Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

I think I've got to the bottom of a long-running intermittent problem with my Superhub 3, so am sharing here in case it's useful to anyone else.

In short, if I plug a Netgear Powerline adaptor directly into one of the ports of a Superhub 3, then the Superhub 3 will fail, losing Internet connectivity and the web management interface becoming unresponsive. Unplug the Powerline adaptor and re-start the Superhub 3: all good. Plug in the Powerline adaptor: Superhub 3 stops working.

I have tried replacing Powerline adaptors, individual Ethernet cables, and swapping Superhub 3 devices and this problem has persisted. The workaround I have found is to connect the Powerline adaptor to an extension Ethernet switch, which is then connected to the Superhub 3. That seems to work fine.

So my working theory is that there is something hardware related in the Superhub 3 which will bring down the whole hub when it's connected directly to a Powerline adaptor.

What is still unexplained is that it will sometimes work for six weeks at a time, but if you have to re-start the Superhub 3 for any reason the problem will emerge. At it's worst, I had to do a factory reset of the Superhub 3 to get it to work again.

But I've changed almost everything in this set up, and the only consistent thing that causes this to happen is the Superhub 3/Powerline adaptor combination.

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

Considering that VM actively promote (and sell) Powerline adapters on their website, although the idea that the Hub 3 is somehow incompatible with them is a bit hard to swallow and as long as the hardware is operating within spec then ethernet is ethernet and should all work together.

It's possible that you do have a faulty hub and/or something really odd with your power supply but there is another potential answer.

What is on the other Powerline adapter(s)? All a PL adapter is, is an ethernet bridge, is it possible that somehow you have created a bridging loop somewhere in your setup? You say it works when connected via a switch? What model of switch is it? It may well be that this switch can do loop detection in some way (spanning tree) or that you have something else which is jabbering and the switch is doing flow control?

What I would do (unless you have already tried this) is to disconnect everything from the SH, just plug a PC/laptop in to one of the LAN ports and test, if OK then connect the one-and-only PL to it and test again. Keep gradually adding devices and see what happens.

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

not really. VM consistently under estimate their customer base and bang out cheap untested shubs with the hope that the majority of customers don't want to use the advanced features (what happened to the USB port and printer/storage sharing?).
Although they should work in theory, VM probably haven't tested it and definitely won't have invested any money in it as far as incorporating it as a working feature on the shub. Just look at the wireless on the shub1 and the xbox problem. I imagine this is going to be one of their unforeseen problems which is going to get fixed in the next iteration of the shub when customer demand/technological advancement is such that it is now common place (e.g. everyone now uses wireless) and it is a feature that they have got to improve upon and support.

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

What are you on about. Powerline should just be an ethernet connection as far as the SH3 is concerned. Do you expect VM to test the SH3 with every device with an ethernet connection?

What "advanced feature" is being used exactly?

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

no but when they impose a specific type of cpe on millions of customers then I do expect them to do extensive tests on many different types and brands of equipment. This isn't the first time I have heard of powerline adapters taking down either the router or the wan connection on a shub. If it is as straight forward as you say it is then why is it happening.

You might not remember but after the multitude of problems and fiasco that was the shub 1 (the shub crashing under load comes to mind) VM obviously realised that they couldn't/didn't want to pay for proper testing prior to release of the shub 2 and instead opted for extensive customer trials. I signed up for it and I remember them being specific and asking what the makeup of your network was, how it was designed, what type of devices you had and brands. I was actually quite impressed because it showed they were trying to be as thorough as possible and realised that they hadn't done the job properly first time round.

Powerline adapters are going to be more common place as time goes on and saying "we guarantee it will works with X brand or model" isn't good enough. Customers need to have choice and able to go out and buy what meets their needs and VM need to look in to what is causing it and get it fixed.


As far as the op goes, and I really should have mentioned this first, shub's are sub-par routers and if you want to forgo annoying and stupid things like this (because rtho782 is right, it should work) then invest in a proper router which you know is going to work. When you buy a proper router like Asus or Linksys, the manufacturers know where their money comes from and make sure their routers do the job.

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

If the powerline adaptor is presenting anything to the superhub but a standards compliant ethernet port, then the powerline adaptor is faulty ;)

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

that's a lot of faulty power line adapters then ;)

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

What I'm saying is it's not it being a powerline adaptor that makes it special.

