Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

http://news.sky.com/story/southern-r...k-out-10694097

Firstly, let me say that yes, l do agree with strikes. BUT, l blame Mr Grayling, and the Government for NOT getting involved with discussion with the Rail Unions.

Its no good Grayling telling the workers, to get back to work. The rail Unions are protecting there members and the commuters

I had to think that when they were on strike, Commuters said the service was that poor. They didn't know they were on strike. That's how bad the service is.

The Government must take this service back. And tell the Main company to get knotted

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

It's quite simple, if trains without guards are dangerous show me the stats where the current trains without guards have more accidents.

Driver only trains have been operating for 30 years, if the're not safe how do they keep going. The London underground has no guards but thousands and thousands of people use it
daily.

JF

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

If they unions "gave in", what would be the situation in say, a years time? Where there are currently guards, there would still be guards. So what is the problem? They keep saying "keep the guards on the train", well they're staying there anyway.

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

One thing you can be certain of is that it's not about wages... :rolleyes:

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

Or helping the passengers.:mad:

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

My suggestion is to bash their heads together lock in a room until all parties om and mot let them out until they have a full agreement.

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

And what should that agreement say? They've already said that they intend to keep guards on the train until 2021.

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

And then get rid of them

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

They should tell the staff that are on strike that they should reapply for their jobs and it will be at the rail companies terms, if they choose not to reapply they will be stacked.

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

And that's why I support the workers and their right to withhold labour every time

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

And if there's an accident Ken, sack the managers? All about money from both sides, passenger safety is way down the list.

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

Staff saftey isn't way up Ken's list, he wants them stacked if they don't agree to be rode roughshod over, still at least they'll look neat and tidy

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

I was reading in Private Eye that the government is liable for the compensation for passengers per the terms of the agreement with the franchise :spin:. As with most of these deals the profits go to the company and their shareholders and the liabilities are met by the taxpayer. It's a massive scam.

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

It's about the unions trying to bring down a legitemate government as they have lost a creditable opposition party. Expect much more of this nonesense all the while Labour languish under Corbyn.

Trains without guards operating doors run on over 30% of the rail network. If it was unsafe why would that be allowed?

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

Funniest thing I have read for weeks. Thank you!

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

Oh look someone with nothing that wants to share it with the world lol :D

Typical Socialist :walk: :p:

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

Ok, I will run with it, please show me how the Rail Union is "trying to bring down the Government"?

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Rail Union = HYDRA?

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

There is no other rational explanation!

For once, I do partially agree with Arthur. Although it is the responsibility of the company to sort this out, and they are dreadfully inept, the Government should have put them on notice some time ago that if they continued to fail to meet their contractual obligations, the contract would be terminated and re-tendered, and the company would be barred from submitting a tender bid for any railway contract for 10 years.

As far as the company's employment strategy is concerned, why on earth have they continued to pay people who refuse to work normally? They should have terminated existing contracts in line with the termination clause and offered new ones with revised working practice obligations. Anyone not accepting would simply have no contract on the expiry of the existing contract and would no longer be an employee of Southern.

It's very straight forward actually, and I have put such arrangements in place during my previous employment and they worked like a dream. Of course, if the company threatened to change terms and conditions for the worse if they were forced to take that path, they could achieve a return to work a lot quicker and with a lot less hassle.

Of course, this can only work with good management that has a genuine desire to discuss issues with its employees and their representatives with a view to getting an agreement.

And before anyone starts banging on about employee rights, remember that this is a total non-issue. The current dispute is about working practices that are all up and running safely elsewhere. The unions are playing a game but they are doing their members no favours. Their irresponsible attitude will lead to a further tightening of trade union legislation because the unions are using strike action as a means of wearing down a government they don't like.

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

Sounds very familiar to anyone who remembers the 1970's...

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

I don't believe it is that simple .Yes we have had driver only trains for years now and the unions are simply using that reason to try to protect their members jobs .Southern have promised that they will keep 2 people on the trains so no jobs will go but after 2020 they can not promise that and the trains will become driver only under the new franchise so those conductors will disappear.The RMT re doing their job ,just not very effectively .
The other point to consider is that the tax payer is paying compensation for lost fares and for season ticket holders because of the weird franchise agreement that GTR(the parent company owning Southern) have.So yes absolutely the government should have stepped in and layed down the law ages ago ,long before it ever got to this stage but they won't because the government want all the franchises to use driver only trains as a means to curtail the power of the unions .

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

So the unions are striking over what might happen in 5 or more years time(ie 2021)?

