Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-37265752

Not sure how I feel about this one.

Whilst I understand the NHS is straining to provide services I'm not sure that it should be actively refusing services. In the article it does mention that people can be given surgery if they lose 10% of the weight or if they can prove they have not smoked for eight weeks.

If you were to target the obese and smokers (of which I am both) surely you should also be targeting the likes of those who go and get drunk of their faces and also those who engage in extreme sports

Hell, why not target those who use cycles or motorcycles?

Not sure on the legality of the entire situation. Hopefully it wont happen

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

As a fit healthy none smoker I agree with this. Nothing makes less sense to me than seeing a smoker cough their lungs up then light a cigarette, or seeing a grossly obese person stuffing their face with junk food.

I know an obese person who claims he cannot not afford to eat healthy or join a gym, I pointed out a iceberg lettuce is 34p, 12 tomatoes 90p, a hand of bananas £1, 1kilo of fresh carrots 50p, 8 apples £1, a turkey leg £2.50, a whole chicken £4, a water melon £2 a big bag of rolled oats 70p etc etc.

He had no answer lol. For the price of a junk food meal of around £5 you get a lot of fresh fruit. An a weeks worth of "smokes" buys some nice healthy food. Walking 2 miles a day is free.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Based on.....?

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

From 2005
2008
Nothing new. Anyone would think that everything only started in 2010.:rolleyes:

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Some who are obese actually don't stuff their faces as there is more then one way in which people get obese l can guarantee you.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Regardless of how long it's been going on, is it justifiable?

Hell, lets not treat people over a certain age (70?) because lets face it, they're going to die soon..... right ?

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Yes you get obese by being calorie positive, eating more calories than you burn. No illness creates fat from nothing and makes you obese.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Rubbish as there are some underlying medical conditions that contribute to weight gain and obesity and also there are some medicines that contribute to significant weight gain as well so l guess these people must be stuffing their faces then?

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

I work a lot, I can find the time to go for walks, bike rides everyday.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Must be nice !!!
Everyone obviously has the same lifestyle as you? because lets face it, if you can do it, so can everyone else, yes?

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Are you saying everyone can do what I can?

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Thats what you implied

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

No, I said I work a lot and I go for walks and bike rides. You implied anyone working long hours cannot also take exercise. You can do a lot in your lunch break,

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

We both made implications.

Can you? You're again making dangerous assumptions. Not everyone has a fixed lunchtime at which they can go for a run. People have things to do such as dentist or doctors appointments. daily errands etc.

I'd like to know what your definition of 'long hours' is?

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Dangerous? Suggesting you can do things in a lunch break? Lolol. You seem like a excuse maker, you're over weight and you smoke too much and it's your fault. But you don't want to hear that, you don't want to eat healthy or stop smoking, you want it to be someone else's fault. Grow up!

---------- Post added at 19:06 ---------- Previous post was at 19:02 ----------

Go to asda buy 3 chickens for £10 3 lettuces 34p each, 2 packs of fresh tomatoes £1.60, 3 cucumbers £1.50, I pack of fresh peppers 87p, 1 bag of rolled Scottish oats £1, 15 mixed weight free range eggs £2,

Eat like that for 3 weeks

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

You appear to lack a basic grasp of comprehension of the English language so allow me to assist.

The assumptions that you are making are dangerous. Not the fact that exercising is dangerous (although it could be argued that it is in certain forms)

I'm quite aware that it's my choice to be both obese and to also smoke. I'm also quite aware that due to the fact I smoke I also pay significantly more tax to the government than a non smoker (if we were both to be on the same salary)

I also pay for private medical insurance (as part of my compensation package from my employer) for both myself and my partner.

The point I was making which you have so spectacularly missed (and in the process made yourself look rather foolish) is that in a free at point of service that we have in the NHS is that you cannot discriminate against a group of people placing a load on the system whilst in the same breath continue to treat those who also place a significant load on services.


Now, go and give your head a shake. Come back and lets try to have an adult discussion without you throwing your rattle out of your pram.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Oh an a loaf of bread,

You'll have porridge for breakfast, 2 boiled/scrambled eggs on toast for lunch, chicken salad for tea. All ate before 6pm then eat nothing after, try to walk where ever you can instead of taxi/bus/car. You'll feel better, look better, lose weight

An keep your personal insults to yourself,

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

to take this in a separate direction,

3 chickens for £10 shown and proved to be bred in poor conditions just meeting minimal animal health standards, pumped full of antibiotics...

Ah cheap fruit and veg, e.g tomatoes artificially ripened with Acetelyne gas.


Very healthy sounding.......