Many of these use the same Qualcomm Atheros chipsets. It sounds like there is an issue with that talking to the Intel Puma chipset in the SH3, but it's not down to it being a powerline adaptor. The SH3 doesn't need to know if it's a powerline adaptor, an RPI, a computer, or whatever the hell else on the ethernet port.

As to which device is at fault, we can't really say.

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

If it is that generic and not related to a specific device or brand of device then surely it would be easier for VM to diagnose and fix?

I can because all the posts in this forum are from people using shub's and none of them are from people using a 3rd party/proper router

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

Not really, VM don't design the chipset.


Ok, show me the SH3 refusing to make an ethernet connection to any other device? We have a SH3 working over ethernet with everything except this one powerline adaptor, and this powerline adaptor working with everything except the SH3, so how can we say which is at fault?

Ethernet is a well published standard, I can only imagine one or other device is not properly complying.

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

because this is one of many posts I have seen of people complaining that their powerline adapters aren't working with the shub and it goes beyond Netgear.

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

But I bet it's all the same chipset, they are basically the same devices with different labels on. If you tested these powerline adaptors with another (non-VM) Intel Puma chipset modem you may well get the same issues.

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

I've used TP link and more recently Devolo power line adapters with SH3 and no problem at all

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

I was on of the triallists for VM's Netgear Powerline adapters connected to the Hub 3.

No problem whatsoever.

For your case I'd need to get hands on to take it further.

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

Same problem here but with TP-Link 1200 adapters. I received the SH3 a month ago and it worked fine in router mode until yesterday. Now it refuses to work with the TP link adapters with the exact same symptoms as the OP described.
Work around is to set the SH3 to modem mode and use an external router which is obviously not ideal.

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

It is absolutely ideal and what everyone should be doing if they a) want optimal performance and b) want all the devices on the network to work in harmony

You pay for what you get and isp's aren't going to spend the time and money in buying routers, investing in and testing features which they claim a high proportion of their customers won't use because they know anyone who is serious about networked usb storage, print servers, dns settings etc will just buy a proper router right off the bat. I had to have my own router back in 2001 because ntl only supplied modems but I have had the opportunity over the years as technology has changed to switch to a version of the shub as my old routers have become out dated but I haven't. I have always had my own proper router (most recently the Asus ac68u on offer for £110 atm fyi) and never once tried the shub in router mode because I know it would give me a head ache and stress me out. I have made many many posts over the years about this but suffice to say that when you invest in a proper router everything works properly, you never have any problems and your network runs smoothly with everything ticking away in the background no problem. I have got a large home network with many pc's, laptops, tablets, phones, TV's sky boxes, printers, NAS' etc all connected. Everything works perfectly all the time, I never have any connectivity issues and from a troubleshooting perspective, I know that on the one or two times a year the internet connection drops that it isn't a problem with the client or router and that it is an isp network outage because I am that confident about the equipment I have bought (a combination of Asus and Linksys routers, Linksys switches and every single wired device and room and connected with Belkin cat5e patch cables).

Just some friendly words of wisdom and advice. Nobody likes splashing out more money than they need to but many people such as yourself come on the forum having a little whinge about things like this and many of them get fed up and in the end they invest in a router and come back and say it is one of the best things they have ever done.

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

Initially I thought so too. I do have similar experience and a similar complex intranet arrangement with professional NAS, managed switches, APs etc and I don't mind investing in routers.
However it seems completely unnecessary. The SH3 is the entry point for my intranet and should just distribute a few IPs through DHCP and otherwise just pass through the internet signal to the V6 box and the powerline adapters. Now I have:
1. to deal with complicated Router settings for IP TV
2. another ugly electrical device plus wiring in my living room running 24/7
3. another source of errors and signal degradation

Completely unnecessary in my opinion and that's what I meant with not ideal...

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

not really, I find 3rd party router gui's quite easy to use and definitely more so than the shub where they screw things up by stripping out features. You have got to remember though, once it is setup that is it, you'll never have to touch it again

:confused:

I don't think you understand what a router does and why a proper one would be beneficial to you

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

Yes/No. I had two RT-AC66U in bridge mode in my previous house connecting the TV and equipment to the BT modem which I had to buy off ebay to bypass the also crappy BT build-in router. I lost many hours of quality live time setting this up by trial and error adjustments of undocumented settings.

OK, then give me a few examples in which way my RT-AC66U with WiFi radio switched off is superior to the build-in SH3 router given that speeds and stability were perfect for a month? Which fantastic new effects can I expect, 4D internet??

