Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

https://news.sky.com/story/pensioner...glary-11316275

It should not be murder. I say release the man without charge. We're still focused on being harsh on people who should have the right to defend their property.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

It might just be procedure, alternatively we might not know the full details or maybe it's outrageous. A case of wait and see.

I mean if they were to actually charge him they would presumably have more than self-defence.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

Were you there Mick ? Do you know exactly what happened ?

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

Whether I was there or not is irrelevant. The report says two burglars entered the mans property, illegally. Neighbours have told Sky News, the pensioner was a well liked and popular neighbour, very kind in nature.

One of the burglars came off worse than what they tried to do to that old man when they were threatening him with a screw driver. I have no sympathy for the dead *******.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

This is a tough one where the law is concerned as the police will need to investigate this.

I feel for this man this is something he will never get over all because utter **** decided they have the right to take what does not belong to them.

It is my understanding that suspicion of murder is standard procedure and the police need to investigate all the circumstances on how the house breaker lost his life but saying that if the man felt his life was in danger he has the right to act in self defense.

What he is not allowed to do is kill with intention and I don't think for one minute that this is the case here as I do not think this man set out to kill.

I personally think he was a very frightened old man who lashed out due to fear, I do not think for one minute he knew his actions would kill therefore hopefully no charges should be brought IMO.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

With you on this one Mick and weenie.... fear made the old chap defend his home and life. You may reap what you sow.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

We don't know what happened is the point. We don't know if this is just a standard practise in the event of the death and the case will soon be dropped or if there is more information that the news report doesn't tell us.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

I get the due process bit Damien, but these two *******s were obvious cowards and obviously saw this pensioner as a weak target, only they bit off more than they could chew and it ended badly for one of them.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

Well let me solve a few problems on this. As l do know a bit about law.

The law states you can ONLY use 'reasonable force' if a burglar enters your property.

Reasonable force, is that you can protect YOURSELF, and can push to person to the floor, and hold that person to the floor or lock that person in a room. Before police arrive.

HOWEVER, if you use an instrument ie knife, baton and HARM that person. You can BE the guilty person.

The law is stupid on this. Your property is YOUR CASTLE. But the law does state you can ONLY use reasonable force.

I feel for the guy, he looked after his sick wife. But, he should be released on bail. But, he will be treated with care by police.

But the poor must be going through hell tonight, knowing what he has done.

But, what about the other *******. There were TWO burglars.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

I think this man should hopefully be okay in regards to being charged with murder according to this.

Using reasonable force against intruders
You can use reasonable force to protect yourself or others if a crime is taking place inside your home.

This means you can:
protect yourself ‘in the heat of the moment’ - this includes using an object as a weapon,
stop an intruder running off - eg tackle them to the ground.

https://www.gov.uk/reasonable-force-against-intruders

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

Also it's quite understanding into what reasonable force means. As that says it allows for the fact that you're under stress with a fight or flight response so it's whats reasonable given those circumstances rather than what is a minimum amount of violence to keep you safe.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

Well, if he was a pensioner, then he would have worried about being overpowered by one man, let alone two.

Of course he should not be charged with murder, or anything, for that matter. Everybody should be able to use whatever force necessary to defend their homes in an intruder situation. If that was made clear, maybe there would be fewer burglaries.

---------- Post added at 08:31 ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 ----------

That's right, Mick. You often only get one chance to use force against burglars, and he took it. Well done him.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

Murder is harsh, that makes it sound like it was planned or premeditated.

At most it should be manslaughter.

but either way, even if he was just defending himself, there is still the fact that he killed someone.

No it shouldnt be.....He was protecting himself!!!


HE SHOULD BE LET GO W/O CHARGE!!!!!!!!

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

He killed an intruder Stephen a person he did not invite into his home or want and if i live long enough to be 78 i am taking the quickest method to do maximum damage including killing on someone half my age who gets the advantage with every moment the struggle goes on. Not every life is precious some are out and out **** that the worlds better off without and two men who target pensioners fit right into that group. This pensioner shouldn't be charged with any offence and the wailing brigade with their shouts of "but someone was killed" need to shutup and go find something worth more then this to rail against or are we saying our pensioners are fair game for gutless ****.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

It would only be manslaughter if he were criminally negligent in some way.

