Cable Forum - US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash

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- - US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33708259)

Damien

07-10-2019 08:43

US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...growing-calls/

This story is absurd. She is accused of causing a crash in which a U.K Citizen was killed and we can't do anything about it because the US won't revoke her immunity! :mad:

Quote:

In the aftermath she got out of the car and admitted liability, sources suggest.

But the following day, when police visited her home at Croughton, which is being used as a US intelligence base, to inform her the teenager had died in hospital, lawyers and embassy officials stepped in.

Dominic Raab, the foreign secretary, personally intervened, urging US ambassador Woody Johnson to grant a waiver of immunity, which was declined.

The US State Department confirmed that the vehicle was being driven by the spouse of a US diplomat assigned to the UK and that the family had left the the country.

OLD BOY

07-10-2019 08:53

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36013035)

America First, remember?;)

papa smurf

07-10-2019 09:25

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

As sad as this story is there would be no point in having diplomatic immunity if it was revoked as soon as there is an incident.

nomadking

07-10-2019 10:19

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

It's not as if the UK has accepted every US extradition request. The UK is always looking for a feeble excuse to refuse.

Link

Quote:

Why is it so much easier to extradite someone from the UK to the U.S. than in the other direction
It isn’t. The United States has not denied a single extradition request from the UK under the treaty; the UK has denied 10 requests from the U.S. since the treaty took effect.
Moreover, extradition requests from the U.S. to the UK have taken as long as 13 years to work their way through the UK and European courts. For extradition requests from the UK to the U.S. the subjects are in most cases extradited within several months.

GrimUpNorth

07-10-2019 13:58

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36013046)

It's not as if the UK has accepted every US extradition request. The UK is always looking for a feeble excuse to refuse.

Link

Could that be something to do with Article 7? We have the right to refuse to extradite anyone who may be sentenced to death if found guilty in the US.

Damien

07-10-2019 14:06

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

It’s not an extradition request, she has immunity so any request would be pointless

GrimUpNorth

07-10-2019 14:08

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36013074)

It’s not an extradition request, she has immunity so any request would be pointless

I understand that - was just trying to explain the possible 'feeble excuse' mentioned above.

Though I do think she should face the consequences of her actions.

nomadking

07-10-2019 14:17

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth (Post 36013073)

Could that be something to do with Article 7? We have the right to refuse to extradite anyone who may be sentenced to death if found guilty in the US.

Certainly not always, and then IIRC the US tends to take the death penalty off the table in those cases.

Hugh	07-10-2019 16:09

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36013042)

As sad as this story is there would be no point in having diplomatic immunity if it was revoked as soon as there is an incident.

Her husband is at RAF Croughton - it's unlikely he's a diplomat*...

*more likely he's Sigint/No Such Agency...

Uncle Peter

07-10-2019 17:36

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

The longer she stays away attempting to evade the justice process then the more people will start digging which will not end well if something's being hidden.

As Hugh stated above: The husband is more than likely NRO SIGINT and probably one of the higher-ups with a child at an expensive private school.

Pierre

07-10-2019 21:44

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

“Immunity”. The clue is in the answer, as distressing as it is.

Damien

07-10-2019 21:52

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36013142)

“Immunity”. The clue is in the answer, as distressing as it is.

Diplomatic Immunity exists as protection against vindictive actions from the host government. It's one measure to help protect against individuals becoming pawns in a tit-for-tat battle between their governments. When it is abused it's usually small scale transgressions like avoiding parking tickets. It is not meant to protect people accused of killing a citizen of the host country.

The U.S. are sticking two fingers up at us and completely abusing this privilege. Yes, legally they are in the clear and politically too since they know we can't do anything about it. Just really infuriating.

Mr K	07-10-2019 21:59

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Well Boris is going to call Trump, let's see what happens. Should be a clue to our future.

jfman

07-10-2019 22:02

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36013147)

Well Boris is going to call Trump, let's see what happens. Should be a clue to our future.

And he’s trying to get the tariffs off Scotch whisky. Come on, Don let’s get this glorious trade deal off to a good start, make the special relationship great again!

nomadking

07-10-2019 22:06

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Parking tickets have nothing to do with diplomatic immunity. They are to do with whether a charge is for a service or a penalty.
Link

Quote:

In part, things have reached this stage because of an argument over whether the charge is the price of a service or merely a tax for going in and out of London. Diplomats tend to argue the second, because it just so happens that they are also immune from tax as well as from prosecution. The US reached this view in 2005.

