Las Vegas: Mass shooting in Mandalay Bay
 

Terrible.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41466116 McCarran airport closed, and police are investigating another incident.

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As usual in these things the reports are all over the place, it sounds very bad at the moment though.

Very sad :(

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Death toll is rising.... now 20

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Yes truly awful. Surprised it isn't more tbh but I guess it could well be given how many people were around just enjoying themselves. :(

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Absolutely terrible news.:(

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Local police seem to indicate lone local man. Daily Mail blame ISIS.

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My husband says that the gunman is 64..seen on the BBC. They are looking for a woman companion.50 dead 200 injured.

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The gun debate has been done many times but how much easier it is to kill so many people so quickly when there's easy access to heavy automatic weapons. It's so sad but nothing will change.

I guess we're all wondering what the motive was.

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Sadly the death toll now is at least 50 dead and 200 injured.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-41466148

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I sincerely hope that this tragedy will cause a re-think of gun laws in the same way Dunblane did here in the UK.

I read this on the BBC report and was appalled:

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l sadly doubt that anything will change ianch.

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50 people are now confirmed dead, the deadliest mass shooting in US history.

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Unfortunately that will never happen. The gun lobby in the US is too powerful.

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Correct, it's a debate we've had here after so many appalling mass killings in the US. Very little ever changes no matter how many people wind up dead.

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The sad thing is, it won't. Obama tried and was defeated at every turn. The NRA, is a powerful gun lobby in America and they endorsed Trump.

Americans cherish the 2nd Amendment, right to bear arms like we do fresh air. But it is absolutely crazy how they can buy assault rifles and ammunition that would suit a small army.

But for goodness sake let them keep their 2nd Amendment but ban automatic assault rifles.

---------- Post added at 13:45 ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 ----------

They are saying on news latest police update, the gunman had 8 guns. :erm:

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You would have thought there would be some system which flags it up when any citizen has a abnormal amounts of guns as l find it staggering how one individual can get his hands on 8 guns..

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The trouble is there are very different laws on gun ownership in different states. I believe Nevada's are some of the most lax in the US.

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Correction, he had 10 rifles. TEN! Absolute crazy.

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But he needed those 10 rifles to defend himself from a small army attacking his home. Plus, allowing people to bear arms stops things like this from happening!? :confused:

The NRA horse crap over the next few days will be as useless as always.

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You only have to watch some of those cable TV channels which show programmes about shooting, gun makers etc. in the US to see what sort of weapons some of these people go for and even have custom made. They'll argue it's all perfectly safe and for leisure only but they have access to some seriously deadly stuff and I don't see how anyone who can obtain such weapons (legally or otherwise) in one state can be prevented from taking them off to any other. :shrug:

I don't buy the "I've got a bigger gun than you" school of deterrents, all that happens is people buy more of them which is exactly what the makers and NRA want.

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They didn't go anything when dozens of young children were shot at Sandy Hook, they won't do anything now.

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About the gunman:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41472462

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They'll say more guns is the answer, if more people were armed they could have defended themselves, they said the same about the cinema massacre because everyone blasting away in the dark can only decrease the death toll

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Sadly its 58 people confirmed dead now.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41472462

We will see..but I have serious doubts.

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You have to wonder what sort of person, no matter how distraught, could just mow down complete strangers - men, women, children, young, old etc. etc. :confused:

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l have to agree with you as l have serious doubts about those claims.

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Sorry but I fed up of these stories from the US overtaking our radio/TV programs.

I'll explain

:rant:I have a soon to be ex-friend on facebook, who says Guns protect againts guns. I'm going to say to her, so the 500+ people who where killed/shot at are to blame as they weren't armed to protect themselves then?

Assult rifles have one and only one purpose, and that is to kill, and that is on a battlefield, and has no place for non-military purpose.

Why isn't it being treated as a terrorist attack, is it beacuse he is white?0

We need to ban any NRA members from entry into the UK and treat the NRA as a terrorist group.