Again we're being told little about this with the reporting not even making it clear if this is standard practise while an investigation takes place. A person was killed so the police do need to investigate. This must be either a normal thing the police do in this circumstance or more information to come out. It would of course be outrageous if there is nothing else to it, the circumstances are as described, and yet he is charged.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

Also might help if the police bothered with burglary not just giving out a crime number for insurance purposes after the event.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

[QUOTE=Arthurgray50@blu;35942672]


"Reasonable force, is that you can protect YOURSELF, and can push to person to the floor, and hold that person to the floor or lock that person in a room. Before police arrive."



Reply-
Surely it is not reasonable to expect your average 78 year old to wrestle a young, strong and presumably healthy younger person to the floor, restrain them whilst at the same time phoning the police, chances are the phone is in another room, a lot of older people do not have mobiles. Also these days how long before the police arrive? Personally I would grab the nearest object and let them have it! :erm:

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

Whats reasonable force for an mma fighter is totally different then reasonable force for a scared 78 year old man, if it's standard procedure to charge people before they investigate maybe it's time the procedure was changed as I'm sure that pensioner was probably in a state of shock after the incident and didn't need to hear he was being charged for defending himself.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

If you are woken in the night with intruders threatening you with a screwdriver where do you get a knife?

I'm not trying to excuse either way or what I would do if I saw the opportunity, I think that often there is too much protection for "the villain" and not enough for "the victim". If "the authorities" were focussing on preventing crime rather than on "clear up rates" there would be less issues. (I'm using generalities here deliberately as things are usually much more complex than can be discussed in a couple of paragraphs.)

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

He hasn't yet been charged.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

I have not studied law nor do I claim to have done but it is my understanding.

If charges should be brought against someone in where reasonable force is being questioned, once again it is my understanding, it then could be argued without doubt that the defendant felt the need not only to to protect his or her property but their main concern was their family members example: spouse, plus themselves as at the time they feared for their lives therefore the force used was reasonable given circumstances? It can also be be argued that if the spouse is elderly and frail then reasonable force was used when defense has taken place from a intruder, having said this there is no getting getting away from (feared for their lives) is a very strong statement and should only be used without reasonable doubt and understanding - example one that the jury can fully understand example in the situation of the defendant.

It is also my understanding when someone enters your property without invite therefore they are classed by law as a intruder and there is no rule in law to say that a person must wait to be struck first before they may defend themselves when the use of force is used against someone committing crime against you but saying this, this can be a very grey area depending on the all the facts.

Crime is taking place inside your home.
You can use reasonable force to protect yourself or others if a crime is taking place inside your home. This means you can protect yourself in the heat of the moment and this includes using an object as a weapon.

In regards to prosecutors in assessing the reasonableness of the force used, prosecutors should ask two questions was the use of force necessary in the circumstances, was there a need for any force at all.

Then it my understanding in regards to burden of proof, prosecutors need to take special care to recognise, and ensure all sufficiency of evidence in cases where self-defense is used.

Again I'm not legally trained this is just my understanding of reasonable force and I may be wrong in my understandings and the legal system.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

He’s been bailed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43648896

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

Good and so he should be IMO plus I do honestly hope beyond hope that this poor man does not get charged and for what I can see you could be prosecuted if, for example, you: carry on attacking the intruder even if you’re no longer in danger, pre-plan a trap for someone - rather than involve the police by all accounts this seems not to apply here as he contacted the police and I don't suppose for one minute he carried on attacking this man nor tried to set out to trap them as I'm sure I read that the man who died that his partner in this crime tried to help him before fleeing the scene.

I know if I was on the jury there is no way I would send down a 78 year old man for defending his beloved wife and property.

https://www.gov.uk/reasonable-force-against-intruders

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

I think this is disgusting. He should not be charged with anything. The presumption should always be self defence in a situation like this, unless there is proof to the contrary.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

He hasn’t been charged. If he is then we’ll have to see why.

