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Maggy 01-04-2019 09:57
Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47768631

Quote:
Teachers, NHS workers and police officers could be held accountable for failing to spot violent crime among young people under government plans announced on Monday.

Home Secretary Sajid Javid has launched a consultation to assess whether there is a "public health duty" to report concerns over children at risk.
I'm incensed by this..Why don't we hold THIS government to account for the endless unrelenting austerity that sees all these people under resourced and underfunded? It's a good job that I have to watch my language here.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

denphone 01-04-2019 10:00
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Typical of this government always absolving themselves of their responsibilities and making sure others get the blame instead.:(:td:

Carth 01-04-2019 10:54
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Another great idea by those far removed from reality :dunce:

I'm sure it will be a massive boost to the recruitment of Teachers, NHS staff etc :rolleyes:

Halcyon 01-04-2019 11:00
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Is this for real?!


I work in a school and my wife in the NHS and I can say the amount of education, safeguarding and help we give to young people goes above and beyond.


Yet another way to pass the blame whilst MP's relax in their villas abroad oblivious to the way the world really works.
It's time to completely scrap this whole government.

nomadking 01-04-2019 11:15
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
While May is totally inept and this is yet another example of it, Labour and the LibDems would make matters worse. Just look at the names and pictures of the culprits to see what the underlying problem is, and which governments have been disproportionately responsible for it.

Maggy 01-04-2019 13:30
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35989417)
While May is totally inept and this is yet another example of it, Labour and the LibDems would make matters worse. Just look at the names and pictures of the culprits to see what the underlying problem is, and which governments have been disproportionately responsible for it.
It's THIS government that's under discussion and it's their suggestion not the previous governments.

nomadking 01-04-2019 13:34
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35989437)
It's THIS government that's under discussion and it's their suggestion not the previous governments.
The culprits haven't suddenly materialised out of nowhere. The actions and inactions of the past affect the present and future.

denphone 01-04-2019 13:37
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35989440)
The culprits haven't suddenly materialised out of nowhere. The actions and inactions of the past affect the present and future.
We are not talking about the past though as we are talking about the present day government unless you want to pretend that some of their policies and their decisions from those policies don't actually do any damage across the country.

Maggy 01-04-2019 13:39
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Seriously? More whataboutism? I'm incensed as a teacher that professional colleagues will be legally liable for missing some student involved in knife crime when they are already overworked and under resourced when their job is to EDUCATE not police their students.

Carth 01-04-2019 14:01
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35989442)
I'm incensed as a teacher that professional colleagues will be legally liable for missing some student involved in knife crime when they are already overworked and under resourced when their job is to EDUCATE not police their students.
:clap:

papa smurf 01-04-2019 14:16
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35989442)
Seriously? More whataboutism? I'm incensed as a teacher that professional colleagues will be legally liable for missing some student involved in knife crime when they are already overworked and under resourced when their job is to EDUCATE not police their students.
They have plenty of time to police haircuts clothing and shoes :shrug:

nomadking 01-04-2019 14:38
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
I would really like to know SPECIFICALLY and EXPLICITLY, what the Police or anybody else could do in order to prevent any incident. A 10 fold increase in Police numbers wouldn't solve a thing. They can't be everywhere, or is everybody going to be provided with multiple 24/7 bodyguards?


Basicially it's TOO late to solve it. The damage has been done.

Taf 01-04-2019 16:35
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Smacking is about to be made illegal in Wales. So that is another reason we are going to see more feral kids in the future IMHO. Discipline should be the parents' responsibility, not teachers or police, but so may parents were undisciplined that that's unlikely to happen.

Maggy 01-04-2019 16:44
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35989448)
They have plenty of time to police haircuts clothing and shoes :shrug:
Which is part of preparing students for real life in the workplace.

mrmistoffelees 01-04-2019 17:51
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35989450)
I would really like to know SPECIFICALLY and EXPLICITLY, what the Police or anybody else could do in order to prevent any incident. A 10 fold increase in Police numbers wouldn't solve a thing. They can't be everywhere, or is everybody going to be provided with multiple 24/7 bodyguards?


Basicially it's TOO late to solve it. The damage has been done.
That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a considerable effort by the Police to repair as much of the damage as possible and to minimize any further damage. Perhaps their needs to be consideration of resource deployment etc.

budget dependencies/prioritization of course.

The teacher/NHS part is nonsense.