If Virgin Media decides to ship a consumer device with an integrated router, I expect it to have such basic functionality as a reliable DHCP server for a few dozens of devices and an optimized pass through of signal to its own IP TV devices. If that breaks down upon connection to a powerline adapter then this sucks and again I am wasting time troubleshooting, calling VM helplines, writing here etc only because most probably the cheapest of the cheapest materials were used to make 1c of profit.

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

nope, it can't handle it

nope

you are absolutely correct hence my initial post and why I said if you buy a proper router you set it up, everything works perfectly, you never have to touch it again and if your connection drops you know it is the wan connection and nothing else. As an example with shub1, the wifi didn't work at all despite it being called a "superhub" and advertising it as having "unbeatable" wifi and if you connected a console to it (can't remember whether it was the xbox one or ps3) it would lock up. VM klnew it was an issue for well over a year yet instead of admitting it and fixing it they would let customers ring up, dick about on the phone with remote support and try changing the wifi settings on the shub and the network adapter settings on your client. You are new to the forum so you many not be familiar with all the stories and hundreds of posts that I have read over the years but despite dodgy untested firmware which VM bang out on every version of the shub, there are other issues with the hardware as well (puma chipset) which you will see in another thread in this section.

I may have jumped the gun a bit but I can't write an essay explaining the history of the shub every time somebody has a problem. The shub is crap and if you want to do anything more than connect a couple of pc's for internet access then buy a proper router. If you don't, then your free router and do what you can with it and don't complain. I don't understand why you would bother to invest in Asus routers and managed switches but not buy a proper router to manage your network for you.

Incidentally, if you have got an Asus router why isn't the shub in modem mode and you use the Asus router as your proper router?

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

At least I was able to watch 4k TV a couple of days ago. Haven't tried with the Asus router yet.

You are absolutely right, however: 1. I do have proper routers 2. I do not want to place a router between the SH3 and the powerline adapters for the reasons outlined above 3. Everything worked perfectly fine until yesterday.

I am complaining about VM but I am posting here hoping that anybody has a solution how to get SH3+powerline adapters to work in a stable way. But OK, if it is common knowledge that these provider modem/router combinations are useless, then I might be wasting my time.

That is exactly what I did and everything runs like before the SH3 stopped working. I guess I will have to stick to this set up and hope for an unexpected firmware update. Cheers!

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

It's worth noting that from other reports you can leave the SH3 in router mode, and just have any old network switch between the powerline adapter and the SH3.

It seems to just be a compatibility issue between the two, anything between them avoids it. You could use your asus router as a switch if you needed, turning off dhcp etc, if you want to use the SH3 as the router for whatever reason.

---------- Post added at 17:34 ---------- Previous post was at 17:30 ----------

Just to add, it also might be worth pushing the powerline adapter manufacturer on this.

A compatibility issue between the SH3 and the powerline adapter will affect a tiny proportion of VM customers - those who use an incompatible adapter connected directly to the SH3 - and doesn't render the VM connection useless (other devices still work sir, so our broadband connection is working) so VM likely won't care.

VM have 4.6m cable customers in the UK, and there are about 27m households in the UK, so a little under 20% of the powerline adapter companies UK market can't use their product at all.

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

You are still using the shub in router mode though. What I am saying is that if you put the shub in modem mode and attach one of your Asus routers to it as the primary router then all your problems will be solved permanently. All you are looking at is a 50cm patch cable to connect the router to port 1 on the shub and an additional free power socket for the router.

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

That's a good idea and I might try this at one point. Thanks!

Actually it seems to affect multiple manufacturers including Netgear and TP-Link. But if this can be solved with a simple firmware update, then yes why not.

It does interrupt broadband and intranet and I hope that this is not the official point of view of VM.

No, when did I say that? I am obviously not using two routers simultaneously. I have set the SH3 to modem mode and the Asus router as router and it works fine, as did the SH3 until yesterday. I am looking at an unnecessary additional device with ethernet and power cables and its own problems. Or do you think Asus routers are free of errors? Actually I have had a lot of router related connections issues when I have used the RT-AC66U in bridge mode over the last years. Several firmware updates have improved stability though.
Anyhow, I got your point and I will see how it goes. Thanks!

