R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

This has a similar theme to the Charlie Gard issue https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...php?t=33705158 , in where parents want to take their child abroad for treatment and the UK Judicial system intervenes and insists life support must end...

However, in Alfie's case, have doctors got it horribly wrong...?

Last night, Alfie Evans life support was ordered to be switched off, all legal avenues of legal recourse had been exhausted, even the Pope intervened and made preparations to bring Alfie to Italy, they even made him an Italian Citizen, however, they still turned off his life support, however after nearly 17 hours, Alfie is still alive, doctors began to intervene again. Doctors are said to be 'gobsmacked' he was breathing unsupported...

Have doctors got it horribly wrong?

Why is it the parents have to fight tooth and nail to save their boy, it is not right at all and now we are in this situation where Alfie is breathing unaided and doctors shocked at this, they have got it horribly wrong IMO. Let the boy go to Italy, if we are not prepared to treat him, let him go to somewhere that will.

I really feel for the parents, who just want to protect their boy...

https://news.sky.com/story/alfie-eva...-says-11344631

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

I think it's a very sad story and we have to be careful on the outside into casting judgements on any of those involved.

I am not sure if the Doctors got it wrong but I do assume his doctors have better knowledge than the Pope or the Italian government. I am quite surprised the Italians thought it wise to get involved by giving Alfie citizenship.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

Have a feeling the parents and 'supporters' have been manipulated by the media (again). Threats against medical staff again ffs. Who knows what extra suffering this kid has gone through because of this. The fact that he's still breathing doesn't mean he isn't dying sadly.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

I think that whatever happens, we should be mindful of the boy's suffering.

Although artificially prolonging life is an option so many of us would take for a loved one, we must ensure we are not doing this for purely selfish reasons.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

Its very difficult for the parents , patient and the medical professionals from my own experiences as being in a specialist hospital for a considerable period of time quite a few times in my life l saw first hand how hard it is for all involved.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

This.

The facebook armies and sensationalist tabloids are out in force. Absolutely gobsmacked and annoyed that something like this manages to shine a light on the absolute **** residing in this country, with long winded rants labelling judges as pigs, claiming they should be tortured and stabbed and as above, constant threats on NHS staff. Keyboard Doctors giving their 'expert' consultations in Facebook groups, stirring it up further and deliberately spinning false information.

I wish everyone caught up in such behaviour could receive an indefinite ban from using NHS services.

---------- Post added at 20:06 ---------- Previous post was at 19:39 ----------

Sorry, almost forgot, His parents aren't being manipulated either, they're the ones manipulating. Proven liars and will say absolutely anything at this point to suit their own agenda, consistently span anything they've been told by doctors into pure bullshittery at this point. Media seemed to fail to report the father of Alfie Evans had to defend himself on Twitter after someone called him out for stabbing a kid for a push bike a few years back. Admitted it before deleting it and trotting off to meet the pope.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

Even if they sent the poor little mite to Rome he would still not survive... Certain people think they have a better knowledge of his condition. Shame on them.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

Source

First it was the Italian hospital could "treat the child", now it's "see if they can diagnose and treat"

I fully understand when a child is involved it is a deeply emotive subject but has anyone thought, just for a minute what quality of life this child is facing if indeed it's life can be extended?

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

The only people with a great knowledge of his condition are the trained doctors looking after him.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

There is a published case, albeit in Japan in which someone beyond saving was deliberately kept alive as long as possible. The trauma is obviously more severe.

Link, NSFL:

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

Hardly a fair comparison and nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-cont...y-v-evans.pdf#

Conclusions and findings from 57 onwards. More reliable information than media reportings. Dated Feb. I can assume it's progressed even further since then. A common question is 'How can he be breathing?' You can absolutely breath on your own accord with just the stem itself intact. Regarding the quality of life, I don't believe there is any. Comatose indefinitely if life is supported.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

The way I see it is this. A 2 year old boy or near to 2, will not have the mental capacity to make an informed choice, like you or those who can read this sentence, you can communicate and tell people your wishes. Alfie obviously cannot, I do believe he has been opening his eyes and responding to his parents.

