Budget 2017
 

It's the proper budget today since they've moved it to the autumn.

Unless there is a surprise it looks like it will be underwhelming. May apparently kaboshed a plan to dramatically scale up housebuilding in the South East/London area because she's worried it will alienate the Tory voting base. A mistake I think because the last election showed that the lack of house ownership means they're not replacing voters as they get older. :erm:

For the young it seems this 25-30 railcard is their idea which, again, is rubbish since it doesn't even apply at peaktimes and for season tickets. Fair enough for some long distance rail journeys outside peak hours, every little helps, but is rather minor.

The government really has nothing to lose by being bold here, it's such a waste, like they're waiting to be chucked out. Might as well go for broke and doing something radical rather than a poxy railcard. It's just a zomble government.

Re: Budget 2017
 

Budget?

oh, you mean that event where they hike the price of beer & tobacco, slash the price of caviar & sushi, and promise to spend 279 trillion zillion pounds of non existent money on a grand scheme to help 1% of the country

:D:D

Re: Budget 2017
 

as long as they look after the elderly it should be ok

Re: Budget 2017
 

I think we know that will be ok ;)

Re: Budget 2017
 

Slap an environmental tax on bottled water. What comes out of the tap is perfectly good enough.

Re: Budget 2017
 

Will he have any money to play with after setting aside the b̶r̶i̶b̶e̶ legal divorce payment to the EU?

Re: Budget 2017
 

it is out of the tap it just has a fancy name for mug punters

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as i understand it they will be offered the deeds to the uk next

Re: Budget 2017
 

I agree

Re: Budget 2017
 

Most work offices have a cold water machine, it’s all I now drink at work.

Re: Budget 2017
 

They took that away from the NHS to save money, so we drink warm water coming out of the tap instead. Monkeys that work for the NHS that fix this **** say leave the tap running for 5/10 mins it gets to temperature then.

Re: Budget 2017
 

Growth projections down biggest news so far

Re: Budget 2017
 

Heading to 1.5% a year growth in early 2020s and not the 2% that was forecast back in March.

Re: Budget 2017
 

Also £400 million for electric car infrastructure. Not that much...

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Extra £2.8 billion for the NHS.

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100% council tax premium on empty properties :tu:

Re: Budget 2017
 

According to the BBC its (slightly) more ;

Re: Budget 2017
 

It's a start I guess. I guess it probably doesn't cost too much to add a charging point somewhere.

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I've heard talk of putting charging points in lamp-posts as they nowadays have a constant live feed. That would not be that expensive to do with a special cover to replace the existing one.

Re: Budget 2017
 

There would have to be a lot of charging points in the future to cover all the cars on the road that they want to be electric.

Could be the way forward though for a lot of things would deffo cut down on the amount of crap that is pumped into the atmosphere

Re: Budget 2017
 

I see they shafted the people they told Diesels are good.

Thank god I expected this and bought a brand new petrol engined car over diesel.

Re: Budget 2017
 

It's interesting that Hammond's encouraging the public to use more electricity i.e. to charge their electric cars at a time when the National Grid is struggling to cope with the existing demand simply because the government had made insufficient provision for the supply of electricity.

Re: Budget 2017
 

Sadly governments when it comes to developing a robust infrastructure with plenty of capacity is a bit like asking them to organise a piss up in a brewery,

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Wow! You mean street lamps have never had an electromechanical clock switching the supply on and off before now? Even at 61 I live and learn.

What were those council workers changing in the lamps when daylight savings ended? I guess I'll never know.

Re: Budget 2017
 

That's exactly why the utilities, rail etc. fell into such a decrepit state after decades of under investment by government. It's also the reason that taking them back into public ownership would be a massively expensive disaster. Politicians want the brownie points for telling people what they want to hear but, when faced with the reality of having to pay for it all via taxes or spending cuts elsewhere, soon get very cold feet about it all.

Re: Budget 2017
 

I think other countries manage to invest in infrastructure despite much of it being publically owned. After all we've all got to pay for it somewhere down the line, companies aren't in the business of losing money. At least if it were publically owned the investment the government puts it gets to reap the reward of, at the moment we're in the mad case where any real investment (i.e HS2) is paid for by the government but profit will be extracted by the companies who'll give some of it back in the form of tenders.

Re: Budget 2017
 

Where I used to live they were all switched en-mass in the local substation. If you were near it you could hear the contacter slam shut as the lights came on. The only thing in the lamp-post was a fuse and balast.

These days all the lamps have their own light sensor to switch them individually as it gets dark or light. Hence they all now have a constant live feed which could be used as a charging point.

