Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

To complement the Scottish independence thread, I thought that i'd create this for Wales now that calls for independence have resurfaced again:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48059170

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/p...tream-16169784

Apparently, Wales encroaches onto English land, so if Wales does become independent, will England reclaim it's land?

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Well England flooded Welsh land for water so the exchange would be fair.

Will they charge England for the water they export?

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

I'm feeling the need for a 'Will Yorkshire leave the UK ?' thread....

Thing is, if the bottom right hand corner region of UK left, or better still sunk, everyone else would live in peace and harmony.... ;)

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

The Isle of Wight looks vulnerable.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

... and increased poverty.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Does it...

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

It is strange to note that it is the poorer parts of the country where there are those who think they are poorer because of how the UK treats them. Neither Scotland nor Wales have a convincing financial plan to ensure their populations will be as well off if they were granted independence.

The UK is stronger if it is together, but if Wales and Scotland are taken out of the equation, only England would be better off because it would no longer need to support those nations.

Separatists need to put aside emotion and actually tell us where they think their money will come from without Westminster bailing them out before they start treading that path.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

An economy built on coal and sheep, but nobody wants the coal any more.

Welsh nationalism is absurd. It is blind hatred of England rooted in the medieval dynastic struggles of the 13th and 14th centuries (which Wales lost, while Scotland held its own).

Scotland today can make an economic and political case for leaving the UK, even though that case is very difficult. Wales simply can’t. The Plaidos’ plan, such as it is, is to throw Wales as a supplicant at the EU’s feet and have Germany pay for everything via the regional development fund.

Scotland today is a distinct legal entity with a body of law deliberately preserved by the Acts of Union 1707 - Acts plural, as they were passed by the English and Scottish parliaments separately following a treaty between the two. The result of those Acts was the permanent dissolution of both the English and Scottish Parliaments and the creation of a new British one, which continued to legislate separately for Scottish and English matters. Wales, on the other hand, had been annexed by the process of warring noble houses that was commonplace in Europe at the time. The Prince of Wales had been defeated and his crown became a gift of the English monarch ... to this day, a gift normally conferred on the monarch’s heir. The annexation of Wales as part of England was completed by Acts of the English Parliament in the mid 16th century. These extended English law to Wales. This is why Ireland, Scotland and England are represented in the union flag but Wales is not. It is there indirectly, because the Welsh crown is the English crown. Distasteful to some Welsh people I know, but that’s been the legal reality for the best part of 500 years.

The upshot of this is, there is still a union between distinct legal entities within Great Britain, namely England and Scotland, which make it at least possible to discuss how they might be separated. Despite the existence of the Welsh assembly, and its very limited ability to pass primary legislation, there is not a distinct legal entity called Wales that can be identified and whose separation from England could easily be planned. It is an entirely different proposition.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

The only growing economy in Wales is Welsh teachers and translators, as all pupils are obliged by law to learn Welsh, and are therfore counted as "Welsh speakers" for the rest of their lives even if they never use the language again.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Funded from the public purse, so not exactly a money making exercise after independence. Just another drag on the economy.

How will Wales actually make money to fund public services and prosper outside the UK? That is the question Welsh people have to ask themselves.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

They don’t have to ask themselves that, because only a tiny number of them vote Plaid and I suspect not even all of them actually want Wales to separate from the UK.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

:tu:

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

There have been renewed calls for Welsh independence if another Brexit vote isn't held. I think it's worthy of discussion, why don't you?

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

I live in Lincolnshire as far as we are concerned Yorkshire has never been in the UK;)

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

No. If you have any understanding of Welsh politics in the slightest you would understand that.

There are renewed calls for all sorts of crackpot ideas every day of the week. Welsh independence is one of them.

I mean go on talking about it if you want but it is a genuinely pointless topic.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

:tu:

Ditto the Welsh Assembly. It only exists because there was very little information explaining it's role and powers before the referendum. Many did not vote as they had no idea that it would push for independence. And most are not daft enough to believe it would be of any benefit to the country.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Because it wouldn't work and appears to be supported only by a relatively small minority in Wales.

Until they can make a financial case for it, there is no case to answer. It's just another diversion from the more serious issues we should be contemplating.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

It is unlikely to happen I agree, but sometimes unlikely things do happen.

Todays Afternoon Play on Radio 4 was about what would happen if the UK was broken up, unfortunately I forgot to record it.

