Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Well, Jo Swinson is certainly making a name for herself. I wonder if her efforts will see the Lib Dems take over from Labour as the natural party of opposition?

The Lib Dems are putting forward some policies that will appeal to many more people in the country than policies promoted by Labour.
Today, Ed Davey is putting forward his proposal for a 'green capitalism', there would be regulations forcing financial institutions to be transparent about their carbon investments, there would be a relaunched regional growth fund, investment in new east-west rail connections in the Midlands and the north, and life-long education and training and a well-being budget to assist vulnerable people including tackling mental health issues and domestic violence. Add to that their embrace of the Remain agenda, and I think many would find that more appealing and relevant than Labour's confused position and step back into the 1970s.

What do forum members think? A recipe for winning or just more wishy-washy stuff that is more likely to turn off the electorate?

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Vote Lib Dem get Tory. Might as well cut out the middleman.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

More wishy-washy stuff that is more likely to turn off the electorate.

You forgot revoke A50 if they actually get in, that's more than just embracing the remain agenda.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

I didn't forget, but frankly that will be a non-issue by November.

I do think many Labour voters are having a crisis of confidence in their party with Corbyn and McDonnell in charge and there might just be a haemorrage of voters towards the Lib Dems.

That certainly suits me!

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

I would think more would vote for the Brexit party than LibDem.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Even if it's a "non-issue" don't you think they will campaign to rejoin/Norway model or some other form close relationship with the EU?

They see going for the remain voters as a way to pull the rug from under the Labour Party. Thankfully, everyone will see right through it and remember the Lib Dems as the midwives of austerity.

Edit: let's avoid this turning into a Brexit thread

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Which Marxist* policies have been promoted by Labour?

Not a Labour fan, and would never vote for them, but I think it is important to discuss facts, not polemic.

*not Socialist, Marxist**

---------- Post added at 13:09 ---------- Previous post was at 13:06 ----------

Mod warning - let's not let this thread descend into another Brexit thread, please

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

What sort of polices would you describe as Marxist?

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

That's not an answer to the question asked, it's merely a reflection to the conversation.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

No, it's a request for clarification, as if you didn't know.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

What makes a particular policy, Socialist as opposed to being Marxist. How are we expected to correctly label them otherwise?

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

There's a mass of political literature out there explaining the difference between Marxism and democratic socialism.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Having watched and listened to Swinson on the TV i have to wonder if she is insan or just deluded.
my instinct says :nutter:

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Probably, and in denial about her own legacy from the coalition.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

She seems to have forgotten conveniently about that but then again politicians of all persuasions seems to develop political amnesia when it suits them.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

The Scots certainly have their own take on politics! :D

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

The OP can give his definition, and then why he then labels Labour policies as such - his statement, not mine.

Or..

He could just state which Labour policies he thinks are Marxist.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

OB essentially opposes any intervention, in any area, by the state even in areas that commercially are unable to sustain competition.

All these are areas for companies to cream off profits, lower employment rights and ultimately increase costs for end users (taxpayers).

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

The TOC's franchising system is a case in point as how many times did the Conservative government have to intervene there with contracts that became unsustainable so the government had to take over those franchises short term.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

If you think those are bad Den wait til you hear about the banks ;)

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Clearly, you don't understand my position at all. You are completely wrong when you say I oppose any intervention. Where on Earth did you get that from?

If you really want to know what is going on in the Labour Party and why I have raised the Marxist threat, you may wish to read this chilling article.

https://standpointmag.co.uk/issues/f...-to-socialism/

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Labour had to do the same though with Northern Rock.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Which Labour policies are Marxist, please?

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

It's not very chilling to be honest. There's radical left wing people in the Labour Party. No real surprise to be honest, but until such times as they stand on, and more importantly get elected on such a platform there's nothing but scaremongering there.

Half the present PLP wouldn't back that agenda, let alone any opposition parties.

Read the actual Labour manifesto and show us Marxism.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Not if you're a Marxist it isn't.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Apparently, the home affairs spokesman for the Lib Dems, Christine Jardine, will call for a shake-up of the power of the Home Secretary to revoke citizenship as happened in the Begum case. She wants the best interest of the terrorists' children to be taken into account.