I do not know if Alfie will come under, 'The Deprivation of Liberty Safeguards (DoLS)' these are normally associated with people with psychiatric issues, normally vulnerable persons. Someone under a DoLs can have their freedom of rights removed, if it can be ascertained that removing a certain right is of benefit or in their 'best interest', to that vulnerable persons. But as I said, DoLs is normally associated to vulnerable adults, I am not sure if young children of a vulnerable age, come under the same terms, I do not see how they don't.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

I assume Sophia Roper is either a solicitor or Barrister

Source

So Alfie has been appointed a guardian by the courts who must by law act in the child's best interests.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

This is getting world wide attention, it's already big news in Italy, due to the Pope, now it's big news in America, Senator Ted Cruz has had a right pop at our NHS and government over their inaction.... He has tweeted the following series of tweets....

And:

And:

He goes on....

https://twitter.com/tedcruz/status/989220803765039107

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

It’s quite sad that he doesn’t see the irony of what he’s saying - in the USA, Alfie would already be dead, as his parents couldn’t have afforded the treatment he has received from our ‘socialised medicine’ free of charge.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

This case is becoming a proxy for other arguments: The rights of the parent vs doctors/courts, in Italy it's religion (and political bonus points) and in America it's about how bad the NHS is.

Few seem concerned with the humans actually involved but nonetheless deem themselves qualified about what medical treatment Alfie Evans should have.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

Even if they can keep him alive, he'll never be cured and become a normal child. At best he'll be a living corpse.

As stated by many others he's being used to bash any and all involved as if they're some heartless ogres.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

It should still be up to the parents to decide the child’s fate. Not the government, not the doctors.

---------- Post added at 11:57 ---------- Previous post was at 11:29 ----------

And how the hell would you know what they could afford in the U.S?

They may have a better quality life in the U.S and have health insurance. Bottom line is you don’t know, they have held fundraisers over here, so may be they could raise funds to get treatment. At least they would have a choice what to do and not being dictated to like our government and ‘Death panel’ in the NHS are doing. We are getting absolutely slated across the world because of this, people abroad remember the Charlie Gard case well and here we are again, ruining a families life with red tape and bullshit.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

There is a point at which the Doctors, and then the court, can intervene if they think the child is coming to harm.

What treatment? No one has said there is a treatment for this condition IIRC.

We don't have death panels in the UK. That's a right-wing talking point that they've made up to slate the NHS and our county in general. Finally the Government didn't decide his. It was his Doctors and a independent court.

You said it best when you said 'we don't know'. The only people who know are the Doctors and Parents and the courts have found the former more convincing. I find it odd people in the US can be so sure of what to do in a case they are not involved in. Especially when many of them don't see to understand who makes these decisions and the process involved in making it.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

The child is coming to harm, when he is struggling to breath. Last time I looked, euthanasia is a crime in the UK, being in healthcare myself, I was taught from the start, that to neglect a person to the point that they die, is potentially manslaughter. I do not agree the State controls everybody.

The parents own that child, not the government, not the doctors. We are being described abroad as evil, kidnappers and even “Nazi” like behaviour, with the dictatorship style rulings over the parents wishes.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

This isn't euthanasia. Turning off life support systems is a common end of life procedure. It's often done when there is no hope of recovery which the doctors seem to think is the case here. It certainly not manslaughter or neglect either. They will continue palliative care as well I imagine.

The people abroad are not reacting to the facts of the case but a caricature presented to them by those with ulterior motives. Many of them seem to think, as you've said, that the Government have decided this but they have not. We will be called all sorts of things but in the end the interests of the child should take precedence, not America's opinion of us.

