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-   -   Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33707336)

Hugh 27-01-2019 13:33
Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
Quote:
Five per cent of UK adults do not believe the Holocaust took place and one in 12 believes its scale has been exaggerated, a survey has found.

The poll of more than 2,000 people was carried out by Opinion Matters for the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust (HMDT).

Almost two-thirds of respondents could not say how many Jews were murdered or "grossly" under-estimated the number
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47015184

I suppose the problem is that since it is no longer in living memory* for the vast majority of the U.K. population, I (kind of) understand why people wouldn’t know the numbers murdered, but I find the figure of 1 in 20 not believing that the Holocaust happened quite shocking.

*93% of the current U.K. population were born after 1945

nomadking 27-01-2019 14:02
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
One of my big gripes is that they keep denying the 5 million Slavs killed. That is the bigger denial.


Link.

Quote:
Approximately 11 million people were killed because of Nazi genocidal policy.
5 million of those murdered were non-Jewish
...
Christian Poles and other Slavs, notably Ukrainians and Byelorussians, were also primary targets of Nazi Germany hatred during World War II.To the Nazis, the Slavs were considered Untermenschen,or subhumans, and nothing more than obstacles to gaining territory necessary for the superior German race.

Hugh 27-01-2019 14:15
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
Where in that link (or elsewhere) is it denied, and who are ‘they’ that are denying it?

At the bottom of the page linked to in the OP, there was this link - https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/16690175

Quote:
The Nazis also killed other groups of people, including Roma ('gypsies') and disabled people. They also arrested and took away the rights of other groups, like gay people and political opponents. Many of them died as a result of their treatment.
Quote:
Who was killed or persecuted in the Holocaust?
We know that the victims included:

Jewish people
Roma and Sinti people ('Gypsies')
Slavic people, especially in the Soviet Union, Poland and Yugoslavia.
Disabled people
Gay people
Black people
Jehovah's Witnesses
Political opponents
Quote:
Holocaust Memorial Day is not only to remember the millions of victims of the Holocaust, but also those who have been killed in other genocides around the world

nomadking 27-01-2019 14:30
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35980969)
Where in that link (or elsewhere) is it denied, and who set ‘they’ that are denying it?
So when are the 5 million Slavs ever included? They are rarely mentioned and usually just in a larger list of categories.



Eg OP's article
Quote:
Survivors, politicians and members of the public will remember the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust, while also marking the 25th anniversary of the Rwandan genocide and 40 years since the end of the genocide in Cambodia.
5 million is not an unsubstantial number, especially when progress on the Eastern front reduced the potential final number.

denphone 27-01-2019 14:47
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35980960)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47015184

I suppose the problem is that since it is no longer in living memory* for the vast majority of the U.K. population, I (kind of) understand why people wouldn’t know the numbers murdered, but I find the figure of 1 in 20 not believing that the Holocaust happened quite shocking.

*93% of the current U.K. population were born after 1945
Sadly l cannot say l am surprised given some of the appalling ignorance there is out there.

nomadking 27-01-2019 14:51
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35980969)
Where in that link (or elsewhere) is it denied, and who are ‘they’ that are denying it?

At the bottom of the page linked to in the OP, there was this link - https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/16690175
3rd in the list and no mention of numbers.

Denial isn't just about directly disputing something, but also omitting something because it doesn't suit an agenda.

If you went out on the streets and ask how many were killed, the biggest "vote" will be for 6 million. Little publicity is given to the 5 million.

With the internet it is easy to search for RARE mentions. If the biggest number of people refer to 6 million, then the biggest number of people are technically "deniers" because of the missing 5 million. Not their fault as the 5 million are so rarely mentioned and where they are the number is not mentioned.

Quote:
Although Jews were the Nazis' main target, a wide range of other groups were persecuted during the Holocaust, including gay people, minority races, political opponents like communists and trade unionists, and Jehovah's Witnesses. A quarter of a million mentally ill and disabled people and half a million Roma (also known as gypsies) were killed.
Slavs missing from that list.

Quote:
The plan was partially realized during the war, resulting directly and indirectly in the death of 9.4 to 11.4 million ethnic Slavs by starvation, disease, execution or extermination through labor,

Carth 27-01-2019 16:03
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
To be honest, I'm 64 and couldn't really guess the numbers killed, or all the nationalities of them.

I do know that it happened though, and it was a terrible thing.

Perhaps the PC world we live in has a bearing on the younger generations knowledge of such matters, there are many subjects which get little mention due to the 'sensitive' nature of them.

denphone 27-01-2019 16:25
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
Are events like the Holocaust taught in school?.

Maggy 27-01-2019 16:31
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
History is a subject that gets dropped by some students in year 10 because they choose to do the other humanities for GCSE. I know from my own experience that many found modern history somewhat boring and a bit of a turn off..

Plus some on the the internet know how to twist facts for the gullible among those who have been poorly educated.It's not just Muslim jihadists that target the vulnerable and lost.

