20mph in Wales.
 

Speed limits of 20mph could be introduced in all residential areas in Wales

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48188233

Some areas on the bus route I use often was dropped from 30mph to 20mph. The response from the bus company was to cut buses on that route (and others) from 3 an hour to 2 an hour. They had been at 4 an hour this time last year.

With almost the whole route reducing to 20mph, I wouldn't be surprised if the buses were cut to 1 an hour.

Peak times already see packed buses and people being left behind due to no room available.

And soon the shiny new BBC HQ opens in the city centre. Built upon the old bus station site, and still no new bus station being constructed after many years waiting. And then the new Tax Office building will open almost next door. That's a large number of commuters who are going to get very upset with the city's bonkers transport policies.

Another case of not thinking about the consequences, but just agreeing to green lobbyists' demands.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

most side streets in cleethorpes are 20 mph have been for quite some time,no one takes any notice of the limit except me,a police car crashed at over 100 mph on one of them destroying several parked vehicles the driver was giving chase to a stolen car ,never heard another word about it.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Its the same down here papa but its amazing how many ignore the 20 mph as its 20 mph for a reason yet many drivers just flagrantly ignore it sadly.

---------- Post added at 21:00 ---------- Previous post was at 20:58 ----------

You won't as its brushed under the carpet.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

And this is worthy of debate why? 20mph zones have been around, in England at least, for years........the world hasn’t ended.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Is it or is that just a myth?

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

If it is classed as residential l am pretty sure its 20 mph and if it is in a built up area l think its 30 mph.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

I was talking about it being brushed under the carpet.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

There is nothing green about it.
Cars doing 20mph as opposed to 30mph are generally less effecient, plus you get the exhaust fumes for 50% longer.

Probably because almost no one pays any attention to them.
We have had them in Nottingham for a few years, Ive never seen anyone actually do 20mph, not even the buses stick to it.

The only reason is because some muppet decided to impose a new arbitary limit, probably to justify their existance, and spend a fortune in new signs.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

We have 20mph areas in my town. But obviously BMWs are exempt.

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The only 20 MPH limits around here are by schools.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

A better approach is to have 20 where you need it, schools/narrow roads/side streets and 30 where you want the traffic. That way you get safety where you want to slow things down and direct the traffic to wider through roads.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Same here i wonder why.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Even better approach imo is to make it time limited, what's the point of having a twenty limit outside a school at three in the morning

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

To be fair no one is usually out at 3 in the morning around our schools.;)

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

The reason given by the council for making my street a 20 mph zone was children play on the road:shrug: they don't if they want to stay alive.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Heartwarming and compassionate, as always. :shrug:

That's the problem with kids - they're kids, and often act without thinking (no matter how many times we tell them). The latest figures show that at 20mph, there is a 1.5% (1 in 66ish) chance of being fatally injured - at 30mph it's 8% (1 in 12ish); so driving 10mph faster increases the chance of a fatality over 5 times.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Why should they be playing in the middle of a through road? What the odds of being fatally injured, if you're not in the middle of the road when you're not supposed to be? IIRC With the very first pedestrian fatality from a car, the vehicle was only travelling at 4mph. If you step right out in front of a car, speed isn't a factor.

Link

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Was the speed a factor in why the people died or got seriously injured? For example, did they die because the car was going 20mph instead of they would have survived if the car was going 30mph? Or is it because people have the attitude of blame everyone else instead of being at fault themselves? The article you quoted says "

"There is no simple explanation for this adverse trend but it could be that local people perceive the area to be safer due to the presence of the 20mph restrictions and thus are less diligent when walking and crossing roads, cycling or otherwise travelling."

Which could indicate that the reducing the speed limit didn't actually do anything other than people blaming it for something it hasn't done, they've done it.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

As the quote says "could be". It's mere speculation and the usual of trying to come up with feeble excuses. Are we expected to believe that people consciously think to themselves, "oh it's 20mph, so we'll take less care"?

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

They don’t just play, they often run after things, or step out from behind parked cars, so if the cars are travelling slower, they have a great chance of surviving.