I really do wonder whether, if it did happen, the Government of the day would try to mitigate the loss by taking back the part of Wales that is encroaching on England, or whether they would let it go for fear of upsetting the Welsh population.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

If I were Wales I'd give England Prestatyn and maybe Rhyl. No questions asked ;)

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

As it's not going to happen, there's not much point in wondering about it.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Should be available on BBC sounds for the next 30 days.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Overdoing the generalisations there a bit ;)

I'm a Welsh nationalist but anyone suggesting I have a hatred (or even a dislike) of England would firstly have to get around the fact my father was half English, as is my son.

Do I want Wales to be self-governing? No, and not just for the reasons you've stated. I do think the UK is stronger if we are united.

Nobody I know of around here wants us to leave the UK.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Ditto Sturgeon and the SNP, always wittering-on about independence. But fair game, their Party only stands for one thing.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Thanks :)

---------- Post added at 18:57 ---------- Previous post was at 18:55 ----------

Seems odd to enter and contribute to a "silly topic".

---------- Post added at 18:58 ---------- Previous post was at 18:57 ----------

It might happen. Nobody thought that people would vote to leave the EU, but they did.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

As far as Yorkshire is concerned, Lincolnshire has never been in the current century... ;)

(I spent 4 years of my Service career in Lincolnshire, and it was interesting to see how many of the locals seemed to be related)

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

I’m appealing to a fairly widely understood definition of political nationalism here, which I don’t think is controversial given the thread title. By that yardstick you’re not a nationalist at all, but given that Wales has tended to assert its nationhood culturally rather than politically I guess it’s not surprising for Welsh people to consider themselves nationalist without the accompanying political ambitions for the nation.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

With respect that's for me to decide and nobody else. I may not fall in to your definition but still, that doesn't make any difference :tu:

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

No, it won't happen, because the economics doesn't stand up. What is the justification?

Give the Welsh credit for having some common sense.

---------- Post added at 01:38 ---------- Previous post was at 01:35 ----------

Hi, Russ. I'm not really understanding your reasons for describing yourself as a Welsh nationalist, given the view you have expressed in your post. Could you help me out here?

---------- Post added at 01:39 ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 ----------

I don't think so, Richard.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

It's simple. Russ is proud of being Welsh and quite rightly so. Not everyone in Wales or Scotland and Northern Ireland wants to leave the UK.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Broadly speaking I want the best deals and outcomes for Wales. I want Wales to be more recognised on the world stage. I want Wales to be promoted more around the world - this of course being hampered by the fact WA members have all the negotiating and strategic tactics of the 2 guards from Monty Python's Holy Grail.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

With respect, no it isn't. It's a question of the definitions of words. You think and feel certain things about your country and your citizenship. I'm not presuming to tell you how you should think or feel about those things. I can, and do, however, insist that in a public discussion it is reasonable for us to stick to the widely understood definitions of words in the English language.

Wikipedia's definition of 'nationalism' is:

As that is not your ambition for your homeland, you are not a nationalist. Again, that is not to denigrate your feelings towards Wales and Welshness in any way. To be properly understood in discussion, however, you do have to pick a word that properly defines your position. 'Nationalist' is the wrong word.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

With respect, yes it very much is.

Chris, this is very much unlike you.

From dictionary.com:

identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations

There are some ways in which I want Wales to benefit over others. There's nothing wrong with that in a competitive world.

You choose to take 'nationalist' on one definition, I chose to take it as another.

At best you should have settled for us having different ways of using the word. As someone who has lived here for over 35 years (I'm aware you too have spend some time here) I'm fully aware of the skewered view people have of Welsh nationalism which may well have been appropriate in the 70s/80s/90s but does not accurately (or even closely) represent it today.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Wales has a much stronger national identity than England, with a thriving language and better Rugby team ;)
Don't think they need independence, it's England that has the problems with nationalism.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

As I said ... I’m arguing entirely about the meaning of words, not the way Welsh people see themselves or their nation. You’re right, I lived and worked there, and the degree certificate on my wall says as much (yn Gymraeg).

Given the way I described it I’m pretty sure you know exactly the sort of person/political outlook I had in mind when I said “Welsh nationalism”, even if you disagree with my choice to use the word “nationalism” in that way. I guess this is just what happens when people insist on different definitions of common words. You can be sure that here in Scotland the word is only ever understood in one way.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

In which case the meaning you subscribe to needs to change urgently and be seen as greatly outdated. Meanings of words evolve over time and certainly 'nationalist' has when it comes to the Welsh.

Yes I have met the type of person you're trying to describe, it was a long time ago. Scarce then and even more rare now. I can't and won't pretend to know every Welsh person but nobody I know can be described that way given the desire for self-governance has all but died out.