One thing I have not done is cast any judgement or opinion on the issue itself. This is a horrible and tragic case for Alfie Evans' parents, his doctors but most of all him. I don't know the details of his condition or his treatment or even how best to handle this situation. I don't understand how anyone, least of all people completely unconnected to the case, can feel so sure of the correct thing to do.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

No one OWNS a child. They are not PROPERTY.The parents have rights but they NEVER,EVER supersede those of the child.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

Indeed who gives a toss what they think, I'd have thought they'd be more concerned with the anything from 10 000- 40 000 people that die every year because they can't afford insurance, still at least they have freedom or had it I should say.

I do have an opinion on this though, if Alfie were my son I'd probably do exactly the same as his parents.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

Quite right, Maggy. Exactly what kind of life the poor boy has and can expect is something people should ponder.

It's the child that matters, not the feelings of others who are happy to allow this suffering, and worse, to be played out for as long as they can manage to do so.

Of course, we all feel sorry for the parents, but as a parent myself I would not want my child to suffer like this. Poor little mite.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

I would not like to have my child on a life support machine year in year out after being told there is no hope of recovery.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

I don't understand why the parents aren't spending every precious moment with little Alfie, just focusing on him alone while he's still around and supporting each other. But, then, I'm not having to deal with the torment that they are going through.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

Very sad news this morning as my thoughts and condolences go out to the parents of brave Alfie.:(

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...f-life-support

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

Very sad news.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

:afire: Absolute disgrace this country and it’s messed up bullshit rules and litigation.

I hope the Italian Government take international legal action against U.K., for the apparent manslaughter against one of their citizens, what an embarrassment this country and it’s shameful healthcare deathcare is. :td:

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

I was once told that every child in this country is technically the property of the queen. As such, parents are merely guardians and this is how children can be taken into care if parents don't look after them properly.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

You may have been misinformed.

Swans, yes - children,no...

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

I'm sorry Mick, I disagree. Even the ECHR rejected an appeal. As I said before this is a very emotive case as a child is involved. Don't forget the doctors and nursing staff have feelings too and the decision end life support would not have been taken lightly.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

I suspect the Italian Governmanr has more sense.

I dont know why you are getting so wound up and making silly statements about our healthcare, but from my POV, our health system is fantastic, and has taken great care of my daughter for 20 years. I think you need to take a bit of a chill pill.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

What health system would spend one hundred thousand on a device to save my life and a whole lot more besides plus twenty five thousand twice on two other devices in these last 18 years.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

I'm still trying to figure out how Italian doctors know they can treat an undiagnosed condition.

Surely you have to know what you are treating first.

I would also add that since the beginning of April all the legal manoeuvres and publicty have been handled and paid for by an American Christian Group as has happened in previous similar cases.

http://www.christianconcern.com/christian-legal-centre

http://www.briefreport.co.uk/news/al...e-5706798.html

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

The healthcare system has saved my life and that of my younger brother, I’m not knocking it in that sense, its helped millions, but it does not have the right to dictate and or control a child over the parents wishes. It should be permissible for parents to decide the child’s fate, not the State or Doctors.

Where would Ashya King be right now, if his parents had not have abducted their own child to have treated abroad?

Ashya is now cleared of cancer, but he would have died had they not done what they did.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

It does seem very harsh that the parents couldn't have one last try at a cure. Even though the prognosis was very dire. It wasn't going to cost the UK taxpayer anything extra and would have bought closure to the parents. Who knows miracles sometimes happen?

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

Chalk and cheese Mick Even the chief paediatrician at Southampton hospital said at the time
It was normal treatment he was referring to. The parents wanted something different.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-32013634

Also worthy of note Ashya had a diagnosed condition Alfie did not.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

And they had every right to choose something different.

Yet they had to sneak him abroad, even though he was 'their' child and they become international criminals overnight, thankfully the UK's requests for extradition where denied when they were finally arrested.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

I agree wholeheartedly but he had a diagnosed condition which another hospital offered a perhaps, quicker prognosis based on the condition.

In Alfie's case his condition was undiagnosed so how any other hospital can say they can treat him is beyond me.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

Exactly, Alfie's brain condition was undiagnosed, how the hell can decisions, where it literally is life or death, be made on guess work?