The Council’s findings about the increase in accidents were challenged.

http://roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/stak...-20mph-scheme/

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

I wouldn't say it's mere speculation. What's the other option? Reducing speed by 10mph from 30mph to 20mph makes more people die or get seriously injured? How on earth does that make any sense. I just see people trying to blame something for their (others) mistakes.

So again you link to something that others are doing on purpose which is skewing the results. If people aren't doing the speed limit, then how can you blame deaths or serious injuries on the limit reduction. Again it's people not taking responsibility for their actions that are causing some of these deaths or serious injuries.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

The post you were replying to, specifically said "playing". Similar adverse findings were made in other areas.


There needs to be a distinction of where the collision takes place. Does the vehicle come off the road and onto the pavement? Is it somebody stepping off into the road, right into the path of a vehicle? Is it somebody crossing the road and misjudging the speed of the approaching vehicle? Vehicle jumping red lights at a pedestrian crossing? It is important to identify which scenario in order to establish where a reduction in speed limit would have any effect.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

That's all true. What wont happen though is a reduction of speed limit causing more deaths. You are slowing people down, not speeding them up.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Who gives a toss? If they hit a child at 30mph, there is a five times greater chance of a fatality than if they hit it at 20mph.

All your casuistry, quibbling, and Gish-galloping doesn’t change those basic facts.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Maybe if Councils stopped selling off every bit of grass they own, kids would have somewhere safer to play instead of a road :shrug:

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

:tu:

But, around here at least, I hardly ever see kids out playing. But what I do see are kids riding bicycles with no respect to the law, the highway code, their own safety, or the safety of others. Then they get hold of motorbikes and cars and act the same way!

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

+1

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

There's a park around the corner but the kids won't go there

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

j/k :)

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

I have no issues with a 20 MPH limit around schools and by play areas myself. However I do get pissed off by anyone who drives up my road over 30..

The real issue is however who the hell is going to police a generalised 20 MPH? Resources are already squeezed for the police and local councils.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Millions of speed cameras? Repurposing potholes as "traffic calming" measures?

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

The trouble with your logic, Hugh, is that nobody obeys speed limits that are demonstrably too low.

Most people do not obey 20mph speed limits and enforcement is not adequate anyway. You could reduce the speed limit to 10mph if you liked, but it would make no difference.

Speed limits should be reasonable, otherwise they come into disrepute generally and people will just ignore them.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

They might be too low in your opinion OB but they are not too low in my opinion.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

As the owner of a car, you don't get to say what speed limit a road should be while driving. Either stick to the limit or surrender your license. I'm sick of drivers thinking it's ok to break any rules/laws they see fit because they don't like them.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

There has been a guy on a bicycle riding in the middle of the road with a jacket marked with "20 is plenty". He really seems to enjoy holding up all the traffic as he dawdles along at 5mph.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

I disagree - I have found, near me (where a lot of 20mph limits have come in in the last year) that most people have dropped their speeds - it may not be 20 (more around mid-20s), but every little helps.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

If you're careful and just gently touch his rear wheel with your front bumper you can then accelerate him swiftly up to 20-30-40-95;)

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Children (or adults) should not be playing in the middle of a road.

If they hit them at 10mph there is even less of a chance, if they hit them at 5 mph ... etc

Yes, it might be a "fact", but its a pretty pointless fact.
The only safe speed is 0 mph - by your argument we should all be stationary.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

My argument isn’t "all or nothing" - it’s mitigating the impact (in many ways) of speed; no one is advocating 10 or 0mph, that’s just a straw man argument.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

I didn't say I did, did I? I said most motorists did not.

I am fed up with cars getting so close to my rear end when obeying the speed limit, some of whom overtake me in a dangerous manner in a bendy residential road.

It should be obvious to everyone (although sadly it isn't) that if you put a ridiculously slow speed limit on a road, most will ignore it. So what's the point, particularly if it actually encourages some to drive much faster and overtake.

Why don't we have a 5mph limit? Maybe with some guy in front holding a red flag, just in case pedestrians about to cross the road don't realise you are actually moving?

Ah yes, they tried that before, didn't they? :D

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

I was talking in general, maybe I should have made that more clear.

