Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-46623754

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Wow.

Smart people out there.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Sadly has been a problem which has been been worrying airport authorities and other authorities for a while and they need to start taking it far more seriously then they have up to now.

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Agreed. The law is remarkably lax in this area. I have always had concerns about individuals being able to own drones. Only organisations should be permitted to do this, and under licence.

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Woooah, thats way too draconian, we are not a police state (yet).

(and no, I dont fly them, or have any interest in them).

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

There are already plenty of laws in place about endangering aircraft that can be applied with up to 5 years imprisonment for offenders. Such laws have already been used to prosecute loonies with laser pens.

Larger drones already have GPS fencing in their software that prevents them being used within 1 mile of an airport, though there are groups such as the pilots union that want this distance increased to 5 miles as is common on the continent.

Real problem is the smaller "toy" drones that have no restrictions in their software and can easilly fly out of range of their controller.

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Can the control frequencies be jammed I wonder? I guess they have thought of this ..

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If it's an industrial grade UAV then it could be flying autonomously with a pre-programmed flight plan.

What goes up must come down though.

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Yes, but the drone owner can change the preset frequencies, or it could just be pre-programmed with way-points, so not need any linkage to the controller.

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When you consider the many ways these machines can be misused and pose a deadly threat, I don't think it is draconian at all. We made do without them before, we can do so again.

This case is alerting us to how ill thought out this whole idea is.

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Military to be deployed at Gatwick.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...b02fb91ff06bf8

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Even if the thing is being controlled in realtime, Baldock (Ofcom) have remote monitoring heads all over the place down there. If they can isolate the signal from the command unit then that presents a nice, juicy target for a bit of triangulation.

Those toy drones like the DJI Phantom operate on similar frequencies to wifi networks so you'd be lucky to get more than a mile or so range from them.

If this is a professional unit as the reports suggest then it'll probably be operating on the de-regulated short range device frequency allocation around 458MHz. Maximum legal output on that band is 100 milliwats which is more than enough for 5-10KM. You can even buy illegal radio units from those online Chinese junk marts which claim 20KM+ range.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

When I was a lad it was kites that caused problems for aircraft, Barry Island beach is on the approach flight path for Cardiff Wales Airport, and kites would often "invade" that space.

Now I see numerous drones of all sizes there.

---------- Post added at 18:26 ---------- Previous post was at 18:24 ----------

They don't bother trying to jam control frequeancies, they blast the internal circuitry with microwaves. I would have though all airports would have that facility by now.

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You can misuse pretty much anything if you want, and we did without aeroplanes at one time, thats just a nonsense argument.

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Find out where the Signal's coming from, and send the SAS to kick the door it.

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The knock-on effects are impacting on the other side of the Atlantic - my bro-in-law is flying from Newark tonight, landing in Manchester tomorrow morning (staying with us over Christmas), and his UA flight has been delayed by 90 minutes, and UA offered to buy back his seat (he used UA Airmiles to book it), to re-sell it on as people on other US airlines that fly into Gatwick are trying to get seats to other airports in the U.K..

---------- Post added at 19:51 ---------- Previous post was at 19:49 ----------

Unfortunately, if they’ve changed the transmission frequency, it could be very difficult to find the transmission and triangulate on it, especially as it takes more than a few minutes to triangulate a transmission from a mobile location, especially if it’s a low power transmission.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Gatwick is to stay shut until at leat 6am tomorrow.

Well the culprity better have very deep pockets.

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Wow.

Do we know how many drones it is? - the BBC quoted someone as saying 'A significant number' - if I remember rightly.

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The busiest travel day of the year tomorrow so if it continues well into tomorrow then there will be even more chaos.

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Two apparently

"Earlier, he said the drones could not be shot down because of the risk posed by stray bullets. Officers from Surrey and Sussex police forces have been scouring the perimeter to try to catch the operators of two drones. Sussex police said there was no indication that the ongoing incident was terrorism-related."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...drone-sighting

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Well, if the bullets miss, gravity is not our friend - and even if they hit it, they would have to do a FOD sweep if it was near the runway or gates.