---------- Post added at 16:51 ---------- Previous post was at 16:50 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35989472)
Which is part of preparing students for real life in the workplace.
Got to disagree on this one, if this is still being done it's archaic.

papa smurf 01-04-2019 18:33
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35989472)
Which is part of preparing students for real life in the workplace.
Glad to say all of the Victorian schools in my area have been repurposed .

OLD BOY 01-04-2019 20:13
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35989442)
Seriously? More whataboutism? I'm incensed as a teacher that professional colleagues will be legally liable for missing some student involved in knife crime when they are already overworked and under resourced when their job is to EDUCATE not police their students.
Doctors are legally obliged to report bullet injuries to the police, aren't they? Doctors are also overworked and lack resources.

I was overworked and lacked resources in my last employment but I couldn't use that excuse not to obey whatever additional duties imposed on me.

Sorry, Maggy, it's not that I don't sympathise, but teachers are not the only employees who are overstretched. This is the case in many occupations, particularly in the public services.

I'm just glad I am now retired!

---------- Post added at 19:13 ---------- Previous post was at 19:12 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcyon (Post 35989413)
Is this for real?!


I work in a school and my wife in the NHS and I can say the amount of education, safeguarding and help we give to young people goes above and beyond.


Yet another way to pass the blame whilst MP's relax in their villas abroad oblivious to the way the world really works.
It's time to completely scrap this whole government.
Labour would only add to the bureaucracy, so that isn't a solution.

nomadking 01-04-2019 20:18
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35989480)
That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a considerable effort by the Police to repair as much of the damage as possible and to minimize any further damage. Perhaps their needs to be consideration of resource deployment etc.

budget dependencies/prioritization of course.

The teacher/NHS part is nonsense.

---------- Post added at 16:51 ---------- Previous post was at 16:50 ----------


Got to disagree on this one, if this is still being done it's archaic.
The Police cannot be always at the right time and place. Ridiculous for people to keep going on about Police numbers without addressing the real problem.



Diane Abbott sent her son to public school to get away from the malign influence of her constituents.
Quote:
I knew what could happen to my son if he was sent to the wrong school and got in with the wrong crowd. I realised they were subjected to peer *pressure and when that happens it’s very hard for a mother to save her son.
Trevor Phillips
Quote:
This attack is the latest in a senseless war between gangs — almost all comprised of black or Asian youngsters.
...

My own affluent North London street is surrounded by estates populated in part by the ethnic groups whose names feature in virtually every report of the violence: Somalis, Ethiopians, North and Central Africans, Afghans.
...
Depressingly, I would hardly change a word of my advice to Gordon Brown when he reached out to me after a spate of killings 12 years back.

mrmistoffelees 01-04-2019 20:46
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35989507)
The Police cannot be always at the right time and place. Ridiculous for people to keep going on about Police numbers without addressing the real problem.



Diane Abbott sent her son to public school to get away from the malign influence of her constituents.
Trevor Phillips
Put the numbers of officers that have been lost in the past few years back into service and they can obviously be in more places than now. That’s a no brainier

Redeploy and prioritise better and you could stop even more

nomadking 01-04-2019 21:14
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35989513)
Put the numbers of officers that have been lost in the past few years back into service and they can obviously be in more places than now. That’s a no brainier

Redeploy and prioritise better and you could stop even more
Let's suppose for the sake of your ridiculous argument, that they on ONE instance(and it's very unlikely to be more than that) they can be in the right place at the right time, any attack will simply take place at another place and time.


Hate to break it to you, but potential criminals are not sitting at home waiting for the latest figures on Police numbers before deciding whether to go out and commit crime.:rolleyes:


Diane Abbott sent her son away in 2003, and Trevor Phillips said there was a big problem with knife crime 12 years ago.
Quote:
Mr Phillips said that when refugees from Somalia and the Congo first arrived in the UK during the last Labour Government, he urged special measures to address the problem, such as therapy.
...
‘It was obvious that if we didn’t act we would pay a heavy price. Sadly, they were mainly just dumped in schools and we expected them to behave just like other children. Now we see the consequences.’
Link from 2017

Quote:
What advantage does the next level bring? “Power, status, girls, especially girls.” Did Wayne, who is black British, think you have to be more aggressive today than in the past to earn your stripes? “In the last 10 years, since the Somalis and the Congolese came to London, they taught us a whole new level of violence,” he said.
...
It upped the speed and level of violence for us British-born guys. We had to arm up to protect ourselves. It created an upward spiral.”
They then go on to have lots of kids who in turn eventually add to the numbers.

mrmistoffelees 01-04-2019 21:31
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35989523)
Let's suppose for the sake of your ridiculous argument, that they on ONE instance(and it's very unlikely to be more than that) they can be in the right place at the right time, any attack will simply take place at another place and time.


