but are already there.

"Darling, I've bought one more shirt"

"But you have had that shirt for five years"

"Ah, but instead of throwing the shirt out because the collar was frayed, I had it repaired, so now I have one more shirt than I had before..."*

Or if you want to use your "logic"...

"Darling, I've bought one more house"

"But we're still in the same house!"

"Ah, but if we are still paying for the house, it's a new house..."*

OK, then... :confused:

*analogy

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

:spin:

My mathematical education didn't reach much beyond algebra, so the quantum physics above has completely bamboozled me, sorry :shrug:

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Did you attend the Diane Abbott School of Mathematics?

---------- Post added at 17:36 ---------- Previous post was at 17:33 ----------

Er, Seth, would you mind explaining that to me?

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Thank you for explaining your logic, Seph, but I must point out that this has blown your budget and you are now overdrawn!

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

But in the real world, the shirt/nurse isn’t retiring and being replaced, they’re being retained/staying on...

From the Nursing Times

I apologise for the fact that reality, and the Tory Party spokesman, does not reflect your opinion...

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

.... and you still have to pay them instead of recruiting new nurses. Doh.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

And you still have to wash and iron your old shirt - that doesn’t make it a new shirt.

Anyway, please fell free to disagree with the Tory Party spokesman (I can explain it to you, I can’t understand it for you)...

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-2019-50701104 In the same interview He must have forgotten about the £53 million seed money spent on the London Garden Bridge...

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

I do not want to see this kind of tone and talk, “Doh”, at the end of your reply.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

How about a compromise? 17? Old enough to take responsibility for a car, then old enough to vote.
Young people are our future and we shouldn't be so down on them all the time.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

But old enough to get married/procreate. It's for 5 years ahead which takes them into their 20's, the most important time of their lives, where the Govt. Of the day could influence many things for them. There's only one reason why the Govt. don't want young people to vote and we know what that is.

We could equally say anyone over 75 shouldn't vote as mentally they maybe aren't up to it, they probably aren't paying much tax, and don't have much of a stake in the future. It'd be wrong, but more of a case than denying 16/17 year olds a say in their future.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Both things detrimental to health, are you saying being having a say politically is as detrimental to health or something?

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Lets face it, anyone with a definite interest and understanding of politics at the age of 16 probably leads a very uninteresting life.

At that age I was only interested in music, my guitar, football, girls, and my new job . . not necessarily in that order. Politics (and religion) was something old people talked about :p:


to be fair, not much has changed :D

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Yes, procreate so many children that you can't afford to raise them without relying on huge payments from the State. Common sense is not much in abundance for the majority of 16-year-olds. The minimum voting age should be 25. Most people have at least a degree of maturity by then.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

I love how many 'democrats' are for limiting the franchise to those they deem worthy.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

In Afghanistan, the average age of British Forces casualties is 22 - two hundred soldiers have been killed in their twenties and 31 teenagers are among the death toll.

But sure, let’s propose taking away their right to vote...

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

I know - let's make an exception for those serving in the Armed Forces. :D

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

They fight to defend democracy, not to be an exception to it.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Wrong actually - they choose to fight because they have volunteered to do so, this should not give them automatic right to do something just because they opted to join the military.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

I think we’re in agreement about this - they should not be an exception.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

I agree, my post was tongue in cheek, as most will have realised. But nor should they have the vote as most are not mature enough to understand the context of the things they see. A few years away from academia and into the real world generally starts to make them question what they once believed.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

If someone is deemed old enough to fight for their country then they are old enough to vote.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Exactly and that is 18 years old as 16 year olds don't fight.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Also if someone fights for this country then they should automatically become citizens but that's a whole other can of worms.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

No, they are not. They may be physically strong, but mentally they would not have fully developed.

Choosing who runs the country is an important matter and we cannot afford for young people to have the vote when they can so easily be influenced by adults close to them.

If there is an issue here, it should be the minimum age at which you can fight for your country that is raised, not the voting age that is lowered.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Lol, you can't afford them to have a vote when they might not vote the way you want them to more like!

Youngsters today are better educated and more informed than ever. I'm afraid it's older generation that tend to be more bigoted and influenced by tabloids. There should definitely be an IQ test before you're allowed to vote, age should be irrelevant.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

You should stop doing yourself down,i'm sure if you try you can actually listen to others points of view.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Best think about taking the vote from over-65s, then, as their cognitive functions can decline by 10% from that age... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16425522

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Does that also apply in the case of Judges, MPs, Musicians etc etc? ;)

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Excuse me but that's my area of expertise being a retired secondary teacher..My experience is most teenagers will ignore their parents.

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Judges and MPs, yes - why musicians?

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

What raised from 18? The UK doesn't use child soldiers. That said I think the voting age should be lowered, people bang on about young people not voting and being disenfranchised, wonder if being told they can't participate when they're enthusiastic ish about it has anything to do with it

Because nearly always a musician is more creative and produces their best work when they're young er

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

I don't care about how they vote. What concerns me is that most young people are unduly influenced by their teachers and lecturers, and do not have sufficient life experience to understand that views of Utopia are just fairy tales.

This is too important to muck about with. I am prepared to accept 18-year olds having the vote (despite my instinct, which tells me that 21 is more appropriate), but 16 is one step too far.

---------- Post added at 20:23 ---------- Previous post was at 20:19 ----------

But despite some elderly people suffering mental decline, most still have sufficient experience of life to make better choices than those with no real experience of life.

I shouldn't think that there are many people with dementia would want to vote, let alone remember to do so.

---------- Post added at 20:27 ---------- Previous post was at 20:23 ----------

As a parent, I was always careful not to influence the political views of my children, something they have thanked me for since they became adults.

Unfortunately, parents are powerless to influence the crap that they are fed by teaching staff. And students are more influenced by them than their parents.

I am sure that you would never have fed these hungry minds with your political views, Maggie, but could you honestly say the same of your colleagues?

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

`So here's a thought/question

To those who believe a sixteen year old is not wise or experienced enough to be able to vote, is a twenty six year old wise or experienced enough to be an MP?

Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 

Come back and ask in 3 months, when he/she finds that everything they ever put on facebook/twitter has been thoroughly looked at by those who do such things :D

Personally I don't give a hoot, the constituents must have seen potential there.