Jardine stated: “The decision to strip someone of their citizenship is a very serious one and should only be taken when absolutely necessary. Instead, we have seen Conservative home secretaries abuse this power for political gain with tragic results.

“These are people brought up, often born here, with families and loved ones who deserve a government that will take responsibility when they are radicalised and go abroad to join terrorists. They should be prosecuted in the UK for their crimes and interrogated to learn exactly how this happens and prevent terrorists from recruiting more young Brits".

That should go down well with the British public!

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Or if you know that radical left pieces have been around for decades and virtually none of it makes it into watered down manifestos of political parties running left wing platforms in a democracy.

Interesting from a political science perspective I suppose.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Well, read the article and make your own assessment.

You surely cannot deny that Corbyn and McDonnell are Marxists. They have admitted it and they are proud of it. Their policies are designed with that in mind.

To listen to McDonnell talking about just printing money as they need to in order to fund their huge spending spree they have planned, renationalise industry, give power to the workers so they can dictate to their bosses - the intention is perfectly clear, is it not?

---------- Post added at 15:53 ---------- Previous post was at 15:52 ----------

Nobody like Corbyn has been leader of the Labour Party since Michael Foot!

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Policies "designed with Marxism in mind" and Marxist policies aren't the same thing. Anything on the left of the political spectrum could have that applied to it.

I'm quite sure if we compare a Foot manifesto with the most recent Labour one there will be plenty of differences.

What we are seeing here is an attempt to redefine centre-left alongside communism, as has been done in the United States, so some can push extreme unrestricted and unregulated capitalism as the alternative.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

I don't bother worrying about this 'marxist, left of center, far right' or whatever thing is read into policies/actions etc.

I do wonder though, how stupid people can often surpass themselves in that skill.

Anyway, enough about me, what are their thoughts on fox hunting, sex education for 8 yr olds, public transport, free beer for pensioners*, and nuclear power stations?

*asking for a friend ;)

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

He is asking you, so how about you actually answer the question instead of constantly trying to side step it. :)

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Because the answers are in the article and I'm not going to type it all out again because someone is too lazy to read it.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

In other words, you have no answer, That's what I thought.

Its not up to people to find and read links (there is no article in your first post).
The only person being lazy is you, you post something then fail completely to back it up.

The post has been edited since you refuse to answer the question.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

I am without words....:rolleyes:

I provided a link. I'm not the one being lazy.

Corbyn and McDonnell are avowed Marxists. This is sufficient evidence on its own.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

It's not sufficient to then say the Labour Party manifesto is a Marxist policy platform. Which is where your argument fell down.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

No, it didn't fall down at all. The nationalising of industry, devaluation of our currency, the inheritence tax, the garden tax, etc, are all the first stages of pushing the Marxist agenda. It won't stop there.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Another well known policy has devalued our currency. Taxation is a legitimate source of Government income, the question is what services you want to pay for with it and who should pay. Nationalising industry can give better value where privatisation fails to provide genuine consumer choice and competition. Train operators etc.The only difference is there isn't anyone creaming profits into offshore holding companies.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

No, the difference is that there is no investment and the service is poorly run. Obviously, you are not old enough to appreciate just how bad our national rail service was, and the remarkable transformation that took place when it was nationalised.

You may think it's not well run now, but you should take a look at the problems we had in the past!

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Going a bit far. Nationalised rail is hardly Marxist.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

It is one of the first steps of Corbyn's Marxist agenda.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Remarkable transformation? Where?

Underinvestment is the first play of the privatisation handbook. It's hardly surprising that the Conservatives let it rot before saying the best option was to sell it. Same goes for the NHS now.

The alternative is to make people pay via the tax system. Pay over the counter, pay through tax, either way you pay. There's no philanthropic medical insurance providers out there, just as there aren't with train operators.

---------- Post added at 19:42 ---------- Previous post was at 19:40 ----------

You've been asked to evidence that it's a Marxist agenda and had your original post amended for failing to do so.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Now now ... the rail network suffered underinvestment consistently under both main parties for its entire period of national ownership. This wasn’t a nefarious Thatcherite plot to justify selling it off. The civil service managed the network like an outpost of empire, destined to fade to nothing. ‘Managed decline’, they called it.

The government has indeed thrown buckets of cash at the network since it was privatised, but the addition of TOCs and ROSCOs to the dynamic has brought in private investment on top of that, that would not otherwise have been available to the railway.