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

The absurdity of the deal given to Southern should be a bigger story. What's the point of the franchise system, or privatisation in general, if all the risks and fines are put on the taxpayer and the profits to the franchise? It's just free money to private companies from the government. Remember there was that terrible deal given to First group for the west coast(?) mainline where they were promising cheaper tickets and better services as well as more money to the government which was obviously dodgy to anyone looking at it but it only got stopped after Virgin threatened to take it court and the government 'found their mistake'. :rolleyes:

Corrupt as hell.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

As someone who gets caught up in this mess as a commuter everyday, here is my 2p.

Ultimately this is all about pay. As soon as conductors are no longer responsible for the safe operation of services, their is a cut in their salary. They have, however, been guaranteed jobs and the same pay for at least four years I think.

They aren't trying to bring down the Government (this would have probably happened with Labour) - they are trying to protect their own jobs. I don't necessarily agree with their approach, but I'm sure how I feel similarly aggrieved in their position. The unions are thinking of the long game, because once those four years are up, it is very likely that that conductors and on-board supervisors will be removed from some services. I don't believe there is a desire to remove them completely.

And then beyond that, we are looking at full automation. It is about to happen on the Thameslink line between St Pancras and Blackfriars following the introduction of new rolling stock on those routes.

It's already in place on the DLR, Northern, Victoria, Central and Jubilee lines on the underground.

The added complication is that this franchise has been run as a management contract due to revenue uncertainties as a result of the Thameslink Programme, due to be completed in 2018 and the Brighton Mainline upgrade works at the end of decade. The Government is taking the financial risk and simply paying Govia to run the system to some agreed KPIs. I assume the Government have taken this an opportunity to force through a modernisation process, using Govia as the face of the changes.

Updated following Damien's post: This was the only way to let the franchise given the risks. It would be not palatable for Conservative government to effectively nationalise a franchise unless they were left with no other choice. But agree, the terms of this particular arrangement don't all seem to be above board given the reluctance to release the full details.

I don't really support the arguments of the unions (aside from an even shoddier service for mobility impaired/disabled passengers potentially) because they are full on contradictions. I read that the leader of ASLEF not more than four years ago said that driver operated doors were perfectly safe on Thameslink - so why is Southern so different?

The Government/Govia aren't doing themselves any favours easier. The franchise has been a shambles for much longer than the current situation and simply blaming the striking union members for the terrible service doesn't really wash.

Rail commuters might like this website: http://www.mytrainjourney.co.uk/

And Mr Grayling needs to grow a pair. It's laughable saying it politicised by the unions when the Government are affectively the paymaster in this. It's kind of unavoidable.

Sacking staff really isn't the answer as it takes at least a year to become fully trained. It's not as it you can suddenly employ a load of new people to fill in.

This still has some time to run, but ultimately the Government are going to win out. It's going to get to the point where staff simply cannot afford to keep striking. Until then, things are going to continue to be a complete and utter shambles.

*removes geeky transport consultancy hat*

---------- Post added at 18:26 ---------- Previous post was at 18:19 ----------

As they see it, if they don't do it now, it'll be too late.

I'd like to reiterate I don't agree/disagree with this approach :)

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

How would striking in 5 years time be too late? Other than there being a Labour government at that time.

If it's about the guards, why are the drivers striking?

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Because accepting the current terms is a slippery slope. They'll be in worse bargain position at a later date. They want to put a stop a stop to 'modernisation' in it's current form, rightly or wrongly.

And presumably a show of solidarity.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

If it's "current terms", then they've already accepted them. We're not talking about something that MIGHT happen next week or even next year.

Unions could call an endless series of strikes purely based upon "what ifs".

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

I would like to make a couple of points.

The customers themselves has said that one day, when they were told by a reporter told them that there was a strike on.

The customer replied ' the service is that bad, they didn't know that'
This goes to show how bad the company runs it...

The RMT and ASLEF, are there to protect the worker. Like me, l am in the PCS. and they have saved my bacon a few times.

This is why they are there. The rail company are treating the workforce like crap. And it really make me laugh that Grayling still has a job.

This dispute has been going on for months, and Grayling has done nothing. Its just as bad that Corbyn, the **** hasn't got into it

This dispute is over safety, NOT MONEY.

I strongly believe that the Underground, British Railways should ALL have guards.

What happens on a tube train if the driver has a heart attack, or becomes unwell. The train stops in tunnel - what about the passengers. All the safety equipment kicks in and passengers cannot get off the train. And remember the live current is still running, and until such time the Emergency button is on.