It shouldn't be obvious to anyone. That's the problem, too many morons on the road (and in general) who think they can get away with speeding, on the phone, tailgating and just general bad driving. We shouldn't stop with the limits, we should clamp down on motorists more. We aren't cash cows, you're only a cash cow if you're not obeying the law.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

It not just the limit that's the problem, it's the speed driven. The limit is the highest speed you should do and should be set relevant to the fixed conditions. The actual speed should be to the actual conditions not exceeding the limit.

It doesn't matter if the limit is 20/30/40 whatever, if the conditions suggest otherwise (kids playing/crossing/weather) slow down, be aware. The police can fine you under the limit if they believe your speed is inappropriate.

Maybe there should be "variable" limits brought in so when amber lights are on at schools there is a mandatory drop in limit to 20 regardless of the normal limit. This doesn't mean you don't take care if kids are around and the lights are off.

And earlier comments are also true, 20mph limits in our town centre are generally ignored and because it's mostly one-way you will likely get overtaken on either side if you do keep to the limit.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Taxi drivers must be feeling happy. Slower traffic equals more time per journey, so more income for them.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

You're joking aren't you? Some taxi drivers are the worst at speeding.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Maybe between fares, but they always slow down once a fare is on board. Time is money as in "more time, is more money".

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Not around here they don't.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Of course its not a strawman argument, there is nothing magical about 20mph, the same argument could be applied to any speed, 29mph is technically safer than 30mph - and 30mph in itself is 'safer' than when it was first set, as cars doing 30mph can now stop much quicker, and are designed to casue less "damage" to humans if they hit you.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

20 mph in built up areas is fine by me but I would like them to increase the speed limit in motorways...

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Then people would just go faster than the new 'speed limit'.....

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

I think he's referring to the M25 at rush hour!:D:D:D

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

So a snails pace then.;)

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

LOL. :D

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4glzl7e157o

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

A trial of Next Gen Speed Cameras in this city detected 1000's of vehicles above the 20mph limit. But after those under 26mph (the tolerance limit) were discarded, one type of vehicle was found to be regularly exceeding the limit. It was the bin lorries, travelling to-and-from the city tip or recycling centre.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

its a 20 mph zone down my street,but it's next to a set of traffic lights so cars use it as a rat run to avoid the lights and come down here like a bat out of hell .

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

I especially like this bit: Speed limits do not apply to cyclists

I can legally cycle at a speed that will annoy other road users and legally drive under 20mph that will also annoy other road users.

Life's good :angel:

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Until one of them gets you back. ;)

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Dream on. :sleeping:

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Yeah, I know a couple of other muppets who also thought that, then found out bikes dont win against cars.
Made a mess of them, one more than the other. Being a dick just means you eventually meet an even bigger one.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Sigh. Call me old-fashioned but I've never thought of complying with the law as 'being a dick'.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

LOL, I was referring to them. :dozey:

Still, since you mention it .....
You may be "complying with the law" but you're obviously also doing it just to be a bit of 'dick'.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

The most common crime that has police active around here is to ride electric scooters or modified electric bicycles. Quite a few have been confiscated for destruction.

This has caused problems with the illegal drug distribution networks, but also with the time that takeaway food takes to be delivered, as they now have to ride standard bicycles at far less speed than before.

A couple of delivery drivers have had their vehicles impounded too. No licences, insurance, etc. Nabbed as they left a local takeaway.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Er no, I'm complying with the law because it's the law Dick, sorry, I mean Paul.:angel:

I can't be responsible for the composure of other road users, people who become enraged like that are a danger to everyone.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Wales is starting to realise just how stupid this was.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crlxzlr695eo

A general review of the default lower speed limit of 20mph was announced by the Welsh government following significant public backlash.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

A 700 yard stretch of arterial road near me is being returned to 30mph (eventually and at great cost).

But it was a 40mph road under 10 years ago, with only very rare accidents, and those did not involve pedestrians AFAIK.

The 20mph limit has been causing severe traffic problems since it was imposed.

Voters here have long memories, so the next elections should show a big swing against Labour and their allies, Plaid.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

No.