I would fell safer walking in NK with a US flag on my back with death to Kim, than going to the US ATM.

:rant:

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To be a terrorist attack it would have to have had some sort of ideological component, either political or religious, we don’t know his motivations yet.

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I reckon it's more likely that he was someone with a screw loose but time will reveal all. Of course some would say you'd have to have a lot of screws loose to be influenced by IS.

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Really?

http://www.nra.org.uk/

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Well terrorism is defined as

What the reason you cant make anymore of a political statement than shooting battlefield weaopns at people.

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Just imagine how many American lives wouldn't have been lost if the US version had been subject to the same rules as their UK namesake.

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Hopefully a lot more will be revealed in the coming days about his motivations.

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some people are saying he recently converted to Islam.:rolleyes:

I guess this is from NRA nuts.

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Actually in Nevada according to NRS 202.4415 "Acts of terrorism" defined.

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Some fantastic early tweets from lefty sources almost taking joy in describing him as a "white Christian terrorist".

These tweets have quietly started to disappear....

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I can find a whole bunch of righty sources that have labelled him a Bernie-Bro, Democrat, who hated 'rednecks' so shot up a country musical festivals. One that have said he was a member of ANTIFA and others which labelled the wrong man as the shooter and piled onto his facebook. This is way after the attack.

People on the internet are trolls.

---------- Post added at 19:15 ---------- Previous post was at 19:13 ----------

Why is a political statement? The school shootings aren't labelled as such.

We just have to wait and see what, if any, reason he had.

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He had even a bigger arsenal then that.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...uns-explosives

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...b00d657809d16e

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Classy, politically correct point scoring whilst they're still clearing the bodies of the street, shame it's just their tweets that disappeared quietly and not them

I tell ya GUNS should not be so easily obtainable!!!

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He was a multimillionaire, so a little matter of gun laws wouldn't have stopped him.

They can't un-invent guns so they will still be out there.

A key difference with the UK is that we have never really had that much of a gun culture in the past. Evidence of that is that the UK is one of the few countries where Police officers don't routinely have firearms.

Using the label of "Terrorism" is complete and utter ... nonsense. Terrorism is more about the threat of FUTURE violence, if a particular aim isn't followed. A one-off "Terrorist" act without a shared aim would be meaningless. The only "Terrorist" aim he could have had is the introduction of new gun laws. How would the anti-gun lobby react to that?

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Mick's point on why assault rifles (or any rapid fire variant) are not banned is the real issue here. Banning all guns is bridge too far for enough Americans that make or influence policy but there cannot be any rational defence of wanting to own such weapons.

What would be educational is a live televised Senate/Congressional hearing where the NRA lobbyists and NRA-supporting Senators & Congressmen are shown first hand footage of their constituents being killed & maimed and then being asked to justify the need for such weapons.

The relatives of the dead should also be invited to attend ..

Also, a point to ponder:

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Leaving out personal attacks and accidents, I wonder how many of the killers would be described as Democrats and how many as Republicans?

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I'm left wondering how many of the injured are covered by health insurance and if the NRA would like to step up to the plate to cover their costs if they are not?

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Of course we rarely have to worry about that here do we. We just assume that if we're hurt in an accident, attack or whatever the NHS will look after us and there'll be support (albeit not as much as we'd like). Clearly the Americans don't want an NHS but surely their govt. provides for those who aren't insured in such circumstances or don't they? There's not only the injuries etc. to think of but all the care, rehabilitation etc. which many will require not to mention financial support for those who'll never be able to support themselves or their families again. Who takes care of that for the uninsured in America? :shrug:

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Police are now saying that after searches of his properties he had 47 firearms. Why anyone would need that amount of firepower for "enjoyment" is beyond comprehension.

Also his semi-automatic rifles were allegedly converted to full automatic with this legal $99 kit.