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Judging by the speed of the things if the video posted by the Daily Fail is anything to go by they would be incredibly difficult to hit even by an experienced marksman.

Chinook landed at Redhill a few hours ago (not something you see every day!). Looks like it came from Waddo so wonder what they're planning.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Lord Harris who led a independent review highlighted the potential for drones to be used to disrupt flights.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

That’s the main ISTAR base now, isn’t it?

Interesting...

(can’t see them sending a Reaper over Gatwick, can you?)

Update - just remembered, 54SU is based at RAF Digby, a couple of miles away from Wadders. Their job is to, and I quote, "provide processing, exploitation, and dissemination of all UK air-derived electronic surveillance data".

The drone jockeys’ time is running out.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

I fly drones as a hobby in a totally legal way and have been doing so for a couple of years now.

It doesn't matter how many laws, rules you can can come up with, there will always be idiots who does not care about the rules.

The cheaper toy drones do not fly for longer periods, do not come with GPS position flying, so the pilot really needs to have good control for the drone to stay in the air.

I at one point owned 5 drones, ranging from the small to professional standard - the mid range to professional ones have GPS and the professional ones, have GPS fencing which does not allow the pilot to fly any where near an Airport but you will always have some who can circumvent the software locks and get around this.

The issue here is that the Pilot of these drones at Gatwick, can be absolutely miles away, one of the drones I have can fly 7 KM away, however, UK law says to fly legally, the drone must always be in line of sight, these pilots of these drones at Gatwick will be flying with First Person View with either a Screen or Virtual Goggles. They won't be anywhere near the Airport, probably sat in a van or some other vehicle in a forest somewhere.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Yes it sure is. All of our ISTAR assets are there including the Reapers and that clunky old thing we bought from the Yanks ;)

Now funny you should mention that. There's a block of airspace: TMA1 just to the East of Gatwick with an upper level of 19,500ft. Now just above that up to 25,000ft is where the Reapers normally operate.

I've been watching for the past few hours (on Flightradar24 and *cough* something else) anything around that block between FL240 and FL260 vectored further North parallel with the M25 so it does make you wonder.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

So it's illegal to fly a drone further than you can see it? Why do they sell ones with such long ranges? Also what happens if something happens to the drone? I've never got one cos i'ld be afraid of it falling and hitting someone.

---------- Post added at 22:25 ---------- Previous post was at 22:23 ----------

What are you talking about? :dunce:

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

We have people based in Raf Waddington in Lincolnshire whose job is to fly Reaper drones over Syria and other places to ruin people’s days, which are backed up by Electronic Intelligence collection planes, such as the Sentry or Rivet Joint planes. 54SU (based a couple of miles from Wadders) is tasked with intercepting, collecting, and analysing U.K. airborne electronic information (transmissions between aircraft and ground).

Besides delivering unexpected surprise packages to insurgents, Reapers also have extensive electronic intelligence collection capabilities, which interpreted by the people from 54SU, will help pinpoint the rapscallions location.

(All this is surmise, obvs., based on previous knowledge and gossip from ex-colleagues)

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

So they can track both the drones themselves and the radio signals? Why wouldn't they fly these over Gatwick? It's not as if the airport is being used right now....

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As the old saying goes, it’s not that simple (I worked with a previous incarnation of thes guys when I was at RAF Digby, and their predecessors did the same thing on the West/East German border during the Cold War, but without UAVs).

If they are using waypoints to move the drones about, there will be very little communication between drones and ground station, and what there is, could be low-powered. If they are guiding them, they could be moving around (in a van, as Mick said) - it’s unfortunately not like the movies - it takes time to find the signal (could be frequency hopping), and then you have to triangulate where the ground station signal is coming from.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

If they can find out what frequency the ground station is transmitting on and what the signal looks like on the spectrum display that's their best bet. Pretty much the RF equivalent of a ballistics analysis.