Remember the other day, a plane was taking off. And the pilot had a heart attack. The co pilot took the plane back to the departure gate.

That cannot happen on a tube, or ground level train.

Yes, there are emergency measures on trains. BUT we are talking abut several minutes, maybe ten /15 minutes before help arrives.

Buses are different. If the driver becomes ill. He just stops and help is there.

ITS SAFETY.

Get rid of the company. And get a company in that thinks of the public

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

Absolutely agree ,the whole franchise system is a corrupt mess and the sooner it's stopped the better

---------- Post added at 20:48 ---------- Previous post was at 20:42 ----------

In this case the unions are calling the strikes because they see it as inevitable that guards are on the way out which means less membership and less power if your the cynical type ,if not then they are trying to protect the jobs of members .Whichever way you see it the government have a lot to answer for because as far as i am concerned they are pulling the strings with GTR

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

There is NOTHING that Southern can agree to. 1) They've already agreed to keep them on. 2) After 2021 they don't get a say anyway. 3) 5 years time is hardly "on the way out". 4) As they're actually planning to have MORE people on board, are any jobs actually at risk?

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Nothing to do with safety, old bean. Where is the evidence to back up this claim?

The railways are already running on the same basis elsewhere in the country, including the busy underground, with no issues. It's just an excuse for industrial action.

You may believe that all trains should have guards. However, no reduction of staff on the trains has been proposed, has it?

Personally, I have nothing against the unions, they do have a vital role in protecting employees. However some unions are still fighting the old battles of the 80s and need to grow up. If they refuse to modernise their approach, they will see the legislation on industrial action tightening still further. How can that be a good thing for the unions? If they don't want legislative change to clip their wings still further, they need to stop playing politics and instead concentrate on the legitimate interests of protecting services and employees.

One thing we can agree on is that both the company and the Government could have been much more proactive than they have been. The dispute should have been resolved well before now, notwithstanding the intransigence and hostility of the ASLEF union.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Linky

Some people can't stand democracy. :rolleyes:

(Sorry, starred word is in the linked piece)

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

democracy means getting your own way post brexit ;)

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

I wonder how many didn't vote (including all those that didn't vote assumed to be non strikers) for the strike(s)? ;)

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

In general, I agree. Southern and South Eastern should BOTH lose their franchises. Both have failed spectacularly to deal with situations they should have been able to deal with.

I personally was sad when Chris Grayling shot down the idea of TFL taking the London Metro routes, saying he doesn't see the point as we have know way of knowing if they will be any better. Ignoring the fact that while they have their faults, TFL have a proven track (no pun intended) record of massively improving failing railway lines they have taken over.

That said, railway companies all over the world (including SouthEastern) operate driver only trains perfectly safely. I am not convinced that the Unions are doing this for passenger safety.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

With driverless cars and lorries on the horizon, driverless trains are sure to come. Some Metros are already driverless. A damaging dispute like this will hasten the day IMO.

List of automated systems

More extensive than I knew.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

I have read in the past that the signalling systems TFL are currently installing are able to support fully driverless trains. However, the law in this country apparently requires a member of staff to be present on any train that goes underground to help passengers in emergencies. The DLR already operates this way, but the staff person (or Train Captain as they call them) performs other functions as well, such as random ticket checks and can optionally drive the train. Unless the law changes, TFL are likely to go down this route for the other tube lines.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Indeed, just for clarity there's a bozo in the other camp, who may well have been driving the whole thing

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.t...android-h3g-gb

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

I would point out that the dispute is between the rail unions and the company, not the Government.

However, the Government should have put Southern on notice that their contract would be terminated and re-tendered if they didn't get their acts together.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

How is it not about the government when you have a senior civil servant picking a fight with the union and threatening to destroy them and kick anyone out of 'his' industry who won't just roll over and be rode roughshod over

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

The government take the ticket sale receipts from Southern and the tax payer is paying the compensation to the season ticket holders ,it's also the government who awarded Southern the ridiculously dubious franchise .So yes it is most definitely the government.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

https://www.indy100.com/article/ian-...n-rail-7482866

I think this sums up how I feel about this issue.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Yes he summed it up perfectly as even though l don't live in that area most of my family do and they are totally disgusted like many others with Southern Rail who are a poor excuse for a competent railway company and the government over this.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Old Boy.
Sorry my friend you are totally wrong.
If it is nothing to do with the Government, then why is Chris Grayling involved. He is the biggest pain in the arse going.