If people who ought to know better want to cling to an out-dated expression then fine but they'll rightly get called out for it.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

I'll drink to that!

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

It would be harder for Wales to leave the UK as it is a lot less devolved than Scotland. The parliament in Scotland has a lot more power and control over taxes, the NHS policing and many other things.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Wales cannot survive on its own economically. Scotland would be much worse off economically.

Splitting up the UK does not make economic sense for either of them. It's all based on emotion.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Which part of England?

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

That hasn't escaped all of us! :D

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

The usual part.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Yep, keep paying your taxes so we can continue having free prescriptions :rofl:

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Well, at least you've now acknowledged that the rest of the country needs 'the usual part' to prosper economically.

That is more than the separatists seem able to grasp, anyway! :D

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Mainly because most of the infrastructure funding has been focused there, creating a self-fulfilling cycle.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Prescriptions are free in Wales not through some great socialist ideal, but because it was shown that the system to collect prescription fees cost more than the prescription fees they received.

" Less government money is spent for each person in Wales than in Scotland or Northern Ireland."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-35977052

---------- Post added at 16:58 ---------- Previous post was at 16:54 ----------

The WA is sneaking-in Minimum Unit Pricing for Alcohol "sometime this summer" after "public consultation".

In other words, they just mirror a lot of what Scotland does, but nothing that costs too much WA money. But more usually hitting Joe Public in the pocket.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Scotland has some properly remote communities and a demographic mix that means it does actually cost money to provide free prescriptions; more than the cost of collecting charges. It would have cost a whole lot more to means test prescription charges (although the exemption cards for those on low incomes are still distributed in Scotland, so those with the dearest need could always get them free). It isn’t a socialist ideal here either, it’s an electoral bribe that forms part of the SNP’s strategy of differentiation.

Oh, and the first evidence since the introduction of minimum unit pricing in Scotland is that it doesn’t work. Grog consumption hasn’t gone down. In fact it’s gone up slightly, though of course the hardliners will claim that without the policy it might have gone up by more.

Oddly, I just checked in two Dutch people at my B&B who were bemoaning British alcohol licensing laws. In the course of the conversation they revealed that they had heard the Welsh were the hardest drinkers in the UK. Make of that what you will ...

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Yeah, yeah.

The SE, of course, is where the bulk of the population is located.

It's not like the government is averse to funding the north. It was the Conservatives who launched the Northern Powerhouse. They are trying to put right a century of underfunding.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

Yeah yeah, and the bulk of the population is located there because of the money pumped into infrastructure - self-fulfilling cycle...

It’s like most doctors and lawyers come from families that have doctors and lawyers as parents - it’s easier because of the environment...

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

And apparently it's been shown that FPOC medical issues (the kind of thing you'd go to your GP to deal with) have reportedly come down over the years as prescription medicines are now easier to obtain.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

And there was I thinking my Welsh OH was a hard drinker due to being in the navy..:D

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

And a greater part of the poulation is there because it's close to the capital.

I'm sure that the better climate has a lot to do with it as well.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

While the southeast is the driest and almost the warmest, there really isn’t enough of a difference between there and most other places in the UK to make an appreciable difference. It’s hardly like choosing Florida over Rhode Island.

And most people don’t need to be near to the capital just because it’s the capital. Washington DC or Canberra don’t attract vast numbers of people, because those cities exist in capital territories, designed for those administrative functions and little else.

The problem we have in the UK is that since we shifted from an industrial economy to one led by services, especially financial services, the greater part of our economic activity is in the city that has the lead in that area. That is London. I once had a long chat with someone high up in Boots plc who was bemoaning the fact that despite being a Nottingham headquartered company, they had to maintain significant operations in London and ensure the London stores were always the most up to date because the investment analysts were all in London and were notoriously lazy about making research trips outside the city. If you wanted their good opinion, and the best investment at the best rates, you have little choice but to go where the money is.

While I argue that it’s its dominance as a financial centre rather than it being the capital city that gives London such a major advantage, there are things governments can do to decentralise and create centres of activity around which other businesses can accumulate, but the problem is that successive governments have done little or nothing to promote decentralisation, though where it is pushed it’s possible to see what a difference it can make - Media City in Salford would be a good example, as it’s the BBC’s presence there that provides the stability for everything else to grow around it.

Re: Will Wales leave the UK? Will it be reduced in size if it does?
 

This ^^^^

And whilst the Northern Powerhouse initiative is starting to make a difference, there's a long way to go.

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/five-yea...work-progress/ It's good for the whole country if the wealth is spread around - then there are fewer complaints about subsiding the North.