The model under which the railway network is now operated is far from perfect but I don’t believe profit is an inherently dirty word. You give someone an incentive to work for and they do a better job. That’s just human nature. We might as well live with it.

(Written from my seat on a Virgin Trains Pendolino, which brought tilting trains to the west coast main line with private investment where state funding tried, and failed). ;)

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

What do you mean as Marxist though? As far as I ever understood it (I've never actually read any Marx) Marxism itself isn't an end-goal but a particular branch of Socialist/Communist philosophy. I get how someone can be a Marxist, but not really how a specific policy can be.

Beyond on all that I think it's quite hard to work out specifically where someone falls within the million different off-shoots the socialist left falls unless they're really clear about it.

I guess you think Corbyn is a communist and are using Marxist as a short-hand for that.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Strictly speaking it is.

Marxism is basically where the government control all of the national resources.

Back in the day

If "British" Steel (gov owned) made the rails, that "British" Rail trains ran on, fuelled by coal from pits run by the "national" coal board etc - that's Marxism in a nutshell.

McDonnell has made it no secret he would nationalise a whole string of sectors again.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

With the trade unions given the legal right to bring the economy to its knees, again. Three day week and frequent major power cuts, here we come....! What a way to run a country.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

None of these things are in the Labour manifesto.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

You mean those glossy manifesto's produced by all political parties for general elections and then broken once they are elected into 10 Downing Street.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Well, just let's wait and see what happens if ever they get into power, shall we?

I will be one of the first to emigrate as I can see what will happen. I hope you enjoy hardship.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

You'll be waiting a long time.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

All things being equal, yes! :D

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Hardship haha. Honestly, you're being awfully melodramatic here on the basis of very little.

At least the millions in poverty due to austerity have nothing to lose though.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Venezuela. The destination of Corbyn's dreams.

I am not the melodramatic type. You obviously haven't been listening very intently to Corbyn and McDonnell, have you? They would bring us to our knees.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Explain what policies in the Labour manifesto would do this, clearly outlining how they couldn't be fully costed.

We get it, you don't like state functions because there's profits that capitalists could cream off the top.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Have you read any of the Labour Party Press Releases?

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Nice diversionary tactic once more. It's all very tame and attacking obvious failures in privatisation and taxing the wealthy. What's not to like?

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Can you post a link to the Labour manifesto? I thought it wouldn't be released until after the conference.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Ha, you really haven't been paying attention, have you, jfman? Costing doesn't come into it. McDonnell has stated that he would simply print the money they need for their harebrained schemes!

As an economist, you should know where that will lead...:rolleyes:

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

How is it diversionary? You're the one claiming Labour's Policies are perfectly fine, without any reference to what they are.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

I'm saying they are quite tame. I challenge anyone to name an outlandish policy that will push me into hardship.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Er, you do realise there's a conference coming up where Momentum will tell them exactly what to do.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Indeed that is the case but that is no different then the Conservatives talking to their political masters as well.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Doing rather well in the polls, the Lib Dems. The main attraction being they aren't Conservative or Labour. Not a high bar to achieve.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Doing well in the polls does not mean it will turn itself into a whole lot of new MP's come the general election.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

With luck it will just split the Labour vote and allow the Conservatives to romp home with a huge majority.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Every one of their policies will cost money and add to inflation.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

That's not how inflation works.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Don't forget the Brexit party OB. If Boris does not deliver...

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

I'm sure he will...:erm:

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Well Marxism is, again correct me if I am wrong since I am not an expert, essentially communism. The abolishment of private property with the nations resources spread out to 'ensure equality'.

I think it's a bit of a leap to say nationalising the railway is therefore Marxist. You could argue any government ownership if Marxist if that was the case and the term would be useless as a result.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Looking at the long term polling data graphs for the last 9 years a couple of weeks ago your scenario is very unlikely to play out and predictions are the Conservatives will win most seats but will not have a overall majority.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Yes, you were sure about.TM aswell...

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Have you seen the Manifesto for the next election? You must be on the inside then.

---------- Post added at 20:26 ---------- Previous post was at 20:25 ----------

Could you forward me a copy of the manifesto for the next election then, as seen as you know all about it.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Adding costs and taxes to businesses, adds to inflation.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

The 2017 one will do. I haven't seen any indication Corbyn or McDonnell have changed much since then.