Not sure that any of those off the shelf drone control radio systems are frequency agile like a military comms terminal would be but the transmitters in 2.4GHz and 5GHz type approved systems are very low powered.

The systems which operate on lower frequencies are far more powerful, travel for longer distances and are not as susceptible to interference by obstacles etc. There would be far more likelihood of being able to triangulate this type of signal.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

The ones with huge ranges cost a lot of money over £1,000 and for professional and commercial use, generally the professionally ones are aimed at Licensed operators who can, as long as they have permission to do so from the Civil Aviation Authority, fly above the legal distances for standard recreational users.

The thing to be aware of, recreational drone flying, you're not suppose to fly them over large crowds of people or be in close proximity to buildings. I fly mine in areas that are allowed, like large parks and playing fields.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Guardian are reporting that drone has been spotted in the last hour.

I've been watching what's going on in the vicinity and at 21:30 one of the Easyjet aircraft on the ground started up on ground power and switched it's transponder on announcing itself to Flightradar24.

Makes you wonder if this is what numb nuts is using as a prelude to kicking off the mischief.

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I’m pretty sure the SAS are on site already, attached to whatever specialist unit has been sent in to deal with these drones.

The fact that this is still ongoing after 24 hours and el gov is confident it is not terror related says to me that they think this is a state actor (i.e. Russia). It’s inconceivable that some pale and pasty social misfit would still be at it right now.

The fact that the BBC isn’t even speculating in these terms suggests to me that they’ve been handed a DA notice.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

They say it's an Industrial model drone - well, I know of a few and the pale faced misfit won't be able to just buy one of these and then begin to jail break it and buy all the kit that goes with it, unless they got a spare ten grand and then some.

It's either one of these https://store.dji.com/shop/industria...=menu_products

Or...

https://store.dji.com/shop/inspire-s...=menu_products

Just look at the cost of these 2 above.

DJI - the leading drone manufacturer around the world, their software blocks pilots from flying in a No Fly Zone - that's an Airport. But they are saying, the pilots have hacked the drones to circumvent the locks that prevent the flying in or near to Airports.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Decoy?

The Chinook could have brought a couple of the 54SU ‘plain clothes’ vans which could be cruising the area...

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

I was just thinking the same. Try to flush it out.

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Probably. It's just started up again on ground power.

Announcing itself as the Alicante flight: EZY24QY

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

To do what lol ? - This drone can travel very fast and if they have hacked it, they have probably changed the speed parameters on it as well and it can travel at any height too. No Marksman is going to shoot something down that's hundreds of feet above a commercial zone.

My hunch is that the pilots are in a vehicle, miles away from the Airport and moving around thwarting all efforts to get a true position because signal keeps changing and moving and the drone is navigating on Pre-set Way points.

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I think they will have a Military, probably RAF, Electronics Intelligence intercept unit nearby, to track the signal sources.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

If they can anticipate when the drone will appear by prompting it to do a flyover this might give them new information. It might not, but they are probably better inviting it than reacting.

Obviously identifying it taking off or landing would be a huge (though unlikely) win. I don’t know what military resources could help in this area.

They have said they are considering options to shoot it down although I agree with you it’s unlikely.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Looks like there's a positioning flight rolling out for take-off. Be interesting to see what that brings.

A positioning flight is a non-passenger route where a crew move aircraft between locations.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Is it a positioning flight, or does it just look like one?