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Absolutely staggering how one person can amass that amount of firearms.:shocked:

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It's needed to protect him and his family from criminals and the tyranny of guv'munt.

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i only have guns six guns myself no point in going over the top .

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Any of them auto or semi-auto fire?

---------- Post added at 10:02 ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 ----------

3% of Americans own 50% of all guns in the USA (150 million out of 300 million) - an estimated 7.7 million Americans who own between eight and 140 guns.

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no that's a bit over the top for rabbits and pigeons

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Is it weapons like that the Founding Fathers were referring to I wonder? Where does the right to bear arms stop? I find it bizarre that anyone would want to own weapons like that and what use are lesser weapons if you're faced with something like that? It just becomes a race for more firepower and more weapons doesn't it?

People talk about carrying weapons so they can fight back if attacked but in the event of a mass shooting incident how are the police going to know who's who? They're not going to have time to ask are they and what about the danger from crossfire etc. from those who may own guns but have no experience of using them in such situations? :shrug:

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If you're going to bring "Is that what the Founding Fathers thought" into it , where does it all end? What about all the other Amendments. Or is it yet another in the long list of the principles that only apply when the Left/Democrats(in the US) say it does. Eg Free speech/Freedom of Expression.

Chances are as a multimillionaire he would have found other ways to carry out attacks.

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I wonder if anyone has thought of suing the NRA for damages?

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I agree but that is the argument the gun supporters are using to justify owning whatever weapons they feel they need. I think they should all be banned but I'm not an American.

In this case it does seem he planned this very carefully for reasons still unknown but most gun incidents in the US are the result of unplanned arguments, disputes etc. which get out of hand and if the weapon at hand happens to be an automatic rifle as opposed to a handgun obviously there's likely to be many more casualties than if it isn't.

Of course none of that precludes anyone, who's either suddenly gone berserk or planned a big attack, from killing lots of people by other, readily available, means which is exactly what the ISIS murderers have done in various European countries including ours. The absence of guns won't stop people killing others but it's really not right that ordinary people can get hold of all manner of high powered weapons so easily. I can't see it ever being changed though.

---------- Post added at 12:47 ---------- Previous post was at 12:42 ----------

Given the hold the NRA seems to have over so many politicians, I'd imagine they'd need deep pockets and powerful friends to do that.

Maybe legal action of some sort is what will eventually change all this but I'd have thought, in a nation of highly paid lawyers prepared to sue anyone for just about anything, they'd have tried it before now. :shrug:

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The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA), a 2005 law passed with the support of gun companies and the National Rifle Association, shields the industry from lawsuits when third parties “criminally or unlawfully misuse” their guns.

Link

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This is exactly it iMO.

Adding guns to everyday life is just dangerous and allows this to escalate quickly. As you said everyday arguments can get out of control, there are many cases of children 'playing' with these weapons and shooting others, people thinking there is an intruder in the house and shooting their relatives. Adding a gun to high stress situations is a recipe for disaster. As we've also seen routine police stops are fraught with risk in the states because the cop, race issues aside, doesn't know if the person in the car has a gun.

And even the criminal element is helped by having high availability of guns. It's not impossible that, had there been tighter control, Stephen Paddock would still acquired this weaponry but had it been harder it might have helped and increased the chances someone would spot something amiss.

There is no risk or hindrance to those with criminal intent from being armed in the states. Most of the time they've only broken the law once they follow though with whatever it is they plan to do. It may not be impossible in Europe to acquire weapons but it's a lot harder and they commit a crime by attempting to get them, increasing the risk they get exposed before they do anything.

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Wiping out the majority of Native American tribes, almost making the buffalo extinct.. still hunting defenceless animals, killing school kids and numerous adults.

Fact gun deaths out strip car deaths in the USA.

The right to bear arms SUCKS big time.

Make America Great Again (Trump)... really!

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It does suck because it is a so outdated piece of the U.S Constitution.

