Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/283499...-manslaughter/

This sort of stuff leave a sour taste in my mouth. Whether Police, member of the public or Security staff.

This security guard chases a Thief/ Shoplifter, they fall over and the bottles that the thief has nicked smash and he ends up dying.
The security guard is then nicked on suspicion of Manslaughter.

Sad its sad story, but the guard was doing his job. And now he could end up in prison because of shoplifter. The law is an ass.

Re: The Law must be on the side of the Secruity Staff
 

If I were you Arthur I'd wait until further details emerge before jumping to conclusions.

Re: The Law must be on the side of the Secruity Staff
 

Actually he probably wasn't "just doing his job", no matter how this turns out he's there to be a deterrent not a policeman and has no more powers of arrest than you or I, therefore it's questionable whether the crime committed was indictable and of course he now has to live with this man's death for the rest of his life.

Sensible advice

Re: The Law must be on the side of the Secruity Staff
 

The word "tackle" is used several times in the article, once within inverted commas.

Do did he "tackle" as in "deal with", or "tackle" in the rugby sense?

Re: The Law must be on the side of the Secruity Staff
 

http://www.inbrief.co.uk/employees/b...ecurity-guard/

So whilst he has no more powers he does in fact have some

Overzealousness on the part of security guard? Possibly

Deserving of a manslaughter charge? I'd have to say no on the basis that if the shoplifter hadn't shoplifted then of course this situation wouldn't have occurred

Reminds me of the police not chasing stolen mopeds/motorbikes due to the theives not wearing crash helmets.

Re: The Law must be on the side of the Secruity Staff
 

You should know what a minefield citizens arrest is from your previous job and I don't think he deserves a manslaughter charge either, he's already going to be carrying this around for life.

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

Well from this quote it does indeed sound like the guard tackled him to the ground.

So if he hadn't caused the man to hit the deck would he still be here? But of course if he hadn't run or shoplifted none of it would have happened at all.

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

Would the police not have possibly done the same/similar? Miscreant makes off not stopping so gets tackled down and concealed item causes miscreant harm. If miscreant had tripped and fallen causing harm because we was being chased?

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

Reminds me of an incident when I worked at Cheshire Oaks outlet. The guards chased a shoplifter one day and he ran across the motorway M53 which runs at the rear. The guy was knocked over but he survived. After that incident the guards were told that if shoplifters were heading towards the motorway, then they were not to give chase. The shoplifters soon got wind of that policy and they all went that way.

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

A world of confusion and grey areas. No one can really make a judgement then to be fair because it's impossible to predict where this will go.

Inexperienced of course. The maximum experience he could have is 2 years.

I often speak with an Aegis trainer and we both share the same conclusion though but it's still not the right answer. It's a factor though. It's whether it was absolutely necessary to take him to the ground. Bare in mind both Aegis and the SIA themselves deem grounding someone as dangerous and an absolute last resort that shouldn't be carried out without the relevant training. That's not the law though, the law is about proving that any force used was justifiable. If he holds the DS Licence he'd have taken part in mandatory Physical Intervention training. If its a standard SG Licence then he's had no in house training. So basically the SIA themselves will go against him.

There's going to be so many factors in this for what's an accident. Doesn't work that way in a court though.

Simply don't know how this will go. I know which way it should go, we all do.

Similar story to the above. When I had my first role as an SD or theft prevention, we had a policy of never chasing thieves. Merely tag them with spray, radio the council CCTV lads and the police would take care of it. Quite a few years ago for me though.

Doors and Close protection work is an entirely different field though.