It's also Old Boy making the claim this hypothetical manifesto will put me into hardship. Has he seen it?

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

To be fair, since the referendum, and the election, they have sorted their shehite out.

You are under no illusion what a vote for the LibDems is, and that is attractive to many.

Only issue is, if they are the king makers in a future coalition they could not afford to throw away a red line like revoking A.50 again, like they did with tuition fees.

Making such a future coalition with the Tories ( I know but for argument) impossible and with Labour, very problematic for Labour and the LibDems.

Making a potential coalition ( if the numbers stacked up) between Tory and Brexit ( if we haven’t left) more likely.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

You didn't say tax businesses in your original post. It's also not the only macroeconomic lever that can be used to control inflation.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

I’ll stop you there. No it won’t.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

The railways is not a good example of anything. After WW2 the different companies were seriously struggling to keep going due to the continuous problems and damage to the system in the early 40's. In 1945 the railways were on their knees, it wasn't a case of being run into the ground but keep it running at any cost for the war effort and the companies more or less did that. They were owed millions and were on the brink of bankruptcy which made nationalisation a good solution.

After that lack of Government investment by all parties have left the railways in the state they are now.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

So Old Boy's entire premise in this thread is flawed.

Thanks for helping me get there.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

That just about sums it up perfectly as before the war they were known as the Big Four and then after the war they all merged into British Railways in 1948.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Like anything it’s a spectrum. Marxism one end - total free market economy the other.

There are lots of models inbetween.

Even the USA has state controlled enterprises, very few granted.

China is essentially still a communist state..........

However, I would still describe that nationalisation of companies in what is, in the main, a free market economy as a Marxist policy. You could legitimately challenge that statement and I could legitimately argue it.

You can always argue some things should either be owned by the state or very closely regulated by the state, we generally go for the latter.

There is no compelling reason for Railway carriers, for example, to be state owned.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Thank you, a lot of people forget about where the railways problems began and concentrate on the political aspect.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Not a expert on much but l have a lot of books on Railways.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

I would say there is which is why a lot of countries don't privatise the railways. The main one being there is no real mechinism for competition. You as a consumer can rarely choose which provider to take because you need to get somewhere and there are rarely multiple lines for that.

The tender process is a flawed attempt to bring competition into it because to make any investment worthwhile companies need to be given long contracts which, once given, are hard to take away for poor service. Seen how bad Southern Rail have been.

Even longer term investment such as HS2 needs to be driven by the government anyway because of the length of time involved to build and then to turn a profit.

Then there is the fact they're a key part of our infrastructure whose success shouldn't only be measured by profit but the economic benefits of the areas which they serve. This is largely useless for private companies that need to make a profit, if the government want them to serve some minor station for a handful of people in a rural area then they need to provide incentives for that. So we have to underwrite it anyway.

I would argue there are few candidates better for nationalisation than the rail network.

---------- Post added at 21:54 ---------- Previous post was at 21:46 ----------

I think you can only describe it as a Marxist policy if it's part of a broader attempt to bring about Marxism in practise, i.e prepping the country to become communist. Even a socialist government couldn't be described as Marxist without that intent. Just as some policies such as increasing police/security apparatus or putting more power in the executive cannot be described as facist without a border context suggesting it to be so.

The formation of the NHS for example was not a Marxist policy because Attlee was not a Marxist.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

The problems with Southern Rail and others, exemplify the problems that will arise with giving the Trade Unions more power.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

I agree with one thing she said. she does not want Scotland to be independent . But to try and cancel Brexit is going against democracy ,

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Not really. The railways was just an example. They will also nationalise the power suppliers and the list goes on. Where will they find the money? They will just print it. Simples. :rolleyes:

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

They don’t have a manifesto yet, as has been pointed out to me so you are just speculating.

Simples is your understanding of macroeconomic theory, as I’ve been pointing all round this forum for months now.

Actually nationalising the railway can be done quite cheaply - the most costly chunk is already state owned - Network Rail.

The franchises can be replaced by state run TOCs as and when they come up for renewal. Saves the risk of the state bailing them out anyway and could reduce costs in the long run with a joined up approach to rolling stock. We could even build the trains here and pay British workers!