The Government should strip both companies of the franchise. The customers are being treated disgracefully. And next year prises will rise. And they are NOT stupid as the companies know that passengers will pay it.

Grayling should get the Unions round the table today, and get this strike called off.

He should take a leaf out of the Airports personnel.
Baggage handlers and pilots were going on strike. This was quickly resolved. So what cannot this dispute be solved/

This Country should look at China - l believe. There railways are conducted by computer, they run on time, are clean. And if they break down. They are taken out of service and replaced straight away by another train. So the service is NOT effected.

This strike is NOT over money. Its over safety.

If you check. Two years ago Boris Johnson wanted TFL to run trains on lines so that EACH station would have a train in it.
The Unions stopped this on the grounds of safety.

The Underground and Upper ground trains are run on very old tracks. And the tunnels are Victorian. So you MUST have a second official on trains.

IF you travel on the new trains on the London Underground now. ALL carriages are now totally walk through.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

What a strange thing to say.

As I said, the dispute is about the RMT's refusal to accept Southern's requirement that drivers on trains should be responsible for closing the doors before departure. That is a normal employer/employee issue and nothing to do with the Government.

What is the Government's responsibility is making sure that the contracts it has awarded for the provision of services work satisfactorily. It was self evident many months ago that it wasn't, and so the Government should have taken action against the company before now.

I find it difficult to understand why you are supporting the union in this dispute. It's a strike over nothing and will achieve nothing. They really want a fight with the Government. If it comes to that, they will lose, but they don't have the sense to realise that.

Re: Southern Rail Strike
 

You can't compare the Tube and overground rail, even on the surface stations.

I have done safety studies on LU and NR Stations and they are very different in some respects.

not withstanding the differences I'm sure the Southern region can be made safe with DOO. The trains will still be staffed by two train crew.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Arthur, my dear chap, this is not about safety. The unions have absolutely no case and I have not seen anything at all that supports their protest that the new arrangement would be a safety risk. It's not as if the same system that is being proposed doesn't operate without issues elsewhere on our railways!

Interesting that you think that because trains operate over old tracks and the tunnels are Victorian, this justifies the case for having the guards closing the doors! Very strange bit of logic there.

Interesting also that you wax lyrical about China. Do you know what they would do with striking employees?

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

I support anyone's right to withdraw their labour, what don't you understand about that and who does wilkinson work for when he made those comments, is it the government, I keep hearing about that union bozo and his speech, that's been all over the news but the crush the unions and boot out anyone who isn't a doormat seems to have slipped under the radar.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Yes, but isn't it strange that there are NO TALKS being arranged. Yes, it may be Xmas. But if l was in charge. I would sit BTH parties round the tables until it was sorted.

I would strip the two franchise of there licence.

and yes support any strike that puts the safety of its workers and passengers first. This is why you pay Union fees like me

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

This strike is not about safety.:rolleyes:

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

If its NOT about saferty, why are they out on strike. I believe they are on strike as the Gova want to get rid of Guards.

Guards provide safety elemants and they open the doors. And make sure they look after the passenger

Its called safety. Yes, there are many trains, that have drivers only. But this is why the Government doesn't want to get involved. So that Gova can run rings round the Union. This wont happen.

IF, the RMT and ASLEF pulled all there workforce out. You cannot run the railways. Its that simple

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

I know that you're not interested in FACTS but please read this:

FACTS

The drivers are being used by the union chiefs to bash the Tory's.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

The government have stated that all franchises will have DOO trains written into them.The strikes are about lost membership when the guards are phased out when new franchises are awarded.The unions may have more sympathy if they where honest about the reasons.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

The role of guards will change to be more customer orientated and it doesn't happen until 2021. No job losses are involved.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

So you support the unions calling people out on strike for spurious reasons?

Again, whatever politicians may be saying out of frustration, the issue is between the unions and the employer, and the Government is concerned with its contract with Southern. The Government certainly shouldn't get embroiled with negotiations with the unions!

---------- Post added at 17:51 ---------- Previous post was at 17:50 ----------

Not if safety is a non-issue, Arthur.

---------- Post added at 17:54 ---------- Previous post was at 17:51 ----------

They are on strike because the unions are politically motivated.