Hate to break it to you, but potential criminals are not sitting at home waiting for the latest figures on Police numbers before deciding whether to go out and commit crime.:rolleyes:


Diane Abbott sent her son away in 2003, and Trevor Phillips said there was a big problem with knife crime 12 years ago.
Link from 2017

They then go on to have lots of kids who in turn eventually add to the numbers.
Your hypothesis would be right apart from your basing it on the criminals constantly knowing the deployment status and location of officers. Which of course they don’t a great deal of the time.

If you don’t get that a higher amount of officers on the ground coupled with the increase in stop and search would lead to a reduction on current levels of offences then I don’t know what else to say to you

nomadking 01-04-2019 21:47
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35989531)
Your hypothesis would be right apart from your basing it on the criminals constantly knowing the deployment status and location of officers. Which of course they don’t a great deal of the time.

If you don’t get that a higher amount of officers on the ground coupled with the increase in stop and search would lead to a reduction on current levels of offences then I don’t know what else to say to you
Not my hypothesis. Only logical conclusion from the nonsense about there being a direct link between Police numbers and crime.


They have to be allowed to "stop and search" in the first place. Who was responsible for the reduction in that? Still doesn't lock them up, never mind also throwing away the key.


They and their associates(whether active or passive, eg girlfriends) should be locked up. That should make being part of such a gang an unattractive option.

Maggy 01-04-2019 23:38
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35989504)
Doctors are legally obliged to report bullet injuries to the police, aren't they? Doctors are also overworked and lack resources.

I was overworked and lacked resources in my last employment but I couldn't use that excuse not to obey whatever additional duties imposed on me.

Sorry, Maggy, it's not that I don't sympathise, but teachers are not the only employees who are overstretched. This is the case in many occupations, particularly in the public services.

I'm just glad I am now retired!

---------- Post added at 19:13 ---------- Previous post was at 19:12 ----------



Labour would only add to the bureaucracy, so that isn't a solution.
Then expect to see fewer teachers. I certainly wouldn't have entered the profession if that had been the case.

TheDaddy 02-04-2019 09:03
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35989472)
Which is part of preparing students for real life in the workplace.
As would not stabbing their future colleagues be presumably. I think it's worth looking at and think the Saj deserves credit for thinking outside the box and bringing all agencies together to try and tackle it, who knows it might not work but let's not shoot or stab the messenger before it's even been looked at to see how feasible or practical it is to implement. Mrs May is correct to say we can't arrest our way out of this crisis but imo it'd be a start

Halcyon 02-04-2019 10:13
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Having had time to think about this I think there is some sense to it to some degree.
We (those that work in education) spend a lot of the day with children so there is more chance of us to witness something wrong in a child.
An example would be seeing bruises on a child when they are doing PE or a child that is talking about certain subjects which they shouldn't be exposed to at that age.
We can pick up on certain things. It is our duty to report any concerns to the designated safeguarding lead in the school.


However I dont think we have time to be checking all children for knives or checking their bags for drugs every day of the week.
Parents have a responsibility to police their children....otherwise known as giving them a good upbringing. They have to play a part in this. It cant be left to teachers.


The police are doing their bit but maybe they need to put more resources into it.
Im now in Primary but when I worked in Secondary we regularly had assemblies with police officers coming to talk about sexual consent and knife crime, arson, etc. So they are getting out there.

Maggy 02-04-2019 10:15
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35989596)
As would not stabbing their future colleagues be presumably. I think it's worth looking at and think the Saj deserves credit for thinking outside the box and bringing all agencies together to try and tackle it, who knows it might not work but let's not shoot or stab the messenger before it's even been looked at to see how feasible or practical it is to implement. Mrs May is correct to say we can't arrest our way out of this crisis but imo it'd be a start
I don't think it's worth looking at. It's already hard enough recruiting teachers so placing this legal requirement on them won't help with that.

nomadking 02-04-2019 10:46
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Apparently:-
Quote:
It would be very similar to the system in Glasgow, formerly the knife crime capital of
Europe, where stab wounds have halved in 12 years.
It also mirrors the anti-terrorism Prevent strategy, set up in 2006, which is used to
identify youngsters at risk of being sucked into extremism.
Under the Glasgow model, gang members and those at risk of joining gangs are referred
to violence reduction units. There, they are offered mentoring by someone with similar
experiences of violence or given opportunities to further their education.
Although the difference in demographics might make it less likely to work in London.