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Ohh i forgot cigarettes (which you smoke daily) are produced with your health and wellbeing in mind. That is hilarious , lolol

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

The old adage

'Never argue with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience'

Seems entirely appropriate here

---------- Post added at 19:25 ---------- Previous post was at 19:22 ----------

Show me anywhere in my past posts I have professed that cigarettes are healthy?

Yes, you may be able to buy three chickens for ten pounds, and tomatoes for ninety pence.

But at what cost to the animals & the workers who produce them? Or does that not count so long as you're all right ?

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

At what cost to people who make cigarettes? Toxic working environments, exposed to cancerous chemicals daily. Will you stop buying tabaco products? Knowing those workers in tabaco factory's suffer DNA damage? Or is it ok because you smoke?

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

I've not said anywhere that it's OK nor is the production of tobacco products is safe.

Should we stop using coal? gold? platinum? batteries?

You are professing that the chicken, salad, veg etc. are healthy. I'm trying to point out to you that not only are they not as nutritionally healthy as you think they are (admittedly they are healthier than pre packed meals & fast food) but also the demands from people for cheap food lead to further issues.

The only way is to either A) grow your own produce. Or B) Buy from a local organic supplier that you can verify both the treatment and conditions of animals, vegetables and workers alike.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

But yet you'll still buy tabaco products that harm/kill those that produce them?

You've said you're obese and a smoker, you've also advised against eating chicken and salad whilst you personally think smoking tabaco is ok. I still advise to people to eat lean meats and plenty of fruit and vegetables.

You stay obese and continue smoking, I will continue to eat as well as I can afford and exercise when I can. Let's see who has a better quality of life.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

It's often not surgeons that are denying the ops, it's the anaesthetists who find it difficult to calculate safe doses.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

What relevance does this have?

Do you buy petrol/diesel? Do you by gold/silver/platinum? Do you buy batteries? Have you ever had a mercury amalgam filling?

---------- Post added at 19:57 ---------- Previous post was at 19:54 ----------

But yet private health care can manage? A little odd?

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

I believe that smokers should pay for the increased cost of their healthcare- and they do.

The vast majority of the costs of a packet of cigarettes is made up of tax.

Of this tax, 20% is equivalent to the extra costs of treating smoking related illnesses.

The other 80% is pure profit for the Government to spend as it chooses.

If this is the way we are going though, why not charge those injured whilst playing sport, running or getting drunk etc?

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Precisely the same question I raised, yet it strangely remains unanswered.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

It's a fact most people with private health care are also more health aware and less likely to smoke , drink too much , be over weight.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Evidence to back up that claim?

Yup, none.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Evidence a chicken salad is unhealthy?

Yup, none.

You're over weight and you smoke, and your on benefits. I make no judgement.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

I haven't advised against eating chicken and salad at all, I've said that they're much healthier than pre pack meals or fast food.

What I said is that your three chickens for £10 and cheap fruit and veg are not necessarily as healthy as you think they are.

I've at no point said that smoking is OK.

I'd love to know what you define as 'A better quality of life' but seeing as you have answered none of the other questions I've asked you I won't hold out much hope on this being answered either.

Stop trying to suggest I'm saying things that I'm not. All you're doing is making yourself look a bigger fool than you already are.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

And the backtracking begins!!

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

I'm on benefits ? are you on glue or something? Please tell me why you think I'm on benefits? I'm not by the way

Oh....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/shop...t-chicken.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripening

Carbide, you remember Bopal?

---------- Post added at 20:13 ---------- Previous post was at 20:11 ----------

You're related to Arthur aren't you? You have to be?

Show me where and how I've backtracked. Feel free to quote

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Are you denying you're on benefits?

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Yes, i receive no state benefits whatsoever. I work full time as an IT manager responsible for EMEA & APAC regions.

No children, and my fiancee works full time

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Absolute claptrap but you know that anyway...

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

None of the above is true and we all know it.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Do you? OK, prove it ?

You were entertaining at first. But now you're really making yourself look silly.

Thanks for the 'discussion'

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

You lost me when you started lying, it's a shame you lie to impress others. You're fine as you are.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Where have I lied?

I'd be very very very careful about what you post next.

i'm quite happy to provide proof of what I've said to one of the moderators who can verify to you if required.

You my friend are guilty of libel.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

L O L :juggle:


The truth always gets a good reaction mate lol Well done :D

---------- Post added at 20:42 ---------- Previous post was at 20:41 ----------

Oh Please lolzzz :):)

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

http://www.urban75.org/info/libel.html

Do you think no one has ever been in bother for what they have written on a forum? There are forums that have been taken down for libellous posts against members.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

I'm not sure that BMI is that effective at measuring obesity ,quite a few sports people would be classed as obese according to their BMI.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

I'm not your friend and you are a liar, now libel me or do shut up!