Some parts are realising the 'sledgehammer-to-crack-a-nut' approach was not the best.

In many parts of the country road safety relating to speed has improved significantly and thus is extremely unlikely to change. On that basis the reduction in limit has been a positive move.

That's not to suggest it's been a popular one. 90% of the time it annoys the crap out of me.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

20mph outside schools, nursery’s, hospitals etc, no problem, full support.

But a blanket 20mph is/was just stupid.

It was like covid, regional insignificant assemblies, such as Wales, tried to look powerful, but ended up looking stupid,
.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Yes.

Exactly. Stupid.
Glad we agree after all. ;)

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

No.


You can continue to put words in my mouth all you want, it doesn’t make you any closer to being right.

It wasn’t the best approach, that does not make it universally “stupid”.

Some good has come from this, speed-based fatalities have dropped. If you want to refer to that as “stupid” then perhaps it says more about yourself.

My criticism about this is that it was brought in too widespread and too soon. A whole world away from being “stupid”. Adjustments are being made on certain roads but as it’s being done by a Labour government I’m sure there’ll still be odd individuals who will still criticise it despite speed-based road safety improving (“stupid pedestrians shouldn’t have been on the road in the first place eh??”).

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Yes.

I dont need to be any closer, I'm already there.

I never said anything about Labour, what was that about words and mouth ?
Still, I'm sure if had been done by the Conservatives you would still be defending it.

A blanket change was a stupid idea.
Having realised this they are now backtracking in many places.

You use different words to mean the same thing.
I also notice you skipped Pierre's comments completely.

I'm starting to think you are just arguing with me for the sake of it.


{Dont bother keeping up with Yes/No, You can say No, I can say Yes, it doesnt need repeating again.}

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

I don't support it, three o'clock in the afternoon yes it's reasonable but three o'clock in the morning makes no sense

Re: 20mph in Wales
 

In your own mind, I have no doubts.


You’re quite well-known for being anti-Labour, was it that much of a stretch of the imagination?

A “stupid idea” that made a significant difference to road safety

Pot/kettle/black

Yeah because your post contained more disagreeable content

lol you don’t feature high enough on my personal radar for that. Maybe it’s just because someone on here has no worries with publicly disagreeing with you?

Am I allowed to say “negative” instead?

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

I suspect that all areas where a 20mph limit was a good idea for safety were already at 20mph after the long and expensive use of Traffic Regulation Orders.

Now those that are going to be returned to 30mph have to go through the long and expensive use of Traffic regulation Orders.

We have also seen large sections of motorway and dual carriageways reduced to 50mph. And some National Speed Limit roads have been dropped from 60mph to 50mph. We all expect the latter to spread nationwide.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

Nothing ever stopped council's from using 20mph , but labour don't even trust there local councils to know what's best ?! Guess I agree with them for once:shocked:

Well them thinking they can enforce this is stupid.. I bet people went well over 20.. Hell if no one is watching they probably go near 40!

Re: 20mph in Wales
 

Good to know.

Its not a stretch, its more of a huge leap.
I dont care if it was Labour, Conservatives or the Jedi, it was still a dumb idea.

I note you didnt respond to the other part of my comment.
Would you be defending the Conservatives, had this been implemented by them ?

Something I was once told a long time ago, when submitting projects.
If you cant think of any good reasons, always default to "safety" (or security) concerns.
Based on that as an argument, they should reduce them all to 5 mph, or just make everyone walk.

I said its "Stupid", while Pierre just called it "Stupid". Yes, an obvious difference. :dozey:

Really - thats the road you want to go down ? Ok.
You can disagree all you want if you do it in a proper fashion.
Start with the personal digs and/or trolling, and I'll have no worries dealing with it.

See above.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

:zzz:

As difficult as this may be to conceive, it IS possible for you to be wrong. And yes, that’s the hill I’m happy to remain alive on.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

How many millions of tax payers money was spent on this 20mph idea and conducting reports into it all?
Thankgoodness they are reverting back and it has not spread to the UK.


Soon the local cows and sheep will be going faster than cars.

Re: 20mph in Wales.
 

In some parts of mid and plastic (North) Wales that’s been the way for decades