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

VM honestly couldn't give a ****. This will never be fixed because as far as they are concerned it isn't an issue. How many customers use ip web cams? To put things in perspective for you, you had this abysmal wifi I told you about on the shub1 and game console crashing the shub which are just two of many many issues over the years and each time it takes them months/over a year to fix. Going by rtho's maths above, you would think that VM would want to get console connectivity issues fixed asap because it would probably affect more than 50% of their customer base but nope.

The message to take away from all of this is that if you have got an issue involving the shub you can guarantee it isn't going to be fixed (the next version of the shub normally comes out first with a new set of problems) and if you can do something to mitigate the problem yourself (like buy a proper router) then you should.

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

:confused::confused::confused:

I have no idea what you've done, I've re-read your posts numerous times and your network setup is not completely clear. It's contradictory at best.

I understand your argument against an extra device is annoying - it's yet-another-thing, another plug socket used, but beyond that it's a far better system than the SH3 alone.

You keep saying you're using the Asus in "Bridge" mode. You even said you used two of them "in bridged mode". If this is the case, that's why you're having so many network issues - you don't need bridged mode. IF you've got a single asus router, put it in ROUTER mode, put the SH3 in modem mode and all of your configuration woes will disappear. Your Asus is far more capable as a router than the SH3 is. All those "IP tv settings" you had issues with? They'll just work. And there's no such thing as "signal degradation" here.

If you want to use a second Asus router in the mix (Which is unnecessary, but whatever), don't put that in bridged mode either. Either connect it directly via ethernet (or even powerlines) to the first Asus and put it in Access Point mode or if you want it to boost your wireless signal wirelessly, put it in repeater mode. Don't use bridge mode unless you know what you're doing.

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

thanks Kush, I wanted to say the same thing and gave up.

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

Well I said that
So if you quote me out of context it seems awkward agreed. Almost like fake news ;)

Sorry for not being clear (English is not my mother tongue), but I have never used the SH3 in a bridge configuration. This is/was my setup:

(Until one month ago (this was just used as an example in a previous post): BT [modem] -> 2x RT-AC66U [bridge mode] -> TV; worked OK)
For one month and until yesterday: SH3 [router mode, WiFi off] -> TP-Link 1200 -> rest of house; worked OK, then broke like OP described
As a workaround since then: SH3 [modem mode] -> RT-AC66U [router mode, WiFi off] -> TP-Link 1200 -> rest of house; works OK but suboptimal setup imho

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

What is "rest of house"?

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

why is it a sub-optimal setup. The latency between the shub and the router is practically non-existent. Tbh having a standalone router at the edge of the network (with everything else behind it) connected to a modem/isp is excellent network design. Putting another device in the chain isn't in any way slowing down the link. You are actually increasing the efficiency of your network by replacing a sub-par router with a high performance one. As an example, both myself and Kush have got Asus routers connected to shubs in modem mode and every week we have a gaming night with a few friends. Kush lives a good 130 miles from me yet his ping is 9ms when I host a game for 4 of us. I can guarantee it wouldn't be 9ms if both of our shubs were in router mode.

I am not arguing but if you had replied to my first post by saying that you have already got an Asus router and you have put the shub in modem mode and everything is now working ok we would have saved ourselves a lot of time. You shouldn't have any problems going forward and the shub will now actually perform better in modem mode for you than it would have done in router mode. The only thing you will need to concern yourself with in the future is router upgrades when you either need to accommodate faster wifi speeds of wan to lan throughput but that isn't going to be for a while.

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

The further setup is then:

... [SH3 on floor 1] -> TP-Link 1200 [floor 0] -> RT-AC66U [AP mode, WiFi on] -> several items such as TV 2, Receiver...

... [SH3 on floor 1] -> TP-Link 1200 [floor 3] -> RT-AC66U [AP mode, WiFi on] -> Cisco SG 200-08 (managed switch) -> several items such as workstation, NAS etc

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

So am I reading this right and you have, in fact, got three Asus routers?

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

I think he meant he bought two asus routers to use as access points and was using the shub3 as the router with his powerline adapters directly connected to the shub. He is mardy because he has now had to take one of the Asus routers away as an access point in whatever room and now use it as the primary router next to the shub in modem mode. If he wants to maintain his network configuration he is going to have to buy a new router to use as primary router so he can continue to use the two Asus' as access points in other rooms in the house.

Re: Superhub 3 and Netgear Powerline problem
 

I traverse the floors in my house by being in modem mode, AC68U router, then a string of WiFi enabled Powerline adapters around the house. I use Devolo AV1200 which have dual band WiFi.