GOOD... Lets hope the bail $$$ gets returned and he gets cleared!!

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

I have a hammer by my bed for smashing bedroom windows if there is a fire. If that ends up in a intruders head in the dead of night then so be it. If you break into my house you will get what you deserve if you don't leave peacefully.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

Or if you're half asleep, accidentally brain a relative, or hang a picture up ? ;)

If someone kills somebody they are usually arrested until the full facts are known. If they have acted unlawfully they'll get charged, which hasn't happened. You could reasonably disable somebody or defend yourself, but what if they go on to kill/torture once the intruder has been rendered unconscious? Not that I'm saying that this has happened here; but the facts have to be established. Even if charged you're presumed innocent until proved guilty in a court.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

https://www.gov.uk/charged-crime/bail

It's different in the UK there is no money involved .

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

He killed someone, that is a crime. Perhaps if he had just hurt him or incapacitated him it would of course be a different story.

Unless we know the full story its hard to judge. If he just heard a noise and went to investigate and saw someone in the room and stabbed them or something then that is not one. However if the intruder threatened him in some waysor was trying to harm him then yes self defense would be an acceptable claim.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

The police need to investigate to be sure that is what happened is all.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

So what every pensioner is allowed to kill an intruder in the home an get away with it?

Even if there is no evidence that their lives may have been in danger?

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

Yes, they should in my opinion. You only get one chance in a situation like this. If you don't take it, you might be the one ending up being hurt, tortured or killed.

It is not a crime to do what this pensioner did. He should be given a medal.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

Link.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

The police have confirmed he will face no further charges.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

Why not?

The intruder takes the risk of entering someones property at their own peril. Noone could possibly know if their life is in danger, so I am perplexed how one can provide evidence when someone is in your home, the situation is dynamic and can go one of several ways...

1) They gain entry to rob and steal you, they flee when they see you....

2) They gain entry, but you disturb them, they turn violent and try to harm or kill you.

3) I would say those who are carrying weapons, or don't carry weapons but use items in your house likes knives and stabbing weapons to harm you.

In situations 2 and 3, I would say you have the right to defend yourself and your loved ones, if necessary to save ones own life and that of others, kill them instead.

From the reports, this dead *******, was a serial offender, seemed to target frail older people as a hobby. He was a coward and it's one less oxygen thief roaming around preying on the vulnerable. Good riddance IMO.

---------- Post added at 18:54 ---------- Previous post was at 18:47 ----------

Hallelujah : Common sense prevails at last! :tu:

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

Not really, just the police investigating a death as they should. Storm in a tabloid tea cup.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

Excellent news.

It was pretty galling to see the family of the deceased saying how he was such a nice person and whining that the pensioner had been released on bail.

I understand that the police had to investigate, but there should be a better way of doing it than arresting and bailing a pensioner who was only protecting his disabled wife, himself and his home from intruders.

Let's hope that this outcome makes burglars think twice, particularly those who think that the vulnerable in society are always easy pickings.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

Mainstream TV news networks is not Tabloids. It was in the news for all the wrong reasons.

I disagree and millions of other sensible Brits do. It should not have been the case that the pensioner was arrested - there should be a law, you enter a house to steal, you put your life at risk.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

If there's a death and someone is responsible, they need to be arrested until the situation is verified. The fact that it's a house break in and he's pensioner is irrelevant. Hope he recovers from this but the police have done nothing wrong.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

I never said they had!

I said the law should change to reflect the risk involved in trying to steal from someone else, in their own property.

I maintain the pensioner should never have been arrested. The trouble came to him and well, the ******* he killed was half this pensioners age.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

They would've had to arrest him in order to ask the questions and in case the story turned out different.

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

They do not need to be arrested. The police can establish what happened on the scene and if they determine that the householder or his/her family killed a burglar, it should be a wrap. End of story. Goodbye to bad rubbish.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

I get that, but that can still be done without being arrested.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

Why can't they ask questions inside the victim's own house?