TheDaddy 27-01-2019 16:33
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35980966)
One of my big gripes is that they keep denying the 5 million Slavs killed. That is the bigger denial.


Link.
11 million Chinese civilians were murdered by the Japanese in horrifically similar ways to the Nazis and they never get a mention, the Japanese even tried to erase it from their children's school books recently. Up to 2 million German mainly women and children died when the east was ethnically cleansed at the end of the war to, it's okay though, those children were Nazis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35980981)
To be honest, I'm 64 and couldn't really guess the numbers killed, or all the nationalities of them.

I do know that it happened though, and it was a terrible thing.

Perhaps the PC world we live in has a bearing on the younger generations knowledge of such matters, there are many subjects which get little mention due to the 'sensitive' nature of them.
I've heard this said a few times now, that it never happened or the numbers were hugely exageratted and challenged the person saying it on every occasion and on every occasion it was a Muslim saying it. Sadly only on one occasion did I even remotely get through to them. I wondered how prevalent these opinions were in the Muslim community at the time and looking at these figures I'd say pretty widespread.

Hugh 27-01-2019 16:40
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35980981)
To be honest, I'm 64 and couldn't really guess the numbers killed, or all the nationalities of them.

I do know that it happened though, and it was a terrible thing.

Perhaps the PC world we live in has a bearing on the younger generations knowledge of such matters, there are many subjects which get little mention due to the 'sensitive' nature of them.
I’m 62, and both my children* were taught it in Key Stage 3 (ages 11-14), and it is still the only compulsory part of the History curriculum.

https://www.het.org.uk/about/holocaust-education-uk

*who are now 31 and 27

nomadking 27-01-2019 19:31
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35980990)
11 million Chinese civilians were murdered by the Japanese in horrifically similar ways to the Nazis and they never get a mention, the Japanese even tried to erase it from their children's school books recently. Up to 2 million German mainly women and children died when the east was ethnically cleansed at the end of the war to, it's okay though, those children were Nazis



I've heard this said a few times now, that it never happened or the numbers were hugely exageratted and challenged the person saying it on every occasion and on every occasion it was a Muslim saying it. Sadly only on one occasion did I even remotely get through to them. I wondered how prevalent these opinions were in the Muslim community at the time and looking at these figures I'd say pretty widespread.
The context we're talking about is Germany and WW2. If you're talking in general, then you would have to include the actions of Stalin and Mao.

Hugh 27-01-2019 19:57
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
The context for Holocaust Memorial Day is genocide, not mass murder.
Quote:
Holocaust Memorial Day Trust (HMDT) encourages remembrance in a world scarred by genocide. We promote and support Holocaust Memorial Day (HMD) – the international day on 27 January to remember the six million Jews murdered during the Holocaust, the millions of people killed under Nazi Persecution and in subsequent genocides in Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia and Darfur.

TheDaddy 27-01-2019 20:22
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35981000)
The context we're talking about is Germany and WW2. If you're talking in general, then you would have to include the actions of Stalin and Mao.
Why wouldn't you include them? As far as shits go they were two of the biggest and those Chinese were murdered in WW2 btw

Damien 27-01-2019 20:53
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35980984)
Are events like the Holocaust taught in school?.
It was for me. With some depth too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35980990)
11 million Chinese civilians were murdered by the Japanese in horrifically similar ways to the Nazis and they never get a mention, the Japanese even tried to erase it from their children's school books recently. Up to 2 million German mainly women and children died when the east was ethnically cleansed at the end of the war to, it's okay though, those children were Nazis
Japanese actions in China and elsewhere in Asia do get mentioned sometimes but a lot less. I think it's natural that people know a lot more about historical events in their own cultures than others though. We were involved a lot more in the European front and are more closely connected in terms of culture and history to Europe than Asia.

In the same way people in the street around the UK are much more likely to name a historic French monarch, or an infamous European battle, than they are to name a Japanese emperor.

nomadking 27-01-2019 22:20
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
From OP's article.
Quote:
Five per cent of UK adults do not believe the Holocaust took place and one in 12 believes its scale has been exaggerated, a survey has found.

...
At the ceremony, survivors lit six candles to represent the six million Jewish victims.
"the Holocaust" implies there is one and only.


Theresa May
Quote:
No words can ever do justice to the six million souls who were so cruelly murdered in the Holocaust – but we can pay a fitting tribute through our deeds today

Sephiroth 28-01-2019 07:27
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
In 1993 I was working in Poland and went to see Schindler's List at the cinema. You actually had to book seats at all of the multiple cinemas showing it - that was the level of interest.

Anyway, coming out of the cinema, people were muttering about something; my colleague interpreted to me and said that they were complaining about why did the film only focus on Jews and not on the millions of Poles who also suffered.

What were the Jews depicted in the film if not Poles? Anti-Semitism hadn't ended then and I doubt now.

Damien 28-01-2019 09:00
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35981015)
In 1993 I was working in Poland and went to see Schindler's List at the cinema. You actually had to book seats at all of the multiple cinemas showing it - that was the level of interest.