Let's look at the text of the 2nd Amendment from 1791...

“A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”

When that text was written and formed part of the U.S Constitution in 1791. Semi-Automatic guns and rifles had not been invented and wouldn't be until another 100 years later. I'm sure the right to bear arms granted over 200 years ago, did not grant the right to bear arms of such powerful weapons, but because the 200 year old text is so ambiguous, as well as out of date, owning such powerful guns is perfectly legal.

If this was not the only issue. Every week, infact, even today, there is a story of negligent gun owners in America, leaving their legally owned gun, for their young kids to find and shoot and blow their heads off or the sibling or both.

But tragedy after tragedy of gun violence, talk of altering or changing the 2nd Amendment, would still be sacrilege to many Americans.

Even if America adopted a more stricter gun control program, the problem would be, closing the stable doors, after the horse has bolted, as the amount of guns still in circulation, would see the issue of a gun control system seem too little, too late.

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So why are Canadians and Swiss relatively immune from this kind of thing in spite of similar levels of gun ownership?

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If you are talking about Guns per Capita, Canada and Switzerland don't have similar gun ownership levels as the U.S. In fact no country comes close to America.

In America, there are 112 guns owned per 100 people. So as statistics go, there is more guns in circulation than there are people living in the U.S.

The next country below the U.S is Serbia and it drops to 58 guns per 100 people.

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esti...ita_by_country

As for immunity, I don't think it plays in to it, Canada laws are more up to date. Don't know about the Swiss. But it's no wonder the U.S has issues with the level of gun ownership it has.

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I'd take that link with a heavy pinch of salt, it's based on very flawed figures. In Switzerland every adult male under 42 is armed to the teeth for national defence and it's one of the safest places to live

http://rense.com/general14/safestplace.htm

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I think Canada at least has much tougher background tests and a month long waiting period as well.

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It does say on the Wikipedia source that data is from 2007, so it's considerably out of date.

I wonder Maggy if they could be???

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Perhaps if there was a group who could take things on for the victims of gun crime then perhaps that is a option because for one person or a family it would probably be pretty expensive to try to sue the NRA.

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They could try, but the NRA would win every time. They would just hide behind the 2nd Amendment, that gives Americans the right to bear arms.

As the death toll stands as of now, the Las Vegas massacre, where 58 people died in the worst U.S Mass shooting, in modern U.S history. I've seen many Americans still clinging to their gun rights, I have seen the same argument of, "No one is taking my guns off me!"

And it's even funnier when Americans see the British criticise their gun ownership policy. "You Brits don't have guns, but knives get used and you can get stabbed instead."

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It seems like having mandatory, federal, background checks and registrations would at least help without preventing people from buying guns. I.E You have to obtain a licence, the licence is recorded at a federal level and requires a background check which searches any suspected link to terrorism, any violent criminal behaviour and any troublesome mental health issues. Each gun purchase is subsequently recorded against that licence and requires an additional waiting period. It would be illegal to sell or give a gun to someone with that licence and without the registration.

We do this, albeit without the background check, for people to drive cars so why not to own guns? I heard that people who are on no-fly lists can still buy semi-automatic rifles. That is a mental situation to be in. It highlights the power of the NRA that they've all lost quite a degree of freedom over the internet and air-travel arrangements but their freedom to amass a vast arsenal has increased since 9/11.

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And possibly considerably inaccurate


The data offered by the Small Arms Survey has several times been denounced as misleading or plain wrong. The best known case is the estimation of the amount of firearms in Finland. The number was so high that virtually every Finnish family should have an illegal firearm at home (on top of all the legal ones) to be true. This number has since then kept popping up as the Small Arms Survey has not corrected it, despite even the Finnish ministry of interior making a statement that the numbers are completely wrong.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Arms_Survey

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Maybe also a limit on the number of guns able to be held and a law to prevent owners selling their old weapons to anyone other than than a licensed dealer. On the news the other day I'm sure I heard that in some places it's possible to buy a gun legitimately according to the various state rules etc but then sell it on or give it to whoever you want. That just sounds bizarre. :shrug:

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Yup. I think 'gun shows/expos' are allowed to sell weapons without any checking etc in some states. Literally turn up, hand over cash, walk out with it. Not sure how true that is though.