Geneva Convention

Quote:

Article 23
1.The sending State and the head of the mission shall be exempt from all national, regional or
municipal dues and taxes in respect of the premises of the mission, whether owned or leased, other than
such as represent payment for specific services rendered.
Article 34
A diplomatic agent shall be exempt from all dues and taxes, personal or real, national, regional or
municipal, except:

---------- Post added at 22:06 ---------- Previous post was at 22:05 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36013150)

And he’s trying to get the tariffs off Scotch whisky. Come on, Don let’s get this glorious trade deal off to a good start, make the special relationship great again!

The tariffs are aimed at the EU. Leave the EU and no tariffs.

Damien

07-10-2019 22:07

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Fair enough, it isn't abused for parking tickets.

1andrew1

07-10-2019 23:34

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36013151)

The tariffs are aimed at the EU. Leave the EU and no tariffs.

In my great and unmatched wisdom, its end target is Airbus which has factories in the UK hence targetting the UK. If it wasn't against the UK, why the Scotch whisky tariffs?

nomadking

08-10-2019 00:05

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36013167)

It's against Airbus which has factories in the UK. If it wasn't against the UK, why the Scotch whisky tariffs.?

Link

Quote:

The new duty is part of a raft of measures being imposed by the US in retaliation against EU subsidies given to aircraft maker Airbus.

It would seem we can't avoid it, as the dispute was against the EU and certain member countries.
Although

Quote:

"The UK, through the EU, is seeking confirmation from the WTO that we have complied fully with WTO rulings regarding support to Airbus, and should not be subject to tariffs."

Seems unreasonable to expect a monopoly by Boeing to have existed instead.

Link

Quote:

In fact, in looking at the effect of the EU subsidies, the original WTO panel that first heard the case and the Appellate Body agreed that “[w]ithout the subsidies, Airbus would not have existed … and there would be no Airbus aircraft on the market.

Russ	08-10-2019 05:09

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Nothing will come from this, sadly. Yanks simply do not respect the authority and laws of other countries especially whilst at home.

Maggy

08-10-2019 08:49

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

How about avoiding going off topic.

TheDaddy

10-10-2019 06:56

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36013042)

As sad as this story is there would be no point in having diplomatic immunity if it was revoked as soon as there is an incident.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36013074)

It’s not an extradition request, she has immunity so any request would be pointless

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36013142)

“Immunity”. The clue is in the answer, as distressing as it is.

Gueorgui Makharadze was Georgian deputy ambassador to America, he killed a girl in a drink driving crash in the mid nineties and some how had his immunity revoked and was tried and convicted of manslaughter so it's not pointless, even if they refuse to waive her immunity it's not pointless as the family can then sue the American government in a US court

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36013172)

Nothing will come from this, sadly. Yanks simply do not respect the authority and laws of other countries especially whilst at home.

They don't usually but I get the feeling this isn't going away anytime soon and how hypocritical will it look in a US court when old Gueorgui is wheeled out and his story explained.

Damien

10-10-2019 09:22

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36013447)

They don't usually but I get the feeling this isn't going away anytime soon and how hypocritical will it look in a US court when old Gueorgui is wheeled out and his story explained.

The President has defended her so I don't think we're going to see the immunity revoked.

Mr K	10-10-2019 09:42

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36013460)

The President has defended her so I don't think we're going to see the immunity revoked.

Just goes to show how we really rate with the US. They certainly won't be doing us any favours in a trade deal.

Uncle Peter

10-10-2019 11:55

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

So what we can take from this is that certain individuals who are not actually diplomats and their families have a free pass to evade the justice system as and when it suits.

Cue open season for FOI requests because I suspect there's a certain amount of bravo sierra being drip fed to the media by Whitehall and this is not going to go away anytime soon.

Carth

10-10-2019 12:08

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Answer to future issues . .

All people in this country with Diplomatic Immunity must use taxis (or buses/trains) as a means of transport, and cannot drive any vehicle.

Nice little earner for cab firms, stops drinking & driving, reduces official paperwork.

will never happen :D

TheDaddy

10-10-2019 13:21

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36013460)

The President has defended her so I don't think we're going to see the immunity revoked.

10 months ago he was defending the Kurds and now look what's happening to them...

Damien

10-10-2019 14:25

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Well I guess the least we can do is ban her from coming back, expel her husband assuming he hasn't already written off coming back and have a review into which Americans can be future be given this diplomatic immunity.