Re: Budget 2017
 

Whoa there Osem! The rail companies fell into a decrepit state due to WWII and during that time cost thousands to repair and maintain far outstripping the revenue received from the Government for the contracts in place so much so that the only alternative was to take them into Government ownership as the companies were on the verge of going bust.

Yes, when B.R. came into existence there was an attempt to standardise everything thereby saving costs but going forward bad judgements by succeeding Governments added to the decay.

The rest about rail is for another discussion. Your post was about utilities so let's look at the rest.

Water. How many water shortages were ever declared under public ownership? How many reservoirs were closed after the utility went into private hands?

Gas. When has there ever been a shortage? OK, North Sea gas was supposed to last a lifetime (I remember the hype) but that was when we had elecricty production mainly relying on coal and to a lesser extent nuclear.

That nicely brings us to electricity. When has there ever been a shortage brought about by the lack of infrastructure or investment? You cannot include the winter of discontent under the labour party when power cuts were due to industrial action of unions.

As regards the GPO, it should never have been privatised but there was a deal done with the US that caused it which may have been beneficial to the country but we have never been made aware of.

To summarise, please explain this statement.

"the utilities, rail etc. fell into such a decrepit state after decades of under investment by government"

Re: Budget 2017
 

Yes they do but that's not ever happened here and isn't likely to hence my point. The arguments you raise applied just as much in the past as they do now and look what happened to our infrastructure. Unless you believe our glorious leaders have seen the light it'll just happen all over again but with the huge additional costs of nationalising it first.

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Thames Water has had to spend billions on rebuilding, repairing and replacing vast amounts of infrastructure for one. There was never enough money in public hands to enable the utilities to modernise for the future, hence it was all too often put off, just like replacing all those Victorian sewers we've known for decades would need to be replaced. Keeping pace, if at all, rather than building for the future seems to me what we got under nationalisation. Yes it could and should have been different but it wasn't.

I didn't say we had frequent power cuts or shortages in the past but the lack of investment, had these things not been privatised, would by now have left us with even bigger problems. Just look at the handling of nuclear power and we're still in a state of flux with that...

I wish that it'd had been different and I do think there's a strong case for HMG having control of certain key assets/utilities but if our politicians haven't made it work well in the past why would we imagine they can/will now?

Re: Budget 2017
 

Hmmm, for some reason I can't recall any water shortages in the Greater London area pre-privatisation.

Oh wait a minute, I forgot following many reservoir closures on privatisation Thames Water came up with a brilliant plan of recycling.

As regards those aging Victorian sewers what a cash cow that is turning out to be for Thames Water.

Re: Budget 2017
 

I didn't say there were water shortages pre privatisation, well there were in 1976 but that was extreme. Neither did I day there haven't been any problems with privatisation. There have. My argument, for the reasons I've explained and regretfully, is that nationalisation by and large didn't work particularly well in this country. It could have done had our politicians been more forward thinking but they weren't. Had things carried on as they'd been allowed to for decades then the utilities we all depend on would have become a great deal worse than they currently are but no I'm not saying that privatisation has been a panacea. It clearly hasn't.

Re: Budget 2017
 

It's a long time since British Rail and it was a different time. Trains are used more now rather than being an afterthought. It's not as if the current operators are doing so well either.

Besides it would be a government owned but separate organisation that will run it. Just like SNCF does in France or even TFL in London. TFL do a pretty good job running the oldest metro system in the world and one of the busiest and certainly better than the private operators for the commuter trains going into London. The East Coast Mainline was a success for the period it was publicly owned: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/m...ayer-235m.html

The best argument is the franchise system is simply a nonsense. It doesn't encourage long-term thinking from the operators so that still needs to be done by the government. You then get tenders going to the highest bidder who need to milk the line to return a profit to their shareholders. Their only incentive in terms of punctuality and quality is to do just enough to keep the line since competition is non-existent.

Without real competition the rational behind privatisation fails. It's only a religious devotion in the concept that meant it was privatised in the first place but people have become so obsessed with the battle between privatisation and nationalisation they don't take a pragmatic approach to it and decide what makes sense for which industry. Thatcherites think everything is improved by privatisation and Corbynites would nationalise Greggs if they could. :spin:

Re: Budget 2017
 

As I've already said, I have no great philosophical preference for privatisation (quite the reverse in these cases) but I've stated my opinions and reasons for thinking that a) going back to nationalisation is impossible and b) the same old funding problems would reappear. Just to unravel it all would cost billions and that's before anything else got done. Frankly I don't think our politicians/political system is up to the task and it makes me sad to say it. Just look at the NHS and how hard it is to fund and reform it to deliver what we all want. I don't want to see it privatised but do think it could be far better and more efficiently run. Where does that leave us?