Doctors did not expect Alfie to live off his ventilator, yet were left 'gobsmacked' when they finally removed it when he carried on breathing...

Doctors do get things wrong, they are not miracle workers all the time and it should be right that parents get a second opinion and if necessary, in another country.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

The other thing is that he already had significant brain damage that even a cure for the condition itself wouldn’t have cured him unless you can reverse brain damage.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

Yet not just British courts but also the ECHR thought of the child first.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

His brain damage was very severe and the chances of that being reversed are to put it bluntly zero.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

:clap::clap::clap:

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

It's always emotive when a child is in this position and everyone wants a happy ending but the way everyone piles in blindly when these cases occur with the press who take every chance to whip up emotions and the parents get used and manipulated for the entertainment of others. The Italian attempt at intervention wasn't based on medical grounds it was based on publicity they didn't know a medical thing about the case but wanted to be seen to be better The threats against medical staff were abhorrent and completely unacceptable as I've never met an NHS medical team that didn't have the best interests of the patient as the primary goal and I've seen nothing in this case to suggest otherwise.

The way that social media mob rule manifests at the slightest chance shows there is something very wrong with our society these days and all the circus that grew up around took and had no interest in the best interests of alfie or how this was for him. He had no chance at any quality of life even if he could have been stabilised life without a quality of life is not living it's a technicality and this child and any future children deserve to either have the chance at life or if that's not possible the most gentle passing we can give not to be kept in limbo to suit agenda's.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

We do not know how damaged his brain was, he did not have a diagnosed brain condition, they did not know everything.

I maintain my view. It should still not be left up to the State to decide on when someone should die, unless of course we are now deciding euthanasia should be legal.

I say this was Euthanasia in my eyes because they removed the ventilator, an act they would know to intentionally cause Alfie's eventual death.

Alfie was still responding to stimuli and reacting to his parents touch, his life should have been preserved until ALL medical avenues were exhausted, they were not because they were tied up in the hospital interfering in the parents wishes to take him abroad and they did so with months of litigation. It was the same with Charlie Gard, months and months of legal wrangling to the point it passed a dreadful reality where there was no hope.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

They knew the damage that was occurring but they didn’t know the condition that was causing it.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...ition-14540668

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

We also don't know if the child was in pain and suffering in fact we the public have very little knowledge about anything this poor kid was dealing with and the people that did have the knowledge made a decision not lightly i suspect on what they felt was the best course of action. The public may have a passion for whatever reason about these cases but that doesn't mean a damn thing as we are not in a position to know whats best, thank god we're so knowledgeable to judge others and throw threats around as that helps everytime.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

I would never agree with any threats to NHS staff, but I am allowed to disagree with their professional opinion.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

The "state" has never been involved in this. The legal system has, which has to be involved when circumstances like this arise. The case was even taken out of this country to the ECHR. As you very well know the ECHR can overrule our legal system and state they chose to deny the appeal.

Given the ECHR's record of overruling UK court decisions that in this case the best interest of the child has been served.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends,
 

Mick, no disrespect, but we are talking about professionals who have spent decades learning and treating very sick children - how can a non-professional’s opinion, with no experience in treating multiple very sick children, be compared as valid against their knowledge and experience.

If a team of experienced engineers tell me that my home is a fire risk, should I value my next door neighbor’s knowledge, who has changed a couple of fuses, as equivalent to theirs, and discount what they say?

You’re entitled to your opinion - but opinion is not equivalent to decades of professional knowledge, experience, and training.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

Have you or anyone in your house never disagreed with a medical opinion?

The right to a second, third and fourth opinion does exist you know. Doctors are not always right. It was totally permissible for the parents to seek medical counsel elsewhere and in another country if they felt like it, only they were denied that right because of our nanny state.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

Mick i gaurantee more then one doctor was involved in this and numerous others no one doctor would have decided the course of action and got it done for legal reasons if nothing else.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

And therein lies the rub Mick. The Italian doctors did not have an alternative opinion. How could they his condition remains undiagnosed.