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Yip that is correct

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

This type of initiative by the NHS runs along the lines of not giving new liver, kidney ,hearts and lungs to alcoholics and drug addicts,the limited resources are better used elswhere rather than waste them on people who will not change their lifestyle

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

There is a away of measuring bmi using height and waist size that is a very good indicator of body fat.

If you have a small waist/belly and are heavier than average for your height it's probably muscle. If you have a large waist/belly and are heavier than average for your height you're probably fat.

Of course physical activity and diet is also a concern when measuring bmi!

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

generally speaking simply looking at the person and talking about lifestyle is the best indicator imo

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Can you define a lot because I've done between 300 and 330 hours a month since a colleague and friend died in April and I'm fit for nothing at the end of each day let alone a bike ride

Calm down, the obvious answer is how can anyone on benefits with no children afford to smoke and be obese

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Get used to the NHS doing this, as the pot gets less and more people use it, something's going to give like it or not.

Not saying I agree with it, but it is basic maths isn't it.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

What's the relevance of your friend/colleague dying? Or do you think you're the only person to have lost a friend/colleague/loved one so it should be mentioned when talking about walking 2 miles? An you working 11 hours a day does not fit your posting history!!

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

i think his point is that going out for runs and walks after work is very much dependant on your job and family life,it's not as simple as you make out

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Do you deliberately misinterprete people's posts, the relevance is I'm covering the dead man's work and it fits entirely with my posting history if I post from work, as I am now

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

It is as simple as I make out,

---------- Post added at 22:02 ---------- Previous post was at 21:59 ----------


Why are you working 77hours plus a week? What is the name of the company that employs you? You lose a worker for whatever reason you replace them, why hasn't your company sought the services of a temp? What kind of company increases demand on a colleague at a time of loss? This does not make sense.

As far as I'm aware we do not live in Corbyns Britian , we live in a free market!

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Because a temp can't do my job, they lack the skills and the company don't force me to do anything I'm not happy to do for between 12 and 14 hours a day, so it's not as simple as you make it.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

So no temp in the country can do your job? Lolol. Some temps have 20+ years experience in there fields but choose to temp because they've made enough money to no longer need to work regular hours.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Really ?? i work a very physically demanding job in construction ,i am self employed,i suffer from severe Rheumatoid Arthritis and when i finish work i do not have the strength left to go out running ,i am not a smoker and nor am i obese or overweight in any way .It really isn't as simple as you are making out

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

So you get plenty of physical excerise at work? Well one enjoy your evening relaxing time, you deserve it!

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Lol lol lol there isn't even an agency that covers my job and no one will have made enough money out of it to retire let alone temp. I appreciate your concern about my terms and conditions but don't let it bother you, someone will turn up sooner or later.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

From what you've said about your job, there are plenty of temps/consultants agency's ready and willing to provide a service. What's the name of your company?

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

But what about those who don't get exercise at work but still suffer some physical illness like mine ,they may be stuck behind a desk and gain weight that way .
I agree that the NHS should limit it's resources to those that can and will help themselves but to simply set criteria based on something as vague as BMI is completely wrong imo

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Go swimming before work, park 1 mile away from work, ride to work, get off the bus a stop early. Solutions not problems!

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

For some that may work but certainly not everyone ,it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Lol you be talking outta you posterior pal.
Just another troll!
Genetics (may not be an illness but proven) thats 1
Other health issues that have a knock-on effect that in turn leads to weight gain.
Need I go on?
EVERYONE has the right to treatment EVERYONE!

But, (here it is, that caveat of a but) if someone refuses afer initial treatment to improve their health, cut down/stop smoking, added exercise, eat healthier then in certain curcumstances trearment could be restricted, but not stopped. You cant sentence someone to death because they are a smoker or overweight.

---------- Post added at 06:33 ---------- Previous post was at 06:22 ----------

Not as clear cut as you may think (sorry to jump in on your conversation with another)
I work for a small company who a year ago employed 8 people on the shop floor & 4 in the office. We have lost 2 from the floor & 1 from the office.
Our workload has increased by about 10-15% over the last 12 months, this extra work has been spread out over the remaining staff. Whilst 1 of the jobs could have been covered by agency the other 2 couldnt. Its not as easy as you seem to think it is.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

I'll expand on that if you don't mind .