---------- Post added at 20:40 ---------- Previous post was at 20:40 ----------

Agreed, Mick.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

Yup. A person can be asked to come down to the Police Station, or the Police can come to the persons home and ask to make a statement.

Meanwhile, while the targeted house is still a crime scene, they can do their own internal investigations, assess the injuries on the dead body and any potential injuries on the victim(s).

As I said, the pensioner did not set out to go murder someone that night, so it's not murder, the ******* and trouble came to him, in his own home, burglar came off worse.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

Not an expert in policing but it's usually the case you have to go to a police station upon arrest. An arrest also gives you certain rights and I think the police have to arrest someone at some point in proceedings.

They weren't asking for a witness statement. They were investigating someone being killed and he was the suspect.

Im glad he was cleared!!

If someone is intruding in YOUR HOUSE Steve its called PROTECTING YOUR FAMILY..... You can shoot w/o asking questions... THEY SHOULD NOT BE THERE!!! (If they got shot its thier own fault)

Im not surprised.... No country is as greedy as the US is!!

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

What is the exact law in the U.S, is it you can legally shoot to kill a trespasser anywhere they step foot on your property regardless if you are in harms way or not ?

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

Excellent news that he will face no further action, lets hope the coward who left his **** m8 to die is found and jailed.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

It differs by state in the U.S Mick but most will not arrest a citizen that shoots an intruder in their home but if they are leaving the property it's best not to follow them.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

I was once told something by a carer about the elderly persons home where he used to work.

They had been having problems with burglars trying to get into the bedrooms of the residents in the dead of night and on one occasion were successful.

Unfortunately for him, the man whose room he got into was a war veteran from WWII who had developed something like dementia. He kept reliving the war and thought that the burglar was a German soldier; needless to say he ended up getting hurt.

Apparently, such conditions can invoke unusual strength.

Yup Mick it varies but in most the people who live there have a right to shoot if an intruder enters....... (Especially in Texas)

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

It should not have been necessary to arrest him. It was pretty clear what had happened here from the start. He should have been cautioned and questioned in his own home, then they should have removed the body and made sure he was ok for the rest of the night. However, he should not have been taken to the police station - absolutely no need for that in a case like this.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

I wonder who was looking after his wife who has dementia for the 24 hours that he was at the police station?

Must admit that I did wonder if there would be any repercussions for him after this. It's now sadly been confirmed on the news that he daren't go home after fears of attacks by associates of the dead burglar and is in hiding somewhere.

Poor man, he probably got ready for bed as he had done in his home hundreds of times before and then, in the blink of an eyelid, his life has been changed forever.

Thankfully he was cleared :)

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

Indeed, there are probably a few driveway jobs put on hold while he is
being hunted....:rolleyes:

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

It's now been reported that actual threats have been made against the gentleman concerned and that they have been put into a police safe house with round the clock police protection.

In addition, the crimes committed by the deceased include robbing other homes and swindling elderly people out of their life savings.

In an outrageously distasteful act, friends and family of the deceased have been placing tributes, cards, flowers etc outside the house!

In the night, someone has thrown them to the ground (including those placed by his children).

It has been argued that everybody has a right to grieve and that this act will cause more upset to his young children who may not even know what their father gets up to, all they know is that their father is dead.

What do others think about this?

Re: 78 Year old Pensioner Arrested for killing burglar
 

I could have been worse, In the US 2 burglers suffered for five days after breaking into the house of notorious gay rapist.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

Let me assure you that the pensioners wife is being well looked after.

The police are always being criticised for many things. But they are just doing there job - by protecting the victims of crime.

In my association with the police service over 30 years. IF the public really saw what the police have to do. They would not treat the police so badly.

Sadly, in this case they had no choice in arresting the pensioner. Its the law.

Sadly, the burglar was murdered in the process. But, what makes me sick is the aggro that the pensioner and his wife are having to put up with now.

In the news today, we have residents taking down the flowers that have been put up by the travelling community. And this in turn is being taken down by the traveller community. And comments have been made.

And that threats have been made.