Why didn't Italy send one of the doctors over here to conduct an examination and present a second opinion? It would certainly have cost less, happened quicker and have no court involvement than sending the child over there to die.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

That's the bit I'm not so keen on, apparently they were unrepresented when the early hearings occurred, how can it be fair that young parents of average education going through such trauma have to go up against some of the best barristers this country has to offer, doesn't sound like a fair fight to me

Apparently Polish doctors came over and when you look at what the Italians offered it wasn't a cure, it was to prolong his suffering for two weeks whilst they ran some tests

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

The Polish doctor said he wasn’t dying, a day before he died.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/95...th-latest-news

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

And the family got those opinions, and they all agreed with Alder Hey.

http://www.alderhey.nhs.uk/wp-conten...L-220318-1.pdf In the High Court case in February, further independent paediatric experts were called in.

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-cont...ey-v-evans.pdf

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

I still stand by my views Hugh, you have proved nothing to me.

The parents should have the right to as many medical opinions as they wish, to keep their boy alive, if that is what they wanted.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

They received those opinions Mick, even the Italian team agreed moving him to Italy would present further brain damage.

As is totally normal the parents looked everywhere for a better outcome but there wasn't one. All the clinicians agreed. Even the one's the parents requested to give an opinion including the doctors from Italy.

Any continued social media frenzy just prolongs the parents suffering.

Re: Alfie Evans 'Breathing' after life support ends
 

I have a friend who's wife is a lawyer regarding childrens issues, so I called them today and she confirmed it wasn't correct.

Very sad to hear this :(

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

The group representing the parents, especially the lawyers, might face an investigation for bad legal advice: https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018...fie-evans-case

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

That is pathetic if it is true, the parents are free to take any advice they choose.

But in my opinion, the parents acted on their own volition. That is, they wanted to do all they could to protect their boy and take him abroad because the NHS was no longer a viable solution to them.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

But if you get bad legal advice that's allowed to be questioned. No one is saying the parents aren't entitled to legal advice but that if the legal advice is wrong they need protection against that happening.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

I get that but it looks like a scapegoat is being sought to look why the parents took all the legal avenues they did...

The elephant in the room is that they loved their boy and that's all there is to it, Alfie has sadly passed, all this, looking for reasons why this or that, is not needed and they need to let Alfie's death be treated with the dignity it deserves.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

The elephant in the room is not their child, what parent would not clutch at any straw? That is human nature.

The elephant is the legal advisor via the CLC who will neither confirm or deny his legal standing and the advice he gave the parents.

Do you really think the parents have a case for charging the doctors involved for murder having persued every avenue including second and third opinions at the parents request?

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

My concern is about whether Alfie suffered as a result of this vain attempt to prolong his life against the advice of the doctors.

We seem to be obsessed in this country about prolonging life regardless of the poor quality of that life.

The first concern should be for the patient, not for anyone else. That is where the medical priority should lie, and that should be made clear in law. Parents should not be able to dictate to doctors about this if it results in more pain and suffering for the patient. Obviously, they should be consulted, but their views should not affect the patient adversely.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

I agree 100% OB but it would appear there are few that put Alfie first when going to the courts. Alder Hey consulted with the parents every step of the way, got their own opinions from other leading children's hospitals as well as those suggested by the parents.

Each and every one agreed there was nothing to be done in this unfortunate case. All the Italllian doctors offered was continued palliative care and more tests.

For every parent in cases like this they can be manipulated because (understandably) they are looking for a solution. I would hate to be in the same position but like it or not eventually you have to accept that there's nothing more to be done.

American Christian groups do nothing more than offer false hope and IMHO extend suffering.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

Totally agree. It strikes me that this "legal adviser" prolonged the poor child's suffering and put a wedge between Alfie's parents and the hospital.

Re: R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends
 

The second case's like this hit the media the best interests of the child go out the window it becomes a urinating contest for who can look more caring and compassionate no matter what suffering their dragging things out might cause to the kid.