Underactive thyroid

Diabetes treatment

Steroid treatment

Cushing’s syndrome

Polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS)

Fluid retention

I would expect that health professionals would make judgements based on lifestyle and health history and not simply a persons BMI as the link suggested

@s james ,as you can see it really isn't as simple as you make out .It is possible to look at some one and say yes they are fat but without looking at their health history and lifestyle it is impossible to judge why they are over weight and to simply suggest that swimming ,jogging or getting off a bus a stop early is ridiculous

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

I think the real point is that once you start picking out one group how long is it before another group gets added to the list..and then another as funding shrinks across the NHS as a whole.Who next? Alcoholics? The elderly and infirm.The disabled?UVF treatments?

Not treating people as a cost cutting exercise is not ultimately going to save money.It will just all be pushed onto social care which is already overstretched as witnessed by bed blocking..

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

I think the whole issue of NHS funding needs addressing .We(the public) need to realise that funding something like the NHS in a modern world with ever increasing tech and new more costly procedures cannot be done with less tax .If a separate tax needs to be introduced or a new funding method then so be it

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

This ridiculous policy is to be reviewed:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-37265752

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

I think we shouldn't treat foreigners, OAP's, druggies, Fat people, policemen, binmen, zoo keepers and poets.

and we should give all the tax payers a big fat refund.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

So a fat person who is a tax payer gets a refund ?

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

So much arguing back and forth here but I do think a general idea of delaying treatment in some cases because of lifestyle is appropriate. Sometimes that simple lifestyle change can be part of a wider treatment, sometimes not making that change can counter other treatment regimes.

But like all things like this the judgement needs to be done at point of treatment not by a wide ranging diktat. It's easy to say deny treatment to a particular group but it should be up to the treating team to work with the patient to achieve this. So you may require an obese person to lose weight first, it's often safer that way and if the treatment is for a condition caused or aggravated by obesity it seems logical to make that a condition for the treatment. Contrawise if the treatment will lead to the patient finding it easier to be less obese then a different outcome may be indicated.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

I agree, it's a whole different ball game if it's for sound medical reasons as opposed to a unilateral cost cutting excercise towards systematically chosen groups.

---------- Post added at 15:56 ---------- Previous post was at 15:55 ----------

Totally agree, I have long advocated this approach as opposed to hiding the cost within tax and National Insurance.

The electorate have consistently voted for Governments that promise both services and tax cuts.

This was often achieved through the Tory (then renamed and continued by Labour) idea of involving the private sector.

This is much more costly in the long term, but gives politicians the pretence in the short term that we can have services for nothing, for the selfish benefit of their own political careers.

As we can see around the UK the chickens are now coming home to roost.

I think that a seperate identified tax for the NHS would be a positive move.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

Correct.

Get trading standards involved if they play silly buggers with the refunds.

Re: Obese people and smokers to be refused surgery (now in review)
 

You appear to have a wonderfully simplistic view of life. While I don't know what TheDaddy does for a living, there are jobs that are so specialist that it is unlikely you will find temps that can do them. A friend of mine is, on paper, a DBA at an Oil exploration company. In practise, that is only a part of his job and his skill set is so specialised that when his company closed their UK office and centralised their operations in Houston, they PAID for him to move to the States, and arranged his green card for him rather than just employ someone else. They went to all that expense despite the fact that Houston is effectively the Oil capital of the US, so they probably do have a lot of skill people there already.

However, I digress. I would suggest you provide proof of your assertion about mrmistoffelees because if you don't provide proof, what you said is libel.

Finally, life isn't as simple as the if you exercise you are healthy and if you don't, you aren't mantra you appear to be pushing. Generally, people who exercise are more healthy, but know I people who exercised regularly (one even played Rugby at club level, and was teetotal) who died of heart attacks in their 20s. The Rugby player even died in the middle of a game. Equally, I know fat people who have lived into their 80s and 90s despite doing, eating and drinking all the wrong things. Equally, I know fat people who've died. There is a large degree of genetics involved in whether you live or die.

---------- Post added at 12:14 ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 ----------

Even those healthy pursuits.. Will marathon runners be refused the leg and knee surgery they frequently end up needing because they've worn out joints? Will footballers be refused surgery for the various problems they end up having? I'm not talking Professional footballers here, I'm talking at club level. The blokes who do a normal job during the day then spend their weekends and evenings playing football.

Finally, what about those with dangerous jobs? Do they get refused treatment because they may injure themselves at work? A builder that needs knee surgery because of 20 years of going up and down ladders? What about a Sales Rep who spends 90% of his time on the road, then crashes the car on his day off? Does he get Surgery? After all, he is on the road for several hours a day, a crash is inevitable at some point.