Of course your simplistic understanding of socialism vs capitalism wouldn’t comprehend this!

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

The only part of the national railway network that remains fully privately owned is the rolling stock. Nationalising that wouldn’t be cheap. The information is hard to come by, but the combined value of the three big rolling stock leasing companies seems to be in the region of £8-9bn. Government could simply stop placing new rolling stock orders through the ROSCOs and in recent years has indeed placed some orders direct with manufacturers. But when you consider how much ex-BR stock is still on the network, it’s clear that privately-owned and leased stock is going to be part of our railway for many years. The stuff isn’t going to wear out any time soon and it would be a work of ideological folly to compulsorily purchase it. How many hospitals can you build for £9 billion?

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Of course building hospitals with £9bn wouldn’t result in savings in the long run (rental costs of rolling stock). Although not rail PFI (both colours) has shown, ownership of assets (in this case the rolling stock) over the long run would provide better value to Government.

I do agree though a transitioned approach would be more stable.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Yes, government expenditure is cheaper in the long run, but the purpose of getting a loan and then paying it off (which is sort-of what infrastructure PFI and railway ROSCOs is) is that you get all the money you need up-front, the financial risk of the project is shared (in theory at least) and the cost in any given year is smaller. A lot more infrastructure has been built, much more quickly, over the past 20 years using this method than would have been reasonably possible under direct government funding and ownership (in Scotland, for example, the vast majority of high school buildings in the country are under about 20 years old. They have all been rebuilt using private finance. The long-term financial cost of this may be higher, but the direct owning/operating cost would not be nearly low enough for a building programme on that scale to be attempted.)

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

But I’m afraid that is not understanding the model. The ”competition” is in bidding for the franchise and being allowed to run it for the term of the agreement. The successful bidder has the ability to run the franchise and make money but to win it must submit a tender that commits to them also investing in it.

The “competition” is not in the choice of the passenger, although there may be an element of that on some services.

I don’t think the model is flawed but the process of assessing and awarding the contracts may be and also open to levels of incompetence and corruption.

I, personally, don’t believe the government ( unless you have ultimate executive power wi h no regulation - such as China for example) are best placed to manage or deliver any major infrastructure projects.

There are sectors that work and those that don’t, i’ll Agree with that. No one could argue that the privatisation and deregulation of the telecoms sector was a bad idea.

Privatisation of certain public services within local authorities- surely a good thing.

Privatisation of power generation, do you think the government could have financed Offshore Wind??? Especially in the developmental stages.

It depends on the contract. They will be told there are lucrative routes and routes they will have to take a loss on.

I disagree.

We invented the pendalino ( spelt wrong I think); it was called the APT we thought it up in the 70’s, the tilting train, so you could have high speed trains on U.K. twisty lines.

British Rail failed to deliver it, but now we buy it from a private company.

Governments are not the birth place of innovation and delivery.

The NHS is a good example as much of it is not controlled by the government, it is however funded totally by the government ( well us actually, the government doesn’t have any money)

So no the NHS is not Marxist, but it still needs to be run better

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

This is a better example than you realise.

BR was under intense political pressure to deliver on the APT project, despite not being given adequate resources to complete the R&D. The pressure to complete quickly and the refusal to invest were both political decisions by a government that wasn’t willing to invest in rail. As a result, the few APTs that ever entered service had a tendency to either tilt too far, causing motion sickness, or not tilt at all, causing things to fly across the cabin.

The APT project was dropped and its patents sold to Fiat, which refined the system (IIRC the tilting mechanism is now electrical rather than hydraulic). It is now installed on a range of vehicles, including, in the UK, Pendolinos and Super Voyagers used by Virgin Trains West Coast (I believe CrossCountry have had the mechanism removed from their Super Voyagers when they took over the franchise - there is still a relatively high maintenance cost that can only be justified on certain routes).

A government committed long-term to a rail transport strategy could have seen it through, but UK governments have rarely been favourable towards rail and in the 1970s and 80s they very much allowed it to operate on sufferance.

Re: Liberal Democrat conference/manifesto
 

Good summary. And now Stadler has introduced non-tilting trains in the UK that go as fast as the tiliting Pendolinos and Voyagers without tilting or its costs. But that's a little off track. ;)