You are ALLOWED by law to protect your property, BUT, cannot use force against the intruder.
Its wrong, but sadly you only have to look at the guy who shot and killed a burglar. He was sent to prison.

ANYONE can carry out a citizens arrest under common law.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

The burgler wasn't murdered, he died.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

I think that the crimes they committed especially on the elderly were nothing but appalling and really cowardice, as they seemed to seek their victims by age and just how vulnerable they were.

I don't think normal people will ever understand as to why the reasons the family and friends feel the need to lay flowers, cards etc outside the home of Mr Richard Osborn-Brooks. In regards to people throwing the family's tributes to the ground in my opinion the family and friends will see this as an act of disrespect, where most law abiding people see this as nothing but deviant behavior and lack of respect to the real victim in whom who's life will never be the same again for fear of attack.

Apparently one of the deceased family or friends said he was not a monster and maybe in his/her life breaking into homes, praying on the elderly and swindling hard working people out of money is done by someone who is good and kind, but in my world this way of life is truly a monstrous carried out by monsters.

Praying on the old and vulnerable in my book makes you a cowardice monster.

Having said the above it is the innocent that suffers the victims of his crime and now his children in whom I doubt will learn from their fathers way of life as by all accounts he was a career criminal, I'm afraid society can only hope that his children learn from the mistakes their father made in life.

I do really hope that his children grow up to be law abiding citizens and follow the Golden Rule (Do to others what you want them to do to you)

In regards to the laying of flowers most people will never understand their mentality by laying flowers in the neighbourhood of Mr Osborn-Brooks nor them ours simply because our way of life is at opposite ends of the scale.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

I would have burned those tributes they left the burglar, after ripping them down so they cannot put them back up.

I believe they were put up and ripped down 3 times yesterday by the locals.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

a work related injury .

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

If it is the law, Arthur, then the law should be changed.

And you ARE entitled to use force against intruders. You are not expected to sit meekly by letting them do their worst. What planet are you on?

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

It's Arthur Old Boy while he often means well his views rarely relate to reality and after his being around police for as long as he states you'd think he'd know about reasonable force.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

It's particularly galling as the gentleman and his wife are now in hiding with police protection after threats from this individuals associates and these tributes have been placed yards from his home.

I hope that the couple can at least get someone to get their possessions, but imagine having to move at their ages? It will be very difficult for the lady with dementia too.

I wonder if this incident will reduce the value of their home when it's sold (I believe that they own the property)? Looks like the innocent victims have lost out in all ways.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

Reasonable force - if the miscreant is running away, you can’t stab them in the back (no matter how much you would like to).

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

Wasn't there a case in Manchester where that was deemed legal ?
i think he was climbing out of the window when the home owner stabbed him .

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

There were a couple of cases in Manchester around 2011 where home-owners stabbed burglars in self defence, but can’t find any where the burglars were climbing out a window when it happened.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

There was the case of farmer Tony Martin, who shot a teenage burlgar in the back. He was convicted of murder, later reduced to manslaughter on account he was a bit nuts. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)
So no, you can't attack someone fleeing.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

Yes l remember that as there was a huge furore at that time if l righty remember.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

Correct. It should not even have been manslaughter, they came on to his land to commit a crime, probably would have injured or killed Martin, we don't know, they took a risk and one of them paid a price.

Now with these floral tributes and the police telling local residents they must be left alone, bollocks to that. If that was MY fence they were attaching them to, I'd rip the bloody fence down, my property, my choice, it is absolutely abhorrent to have a shrine for a dead ******* at the place where he targeted to commit a crime.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

I don't understand why this particular spot is being used for the 'tribute' either, simply because this is where he was found and efforts were made to stop him from dying.

They obviously can't use the man's home where he was stabbed and I believe that he actually died and was pronounced dead in hospital.

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

Your original premise was correct as evidenced here

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/...ar-cricket-bat

And he used an illegal firearm, imo everyone concerned got what they deserved

Re: Updated: 78 Year old pensioner cleared of killing burglar
 

I guess it's meant to be intimidating.