Re: Budget 2017
 

To unravel it you just take back control as the franchises expire. We already own Network Rail so the initial cost will be buying rolling stock and setting up a body to manage it all which can merge with Network Rail. I think fundamentally we need to have the people who manage the trains, track and own the trains all under one body.

The NHS is a different topic but I think behind all the concerns about the use of private companies, reorganisations, levels or lack thereof of middle men the biggest problem is money. The pressures of an ageing and obese population combined with the cost of all the new treatments that keep us all live longer. It could be more efficient too but it would be interesting to compare it's waste to other health systems. Still the NHS is a huge further topic :D

Re: Budget 2017
 

That takes years and still leaves all the privatised utilities to buy back at massive cost plus having to explain the inevitable tax rises which will result. By the time all that's done the government responsible has likely gone so unless both sides agree on the way forward for the long term it falls apart. Maybe that's the reason we've always had this problem - the 2 main parties have always seen it very differently and tended to undo what the other has done.

Re: Budget 2017
 

You don't have to do the utilities as well. I am less fussed about them then the trains. It will take years but that's the least costly and disruptive way to do it and allows the government to ease into it rather than taking on the whole country in one go.

A subsequent government overturning would be a risk but if the public backs the nationalisation then it would be electoral punishing to go against it especially as it's in the process of happening. Popular measures do tend to persist.

Re: Budget 2017
 

Sky News‏
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Following @SkyNews

Budgets "have taken from the poor and given to the rich" over recent years

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/933792426375839744

Re: Budget 2017
 

Not a surprise there as that has been happening since the year dot.

Re: Budget 2017
 

I know you don't have to do the utilities as well but that's what Corbyn has been talking about and McDonnell has been banging on about privatising water citing Paris as an example and then denying he'd ever done so. They're as cynical as they are clueless.

https://order-order.com/2017/11/22/d...nells-honesty/

If nationalisation were that popular amongst UK tax payers we wouldn't have got to this point because our governments would have had no reason to fear spending what was needed by raising taxes. The fact that elsewhere in the world people are willing to pay for these things out of the common pot doesn't mean that's the case here. Anyway, if they carry on making these claims sooner of later they're going to have to come clean about the costs and spending implications and we'll see what people vote for.

Re: Budget 2017
 

I would never wish to go back to the days of the nationalised railways, and nor would most people who remember what it was like. Grimy old trains (if you ran your finger along the interior window frame, your finger went black), old pre-war carriages, turned up sandwiches, surly staff and late running trains.

I still remember my delight at seeing those bright new trains replacing the creaking old stock after privatisation, and being amazed at the improvement of the selection of food and drink on trains. Ok, they still don't always run on time, but there are many more trains, they are longer, and they do actually try to keep up with the timetable.

There may still be faults - there are too many people standing on trains, the ticketing needs sorting out and the infrastructure still keeps letting us down, but to those who want to see the train companies nationalised, I would say be careful what you wish for! No good will come of that.

Re: Budget 2017
 

yes but always get so much worse under the nasty party Den

Re: Budget 2017
 

Yes you're right, it does under the nasty party, that being currently the Labour Party in association with the Momentum lot.

Re: Budget 2017
 

Thing is, it's the same but older grimy trains, and a hell of a lot more expensive and crowded ! Rail privatisation had been a disaster for the passenger.

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Browser still not fixed ? How frustrating! :D

Re: Budget 2017
 

I don't know what line you are on, but all the trains in my neck of the woods are modern and clean.

I know that there are one or two unmodernised lines, but I think there are plans afoot to modernise these too. However, most of the country is in quite a good position, with up to date coaches. The old British Rail simply didn't have that sort of money to invest, and if the railways are nationalised, it's likely to happen all over again.

Re: Budget 2017
 

You need to go further afield OB as perhaps you should visit the West country and Cornwall and you will see plenty of rolling stock more then 40 years old with electrification just a distant dream despite repeated promises by politicians

Re: Budget 2017
 

Or anywhere in the North of England. Electrification plans/promises for many lines has been abandoned. The rolling stock dates from the 1970s. Different story in London of course, unlimited money for Cross Rail. Just like the rich/poor divide, the SE/anywhere else divide gets greater. Tories divide and rule, no change there.

Re: Budget 2017
 

Some people clearly don't have a clue what nasty means and we're still waiting for their examples of successful socialist states. They huff and they puff and they deny and they deflect and they hate because that's all they've got. Hypocrites of the highest order.