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

It just looks like one as it appears to be taxying back to the stand ;)

It could of course be a rejected take-off though. Hard to say as it's just a moving icon on a screen.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

News reports "With most drones the batteries will last for only 20 minutes", suggests more than one operator and most modern drones just won't fly near an airport, the GPS won't allow it. Weird.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

These industrial Drones will have dual battery packs, which will basically allow the drone to fly for the best part of an hour or more before being required to land, they will also return to home whenever the drone detects the batteries are becoming depleted and they’re smart enough to know how much battery juice they need to get home with.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Other half is going to Lapland in 2 hours, has to drive to Gatwick, check in and then get a coach to Stansted, I hope comeuppance is winging its way towards the perpetrators and that it's bitter medicine

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Hopefully things will start to improve throughout today after the chaos of yesterday.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...d-flights-live

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

So, with no crims or drones found, someone is taking a risk re-opening Gatwick. Some are blaming tree huggers as a protest, they could easily move on to Heathrow or elsewhere.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Yep now that they know that they have brought Gatwick airport to a total standstill for over a day there are over 40 other airports one could conceivable target as well of which there are 5 in London alone.

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It’s almost certainly not playing out as portrayed in the media.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Whoever is using the drone must have the technical knowledge to disable the GPS geofencing. Speculation is that the control is being done over the 4G/5G phone network so unless the authorities can actually capture the drone to discover the mobile identity the culprit(s) will get away with it.

Even then the SIM could be untracable back to a purchaser.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

So I can't get one to scout out the traffic on my route to the station in the morning then :D

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Not if you wish to have an on the spot fine handed down to you, your equipment confiscated from the police ;) , they are getting more powers to tackle irresponsible drone pilots.

But some people calling for extra laws, the idiots flying the ones at Gatwick, won't care for them and are just spoiling the hobby for those who do respect the rules and laws attached to drone flying.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

How high are these drones flying over the airport.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

If it's a sophisticated drone then it will contain components which may hold account information. DJI drones require account registration to fly them through an APP.

It could also be a custom built drone that will hold no information.

---------- Post added at 15:28 ---------- Previous post was at 15:24 ----------

How long is a piece of string?

It's not unheard but they can fly 1000's of Metres in the air, at these heights, they will not even appear to be a dot in the sky. Even at 100 M it will just barely be visible, it will be like trying to shoot at a Blue bottle 10 M away.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

My thinking was if they are flying up to 300 mtrs they can be taken down with a shot gun with out the fear of harming anyone on the ground.

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But that would create the likelyhood of FOD (Foreign Object Damage) to aircraft using the runway - a jet engine with some fragments getting sucked in a high speed is sub-optimal.

(it can take hours to do a FOD walk on a runway - I've taken part in some before, and it's basically a long line of people very close together walking up and down the runway for a couple of hours to clear any fragments off).

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

You'd be lucky if there was enough kinetic energy in a spread of pellets to take down a drone in the 50-100 yard range

A slug at 300 yards maybe but good luck hitting a fast moving drone at that range.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Breaking: Gatwick on hold due to suspected drone sighting.

https://twitter.com/ReutersUK?ref_sr...Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

They stop geese and ducks [so i am told ;)]

---------- Post added at 17:37 ---------- Previous post was at 17:36 ----------

This is getting silly now.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

So basically airports are at the whim of these drones unless they develop technologies that can stop them getting within a certain radius of a airport.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

I read earlier that such technology was installed today.

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OK the parties over when they catch this terrorist, sell everything he ownes to the lowet bider and lock them up the rest of their life.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Well if the reports are true it ain't working.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

I can't find the story now,not sure where i read it ,but it was said to be an Israeli anti drone system.

found it
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...twick-UAV.html


https://www.timesofisrael.com/uk-arm...ondon-airport/

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Apparently they put up a drone tracking system this morning at Gatwick.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

It may not be the purpose of these drones but there are those that feel that aviation is a contributor to climate change, pollution, destruction of the ozone layer.

These are things that won't significantly impact on anyone reading this but it might be that our kids curse our profligacy.

Don't shoot me - just sayin' :)

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Even if they try to track where it came from, it is inevitable that the final part of the return journey will be obscured from the system's "view".