Safety is being put forward as the excuse, but they have not made their case to justify this as an issue.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

My god lots of points here.
1) It has nothing to do with bashing the Tories. If the Tories had there way, we would have ANY foreign company running the railways by being given the contract on the cheap. And forget abut any British company, who could do a better job

2) The Unions are there to PROTECT there members. And they have been told by Gova, that there will be no loss of jobs. Now tell me where have we heard that before

3) Yes, the RMT and ASLEF do bring there workers out on sometimes 'trivial matters'. Just think how many times have passengers been told that there is NO restaurant or heating on the train. The passengers are treated very badly by the companies concerned. And yet prices will go up again.

4) IF, Grayling, or Gova for that matter had any thought for the passenger. Why haven't they sat down with the Unions involved - such as the Airlines - who were threatened with strike action.

I have bashed the Tories so many times that l have lost count. If they had there way, there wouldn't be any Unions in this country. But Unions are there to protect the workers.

And l still remember what a reporter was told by a passenger recently on TV.

The reporter said to a woman. Do you know that drivers had gone on strike. The woman replied ' I didn't notice, as the service is that bad' Now that shows you what the passengers think

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

So they've gone on strike because the business has said that there will be no job losses and that there would even be an increase in staff?:confused: Must be a first.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

I support the right of all workers to withdraw their labour and I have enough respect for them to trust them to know what's in their interests. So you don't like democracy then and don't support the basic principles of it?

---------- Post added at 00:08 ---------- Previous post was at 00:06 ----------

Much easier to get rid of people when their job isn't saftey related and mandated to

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

There will be job losses ,the guards are losing their jobs to start with ,they will be given new titles and duties along with new contracts and most likely a lesser pay scale .If you think that introducing DOO trains doesn't involve cutting jobs then you are wrong ,the whole idea of DOO trains is to cut costs by cutting manpower

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

And your evidence is?

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

because Southerns franchise will be up and any new operator will introduce driver only trains as per the franchise agreements ,the unions are taking now because of future job losses which are inevitable,they are simply using H&S as an excuse ,it really isn't rocket science you know

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Anything that could happen, won't until MORE THAN 4 YEARS TIME. The law on "Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981" would also limit things. Any Franchise agreement would only stipulate what the Franchisee COULD do, not MUST. If they're not needed why should they be employed?

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

It's the unions reason for being to protect workers jobs ,it doesn't matter if the losses are tomorrow or 4 years time ,the unions are against DOO trains on principle and have every right to fight against them .I'm sure that if you where a guard you be very worried by now for your job

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

IIRC weren't the unions fiercely opposed to not having a fireman in the cab of a diesel engine as well as a driver?

Progress makes many jobs redundant. Drawing office anybody? They simply don't exist anymore.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Their argument therefore HAS NOTHING TO WITH THEIR CURRENT EMPLOYERS.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Their argument has nothing to do with H&S either and you can shout as much as you like but it won't change the fact that the union has a duty to protect their workers rights and jobs.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Minor flaw in your argument, their rights and jobs are NOT at risk, and NOT with their current employer. The current employer can do absolutely nothing about what MIGHT happen in FOUR YEARS TIME.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Your completely missing the point ,the current employer has sod all to do with anything .The unions are objecting to DOO trains in general and using H&S as a reason .The guards job is going to be made redundant to cut costs ,whether that is now or in 4 yrs time is irrelevant .From the unions perspective it is far better to start the fight now than in 2020

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

If everyone went on strike because of what might happen in the future, no-one would work at all.

Jobs come and go and no-one has a job for life. If it was left to people with these arguments running the country, we would not make any progress at all.

Some people just thrive on disruption and making the lives of decent hard working people more difficult.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

In general, I actually agree with you. Someone needs to he held accountable for this, and to take responsibility for this. At the moment, the Unions are unlikely to be massively inconvenienced if this strike goes on. The railway company are not going to be massively inconvenienced if the strike goes on. The only people losing out are the commuters (who, despite what the government say, seem to have little or no say in how the railways are run) and the taxpayer (who will pay the compensation). The government are, of course, saying it's not our problem and offering the taxpayer's money to their friends, the railway companies.

Last time the trains in the South East got this bad, the operator (Connex) was fired. Now, our government is seemingly doing the opposite, having said that TFL will not be allowed to take the Metro routes. They are too busy rewarding the rail companies for buggering things up to punish them.
The ironic thing is you stating this strike is not over money, it's over safety immediately after citing China as a shining example of an efficiently run, safe, railway. For one thing, if the Chinese railway is as computerised as you say, it is unlikely to have guards, and may not have drivers. For another, the Chinese safety regulations are so bad, it is quite a regular occurance that people are killed in their major building projects. Their lack of safety regulations, and lack of rules about worker's rights are what enables them to sell stuff so cheaply.