Part of the idea of having a weapon registered to a licence is then you need to account for it. If it's used in a crime and the serial number is registered to you then you need to explain how it came to be in the possession of the person who committed the crime.

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Probably, in part, the type of weapons and the reasoning behind their ownership - e.g. hunting, former military service etc. and the way in which guns are generally perceived in those countries.

It does seem that a lot of people in the US own guns for very different reasons from that, amongst which is that they just get a buzz out of owning the biggest/best/latest/fastest firing etc. etc. They may not initially have set out to use those weapons in anger but the fact that they do own them always allows that possibility in certain situations when someone goes berserk or descends into mental illness for example.

Nobody needs an automatic rifle for anything legitimate so you have to wonder about the mindset of people like this guy who have an armoury of high powered weapons at hand. Maybe his stockpiling of all those weapons was the first sign of his descent into serious mental illness. :shrug:

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http://factmyth.com/factoids/switzer...s-to-own-guns/ is worth a read.

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Nice one Igni!

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It's well worth a read, even if it has used the same dubious small arms survey for some of it's facts

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I read/heard that its easier for some one with mental health issues to get guns, than a woman to get an abortion.

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I find this absolutely abhorrent...

https://news.sky.com/story/las-vegas...ctims-11439792

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What a horrible thing to do! Boycotts are coming I hope.

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Actually blame the system, as why should the hotel be liable for what a guest does.

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Should a hotel allow a guest to bring 23 rifles and one handgun onto the premises with no consequence? Maybe the US should mandate metal detectors in hotel lobbies? I recently visited India and the hotel I stayed in an airport style scanner for luggage coming into the hotel.

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Got to admire the logic behind a country thinking about putting hotel detectors in hotels and armed guards at schools before questioning tighter regulation on weapons.

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Sadly, I can well believe the US would look at things installing scanning equipment in the hotel rather than working to resolve the problem at the source.

It won't solve the problem. Suing the victims diverts blame and may protect the company from legal action, but it will hurt their public image, which may well end up costing more than the legal action(s) would have.

Where's the blame though? MGM Resorts are trying to blame the company that provided security, but what were they supposed to do? Hold the event in a bullet proof building, and ensure that all the exits and entrances are covered? Booked every room in the Mandelay Bay within sight of the event?

The shooter? Well, yes, but suing him is unlikely to be profitable. His family? They are likely innocent, and probably couldn't afford the legal action anyway.

I've often said I think Guns need to be controlled more tightly, but I don't agree with a full gun ban.

IMO, Guns should be restricted, as they are in this country (it is possible to legally own a gun in this country, but even then there are restrictions, like keeping it away from the ammo). That's not the whole solution. There also needs to be a massive amnesty to enable people to hand in unlicensed guns. Bearing in mind the number of guns is greater than the number of people in the country, it would probably be the largest gun amnesty ever.

Even that's not the whole solution. The Authorities can (if they have the will, which they seem not to) restrict guns, and launch amnesties. But, they can't do the third thing. US Society needs to change it's "guns are good" attitude. They don't need to do a 180 and start preaching "Guns are bad", but they do need to stop almost worshipping them. The Authorities would also need to advertise (online, on TV, on the radio and by holding courses) that guns are not to be worshipped.

That is not going to happen over night, it would actually likely take decades. It also won't happen when so many politicians are paid for by the NRA.

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I can't because it's actually illogical.;)

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BREAKING: FBI concludes its investigation into the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history without determining a motive. After nearly 16 months, the agency says it can't determine why gunman Stephen Paddock killed 58 people in October 2017. Source: Associated Press.