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Yes and why wasn't all that sorted during the 13 years of Labour when they had a parliamentary majority which meant they couldn't have been stopped and when Brown was spending money like it was going out of fashion? It didn't happen then and it wouldn't happen under those 2 Marxist dinosaurs Corbyn and McDonnell. Under them we'd wind up like Venezuela. ;)

Re: Budget 2017
 

You forgot about him selling our gold reserves at rock bottom prices. :D

But Spot on. Could not have said it any better. :)

Re: Budget 2017
 

Yes well some people have very selective memories and prefer to fixate on the fax roll crisis within the NHS... :rofl:

Re: Budget 2017
 

only ever been and ever will be one nasty party that is the tories

Re: Budget 2017
 

Really ? and there was me thinking it was the Nazi party (and current counterparts).

Re: Budget 2017
 

really obliviously speaking about the labour and tories of course they worse else where in world

Re: Budget 2017
 

They still have those ancient Pacers in the North from what my Dad tells me and what a glorious ride they are apparently..:Yikes::eeek:

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Governments from both sides are highly culpable for the complete lack of planning for the Railways and many other things in this country sadly as if both ditched their predictable political dogma and concentrated on giving this country some decent future infrastructure we would not have the shambolic mess that currently prevails sadly in this country on our important infrastructure.

Re: Budget 2017
 

Another take on the gold sale

https://www.ft.com/content/5788dbac-...b-00144feabdc0

Remind me who was in charge last time we allowed the bank of England to sell half the gold for rock bottom prices, was it Ted Heath, I really can't recall

Re: Budget 2017
 

Lol I was on one this morning Den ! Overcrowded, overpriced and late ! It has a charm, I think ! In the great public/private ownership debate, railways are not a good advert for the private sector (except for the shareholders).

Re: Budget 2017
 

So this is where the debate is taking us, going back to seriously half a life time away of political mistakes, ok I have no problem with this.

So Ted Heath was PM early 70’s, just remember who and which party was in power after him and caused the Winter of Discontent, dead bodies piling up, because the grave diggers were on strike, rubbish piling up in street, the electricity going off at certain times of the day because the miners strikes. Cheers, thanks a lot for that Labour.

It took a Tory government to sort that mess out. Then the country suffered again for 13 years from 1997 to 2010, leaving the country penniless again.

It’s always the same with Labour, spend now, payback later, but not really, the Tories have to do that. :rolleyes:

Re: Budget 2017
 

Sort the mess out :rofl: it would've sorted itself out, it's reciprocal, boom and bust all these people do with their little ideologies is make proples suffering worse and for every horrific Labour disaster there's a conservative one to match, sometimes exactly, how many people lost their houses under John major and iirc ted heath was in charge again during the miners strike, truth be known we could trade this of all day but the reality is I think I am actually sick to death of the whole dammed lot of them, there was a time when they offered hope to the electorate now all they have got is I might be bad but he might be worse

Re: Budget 2017
 

I am not really sick of them, I think we have to be realistic into how much governments can influence the economy when it comes to growth and recessions, but I am sick of a relentless partisanship for parties rather than policies. People treat parties as football teams where their party is right and the other is wrong no matter what.

Look at the measure for controlling price rises from utility companies. It was economic illiteracy, full marxism, when 'Red Ed' introduced it. May puts it in the Manifesto and it was listening to the concerns of hard-working people.

Or Stamp Duty from this Government. Corbynites outraged and calling it as boon to the middle-class when their own manifesto had the same policy this very year.

It's increasingly clear people don't believe in anything other than supporting their party. You could switch the manifestos around and some people would strongly argue for it just as passionately.

Re: Budget 2017
 

That is why I piped up, one party seems to be getting a completely free ride no matter what they do simply because they're not the opposition and I'm not saying they can't have an influence I'm saying generally they don't because all they want to do is tinker around the edges

Re: Budget 2017
 

Oddly, McDonnell still doesn't seem to be able to back up his claims with any numbers for how much privatisation amongst other things would cost. Last week he got all shorty with a reporter who dared to ask for some numbers yet he still hasn't got any. To think some folks imagine this guy could be Chancellor... :nutter:

https://order-order.com/2017/12/03/m...ic-sector-pay/

Re: Budget 2017
 

Looks like the Brexit negotiations are progressing well.
https://www.ft.com/content/c2dde2f6-...9-c64b1c09b482

Re: Budget 2017
 

Posts have been deleted! Enough of the personal attacks, it’s happening again and I will not tolerate it.