In Central London, I suspect you'd find that the trains run at pretty much this frequency now.

No, you don't. The law requires that any train that runs underground (this also applies on the DLR, most of which is less than 30 years old, and all of which is less than 40 years old) has at least one member of staff aboard to help with evacuations in tunnels. Which actually does have some logic to it, as if the train is evacuated in a tunnel, the passengers are going to be walking along, in the dark, a few centimetres away from a rail carrying at least 750Kv so really should have someone who is trained with them.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Actually two rails one at +330V DC and the other at -330V DC. Still electric chair power though.:erm:

FYI the rails are "floating" so a short from one to ground (Cast Iron Tunnel linings) does not stop the system from running trains in that section.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Point about the Chines railway system being run by computer. I watched a great doc on this.

Everything is controlled by a central control system - which is manned, by several people.
The trains RUN ON TIME, ARE CLEAN and its not expensive

Our trains do not run n time, some are dirty. And its very expensive to travel.

Several years ago Stupid Boris wanted to run a train in EACH station, which is highly dangerous. The Unions put a stop to that.

The Unions are there for a reason to protect the workforce. That's why l pay Union fees.

When a company takes over a contract. The Employees go to that new company. As part of the employment law. However, that company can change a certain department. As part of 'there' streamlining the company' and l should know that. With the job l work for. It happened there.

So this crap about Gova, saying there will be NO job losses. is rubbish

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Oh dear, here we go again:

Linky

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Sadly the current rail system as it stands is totally unfit for purpose and l can only see it getting worse instead of improving.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Our railway need to be nationalised, if people lose money on it tough.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

How will that help? Apart from the government rolling over and playing patticake to the unions.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Well the current franchise system cannot go on as it is as it has been a total unmitigated downright disaster unless you think otherwise heero.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

In other words when the guard calls in sick, the train cannot run at all. It is the unions causing any bad service.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Opinion polls for many years now have consistently revealed that 60% of the public want the railways nationalised rather then have the current chaotic mess we currently have.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

And how would that change anything? It wasn't exactly problem free before. The SAME staff will be there.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Transport for London works well under public ownership so l don't see why we cannot do the same with our current chaotic privatised railway system.

Also just because Nationalisation was poorly managed in the past does not mean we cannot adopt this model going forward as the key is to learn from past mistakes and build a better model going forward.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

And how is it different?
And the unions are against it. Make those drivers redundant, as they are not needed where they are.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

So you are quite happy with our railways as they are then? as l am talking about the wider problem's of our current privatised railways unless you don't think these widespread problems with it don't exist?.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

And the same union dinosaurs that are the problem in trying to modernise working practices. I'm not claiming that the current franchise system is fault free but nationalisation will achieve nothing.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38994965

It goes on and on and on..

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

Cycle perhaps?

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

You might want to look up Connex (particularly South Eastern). Believe me (I am a long term commuter) when I say that reliability on the South Eastern franchise improved almost exponentially within a few weeks after Connex was fired and the franchise re-nationalised.

As far as I can tell, they didn't even do anything particularly revolutionary. They re-organised their administration so that the platform information systems were operated from the same building as the Signals (Connex moved the staff managing there platform information systems to a building apparently at the other end of Kent because it was cheaper, then asked the staff to stay in touch via email and phone). They also re-jigged the timetables a little to free up vehicles and space for busier lines.

The problem with the system as it is is simple. Blame. I know several people who work in various positions in the the Railways, and they find that because everything has been divided up, when something goes wrong, the contractors spend a lot of time (and money) trying to apportion blame to someone else rather than fix the problem.

Another example of where effectively nationalising a railway line has worked. London Overground and TFL Rail. Both consist of failing and very unreliable line. Both now run by TFL and effectively part of the underground system, and are running a *lot* more reliably than they ever did, simply because TFL invested in them, rather than shareholders.

Personally, I am under no illusions as to the reliability of the system under British Rail (it went through phases where it was brilliant, and phases where it was terrible), and I don't really care whether the railways are run by a public company/authority or a private company. What I do care about is that the service is relatively cheap (ours is not) and relatively reliable (and at the moment, ours is not).

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

This is why I'll never get a job in London, for me which is 50 mins by train.

Re: Southern rail strike talks to be held on second day of commuter misery
 

The same people would have drawn up the timetable, before and after. Timetable changes do not happen overnight or in a few weeks, and may well have been planned beforehand.