Maggy 02-04-2019 13:05
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcyon (Post 35989606)
Having had time to think about this I think there is some sense to it to some degree.
We (those that work in education) spend a lot of the day with children so there is more chance of us to witness something wrong in a child.
An example would be seeing bruises on a child when they are doing PE or a child that is talking about certain subjects which they shouldn't be exposed to at that age.
We can pick up on certain things. It is our duty to report any concerns to the designated safeguarding lead in the school.


However I dont think we have time to be checking all children for knives or checking their bags for drugs every day of the week.
Parents have a responsibility to police their children....otherwise known as giving them a good upbringing. They have to play a part in this. It cant be left to teachers.


The police are doing their bit but maybe they need to put more resources into it.
Im now in Primary but when I worked in Secondary we regularly had assemblies with police officers coming to talk about sexual consent and knife crime, arson, etc. So they are getting out there.
:clap:

Hugh 02-04-2019 13:54
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
I wonder if they will bring a law in making parents accountable over youth crime?

TheDaddy 02-04-2019 17:17
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35989638)
I wonder if they will bring a law in making parents accountable over youth crime?
The parents should definitely have been included in the saj's review somehow imo, ultimately the buck stops with them

heero_yuy 02-04-2019 19:18
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Quote from TheDaddy:

The parents should definitely have been included in the saj's review somehow imo, ultimately the buck stops with them
It's about time the Chavs were bought to book for their evil offspring.

nomadking 02-04-2019 19:25
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35989691)
It's about time the Chavs were bought to book for their evil offspring.
It's not really the "Chavs" doing the stabbing, shooting, etc.

OLD BOY 02-04-2019 20:54
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcyon (Post 35989606)
Having had time to think about this I think there is some sense to it to some degree.
We (those that work in education) spend a lot of the day with children so there is more chance of us to witness something wrong in a child.
An example would be seeing bruises on a child when they are doing PE or a child that is talking about certain subjects which they shouldn't be exposed to at that age.
We can pick up on certain things. It is our duty to report any concerns to the designated safeguarding lead in the school.


However I dont think we have time to be checking all children for knives or checking their bags for drugs every day of the week.
Parents have a responsibility to police their children....otherwise known as giving them a good upbringing. They have to play a part in this. It cant be left to teachers.


The police are doing their bit but maybe they need to put more resources into it.
Im now in Primary but when I worked in Secondary we regularly had assemblies with police officers coming to talk about sexual consent and knife crime, arson, etc. So they are getting out there.
I don't think anyone suggested that, or have I missed something?

Halcyon 03-04-2019 14:54
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35989716)
I don't think anyone suggested that, or have I missed something?



I'm just saying there are things such as those I listed that parents have to do too, not just teachers who have enough to be getting on with.

OLD BOY 03-04-2019 19:33
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcyon (Post 35989826)
I'm just saying there are things such as those I listed that parents have to do too, not just teachers who have enough to be getting on with.
I wouldn't disagree. What I am saying is that teachers cannot be allowed to turn a blind eye. All the various agencies need to work together to identify obvious causes for concerns such as crimes and domestic abuse.

No employee should be allowed to get away with a 'jobsworth' approach.

Maggy 03-04-2019 23:42
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35989856)
I wouldn't disagree. What I am saying is that teachers cannot be allowed to turn a blind eye. All the various agencies need to work together to identify obvious causes for concerns such as crimes and domestic abuse.

No employee should be allowed to get away with a 'jobsworth' approach.
Agreed but it shouldn't come down to LEGAL responsibility. Moral perhaps yes but not legal.

OLD BOY 04-04-2019 08:44
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35989881)
Agreed but it shouldn't come down to LEGAL responsibility. Moral perhaps yes but not legal.
So if a subsequent inquiry into the death of a child concludes that a teacher knew full well that a child was in danger and did nothing about it, you think there should be no consequences for that teacher because teachers are only there to teach?

That is not a position most people would find acceptable.

Maggy 04-04-2019 09:55
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
I cannot imagine that any teacher would ignore such a situation..I'm just saying that it's not NECESSARY to make it a legal requirement.

TheDaddy 04-04-2019 10:55
Re: Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35989904)
I cannot imagine that any teacher would ignore such a situation..I'm just saying that it's not NECESSARY to make it a legal requirement.
I dare say you couldn't imagine any teacher molesting children either, doesn't mean it doesn't or didn't happen


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