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

What a good post. I was an SIA trainer myself a while back for my sins

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

Just so many differing factors here that go for or against and you pointed out another earlier, 'Deterrent'. This is what I've always considered a Security Guard to be, this is a key reason they don't do mandatory physical intervention training when earning the certificate for the licence. Now they also mentioned in the article he was a 'Doorman' so without them actually confirming it, we'll say he could possess a DS Licence which means he would've participated in Physical Intervention, during which you'd note you never deliver floor restraints or takedown maneuvers because the SIA will not approve it. The entire course for both DS and SG are identical too bar the PI stage. The common theme of the course is justifiable force and whether anything you do is reasonable. Aegis are one of a few SIA Approved training providers that cover higher levels of physical intervention which include ground restraints and takedowns and even they stress that anything ground related is an absolute no go unless you have no other choice. So it's again a question if you think a bottle of booze is worth tackling someone. Obviously from an outside perspective people just go, ''He didn't know he had a glass bottle on him'' '' He never meant it'' That's something we know anyway, the point for anyone unaware of industry policy is the same as above, a ground restraint or anything that involves taking anyone to the ground is considered the riskiest and most dangerous on the SIA's own risk scale. People might think it's stupid but it's usually for reasons like this incident, or the ones where mighty doorman stuck his knee on the back of someones neck and pinned him to the ground.

Again though, I can't even come to any conclusion from this, it's 50/50 if you ask me. Feel for the guy but my input goes as far as a security perspective and not a lawyer. Just one of those adrenaline rush moments that clouded his judgement? inexperience is a factor given he could've only held a licence for under 3 years, that's assuming he turns 21 this year. (18 to possess licence) Then again as pointed out, he's a 20 year old lad, he has this on his plate for the rest of his days. There's no winner from all of this regardless of which way it goes.

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

I used to drum it into security candidates not to get carried away, no good ever comes of it, the older ones seemed to take on board that they weren't paid enough to go rolling around on the floor with herberts whereas the younger ones seemed more inclined to listen to legal ramifications and the fact that generally the client is never happy if security causes them any extra work or any inconvenience, that said it is easy to get caught up in the moment, I remember years ago I was key holding and literally bumped into the burglars coming out the front door, there was a long pause where we all just stared at each other until they bolted and stupidly I ran after them, obviously being fat and old I never caught them and when I was reflecting on just how stupid a thing it was to do I realised I would've just as easily ran the other way, them running caused me to chase them.

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

Probably but the police are allowed to chase ,catch and detain suspects the security guard is very limited in what he is allowed to do ,as TD said he is there as a deterrent not a law enforcer

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

He just has the same powers as Jo Public. It all comes down to the term "reasonable"

Did the security guard act reasonably.

Did he have firm grounds to suspect the shoplifter.

Did he use reasonable force to detain him.

Personally, I would think that a rugby style tackle to stop and detain somebody was reasonable. If he tackled then gave him a few punches and kicks then that is unreasonable.

The police have no option but to arrest the guy, I would hope he would be ok in court.

Only sticky point is, if the security guard knew the guy had a bottle on his person, he does have a duty of care to think about the guys safety before he tackles him. That is what might be an issue, but it would be very harsh.

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

He just has the same powers as Jo Public. It all comes down to the term "reasonable"

Did the security guard act reasonably.

Did he have firm grounds to suspect the shoplifter.
One would suspect he had witnessed or been informed.

Did he use reasonable force to detain him.
Not in my opinion if he ideed "rugby tackled him.

Personally, I would think that a rugby style tackle to stop and detain somebody was reasonable. If he tackled then gave him a few punches and kicks then that is unreasonable.
As a "rugby tackle" can lead to injury to one or both then it is not "reasonable force".

The police have no option but to arrest the guy, I would hope he would be ok in court.

Only sticky point is, if the security guard knew the guy had a bottle on his person, he does have a duty of care to think about the guys safety before he tackles him. That is what might be an issue, but it would be very harsh. That is most likely the issue. Do I think a manslaughter charge is warrented? No. Perhaps the lesser charge of death by misadventure.

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

This is a long time ago but iirc it doesn't come down to reasonable, first and foremost it comes down to whether the crime committed is indictable and low level theft such as this isn't, it's dealt with by magistrates, I hope for the guards sake the guy that died was banned from the shop or has a long criminal record or that'll be more questions he'll have to answer or answer for. As I said earlier citizens arrest is a minefield just waiting to go of in your face.