Damien

13-10-2019 07:33

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Immunity revoked: https://news.sky.com/story/diplomats...rents-11833917

Bit weird because we're saying 'it no longer applies' but she returned home and so the US don't need to give as a waiver. The US are also acknowledging she was lost it but haven't revoked it themselves.

So did we revoke it and the US are accepting that to avoid a bigger fight? Will they now extradite?

Mr K	10-01-2020 21:06

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9279146.html

Quote:

. Harry Dunn crash: UK formally requests extradition of US diplomat's wife over crash which killed British teenager

What are the chances of the US handing her over? Less than zero I'd suggest. However the other way round would be different. All for show by the UK govt.

TheDaddy

11-01-2020 03:15

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36022537)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9279146.html

What are the chances of the US handing her over? Less than zero I'd suggest. However the other way round would be different. All for show by the UK govt.

The other way round would indeed be different as shown some years back when they got some Eastern Europeans immunity waved but when we do it the state department calls it egregious abuse whilst the bitch concerned says she's not coming back because it was an accident, you couldn't make it up, that poor family, haven't they suffered enough

TheDaddy

04-02-2021 06:20

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Interesting developments, she never even had diplomatic immunity, I'm glad his family found the strength to fight on but then what else could they do really, giving up was never an option imho

1andrew1

04-02-2021 09:03

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36069347)

Interesting developments, she never even had diplomatic immunity, I'm glad his family found the strength to fight on but then what else could they do really, giving up was never an option imho

These are the developments I believe you are referencing

Quote:

Harry Dunn's alleged killer Anne Sacoolas was an intelligence worker, her lawyer confirms
Harry Dunn's family launch a civil case for damages against Anne Sacoolas after the collision that killed 19-year-old Harry.

https://news.sky.com/story/harry-dun...firms-12208134
No surprise that she did not have diplomatic immunity - why else woud she have left the UK so quickly?

Russ	04-02-2021 09:53

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

It just shows how much contempt yankland has for the laws of other countries.

Mick	04-02-2021 12:44

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36069351)

These are the developments I believe you are referencing

https://news.sky.com/story/harry-dun...firms-12208134
No surprise that she did not have diplomatic immunity - why else woud she have left the UK so quickly?

One other tidbit of a development which I’m not surprised you had zero criticism for:-

Quote:

US presidents Donald Trump and Joe Biden have both declined to send her back, saying the US rejection of the extradition request is "final"

TheDaddy

04-02-2021 15:11

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36069399)

One other tidbit of a development which I’m not surprised you had zero criticism for:-

That was a while ago based on either what they knew or what they believed the rest of us knew, it all starts over again now seeing as it came out in open court that she never even had diplomatic immunity, I'm prepared to believe both presidents offices took advice on face value but the state department would have known the truth when they were calling our extradition request egregious

Mick	04-02-2021 18:11

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

It’s not starting over. It won’t change any decision to have Sacoolas extradited back to UK. For a start, there is a High Court ruling, that argues Sacoolas did have Diplomatic Immunity based on the Vienna Convention, not a set of words of treaties agreed by the UK or RAF Base in Croughton, that does not supersede it. The U.S State Department now under the Biden Administration ruled only last week, their refusal to extradite is final.

Hugh	04-02-2021 19:20

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

The family have been given Leave to appeal against the High Court Diplomatic Immunity ruling.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-55174340

Quote:

The parents of Harry Dunn have been granted permission to appeal against a High Court ruling over the diplomatic immunity of his alleged killer.

Mr Dunn, 19, died when his motorbike was in a crash with a car near RAF Croughton, Northamptonshire, in 2019.

The suspect Anne Sacoolas later left for the United States and last week judges accepted she "enjoyed immunity from UK criminal jurisdiction".

The spokesman for Mr Dunn's family said they were "delighted" over the appeal.

Mick	04-02-2021 20:53

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

I knew that already, given I know how the judges gave their ruling, based off the Vienna Convention. It won’t change any decision. The U.S won’t extradite Sacoolas, under any circumstances. Either way. They’re certainly not going to care what the UK judicial system comes up with next.

TheDaddy

04-03-2021 06:55

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Civil action now given the go ahead to proceed in US, this won't be the last case they bring either

Raab has again brought it up with new Secretary of State to

TheDaddy

21-10-2022 00:35

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

Sacoolas pled guilty to causing death by careless driving by video link in a UK court yesterday, she'll be sentenced in November

Jaymoss

21-10-2022 09:00

Re: US diplomat's wife leaves UK after fatal crash - claims immunity

She was never a diplomat either but a spy of some sort

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