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Anybody who's technically savvy enough to break the Geofencing will no doubt have considered all tracking and jamming approaches.

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I am one of those that feel that aviation is a contributor to climate change, pollution, all in the name of cheap holidays - just sayin'

---------- Post added at 18:12 ---------- Previous post was at 18:07 ----------

Probably turn out to be a 14 year old nerd with a home built drone flying it from his bedroom.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Wouldn't surprise me at all. Treating it like some video game.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Looks like they're back in business at the moment. Aurigny flight to Guernsey just taken off

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Police snipers had a go at it (or them)

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-br..._medium=Social

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Two arrests made in relation to ‘criminal use of drones’, police say.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ion-of-airport

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Sounds reasonable although possibly a little bit to lenient, btw however much is in the twerps wallet, I bid that for all he owns

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Can you get these drone things in Argos ? ;)

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

They just need counter drone technology, something like this...

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Yes ARGOS sell them, as do PC World and many other shops.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

yes and you just need a basic knowledge of left/right - up/down -and the thing you'll never master in/out;)

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Knew it

Attachment 27678

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

No, these are pro Drones.

But with some knowledge you just need the motors, lightweight tubing, decent RC batteries & electronics, you can buold your own one, no GPS fencing etc.

Dare I say a Raspberry Pi at the heart.

OK I've very simplified it but Google/Youtube is a powerfull tool.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Argos do sell pro drones, if the price is anything to go by, here is 1 costing £1589.


https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8083603

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

They do not sell the Industrial drones costing over £5,000 and up.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

These two culprits should be severely punished for the trouble and heartache and money they have caused people. Hope there is no soft touch for them or there will be an outcry. As one we lady on the news said " Hang them "

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

LOL - we don't hang child killers, if they were to start hanging people pissing about at an airport with drones, I think that would be a bigger outcry.

By all means - the judicial system should throw the book at them, however, they have highlighted very weak defense systems at UK Airports.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Pretty much spot on.:tu:

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I think Chris Grayling (Transport Secretary) said the maximum term is five years' imprisonment. I don't know if any other charges can be added to the charge sheet.

The Government was going to introduce some stronger legislation but hasn't got the capacity to do so.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...xit-chaos.html

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

But will they be able to get their money back from Argos for the drone ?

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2 grown adults..

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...cal-police-say

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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...uple-revealed/

I'm a bit wary about naming people, assuming 'we've got them' before they've been charged, ( this goes for any arrest). His boss says he was at work during these attacks, just hope they've not made a panic arrest.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

The police have to be seen to be doing something. The fact that they're all running round like headless chickens because somebody out there is much brighter than they are doesn't go down well with the proles.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Your wisdom has proved itself. The Police say that the couple are no longer suspects and have been released without charges.
https://news.sky.com/story/pair-arre...harge-11589961

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Gatwick drones pair 'no longer suspects'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...n=bbc_breaking

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Exactly, their names and pictures have been plastered all over the place and you got people demanding them to be hanged, think that’s a valid reason we don’t have the death penalty in this country.

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Just looking at some of those front page headlines it is very depressing how quickly it develops into the lynch mob mentality.:(

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I would imagine the 'evidence' was their next door neighbour calling in saying "The guy next door flies drones, and he was out yesterday, and has a van - oh and he also keeps parking in 'my' space on the road."

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

And if I was the couple - I would read every one and look for a potential case of libel and initiate a lawsuit against them.

This has a hint of the "Cliff Richard" saga all over again - the media never learns.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

Indeed there are plenty of lawyers out there who would very willing to help them look for a potential case of libel and initiate a lawsuit against them.

l am all for freedom of the media but it seems to happen time after time and l think the time is right now for proper regulation rather then this oh so weak media self regulation.

Re: Drones ground flights at Gatwick
 

BREAKING: Police tell BBC News that they cannot discount the possibility that there may have been no drone at all.

This incident is growing more bizarre by the hour....