Anyway, coming out of the cinema, people were muttering about something; my colleague interpreted to me and said that they were complaining about why did the film only focus on Jews and not on the millions of Poles who also suffered.

What were the Jews depicted in the film if not Poles? Anti-Semitism hadn't ended then and I doubt now.
I was about to say before I read the last paragraph that the many of the Jewish people Schindler saved were Polish. I believe the vast majority in fact because his factories were in Poland (i think).

Sephiroth 28-01-2019 12:38
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
Yes - his factories were in the Krakow region, as is Auschwitz.

nomadking 28-01-2019 14:01
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35981015)
In 1993 I was working in Poland and went to see Schindler's List at the cinema. You actually had to book seats at all of the multiple cinemas showing it - that was the level of interest.

Anyway, coming out of the cinema, people were muttering about something; my colleague interpreted to me and said that they were complaining about why did the film only focus on Jews and not on the millions of Poles who also suffered.

What were the Jews depicted in the film if not Poles? Anti-Semitism hadn't ended then and I doubt now.
Why were the comments anti-Semitic? The film only mention the 6m Jews in the end credits. So the emphasis was on all European Jews, not just Polish Jews or Polish non-Jews.

Quote:
The Germans shot thousands of teachers, priests, and other intellectuals in mass killings in and around Warsaw, especially in the city's Pawiak prison. The Nazis sent thousands more to the newly built Auschwitz concentration camp, to Stutthof, and to other concentration camps in Germany where non-Jewish Poles constituted the majority of inmates until March 1942.
...
Between 1939 and 1945, at least 1.5 million Polish citizens were deported to German territory for forced labor. Hundreds of thousands were also imprisoned in Nazi concentration camps.
Calculating the numbers of individuals who were killed as the result of Nazi policies is a difficult task. It is estimated that the Germans killed between 1.8 and 1.9 million non-Jewish Polish civilians during World War II. In addition, the Germans murdered at least 3 million Jewish citizens of Poland.

Quote:
Between 1939 and 1945, nearly 2.8 million gentile Poles died at the hands of the Nazis, and 150,000 due to Soviet repressions

Hugh 28-01-2019 15:07
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
1 Attachment(s)
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https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...5&d=1548688007

Sephiroth 28-01-2019 18:40
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35981034)
Why were the comments anti-Semitic? The film only mention the 6m Jews in the end credits. So the emphasis was on all European Jews, not just Polish Jews or Polish non-Jews.
An astonishing response. Just to be contrary?

richard s 28-01-2019 18:55
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
Do not forget also that 20 million Russians also perished.

RichardCoulter 28-01-2019 20:09
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
It's an absolutely shocking state of affairs.

Perhaps It's because the holocaust happened before younger people were born and (unlike older people) their parents & grandparents weren't involved and didn't discuss family history hardships and tragedies with regards to WWII??

This is why it's so important to maintain the teaching of the holocaust as, hopefully, this will prevent it ever happening again.

I also think that the term 'Nazi' to describe someone who doesn't share ones point of view (both on & offline) is a deliberate emotionally charged comment and an insult to all those who suffered and lost their lives.

It's also worth noting that (with regards to the Jewish community) that this was done by stealth. It didn't start with gassing people, it started with insults in the street towards Jews and other various groups e.g. gay people, trade unionists, the disabled etc that were singled out- this is why it's so important to nip this sort of behaviour in the bud.

Sephiroth 28-01-2019 20:20
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
The term "final solution" specifically applied to Jews. As does the term "Holocaust".

That the Nazis similarly murdered others is also not in doubt.

jonbxx 29-01-2019 10:07
Re: Holocaust Memorial Day: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 35981068)
It's an absolutely shocking state of affairs.

Perhaps It's because the holocaust happened before younger people were born and (unlike older people) their parents & grandparents weren't involved and didn't discuss family history hardships and tragedies with regards to WWII??

This is why it's so important to maintain the teaching of the holocaust as, hopefully, this will prevent it ever happening again.

I also think that the term 'Nazi' to describe someone who doesn't share ones point of view (both on & offline) is a deliberate emotionally charged comment and an insult to all those who suffered and lost their lives.

It's also worth noting that (with regards to the Jewish community) that this was done by stealth. It didn't start with gassing people, it started with insults in the street towards Jews and other various groups e.g. gay people, trade unionists, the disabled etc that were singled out- this is why it's so important to nip this sort of behaviour in the bud.
I agree absolutely. I think it's great that the holocaust has to be taught in schools in England (but not Wales and Scotland strangely) What is heartening is that the main aim of teaching about the holocaust by teachers is to explore the roots and ramifications of prejudice. Ineresting recent study on this here - https://www.holocausteducation.org.u...Holocaust2.pdf

As you say, the holocaust 'crept up' on the population of Germany and the wider occupied states and vigilance is required to stop this kind of bahaviour early. In Berlin, there 's a exhibition called 'The Topology of Terror' based at the former Gestapo headquarters which shows how many very small incremental steps lead to the holocaust.


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