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While I don't believe in a God or the Devil as such, I do believe there is Good and Evil in the universe. I also believe that neither necessarily has a reason. Sometimes people are good for no reason other than being good, and sometimes people are evil for no reason.

I don't know enough about the man to judge whether he was merely evil, or he had some sort of problem that caused him to do this. A lot of serial killers do it because they are often the sort of men (and it is, sadly, usually men) who people don't notice, and they want to be noticed, even if it involves the death of them and others. Sometimes the reason has to do with their upbringing, Sometimes the "reason" is something mundane, like the song, "I don't like Mondays". I put the word Reason in quotes, because I think that often those who give mundane reasons like that because they don't know the reason, or don't care, and just make something up.
Sometimes, there is no reason.

What I do know is that I think America has a problem with guns (almost an addiction), and I think that is likely helping increase the number of mass shootings.

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It would have been hard for him to murder 58 people from the hotel window by throwing kitchen knives at them so i totally agree with you.There will always be ways for people to murder others but having access to these weapons just makes it easier and quicker and gives the cops less time to act and stop them ...

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I can tell you why he killed 58 people.

Because he could.

US gunlaws are a crime, you can walk in to a Walmart, but food a assault rifle (a weapon with one purpose and that to kill) only one use and thats a battlefield, and enough ammo to start WW3.

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Bit of a bump…

Gun firm Remington pays Sandy Hook school shooting families $73m

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3...5c8b17891a3062

Things may change now - gun companies may lose money now they may forced to control who they sell their guns to, and will be under pressure from their insurers.

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It could only happen in America. :rolleyes:

Its completely ridiculous, how on earth are they responsible for the actions of lunatic.

(and how does a bankrupt company pay anything ?)

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It’s the lack of sensible gun control that’s the real issue in the US.

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Simple cause and effect: if you market and sell assault-style rifles to a consumer market for "home defence", you must be accept the consequences of your decision.

U.S. Supreme Court declines to shield gun maker from Sandy Hook lawsuit

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Based on that logic, surely it's a joint liability between the manufacturer of the weapon and the manufacturer of the ammunition. One is pretty much useless without the other.

Unless of course you're either a) going to club your target with the butt of an assault rifle or b) going to stand and throw small calibre rounds at targets?

Should the retailer be held accountable for the sale?

Should Ford be held accountable because someone drove one of their vehicles into a crowd in Wisconsin killing people?


Personally, I'm absolutely against the sale of weapons of this nature. However, since the sale of the device is legal. then it comes down to misuse by the individual.

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And it’s not going to change, as long as the 2nd Amendment exists in its current form. Changing it or removing it, requires substantial ratification from 75% of State to State legislatures, even if both houses of Congress super approve a new amendment.

You would think, after the assassination of 4 of their presidents, several mass shootings, the worst of which this thread is attributed to, they would do something, anything.

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Sums it up nicely :Yes:

Guns are now ingrained far too deeply into American culture, remove them from general sale and watch the crime figures rise.

It's also big business isn't it, stop selling weapons to the public and they'd put a lot of people out of work ;)

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On the first point, I guess you are right although I do not know if AR-15 ammo is also usable in other firearms

The argument is specious, Ford vehicles are designed, marketed and sold to transport people and not to deliberately kill them.

Re: Las Vegas: Mass shooting in Mandalay Bay
 

But ammo is sometimes shared between weapons so unless the ammo is unique to that firearm how is there a responsibility.


Yes the retailer does have some accountability. Too easy to get these and too easy to bypass the checks even if applied.

Re: Las Vegas: Mass shooting in Mandalay Bay
 

The issue is the marketing, not the ability of the weapon to kill people.

"had been illegally marketed by the company to civilians as a combat weapon for waging war and killing human beings."

Presumably the ammo supplier hadn't done this.