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

In a game of rugby, a rugby tackle is considered 'reasonable force' to stop the progress of the ball carrier. This theft is a circumstance with the worst, and unpredictable, outcome but the security guard took action to prevent the escape of a thief after a crime.

The security guard will anguish over this incident for the rest of his life but, if it was the initial tackle that caused the death, the thief invited it.

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

He's got the fact it's not an indictable offence going against him though, as well as the SIA that will likely go against him too for using anything that went to the floor as a restraint. If no indictable offence has been committed and there's no imminent risk to the safety of yourself or others then using what's considered the most dangerous intervention is going to do you absolutely no favors. We know why he's done it, it's bollocks but as TD said, there's going to be a quite a bit to answer for. It's all governing body nonsense with the SIA, then there's the law of course.

This case will be used for something that's been pushed for a while now and lead to a few or/and scenario's for reform within SIA training.

The first will be the merger of the Security Guard and Door Supervision Licence so that everyone will be made to complete Physical Intervention training/or the introduction of Physical Intervention to the Security Guard module, the latter being a pointless one as they're the same course without PI for the SG one.

This second one has been discussed with Aegis trainers and brought up to SIA rep's on numerous occasions, this case will now be used to push further that Physical Intervention requirements and assessments should last more than a single day. As it stands, the PI module consists of 13 different interventions. (restraints and conflict management) They believe it should be extended to 3 days minimum and if need be, a week. They'd like to see more added to the interventions to cover exactly this, ground work because it's amazing how many doormen will still stick their knee in someones neck whilst the poor sods face down, that's a serious red flag in a world of Health and safety red tape. I say poor sod but he could be a right bellend, you still shouldn't be doing it though, there's far safer ways to restrain someone that are just as effective whilst reducing the risk ten fold. Why don't the SIA teach you ground restraints properly then? As above, The SIA's stance is they don't want you taking anyone to the floor.

Another is for Licence holders to complete one day of upskilling per year (refresher)

The last isn't SIA related, Aegis want certain employers, mostly door supervision and protection services to offer better work to people Aegis certified, obviously promoting themselves there but of course promoting better training all round.

I can't sit and say, yeah I'd never have done that because blah blah, it's not that simple, anything can happen in the heat of the moment.

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

Ok. So where would I stand if, say, I had witnessed the theft and tackled the bloke with the same outcome? Are we just going to let thieves walk away with freebies that we all work hard to afford?

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

you sound like a vigilante out for justice but who's justice ?

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

Be the same outcome. That Licence is just a requirement to work within the security industry. He's no different from yourself. The difference in a court case is you could argue you've never been subject the same training and thus could plead you didn't know any better.

I know it's all BS, and backwards, its a no win scenario regardless of what any court says.

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

You do know I'm Steven Seagull don't you? :)

It is indeed BS. Next theft I witness I'll perhaps ask if he needs any help to load his boot with the loot. What the flip is going on?!?!:mad:

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

Under Common Law, as a citizen. We have the power to arrest someone. If he has committed a crime. Its called Citizens Arrest.

As long as you use 'reasonable force' IF anyone steals an item, and you run after that person. They fall over, and then as result of that. The person becomes deceased.

This is the tricky side of the law.

I feel for the security guard. He was doing his job. I know some stores that ALLOW the shoplifter to steal, as the employer has told them that they are just a deterrent - that's all.

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

Yes, this happened to papa smurf at a recent visit to Victoria's Secret ;)

Re: Security guard, 20, is arrested after Asda shoplifter he tackled was killed
 

At present everyone here is making assumptions on the information so far released.

We do not know the full circumstanses nor the situation.

Was the security guard doing his job or did he overstep his authority. None of us know at present.

Coming to a conclusion in an absence of the full facts is a hiding to nothing.

Citizens arrest is also a minefield governed by what is deemed as "Reasonable" force.